Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 January 15

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January 15

olive complexioned

Often, I hear references to individuals being "olive complexioned" ....Exactly what does that mean? What color skin is that and how is it distinguished from others? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tdogg56 (talk • contribs) 00:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Olive-coloured skin is coloured olive. From the article: "Sometimes people are said to be "olive-skinned", to denote shades of medium toned white skin with small hints of yellow and green.". I'm pretty sure many people who have olive-coloured skin are from the Medditerean area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.208.109.169 (talk) 01:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't green skinned people more likely originate from flying saucers? I have never seen a human of good health (normal liver function) who was green skinned. Tan or swarthy, perhaps. Edison (talk) 03:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I've always taken "olive-skinned" to refer to black olives which are really varying shades of brown. Although I have seen some people approach the color of the pimento in a green olive when embarrassed.

Atlant (talk) 14:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

It usually just means they have a hint of olive in their skin. They aren't green. If people in California have orange tinted tans, people in the Mediterranean often have brown/olive tinted complexion. As for how is it distinguished from others, well, it's not a scientific category. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 16:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

There's only one skin color, it's just that there are many different shades or densities of this one color. The chemical responsible for skin color is Melanin, and it is the level of this chemical in the outer layers of skin that determines how light or dark the individual's skin tone will be. What the term "Olive Complexion" refers to is a shade of darkness that is present even if the person has not been exposed to the sun's rays. In other words, if a "White" person who does not have any kind of a tan still is a bit dark, then he or she will be said to have an Olive Complexion. It's sort of a racist way of saying that the person is still an "acceptable" "White" person, as opposed to say someone who had the exact same skin tone, but was from a different race that is considered less socially acceptable (such as Mexican or Middle Eastern, etc). -- Saukkomies 18:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not true that "there's only one skin color". If you read our Human skin color article, you'll find that there are two distinct types of melanin.

Atlant (talk) 14:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that information, I stand corrected. -- Saukkomies 20:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of green skin, I went to school with a boy who had a very strong greenish cast to his skin - we even called him the Incredible Hulk as it was so obvious! He didn't have medical issues, as far as I was aware, and it was a small school and class, so we knew lots about each other. So what could have caused his weird colouration?Snorgle (talk) 15:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know but I'm a white guy from Cleveland, OH and I have a normal white complexion with a lot of red, but a few years ago I spent a few months in Nigeria and when I came back everyone was saying I looked olive colored. I can't say why really. It might've been the sun/diet or maybe the malaria/GI tract problems. Honestly, I don't think it was being sick because the wierd thing is I spent a lot of time in the sun over there and didn't get sunburned but over here I get sunburn all the time. Weird. -LambaJan (talk) 17:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Averge time a ref desker stays

How much on averge does someone who awesners question stay about on the refernce desk. Also what the hell happened to stevebaker BonesBrigade 01:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

You can find Mr. Baker at his User page, and his reasons for not appearing on the Ref Desks any longer are on his Talk page. As for an average time, that would be hard to assess, unless a whole bunch of regulars decide to land here with an answer. For many of us, we have the Ref Desks on our watchlists and pay attention when an interesting new section or edit summary comes up. We may only be "on the Desks" as long as it takes us to type a comment or answer, but may be watching them for as long as we are on Wikipedia at any given session. In my case, that could be from minutes to hours. Bielle (talk) 01:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Lots of of people come, stay a while, then leave for some reason. They may also come back later. Working out the average stay is a statistical nightmare problem ;)--TreeSmiler (talk) 02:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't fancy doing the stats, but you get get a feeling for how long editors have frequented the desks by using Wikidashboard For example, here you can see the contribution history to this page by the most prolific of ref deskers (you can click on the preferences tab and extend it to more people, if you wish) You will note that some editors, such as User:MacGyverMagic have been contributing at a low frequency, regularly since 2004. Other editors such as User:Justanother and User:Light current edited for short periods, about 6 months, but at a very high frequency. Rockpocket 03:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes it seems that high frequency leads to inevitable burnout (or banning)!--TreeSmiler (talk) 03:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

It is surprising I am on the top several list for science and humanities but not for miscellaneous. I have made a thorough study of so many miscellaneous things! Edison (talk) 03:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this a good place to report (please forgive lack of precise jargon here) that I went to the wikidashboard site (link above), my browser crashed twice, then when I went to a wikipage in history, the dashboard stayed put and when I tried to edit/reply to an RD section, a notice came up saying I was blocked and to log in again, which, stupidly I did when I realised it could be some kind of copy site thing happening. I closed the page, entered WRD's url and everything's back to normal. Have I given my login info away somewhere dodgy? Should I put this on another desk instead? Julia Rossi (talk) 06:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you happen to use Safari? I seem to remember there were issues with dashboard and Safari at one point, though I don't know if they persist. Rockpocket 07:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep. I do use Safari, so looks like there might still be issues. Were fake sites among them? Julia Rossi (talk) 07:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. I think it was technical issues with the browser; you should be fine. Rockpocket 07:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks heaps Rockpocket. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Back to the original question - I just like to come here because sometimes interesting conversations can be found. And, well, sometimes I can answer a question or two, being useful. I like to be useful. --Ouro (blah blah) 09:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Like Ouro, I browse to see if I can answer anything or if there is something interesting discussed. Since I contribute based on how much free-time I have and whether a question is asked that I can assist with. So yeah, the statistic would be virtually impossible to figure out since some of us have a very diverse knowledge-base, so we do not reply unless we can help.--droptone (talk) 19:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

US dependant visas

What is the rational behind allowing dependants of L1 visa holders (L2) to work, but not allowing the dependants of H1 visa holders (H4). There shoud be some logical reasoning behind this. I searched the web, but every site just says L2 can work - H4 cannot work. But is there a documented reason as to why this difference in treatment? - Kishore (talk) 03:04, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Why are ME oil exporting countries such staunch supporters of their dollar pegs?

If the dollar has fallen so much why do they refuse to adjust? Why do they also want to sell oil in dollars? -- 66.91.224.203 (talk) 03:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Good question. We have the article Petrodollar warfare which in part covers this, but no really good answer as to why Iran or Venezuela has not by now moved to Euros. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, Iran will only accept payment for oil in Euros. Nonetheless, the price is still based on dollars. This is partly because the two main oil exchanges in the world (there is a new smaller one in Dubai) are in London and New York, and they determine prices based on dollars. The countries can't really make that determination in terms of how it is priced, though, as Iran has done, they can chose to accept other currency. Cheers Geologyguy (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Super Mario Galaxy -- inaccurate title?

Why is the game called "Super Mario Galaxy"? First of all, there are many, many galaxies in the game. Each "galaxy" is a "level". So it should be called either "Super Mario Galaxies" or "Super Mario Universe". It makes no sense.

Actually, since each so-called "galaxy" consists of a few extremely small planet-like orbs, "Super Mario Orbs", "Super Mario Worlds", "Super Mario Planets" or "Super Mario Solar Systems" (that's really stretching it) would be more fitting.

(Don't even get me started about the suspension of disbelief required to accept the fact that Mario can breath in vacuum without any sort of suit etc.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.51.13 (talk) 05:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Super Mario Universe is their upcoming title. --antilived^{T | C | G} 05:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The whole game is completely and utterly insane (have you seen the last cutscene?). The title is just par for the course, methinks. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 07:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

But you've had no problem with the previous Mario titles in which giant mushrooms grant magical powers for limited time periods, giant pipes appear throughout the landscape, and a giant mutant turtle-thing is out to get you? --LarryMac | Talk 15:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Anyone know of Grammar Pie

It's a country style dish made from grammar which is a kind of squash or pumpkin but I can't find more about it except that this is the right spelling for it. Plus I want to know what a grammar is and if it is not available generally where can you get it. Anyone? Julia Rossi (talk) 05:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you mean Gramma pie? Here is a recipe. [1]. DuncanHill (talk) 05:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

And it appears that gramma, also known as rios, is a kind of squash or marrow, Cucurbita moschata. DuncanHill (talk) 05:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, DuncanHill much appreciated. I was confused because a British site called it grammar and then you can guess that google came up with English grammar etc. Took the mystery out of it to find it's a butternut squash. Best,  : ) Julia Rossi (talk) 05:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

It may be worth asking at a traditional greengrocer's, the thing with squashes is that there can be many different varieties within one species, and gramma does appear to be a particularly Australian thing. DuncanHill (talk) 06:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Aha. I've heard it does have a unique flavour and by that I take it not regular pumpkin, so will follow up next time I'm "in the field". Do you know if it's very different from pumpkin pie? Julia Rossi (talk) 06:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I make butternut squash pie frequently, and vastly prefer it to pumpkin pie. The taste is not so much a different one, as a far-more-pronounced one. To me, this is definitely a good thing. If making such a pie, my advice is that you: 1. MUST dry-roast the halved squash (about 400 F for 45 mins), then "rice" or grind or squish it, then squeeze out most of the liquid by wrapping it in cheesecloth or somesuch. (the liquid is wonderful in soups) and, 2. May want to increase your spices by half-again or even double. My guests always love this pie. I guess you could describe the flavor as "full-bodied". Quorumangelorum (talk) 11:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Particularly Australian? Never heard of it, I must say, and neither has my partner, a chef. I have heard of spaghetti squash, though, which is native to the USA. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe not such a cheffy thing as a period home kitchen thing? I've since heard of it on the east coast of NSW (tourist village restaurant) and a friend's great-grandmother was known to bake it. Glad of the special instructions above. Thanks to everyone, cheers Julia Rossi (talk) 08:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

SVG files

Two part question:

• Is there anyone on Wikipedia that can convert a PNG image to SVG?
• If so, can anyone convert this image from PNG to SVG? TomStar81 (Talk) 06:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of people who can vectorise on here, but I doubt your request can be fulfilled. The original is a scan of a real object, not a diagram or drawing, and thus unsuitable for SVG. --antilived^{T | C | G} 08:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that looks like an drawing to me, not a scan. Notice how all lines and stars are identical. But the resolution is frightfully low. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 16:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If you bribed or threatened someone they could probably redraw it from scratch in SVG, but it's tedious work, mate. Cheers, Ouro (blah blah) 09:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If you're looking for a quicky way to vectorize something, Vector Magic works better than most, and is free and runs out of your browser. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 16:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The Pentagon looks like a cool place to wander around

But what's a realistic way for a civilian to get a pass to visit?

128.54.76.88 (talk) 07:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

You have a few choices. Get a job in the media or make friends with an accredited Pentagon staffer who is willing to give you a tour [2], or contact your state representative’s office (a Senator or Congressman/woman) and request a place on a general public tour. If you are a member of an educational institution, and can round up 4 friends, you can also request a group tour. [3] Rockpocket 08:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, you could do like most terrorist wannabes do, and mug a Pentagon worker on his way to work in the morning on the Washington Subway station next to the Pentagon, steal his uniform and badge, and then make your way with the thousands of other commuters who use the subway each morning to go to work in the Pentagon. -- Saukkomies 05:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

That idea seems somehow bad to me. Who are you, 47? Poechalkdust (talk) 05:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think you may have missed the (perhaps too subtle) irony in my comment. I was intending it to illustrate that someone asking how to gain entrance to the Pentagon might not necessarily be as innocent as he or she may at superficial glance might seem to be... -- Saukkomies 13:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

First episode of "The Sarah Connor Chronicles"

At two different occasions, they run over a terminator with their car. Don't cars get ruined by hitting mooses/elks or even deers? So then a heavy metallic machine man should completely demolish the car... no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.51.13 (talk) 07:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Two responses come to mind: First, the cars looked like they would need, at minimum, some serious body work. And second, analyzing every detail for its physical realism is probably not the best way to enjoy the show. --Trovatore (talk) 07:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Did you notice how Cameron, the girl Terminator, had to pull the grill off of her truck when she hit the first Terminator, the substitute teacher guy? It was pretty wrecked. Corvus cornix_talk 17:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Cyclist Mickaël Pichon

Is the French cyclist Mickaël Pichon (not the motocross rider) retired or is he still racing? If so, in which team is he? -- Leptictidium (mammal talk!) 09:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

According to this entry from three weeks ago, he still seems to be part of the Bouygues Telecom team, but as a mechanic, not as an athlete anymore. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. -- Leptictidium (mammal talk!) 14:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Helicopters in Popular Culture

I know there is an article relating to the use of helicopters in popular culture because I've made edits to it. However, I cannot remember how to get to it. Could someone be so kind as to point me in the right direction? Z28boy (talk) 16:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, it doesn't appear that you have when logged in as Z28boy. This page indicates that the article has been deleted. Perhaps deleted articles don't show in your contribution history, I'm not sure. --LarryMac | Talk 16:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Chalk another one up for the deletionists. That sounds like the kind of quirky article that, IMHO, should have been allowed to remain. Let's face it, there's never going to be a list like that anywhere else on the interweb. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 16:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Yea, I agree. You are correct though LarryMac, I edited it long ago, anonymously, when I didn't have a user name. That is a shame it was deleted but I can understand the reasoning. Is there anyway I can view a history of a deleted page? Z28boy (talk) 16:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it the history of the article you want or the latest version of the article itself before it was deleted? If you ask an admin nicely, they might be prepared to send you the text, as long as you promise not to recreate it blah blah. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 16:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's the deletion log, by the way, and here is the discussion. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

In view of the debate, the delete decision seems to lie somewhere between harsh & capricious. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

How do those decisions work? Is it a simple majority of votes cast (keep vs. delete), or what? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 16:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#Closure: "The desired standard is rough consensus, not perfect consensus. Please also note that closing admins are expected and required to exercise their judgment in order to make sure that the decision complies with the spirit of all Wikipedia policy and with the project goal. A good admin will transparently explain how the decision was reached." I guess Wafulz does not like uncited lists. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

One of the few discussions on categories for deletion I took part in had a similarly frustrating outcome. Both by vote count and by strength of the arguments provided, it looked like "no consensus" leaning toward keep (in my opinion of course), yet the category was deleted with reference to alphabet soup. ("This category clearly violates WP:ABC, while the keep arguments are a good example of WP:DEF and WP:GHI" and so forth). Maybe reference desk regular Edison can share some pointers, as he has a lot of experience in deletion discussions. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, WP:CONS has this to say: "Polling is generally discouraged, except in specialized processes such as AFD." But I can't find anything else in policy about voting in AFD discussions. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 16:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Policy shopping (and next poster: outdent, please) --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

So after all that, are there any proper channels to appeal a delete? Z28boy (talk) 16:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Deletion review, I think. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Most of the "keep" suggestions were variants of "I like it", "it's useful", or "it will get better", whereas deletion arguments hinged on "it's largely unsourcable", "it's an indiscriminate collection of information", and "it's a list of triva". It almost certainly won't be recreated in this form. Honestly, with an article like this, it'd be better to start from scratch.-Wafulz (talk) 18:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

YMMV --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

See also the essay on in popular culture articles, for some background information on why this article existed, and why it was deleted... FiggyBee (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

How would Terminators come to existence?

Both the The Terminator movies and "Virus" (B movie) suffer from the same problem: HOW do those crude industrial robots begin to create more sophisticated robots without the help of humans who can maintain the factories, provide electricity, get raw material in and help out with details and so on? It just makes no sense. How can this robotic "evolution" take place?

Basically: How do car-building arms turn into T-800s or whatever models are used for actual manifacturing in the scary future? The Skynet virus must somehow spread from "all normal PCs" to factories where the virus knows whatever programming language required to reprogram the arms and then start building robots instead of cars? I have a hard time believing that this would at all be possible.

This really ruins the otherwise great movies for me. Please come up with a reasonable theory as to how this would be possible, even if we accept that it is not likely to ever happen IRL. How does it work IN THEORY? Not even the theory holds up for me (or really is ever explained in any sort of detail). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.49.146 (talk) 17:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

PS: Also, Skynet BOMBS humans to Kingdom Come, meaning the industries would be ruined as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.49.146 (talk) 17:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

In at least one instance (the second film) the base technologies were reverse-engineered by Cyberdyne from Arnie's brain. Algebraist 17:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

In the third film, it's likely Skynet employed a Process Too Complicated To Explain. Algebraist 17:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If you had sufficiently intelligent Artificial Intelligence then it wouldn't be totally implausible. If you gave a very clever Linux hacker a peripheral they had never used before they'd be able to figure out how to make their own drivers to make it do whatever they wanted — they do this all the time. If you had a massively large, parallel AI system that somehow achieved sentience, then sure, it could use that to build whatever it wanted, why not. The hard part (and very sci-fi part, at this point) is coming up with a computer program that could be so smart and have such a strong will. Once you imagine that, though, it taking over factories, using robots to do its bidding, etc., that's not super implausible.

As for bombing the humans, well, it would depend how they bombed them. You can kill a lot of people without damaging heavy industry, if that's what you want to do. You don't have to worry too much about heavy industry if there's nobody to operate it.

There are, of course, experiments done today on evolutionary algorithms. They aren't always very successful — sometimes if the "reward" is set too narrow they'll find a "cheating" way to get to it (I remember reading about some algorithm years ago that was supposed to do something rather simple, like learn how to set up some sort of communications channel, and it ended up doing it in a very counter-intuitive way, by using some random piece of metal in the computer as a radio receiver or something like that). --24.147.69.31 (talk) 17:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey!This is SCIENCE FICTION.Right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.248.2.51 (talk) 09:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

If you buy the premise of A) Totaly automated factories, and B) A super-inteligent AI gone awry. Then it's not too hard to imagine. Imagine that the Crazy AI designs a robot, orders the parts it needs over the internet, then assembles it into it's newly designed robot, through whatever mechanism this completely automatic factory normally uses to receive car parts and make them into cars. So much is done over the phone and over the internet nowadays that if it encountered a problem that its factory robots couldn't handle, it could probably just call a temp agency and HIRE someone to do some work for it. The employee would just assume that it was doing trouble-shooting work in an automated factory for some human boss he'd never met.

If the factory AI could recruit other crazy AI's, (Perhaps the one that controls peace-keeping robots for the local police department.) then it gets even worse. APL (talk) 19:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

June 27 Query

Hi,

I'm looking for anything to do with June 27 - Birthdays, Deaths, Historical Facts, Events - whatever that happened on this date would be greatly appreciated - going as far back as possible in history. Thanks, Tara Kimberley Torme —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taratorme (talk • contribs) 17:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried June 27? -- Coneslayer (talk) 17:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Enzo Ferrari

Enso Ferrari 'broke his promise' by designing or manufacturing this car. There are/were only 2 other brands that will/could do 0-62 as stock. This car has/had only 4 available factory installed options, one being a radio designed for this car in particular. This car is not Italian. What kind of car is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.161.232 (talk) 17:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• Is this a double jeopardy question? --WebHamster 18:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Remote Control Toys

Is there a remote control toy that can also be or plug into a computer (like have a USB port) and take instructions from a computer controlling its moves? Is there a special term for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.203.103.2 (talk) 19:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

There are certainly remote control toys that can accept inputs from a computer program. However, I'm unaware of any specific widely-recognized term to classify them. — Lomn 19:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If you haven't already read it, Turtle (robot), might be useful, although not really current. The IRobot Create appears to be a modern variant - not sure whether it's remote control or pre-progam. Checking out gadget gift websites like I Want One of Those, there are things like the horribly expensive Robonova. It does say it's progammable, but it doesn't say how. I'm sure there's something like what you describe somewhere: you can pretty much buy anything with a USB connector these days. --Kateshortforbob 19:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Where could I find them or how could I find more information on these toys with unputs to be controlled by a computer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.203.103.2 (talk) 19:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Google for usb toy, take a look around thinkgeek. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Lego Mindstorms fits the bill, I think. (And it has Bluetooth connectivity as well as USB.) —Steve Summit (talk) 23:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Right, I think Mindstorms is what you are looking for. They're quite well-known for this ability and have a very developed community and are very flexible. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 23:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Mindstorms has bluetooth now? I feel behind the times. My set needs a serial port! 24.2.176.64 (talk) 04:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Looser of the mens marathon at the Mexico City Olympics of 1968

I've been unable to locate the name of the looser of the men's marathon using this website.

The man arrived in the stadium a long time after everyone else and the reason he completed the

race was that he told a reporter-"my country did not send me here to quit"-or something similar.

Thanks --Kirliee (talk) 19:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is the story. If you think it should be in one of the articles on Wikipedia, be bold and add it. And please, the word is "loser." "Looser" is what your belt is after you let it out a notch. --LarryMac | Talk 19:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, every one of the hundreds(?) of competitors apart from the winner was a loser, in the sense that that they didn't win. Even silver and bronze medallists are losers. I hate the way that sounds, but I hope you know what I mean. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Dissolving tiling grout in a toilet bowl

So having completed tiling our bathroom floor the remaining excess grout ended up in the bottom of the porcelain toilet bowl, where it remains. Any ideas what can be put in the bowl to dissolve the grout? 84.70.165.195 (talk) 19:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)Steve the Flush

Did I miss the "language" part of your question? Maybe using strong words might dislodge it? +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 19:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Nope, but this is the Language reference desk. You might like to try the Miscellaneous Reference Desk instead. Or ask Heloise. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 19:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

moved from language desk -Elmer Clark (talk) 19:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Your hand, and some sort of firm but gentle shear action - perhaps with a piece of wood? You should be able to clear grout from porcelain without reaching for the chemicals.--Tagishsimon (talk) 20:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

You dont dissolve it, you pick it out with your hand (wearing rubber gloves if you are squeamish) and put it in the dust bin. There are enough chemicals already in the sewerage system.--TreeSmiler (talk) 00:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Spirits of salt will remove any residue that you can't scrape off. DuncanHill (talk) 00:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Isnt pouring HCl down your toilet against the local water company regulations?--TreeSmiler (talk) 01:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Disposing of industrial quanities of it might be, but a small amount to dissolve accretions should be fine - it is, after all, marketed as a toilet cleaner. DuncanHill (talk) 01:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

OK I didnt realise that!--TreeSmiler (talk) 01:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

It's good stuff - but you do need to follow the safety instructions on the bottle. DuncanHill (talk) 01:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm suddenly reminded of a joke [4]...

Atlant (talk) 23:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

What sort of pipes are you referring to? [5] It doent attack copper either to any appreciable effect. It may affect your internal pipes though!--TreeSmiler (talk) 01:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The joke dates from the days of cast iron drain pipes, so I'd guess it refers to those.

Atlant (talk) 13:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Gold Mines California

Does anyone know where I could find the resource or a listing of old gold mines in California? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.203.103.2 (talk) 20:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• The state government has some pretty good resources. --M@rēino 22:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

There should be an Economics and Business desk

Yes. Agree? 128.54.77.53 (talk) 21:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Not a proper question for RD. Move it to RD talk--TreeSmiler (talk) 21:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Copied to Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#There_should_be_an_Economics_and_Business_desk. Please respond and comment there. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• Without commenting on the merits of this suggestion, I will advise that if you have a specific question about business, that you use the humanities desk in the meantime, unless the question is mathematical or statistical in nature, then use the math desk. --M@rēino 22:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)