Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 December 19

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December 19

How to delete the Main Page

I'd like to put the Main Page up for speedy deletion (as a blatant self-reference in the article space), but for some strange reason I can't add a tag to it. Whatever can I do?

This is a sincere question, please don't delete my hard work. 86.141.236.169 (talk) 00:17, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Not possible - only administrators can edit protected pages such as the main page.--Nubile Servant (talk) 00:20, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

But the point you make is fair. Arguably it should be at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Main_Page ... and verily, it turns out that it is. I'm not sure I understand what's happening beneath the surface; which is the real page, which is the alias? --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

It's been done: Read all about it here: [1]. Also see WP:AAAARGH and WP:DDMP for more info. Toodles! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 00:27, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

One of the pillars of Wikipedia is: "Break all rules" (with the subtext: "Break all rules when there is a really good reason") - the front page is utterly unique - we're allowed to break rules for one page out of 2.8 million if it's expedient - and it most certainly IS expedient. So we can happily break the 'avoid self-references' rule - and you stand ZERO chance of getting it deleted on those grounds. Stop the ridiculous Wikilawyering - and help to build an encyclopedia, OK? SteveBaker (talk) 01:41, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

• Being in the wrong namespace does not warrant deletion. The better choice would be to suggest a move, but based on the existing previous discussion I firmly believe such a move would not succeed. - Mgm|^(talk) 12:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Turn off your computer and you delete the page. Ir's only a question of degree, after all the page will still be on the wikipedia disk whatever you do even if you stop it being shown to some other people for a while. It all depends on what you mean by delete. More interestingly if you put in index.html you get the article Webserver directory index rather than the main page! That really is self-reference. And is it really the only notable main page or should it have disambiguation? Dmcq (talk) 12:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The Main Pages of the German and Spanish Wikipedia were recently moved to the Wikipedia-namespace. --94.79.143.154 (talk) 00:27, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Why does Greyhound have a monopoly?

What prevents coach companies other than Greyhound Canada from running a direct route between Toronto and Peterborough, Ontario? NeonMerlin 00:44, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Uh, I don't know that anything does... uh, okay, wait. Bad answer. I'll rephrase that: I'm completely ignorant of the subject, but what leads you to believe that something prevents other coach companies from doing so? I mean, other than the fact that if there already is a direct route between the two cities, it might be very difficult to compete with them, and no company has felt like risking the investment. I believe that's typically the main reason why a certain company takes care of a certain route exclusively. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 01:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Upon further thought: it's also possible that Greyhound gets some kind of a government subsidy for running that route, so a new company without that benefit would have an even harder time competing with them -- but that's certainly a situation that could be rectified once the subsidy agreement expires. That would be an opportunity for other companies to try to get those nice fat government checks. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 01:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

If it was only a matter of a particular route - they probably could compete - but the HUGE thing Greyhound have going for them is that you can go from anywhere to anywhere else - changing busses at their bus stations - with a standard end-to-end ticketting. So it's not a matter of starting up against Greyhound on one route - they'd kill you - you'd have to set up a few hundred bus stations and maybe a thousand busses. That's a hard thing to do. SteveBaker (talk) 01:36, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

But there are other bus companies that do compete with Greyhound with a much smaller range of destinations (in the U.S. at least). It helps to have an unusual business model: Megabus. Rmhermen (talk) 01:46, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

True true. A good example of how one-route bus lines can be a great success is the Chinatown bus from Boston to New York. If you can keep your costs down, it's pretty easy to compete against Greyhound, because they have a lot of overhead and appear to price gouge a bit when they're the only game in town. I'm pretty sure I used to pay around $40 for Greyhound one-way, and the trip took 6-9 hours due to constant stops along the way. Then along came a few upstart, single-route bus companies and shook up the whole scene. Now Greyhound offers semi-regular nonstop Boston-New York service for $15, and has its own bargain bus line to further compete with the Chinatown buses. There've been similar developments between other cities in the northeastern US. The catch is that these routes are extremely heavily trafficked year round; nobody's going to start a Pittsfield-New York bus line, because it simply wouldn't pay off. I suspect Peterborough may be in a similar predicament. Other bus companies do appear to be expanding their business, though, so you may have more options someday soon. --Fullobeans (talk) 06:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

In Alberta we have the Red Arrow between Calgary, Edmonton and Fort McMurray, I'm not even sure if greyhound competes with them on that route... TastyCakes (talk) 16:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I've never taken the bus to Peterborough, but do you sometimes ride a Coach Canada bus? According to that article their headquarters are in Peterborough. Both Coach and Greyhound operate from the Toronto Bus Terminal, so Greyhound doesn't really have a monopoly (other companies operate there too but I can't remember which ones at the moment). But if Greyhound does run the only route to Peterborough, well maybe it's because there is no way, or no need, to improve on what they do. (Aside from the occasional beheading, does anyone ever have any complaints about Greyhound?) Adam Bishop (talk) 09:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Here in New England, Peter Pan Bus Lines does a good amount of business. They're more common than Greyhound. But even so, it gets a lot of that business from a partnership with Greyhound. APL (talk) 14:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused by the nature of the Peter Pan/Greyhound relationship. I was under the impression that Greyhound had bought out Peter Pan but kept the logo etc, but the Wikipedia articles for the respective companies make it sound like they have some independence from one another. At the very least, Peter Pan seems to operate as an auxiliary service for Greyhound, selling its tickets through Greyhound, carrying Greyhound customers, and sometimes staffed by Greyhound personnel.--Fullobeans (talk) 17:59, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Possibly related: here's a bizarre case where a government-subsidized bus company in Ontario managed to shut down a "competing" service where you could arrange over the Web to carpool with others going the same way. Link: [2] --Sean 16:41, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Girls on Cam4

I enjoy watching the girls on Cam4 (I'm not going to link to the site, and it's NSFW of course), but I often wonder if they are really live on cam as they appear to be. It seems at least possible that what we are actually watching is a video, although I can't see why anyone would bother to put up a video of a girl on cam. The website doesn't seem to have much advertising, so it's not as though they are trying to generate traffic. The girls do sometimes chat live to the visitors, but of course that's no proof that they are really on cam at the same time. Every once in a while someone asks a girl to do something like blow him a kiss to prove that it's live. I've never actually seen the girls do something like that which would prove it, but maybe they are too busy taking their clothes off to notice. Anyway, does anyone have any thoughts on this either way? --Bluegrouper (talk) 08:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, actually cam4 seems to be a NSFW version of blogtv (with a considerably more mature audience, of course). I've seen women on cam4 chatting elsewhere and respond to my commands, so absolutely. Though the few I've seen on there (only 1 or 2 really) did seem pretty unresponsive to talking. Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

It could easily be a video that has loops/cuts based on reading what is input. I seem to recall some sort of chicken-man-thing online that did pretty much everything you asked it to and my understanding was that it interperated your text and had pre-recorded the things you'd ask so that would 'launch' that segment of video. I suspect the cams you mention are the same. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

You're talking about The Subservient Chicken. OK, so it might be possible, but why would the Cam4 people bother to do it? --Bluegrouper (talk) 09:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I would imagine that such trickery would be immediately detectable unless someone spent an unrealistically great deal of time on pre-recording. I mean, once the user sees the same clip twice, that's pretty much it for the illusion, and the whole point of something like this is that there's a real person at the other end. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 09:54, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Because it will be infinitely cheaper to hire a model for the day and film a handful of these videos that can then be edited together to be recycled time and again. The cost of that in comparison to having a model acting live for x hours a day is going to be notable. I'd be surprised if the majority of them weren't similar to the subservient chicken (that's the one I meant - cheers), it shouldn't require an amazing bit of programming - you scan input text for things that suggest kiss/smile/wave/take-off item X and you play the relevant scene. If you have spent a bit of time in the editing suite you can have 30 different scenarios for the same action - it shouldn't take long to film, and it shouldn't be that difficult a task to cut together either. Maybe i'm just cynical about the setup though? 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:53, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

But why bother doing it in the first place? As I said in my original question, the site is free and there are no advertisements. FWIW I'm with Magog the Ogre – it seems pretty genuine to me. --Bluegrouper (talk) 10:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Because that way you build a 'program' once that can have the footage of any number of models input in, and it will work as expected. You only pay for new models to film a new series of inter-weavable scenes when you need new content, rather than having to pay models for every single live-session that is being shown.

In compariosn how easy is it to get X models to strip for a non-paying audience, live with enough regular feeds to cover maybe 10 hours per day over a selection of models? It wouldn't be as easy to notice as you'd expect, and it would be cheaper than real-live models. It'd take initial costs to set-up but once done your costs would be much cheaper, whereas the actually-live setup would have consistent costs for regular shows. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:34, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

No ads? Are we talking about the same cam4 here? Because the one I just found from Google has a shitload of ads. Maybe you should link to the site so we can make sure were on the same page Nil Einne (talk) 12:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Information regarding admission in Class V from Class IV

Please inform me about the procedure of admission in clas V from Class IV in the same school under West Bengal Board of Secondary Education. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Susise (talk • contribs) 09:46, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

This is quite a specific inquiry, so you would get the most accurate and complete information only by contacting the West Bengal Board of Secondary Education directly. A partial answer is likely to be inadequate and possibly misleading, thus of little or no value. -- Deborahjay (talk) 20:25, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

St.Paul

Dear sir, i didn't get the perfect answer of my previous question .Can anybody help me to get the perfect answer. The question is - St.paul was arrested and brought in front of three emperor's. what are the names of those emperor's ? Also mention the chapter that is ,in which book the answer is located. THANKYOU. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.253.176 (talk) 11:47, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Paul's arrest is described in Acts 21:17-36. A crowd of Jews from Asia Minor grabbed him and dragged him out of the city, beating him to near death. The Roman authorities, interested in keeping the peace, intervened and stopped the beating. They then arrested Paul for disturbing the peace. The rest of Acts (Chapters 22-28) is about Pauls various trials. Paul is tried before the Sanhedrin in Acts 23, high priest Ananias presided. IN Acts 24, he is transferred to Caeserea, which was the Roman administrative capital, and tried before Felix. He leaves Paul to rot in jail for two years. Paul gets a new trial from Festus in Acts 25. Festus takes him before the local Judean king, Agrippa II since he consideres the matter a Jewish one; and that he can find no charges to file against him. Paul demands that he get a trial in Rome, and thus screws himself (or helps his own ministry, depending on your perspective); both Agrippa and Festus were ready to drop all charges, but never ruled since Paul's appeal meant that they could make no decision. Acts 26 describes the journey to Rome; Paul is escorted by a centurion of the Imperial Regiment named Julius, they are shipwrecked on Malta, and later makes it to Rome, where he lives at least 2 years under house arrest, and wrote at least one epistle (PHilipians). No actual record of what happened to Paul in Rome exists, whether or not he was tried before caesar, or executed, or anything. Some apocryphal accounts say he was eventually released and went on to preach in Iberia, other accounts say that he was executed for treason, still others say he died of natural causes while under house arrest in Rome. Its just that there is no textual evidence in the Bible itself, nor any other source, that reliably reports what happens to Paul after the end of Acts. There ya go, that's the full story of Paul's arrest and trials. You can read Acts 22-28 yourself and decide who meets your criteria. Paul had 4 reported trials, not 3 as you imply, and you can pick (Ananais, Felix, Festus, or Agrippa) which officiant qualifies for your question. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 14:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Since we don't really know when Paul died, maybe he was tried during the Year of the Four Emperors? (I know, probably not.) Adam Bishop (talk) 17:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Not a bad guess. It is likely that Paul's time in Rome would have been during the late 60s - early 70s. Eusebius claims that Paul died at the hands of Nero, who persecuted the Christians during his reign.[3] and several other early sources back this up; however Eusebius writes some 230-240 years after the event. Though we don't have the writing directly, Eusebius cites Origen who predates him by some 80 years, closer, but still some time after the event. Tertullian, writing probably twenty years earlier still, apparently claims that Paul had been beheaded by the sword, which would have been consistant with the execution afforded to Roman Citizens (which Paul, almost unique among the early apostles, was). We have no accounts of his death by anyone who would have been a contemporary of Paul. There is of course Acts of the Apostles (written by Luke), which ends with him under house arrest in Rome for at least 2 years. Clement, who was a contemporary of Paul, writing around 96 AD in his First Epistle to the Corinthians chapter 5, v 9[4] only notes that Paul "had borne his testimony before the rulers, so he departed from the world and went unto the holy place, having been found a notable pattern of patient endurance." So maybe the "rulers" means Nero, and that Paul died after a trial in front of Nero? However, earlier in v 8, notes that Paul had "reached the farthest bounds of the West", perhaps an allusion to a missionary Journey in Iberia (which would BE the farthest bounds of the West), which was of course where Paul was heading after his stop over in Rome, see Romans 15:24, where he clearly indicates this was his plan. So there you go; the only extra-biblical source by someone who may have lived at the same time as Paul indicates that he may have completed the trip to Iberia (though this is unclear); reports of his execution under Nero don't start to show up until some 150 years later. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

United States Army united seeked by emblem identification

Which unit is the soldier at the right (Guantanamo) from (unit emblem on chest)? Thanks, --77.4.125.39 (talk) 13:38, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

IT is VERY hard to see in the picture, but it looks like there is a piano keyboard at the top, so I guessed that it might be an insignia of one of the U.S. Army bands. Here is a list of them. It very well may be something entirely different, there are hundreds of these sorts of insignia patches in the U.S. military, and the picture is kinda fuzzy anyways... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

As a note, the caption suggests that this isn't a US Army insignia: Navy guards of the Joint Task Force, attached to the Navy Expeditionary Guard Battalion, provide a variety of reading material from religious books to leisure magazines at Camp 6. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 15:29, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

@Angus Lepper: Thank! Shame on me. Internet research at first sight failed though... Doesn't the Navy Expeditionary Guard Battalion have website? ---16:04, 19 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.4.125.39 (talk)

And if it were a Soldier (now capitalized BTW), that would not be a unit insignia; see Shoulder Sleeve Insignia (United States Army). --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Since when has soldier been capitalized? DuncanHill (talk) 16:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Since 2003, apparently. Looks like a case of keeping up with the Joneses to me. --Sean 17:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh good grief. DuncanHill (talk) 17:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

So from now on should we capitalize Wikipedia Editors, so they get all the respect they deserve? Edison (talk) 18:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

No. We writers don't take our marching orders from Gen. Schoomaker. Let him have his little empire where he can proclaim and decree all he likes, but the rest of the world - particularly lexicographers - should be deaf to his request. They record actual usage, not what one person would like to become actual usage. I suppose if I were employed on the good general's staff, I'd have to meekly comply. But outside of that, he can get nicked. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:36, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The patch being asked about is the Navy Master-at-Arms badge in patch form, not a unit emblem. (I.e., it identifies a position, not a location.) Here is a google'd image of the metal version that's easier to see/identify. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.225.27 (talk) 23:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

More info available about MA's at: Master_at_arms —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.225.27 (talk) 23:17, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

1/2 Carat Diamong Ring for $600, should I get it?

I am looking to buy an engagement ring, and my girlfriend and I recently walked into Whitehall Jewelers (which is going out of business and liquidating everything) We found a diamond solitaire ring in white gold and she really liked it. It was a size 7 so it would have to be sized down. The associate said that they would give us a coupon that we could use to go to a jeweler to have it sized for a cheaper price. The ring looked really nice and I was wondering If I should get it or not (sale ends in 11 days). 1) Since they are closing I won't get a warranty on the ring, but is a warranty for a diamond ring really necessary? 2)Does Whitehall give GIA, AGSL or other certification that shows the color, clarity etc. with their rings? Any Advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.126.152 (talk) 17:20, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Most reputable jewlers should allow you to get an independent appraisal; and many jewlers will sell you service contracts on any jewlery, even stuff you don't buy from them (though you may have to pay an annual fee to maintain the service contract). Check with the jewler where you plan to get the resizing done, and see if you can work out a deal with them. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:54, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing that dumping your intended and proposing to a fat-fingered girl is out ? :-) StuRat (talk) 01:11, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Note that decreasing the size of a ring is far easier than increasing it, as you don't have to match the material and get the new piece to bond with the old. StuRat (talk) 01:13, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

But still, a ring can only be resized about 3 sizes either way before you have to redo the setting. Steewi (talk) 01:23, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Cards

In Hearts and other similar card games where four people are dealt 13 cards, what are the chances of having all four cards in one pip value? 124.180.116.201 (talk) 23:10, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

This would be a good Q for the Math Desk. Do you mean the chances of a specific player being dealt 4-of-a-kind, or of any of the 4 players being dealt 4-of-a-kind ? StuRat (talk) 01:08, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Or to put it another way, which "all four cards" do you mean?

If you're asking about the chance of every player being dealt one ace, every player being dealt one king, etc., all at once (so everyone's hand contains one ace, one king, and so on), then that's very small: it's 4!^13/(52!/(13!^4)) or 1 chance in 61,204,166,001.13+.

--Anonymous, 01:55 UTC, December 20/08.

No, I didn't mean that. I meant if one person had every card in one pip value - for example, all 2's. 124.180.116.201 (talk) 04:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Use Combinatorics to solve this. The total number of possible 13-card hands from a 52 card deck is 52!/(13!*(52-13)!) which is 635,013,559,600. That's the denominator of our fraction. There are 13 possible 4 of a kinds, assuming the other 9 cards left in the hand can be random, that means that there are 52!/(9!*(52-9)!) = 3,679,075,400 was to have a SPECIFIC 4 of a kind (like, lets say, 4 deuces) or 13* that number for ANY 4 of a kind; which gives us 47,827,980,200. That's the numerator of our fraction. Thus the odds are about 7.53% chance of SOMEONE getting a 4 of a kind in a 13 card deal, which comes out to roughly a 3 out of 40 chance, or roughly once in every 13 hands or so. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:03, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Wait... that;s the odds per hand, not per deal. SInce there are 4 hands in every deal, the odds are 4 times that, meaning that there is a 30% chance that SOMEONE will get a 4 of a kind on any given deal, or that it will happen roughly once every third deal that someone will get a 4 of a kind of any sort. That feels better. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:11, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Aren't you missing a small contribution for the cases where you got 4 duces AND 4 jacks (say) and the cases where you got 4 aces, 4 kings and 4 queens (for example). SteveBaker (talk) 06:28, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

You can't just multiply probabilities by number of events like that. If you could, then two independent events, like coin flips, with a 50% probability, like heads, would multiply by two to guarantee a 100% chance that you would get a head with two coin flips. If they were truly independent events, then the formula would be 1-(1-0.0753)⁴, or 26.9%. That still seems a bit high, though, so I suspect that the 7.53% was high, too. Note that whether you have 4-of-a-kind isn't totally independent of whether other players have 4-of-a-kind, though, as any of them having it means there's one less way you can get it. StuRat (talk) 17:55, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Tossing a coin has a 0.5 prob of a head - the probability of getting two heads on two coins is 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.25. The probability of getting at least one head in two tosses is 0.5 for getting a head on the first toss and an 0.5 chance for having to make the second toss which has an 0.5 probability of success so now you have an 0.5 chance of succeeding on the first toss and a COMBINED 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.25 chance of both needing to make the second toss and it coming up heads...now you can add those two chances to get an 0.75 (75%) chance of getting at least one head in two tosses. I have no clue where you pulled 26.9% from (?!?) but it's certainly not right. We can check my math by simply listing all possible outcomes - there are four ways for two coins to come up (2 heads, 2 tails, tail and head, and fourthly, head and tail) since three of those four cases has at least one heads, the odds are 3 in 4 or 0.75. Had there been a third toss, the probability of having to make the third toss is only 0.25 - and the probability of it coming up heads is still 0.5 so a third toss adds an 0.125 chance of getting at least one head. So the total probability is 0.875...no matter how many tosses you make, it'll never quite reach a certainty of getting at least one head - but it'll get arbitarily close.

SteveBaker (talk) 20:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood me entirely, Steve. The coin toss was merely an example to Jayron32 to show that you can't just add the probabilities of independent events to get the total probability. And yes, the chances of getting any heads after two coin tosses is 1-(1-0.5)² = 75%. The 26.9% had nothing to do with coins, that's back to the original card question. If one accepts Jayron's assertion that the probability of any one player getting 4-of-a-kind in a 13 card random draw is 7.53%, and if one assumes the probability of each of 4 players of drawing a 4-of-a-kind to be independent events, then the probability that at least one will draw a 4-of-a-kind is 1-(1-0.0753)⁴ or 26.9%. I then went on to say that I doubt if either assumption is correct. StuRat (talk) 15:08, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Does that apply when they're thrown consecutively, or only when they're thrown simultaneously, Steve? Or maybe it doesn't make any difference. (My maths is crap these days.) -- JackofOz (talk) 00:34, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. Algebraist 00:40, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Jayron's numbers are a little off, the total number of hands is correct, but the number of specific 4 of a kinds should be 48!/(9!*(48-9)!) = 1,677,106,640 because 4 cards are already chosen. This makes the number of hands with at least one 4 of a kind of any value 21,802,386,320. So your odds for any single hand are about 3.43% and 13%(using sturat's equation) on any four hands. -- Mad031683 (talk) 00:39, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually that's still too high, since it double and triple counts hands with multiple 4 of a kinds. I think the correct total is 21,632,831,792 hands with at least one four of a kind, but its a tiny difference, 3.40% instead of 3.43% and 12.9% chance of one coming up in any single deal.-- Mad031683 (talk) 01:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I've seen it mentioned on bridge(cards) pages as a freaky thing when every player gets a complete suit,so maybe looking up those might help.^{(Hypnosadist)} 14:54, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Online repository for porn mag stories

Does anyone know of somewhere online where you can read porn stories like in the 'letters' section of porn mags? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.111.99.97 (talk) 23:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

This is probably the largest repository of written smut... well, anywhere, though they're not quite written in the same style as the letters sections to those glorious pillars of civilization. Matt Deres (talk) 01:15, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Is the newsgroup alt.sex.stories(.moderated) still alive? —Tamfang (talk) 20:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)