Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 November 5

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November 5

Poem

"I do not care to go afar where stranger skies or people are."

This poem is from WW1 and I used to hear it at least once a week. Now I can't remember more that the 1st line and pieces therein. Does anyone know the rest of the poem, the author or where I can find it.--Beader 03:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Googling on "stranger skies" yielded the poem "The Oxford Thrushes" by American Henry van Dyke, 1917. One stanza goes

Ah, far away, 'neath stranger skies

Full many a son of Oxford lies,

And whispers from his warrior grave,

"I died to keep the faith you gave."

Your fragment might be from a parody of this—a soldier's answer to the sentiment of the poem. Just a guess, sorry. --Milkbreath 11:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I checked the New York Times from 1917 to 1918 for this, but no dice. Also, you might have better luck asking about this on the Humanities desk. --Milkbreath 12:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It could be a parody. Also included are "fields where poppies grew" & "bloody rain". I will try googling those lines. Thanks.--65.19.50.37 23:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

EVERYBODY WANG CHUNG TONIGHT!

Can you tell me what a Wang Chung is? --124.254.77.148 03:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a British new wave band. See Wang Chung (band). MrRedact 03:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Could it not be a genital complaint? Lemon martini 13:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

WEST INDIES CRICKET BOARD

I shall be sincerely grateful to you if you please let me know the names of the member countries of the 'WEST INDIES CRICKET BOARD'.

Regards Nemai Majoomdar, India, 5th Oct. 2007. nmnm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.198.49 (talk) 04:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• Per http://www.windiescricket.com/, the members are: Barbados, Guyana, Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago, Windward Islands (Dominica, Grenada. St. Lucia, and St. Vincent & the Grenadines), and Leeward Islands (Anguilla, Antigua, Nevis, Montserrat, St. Kitts, St. Maarten, British Virgin Islands and the U.S. Virgin Islands). -- Flyguy649 ^talk 05:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Our article West Indies Cricket Board lists the following member organisations:

• Barbados Cricket Association (BCA)
• Guyana Cricket Board (GCB)
• Jamaica Cricket Association (JCA)
• Leewards Islands Cricket Association (LICA); itself composed of:
  • Anguilla Cricket Association
  • Antigua and Barbuda Cricket Association (also just called the Antigua Cricket Association)
  • British Virgin Islands Cricket Association
  • Nevis Cricket Association (for the island of Nevis alone)
  • Montserrat Cricket Association
  • St. Kitts Cricket Association (for the island of St. Kitts alone),
  • St. Maarten Cricket Association
  • United States Virgin Islands Cricket Association
• Trinidad & Tobago Cricket Board (TTCB)
• Windward Islands Cricket Board of Control (WICBC); itself composed of:
  • Dominica Cricket Association
  • Grenada Cricket Association
  • St. Lucia Cricket Association
  • St. Vincent & the Grenadines Cricket Association

All but Nevis are in List of Countries - so I guess the answer is:

Barbados, Guyana, Jamaica, Anguilla, Antigua, British Virgin Islands, Montserrat, St. Kitts, St. Maarten, United States Virgin Islands, Trinidad & Tobago, Dominica, Grenada, St. Lucia and St. Vincent.

SteveBaker 05:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Steve, the country is St Kitts and Nevis. :) FiggyBee 07:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

A song on every iPod

I know someone is going to say that this belongs on the Entertainment desk, so to pre-empt criticism: I thought as it's a mixture of technology and entertainment and also has come human interest (so humanities) I'd put it here. Also it has more chance of eliciting interesting responses here.

Someone told me recently that there is a song that is on every iPod in existence. I find this extremely unlikely but am curious. Is there a song so popular that all (or even most) people who own mp3 players have it on theirs? Does it make any difference if it's actually an iPod or will any mp3 player have a specific song on it?

I've Googled and Asked and have a trawl through the iPod and mp3 player articles on Wikipedia and can't find a trace of my colleague's assertion. Any ideas?

Thanks guys! 212.240.35.42 12:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone is pulling your leg. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

No, he does think it's true. But maybe someone was pulling his leg. Or he imagined reading it somewhere (that's happened to me). 212.240.35.42 14:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

John Cage's 4′33″, perhaps ?? Gandalf61 14:28, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I've got the remixed, extended version on mine! :P ---- WebHamster 20:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Haha, indeed. shoy (^words _words) 14:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, they were going to install The Funniest Joke in the World on every iPod, but they were afraid it might kill the (repeat) sales.

Atlant 17:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't have an iPod so I can't check - but is it possible that Apple have some pre-installed jingle or sign-on tune or something? Even so, the claim clearly isn't true because quite a few people run Linux on their iPods and whatever was pre-installed by Apple would presumably have been blown away by that. SteveBaker 19:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Orig. Research Warning! Mine never came with any music pre-installed. And I haven't heard of any Apple jingle or anything of that nature. Dismas|^(talk) 20:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Original Research is acceptable on the RefDesk. Plasticup ^T/C 20:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers guys. The person who told me this has now admitted he might have imagined it.212.240.35.42 14:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Darn! And you were just that far away from being present at the actual birth of a new and annoying urban legend!  :-) SteveBaker 20:01, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Iran AGAIN

thankyou all for your answer to m question named iran. i would like to know MORE abiut HUMAN RIGHTS in iran,can anyone guide me specifically on more material on the web regarding this. plz reply as early as you can. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.128.4.241 (talk) 12:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Try Amnesty International's page on Iran. Click on the annual reports for a good round-up. --24.147.86.187 15:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Removing smell of mothballs from a cupboard

Can any user please tell me how to remove the smell of mothballs from a cupboard? Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simonschaim (talk • contribs) 14:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Lead granny back to bed from the cupboard? Seriously, airing it out is the only remedy I'm aware of.

Atlant 17:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You should probably try either activated charcoal or one of those refrigerator deodorizers with baking soda in it. One or other of those will get rid of most things. You would of course want to be 100% sure there were no mothballs still inside the cupboard and that you'd removed and washed all of the clothing inside - otherwise the smell will just come back again. SteveBaker 19:26, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You might be able to sequester the aromatics using Cyclodextrin (Febreze), or oxidize them using Ozone. Both of these really only work on the surface, though. It is possible that the only way to get the smell completely out is to oxidize the whole cupboard... by this I mean burn it.  :) --Mdwyer 22:30, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

A shallow dish with a generous helping of coffee grounds left uncovered on it in a smelly place allegedly "absorbs" the bad smells. Not sure about the terminology, but I've had success with the technique. --Dweller 16:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

7.62*51 NATO

This is the opening line of the Overview section of the 7.62 NATO article: "The round itself offers similar ballistic performance in most firearms to the round it replaced in U.S. service, the .30-06 Springfield. While the cartridge itself is shorter, the actual bullet and loadings are about the same (muzzle velocities on the order of 860 m/s (2,800 ft/s) for both). Due to more modern propellants, less volume could be dedicated to holding them in the 7.62x51 cartridge than was needed in the .30-06" Does this mean it is theoretically possible for the 7.62 NATO of today to be more powerful than the 7.62 NATO of the 1950's without actually creating an entirely new round, assuming more modern propellants have been developed since the 7.62NATO was first introduced? --MKnight9989 14:31, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure. I've got no idea as to the exact specifics (how much propellants have improved, how much more the cartridge can tolerate, what sort of engineering margin the guns have), but yeah, there's no fundamental reason you can't raise the muzzle velocity. — Lomn 14:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep. The cartridge spec will give the maximum allowable pressure- but within those limits, there's room for better propellants to give better performance. Also, handloaders will sometime exceed the pressure allowed by spec when they know the ammo will be used only in a gun strong enough for it- but they do this at their own risk. Friday (talk) 18:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Edgar Allen Poe

Hello, after reading a question on www.triviabug.com, I was now searching for more information on the following, which was an answer...The unexplained tradition began in 1949 and has occurred on the author's birthday (January 19) of every year since. In the early hours of the morning on that date, a black-clad figure with a silver-tipped cane enters the Westminster Hall and Burying Ground in Baltimore, Maryland. The individual proceeds to Poe's grave, where he or she raises a cognac toast. Before departing, the Toaster leaves three red roses and a half-bottle of cognac on the grave. The roses are believed to represent Poe, his wife Virginia, and his mother-in-law Maria Clemm, all three of whom are interred at the site. The significance of the cognac itself is unknown. Many of the bottles left behind have been taken and stored by the Edgar Allan Poe Society of Baltimore.

who is this?, or does wiki have an article for more info. Thanks12.191.136.2 15:06, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The person is known as the Poe Toaster, there is some information in that article and also in Death of Edgar Allen Poe. --LarryMac | Talk 15:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and the info you copied from triviabug seems like it was taken directly from the Poe Toaster article. --LarryMac | Talk 17:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Which is OK if (and only if) they gave us credit for it. SteveBaker 19:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

alas, they did not, but such is the internet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.149.242 (talk) 20:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Not to be confused with the not entirely unrelated poetaster. -- JackofOz 23:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Surely if the gentleman in question left a dish of mash instead of roses, that would make him a poetater? Lemon martini 14:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

>>> I wish you had seen the footer as well as the Acknowledgement page in the 'About Us' section before casting aspersions on the site for copying without acknowledging.

pimples

does popping ur pimples leave any marks on your skin? is it bad for u in any way? i heard that more pimples will come out. thanx--Dlo2012 16:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand you can get acne scarring from scratching/picking pimples, but couldn't find a wiki-article on it. Here (http://www.acne-resource.org/acne-articles/age-groups.html) has some info. Also this (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071103183742AArTJb0) is another article on it. ny156uk 18:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

satisfactory length of penis?

What is the satisfactory length of penis in unexcited or excited state for a satisfying sex as for a woman? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.99.19.150 (talk) 18:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

This isn't really much of a ref desk question- different people will have different opinions. If you're concerned, try asking the person who's opinion you care about. See also human penis size for an encyclopedia article on this general topic. Friday (talk) 18:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Length is actually not that important - the female stimulation comes from rubbing and pressing against the walls of the vagina in penis-vaginal sex, so as long as it's not abnormally short, it's girth that matters. It's more satisfying typically if you throw in some clitoral stimulation, so try that if you're worried. Kuronue | Talk 19:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

the foreskin on the mouth of the penis

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis, prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page.

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page. --~~~~

Lanfear's Bane | t 00:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Guy who carved his own house

I remember, a long time ago, seeing a show on the History Channel about a guy who carved his own house out of either stone or some kind of rock and that his house was enormous. The guy was very secrative about it and it happened a while ago like I'm guessing prior to the 1930's. I have no idea where the guy was from or anything. I do remember that some speculated that he had used antigravity devices to move to stone. Does anyone know who I may be talking about?

Coral Castle 204.58.233.6 21:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I remember this and he did show how he did its. Its quite simple. You place a tiny stone under a huge bolder and just rotate it. You can make a line of tiny stones and move a huge stone of many many tones like this. YOu can even set up ways to tip the stones upright etc. He demonstraited moving peices that weighed tonnes with ease.--Dacium 03:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The guff about "antigravity" indicates that we're not talking about the same place, but one example of a home carved out of stone by its owner is the underground "building" called Hole 'n (i.e. in) the Rock, south of Moab, Utah. (Not to be confused with Hole in the Rock (road), also in Utah, or several other similarly named places.) See here. It is now a tourist attraction whose sign, unless it's been repainted lately, has one of the largest spelling errors I've ever seen: the name of the place is rendered as HOLE N''THE ROCK (!) in letters about 12 feet high. --Anonymous, 06:26 UTC, November 6, 2007; links added 23:38, November 7.

Cruise Ship Tips

A friend - no, seriously - has just returned from a 12 day cruise around the western Mediterranean that I and my wife are keen on. But on looking at the small print I am prompted to ask the following question here (the cruise company refuses to answer). The cruise terms etc., offer the chance to pay an up-front £5 per person per day service charge which would normally work out cheaper than the alternative 15% on all purchases whilst on board - I don't have a problem with that. But there is another clause that says that all other purchases (bar bills etc.) will automatically be charged a suggested 15% service charge (in addition to the pre-paid service charge mentioned above), at the cruise end. My friend tried to challenge this as being unfair, given he had already decided on the pre-pay option, but was told in no uncertain terms that the money had already been deducted from his credit card (lodged with the purser at commencement of the cruise) and that their use of the word suggested, did not imply optional. So, the question(s) is, is that not extortion, and legally misrepresentation? And the supplementary question is/are, how much of the service charges imposed find their way into the staff paypackets? And if they do, do they in fact subsidise any minimum wages paid to staff or are they in fact in addition to said minimum wages? And finally, how much does a typical steward, barman, waiter get paid on such cruise ships? Thanks in anticipation.81.145.240.230 21:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

We cannot give legal advice here. You would need to seek external advice about the legal aspects of your question. Even if we could give legal advice, we'd need a lot more information to know which legal jurisdiction (or jurisdictions) is (or are) the relevant one (or ones). -- JackofOz 22:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks like you should send in a letter to Watchdog and let them do the work for you. It sounds like the sort of juicy case they like to get their teeth into. ---- WebHamster 23:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I won't speak of legalitity, but I can speak of cruise-ship practice. I have sailed on four different lines in the past 5 years; all but one had the optional daily charge. In all cases, if a guest went to the desk at the start of the cruise (within the first few days) and asked to have the charge dropped, it was done. In all cases, that option to tip personally was explicitly advertised both before we boarded and in our boarding materials. Your friends' experience strikes me as unusual, as I have found cruise ships to be the last bastion of true customer service. If they went down to complain after the cut-off time for charges, which is usually about 6:00 p.m. on the night before they are to disembark, they might well have had no success in getting the charge removed while on board the ship. On any ship on which I have sailed, your full account is presented at least 24 hours before the cut-off time for you to check; you can make changes in that 24 hours. I have done it, though not over this specific issue.

As for your other questions, on the lines of which I have experience, the breakdown of the tip is carefully explained, to the last percentage point. I have asked bar staff, wait staff and cabin stewards on each line if they actually get the money. Without exception, they said they did. (They love the new system, because many times they still get personal tips for good service. An extra $100.00 per week, per cabin for a cabin steward is not unusual, and this is in addition to the lion's share of the stipulated service charge.) I can't tell you what a typical staff member gets paid; that's a little too direct a question to ask, even on a hypothetical basis. I can tell you that almost all the ship's staff are from countries whose cost of living is considerably below that of the guests on the ships, and for any to whom I have spoken of this, they feel they are well paid in comparison with what they could make at home. Concepts like "minimum wage" don't really apply as where would the basis be, the country of ship's registry, the country from which it sailed, the country of origin of the staff, the country where the cruise line's head office is located? There are exceptions to the countires of origin of crew and staff: the professional crew -captain, purser and the like- tend to come from the country of the ship's head office and some specialties, like recreation, medical and retail, attract North Americans and individuals from Australia, New Zealand and the U.K. I hope that is helpful. I got a bit carried away, I think. Bielle 06:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

"A public search for my father"

Can you find my father? His name is Johnny Anthony Covington I have not seen him sense I was 14 years of age. My name is Michelle Burns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.52.66.163 (talk) 22:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You would be helped best by giving at least a few details... Where you are, where you born, where last heard your father was living etc. etc. It is somewhat unlikely that the guys at wikipedia helpdesk will know the whereabouts of your father but they might have some resources based on your country, region etc. that might point you in the right direction for finding long-lost family. ny156uk 23:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd recommend perusing this editor's contrib list before spending time on this query. ---- WebHamster 00:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

What does that have to do with anything? Kuronue | Talk 01:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a suggestion that an editor thinking of spending time on this request view the contrib list and then make their own mind up as to the veracity of the request. Simple enough really. ---- WebHamster 02:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

What WebHamster is skirting around is that this IP address has been associated with four separate vandalism attacks. However, very often IP addresses are shared between many users and we are frequently warned about making that assumption. I don't think that matters. However, we're definitely going to need more information in order to attack this question. Obvious web searches for related names like "John A. Covington" produces a fairly typical collection of random hits. It would REALLY help to know the nationality and last known country of residence of this guy. Also, what did he do for a living? Any little tidbit of information could be a massive help in narrowing down the search. SteveBaker 03:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

In the off chance that this isn't just subtle vandalism, and you live in the U.S., try Intelius. Google is free, but Intelius is a lot less hit-or-miss. Intellius lists 74 people named John A Covington in the U.S., so knowing age and state would be very helpful in narrowing it down. MrRedact 03:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe our OP does indeed live in the US. Her ISP is registered in New York (which may not mean much beyond that it's a US company). SteveBaker 19:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Identify a coin stamp

While going thru an old envelope of stamps I came across two large red stamps with inscription "COIN STAMP" curved around the emblem of a young female with words "OLD AMERICAN INSURANCE CO." above it. In the lower left corner is a box with "25 cents" in it and on the right corner is a box with "30 days" in it. The stamp is 1-1/2 " wide by 2" high. Any help identifing this would be appreciated.Jldolph 23:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Presuming this (http://www.oaic.com/contact.aspx) is the firm then contacting them asking them if they have any details in their archives about the stamp might help. Also try some stamp-collection forums they may have more specialised knowledge. ny156uk 23:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Foreskin and health

The above question has got me wondering. Some people believe that boys are born in an inherently unhealthy state and they need to have their foreskins removed to make them "whole". I understand the religious basis of circumcision (while choosing to disagree with it); and I understand that some boys and men really do need to be circumcised for specific medical reasons. But the theory that all boys need circumcising - on medical grounds - seems to suppose that nature hasn't done its work properly and we humans have to intervene if we care for the health of our male children. Where and how did it originate? -- JackofOz 23:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it originated with concern over hygiene. Now that nearly everyone in developed countries has access to showers, it's pretty easy to clean under there, but this hasn't always been this case. --Masamage ♫ 03:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

We have an article - History of male circumcision - which gives some background. "Routine" circumcision only happens in a hospital setting, and my own belief is that given the choice between performing a procedure and not performing a procedure, surgeons can't help themselves. FiggyBee 05:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I guess HIV has not yet had the time to select for those born without a foreskin. Its unlikely it will either, since human intervention can equal the selective playing field with a snip. [1] Rockpocket 05:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Erm, no indeed. And there are much more significant risk factors for HIV infection (I'm not circumcised, but I fancy my chances of never contracting HIV...) FiggyBee 05:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah you know what I'd like to see? More widespread female circumcision in the west, exactly the same arguments can be used to justify it, so why not? I think it's amusing that we have reached a fairly universal consensus on that subject, yet for some reason, a lot of people still can't come to the same conclusion when it comes to doodles. I bet more circumcised males wish they weren't then the other way around. Don't argue with me, I'll just hate you. Vespine 06:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Naturally circumcised penises are considered a blessing in South Korea apparently if only for the fact that you don't have to undergo the operation. I will argue with you though Vespine. I would find it hard to compare male circumcision and female circumcision and conclude that the cutting of the foreskin is as bad a practice as removing the clitoris or parts of the labia. Male circumcision doesn't consist in cutting the bell end or "unnecessary" parts of the testicles. Effects on sexual pleasure, hygene and STD are completely different in circumcised men and women. That said of course the decision to undergo circumcision should be taken by the individual potential "circumsee". Considering though that it is a very cultural practice I don't think the indivual would ever really have a free choice about it. As much as scarification it could be considered a barbarous tradition but it seems it is a practice that is here to stay. There must be militant groups against circumcision around that could give a better informed if surely very biased opinion on the matter. Keria 10:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You've got it right, Keria. Male circumcision is way less severe than female, and in the latter case it's a misnomer. The entire purpose of cutting women is to make sexual pleasure impossible so that they won't cheat on their husbands--with the believe that nothing else is powerful enough to stop them. That's absolutely nothing like the justification for male circumcision. --Masamage ♫ 17:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I find these discussions bizarre every time they come up. It would be amazing if circumcision didn't have benefits. Everything has benefits. I remember reading a magazine article about a guy who lost both his legs and walked on prosthetics. He mentioned how easy it was to sleep on an airplane: while everyone else was crammed uncomfortably into their little seats, he just took off his legs and had plenty of room. A guy who formerly had normal hearing mentions that the best thing about total deafness is getting an uninterrupted night's sleep every night.[2] There are benefits to being sterile; many adults even elect to have themselves sterilized. Most people seem to understand that involuntary sterilization of babies or children as a population control measure would raise serious ethical concerns even though it would work. But for some reason many people seem to think that a demonstrated link between circumcision and reduced risk of HIV transmission is sufficient justification for a program of involuntary circumcision.

I also wonder if there really is a causal link between being uncircumcised and increased risk of HIV transmission. I can't think of a plausible mechanism for it. What does seem plausible is that being uncircumcised and practicing poor hygiene increases risk over poor hygiene alone, but that's something very different. Good hygiene has disease-prevention benefits that go way beyond HIV. Surgical amputation as a substitute for improved hygiene would be insane, so I hope that's not what this is really about. -- BenRG 16:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

We evolved the way we did for a reason. Removing that flap of skin without fully understanding it's purpose is insane. I predict that within our lifetimes, male genital mutilation (for that's what it is) will be looked down upon in the same way that the female equivalent is now. It's a bizarre religious stricture and it belongs in the dark ages. SteveBaker 00:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that, Steve, and I agree with your last sentence, BenRG. But with regard to It would be amazing if circumcision didn't have benefits. Everything has benefits - couldn't that argument be used to justify just about any bizarre or grotesque body modification one cares to dream up - such as gouging out your eyes with a teaspoon, or having wild horses rip your skin off? -- JackofOz 01:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't that Ben's point? For as good an argument could be made for amputating someone's legs at birth to prevent them getting gout in later life. As for circumcision being looked down on in our lifetimes, I don't see much outrage at children being given ear piercings. Surely that would rank higher, since it would be much harder to find a justification beyond 'I think it looks good'? Routine 'medical' circumcision might fade in the places it is currently accepted, but I don't see the practice itself dying out as soon as all that. Skittle 03:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The obvious differences being, for Jack's comment, people who justify those "modifications" have made the voluntary choice, an infant doesn't choose to be circumcised, and to skittle's comment is that in most cases when the child is old enough to decide for it self, it can simply remove the piercing and be left relatively in tact, you can't grow a foreskin back... Vespine 01:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)