Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 June 30

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June 30

Royal Navy

After the fairly recent announcment that the seventh and eighth type 45 destroyer will never be built, meaning the number of destroyers will decrese from 16 down to 6, and other continued drops in ship numbers, does the Royal Navy still have the capability to not only protect UK waters but also to project power where necessary? For instance could the UK realistically fight another Falklands war in the near future and win? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.61.51 (talk) 01:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a question of debate. A well organised small-scale army can be much more effective than a large unorganised one. Realistically it's impossible to say whether or not it 'could' until it 'has' to. What if a bunch of tin-pot dictatorships grouped together and attacked the UK. Could the navy repel them? What about if it was the US attacking? It's all opinion. Less ships doesn't have to mean less ability to defend, but similarly more ships would (at first glance) appear to offer better protection. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:33, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

It is hardly a matter of opinion. It is on record that the Falklands War was only just managed, the capacity to ship men materials and equipment that distance no longer exists, so only reasonably local actions can be considered. Then the Chief of Staff just last week warned that the UK is over-stretched to handle two Iraq sized operations. And consider - if the decision was that the UK needed 16 destroyers, how can she now cope with only 6 ? Nobody, of course, seriously expects the UK to have to repel invasion; and she certainly is not equipped to do so.86.209.153.77 (talk) 12:55, 30 June 2008 (UTC)DT

Clearly it's a matter of opinion because nobody knows whether the UK could until it was tested. Yes there are informed opinions based on evidence, but the number of ships a country owns is not going to be an accurate indicator of its ability to repel invasion or to oversee otehr wars. Remember the people on the inside have little to benefit by accepting less amounts of resources, so they will invariably be concerned by reductions. In the modern world is 10 destroyers more going to be worthwhile expenditure? Seemingly not, and whilst that may open greater risk it is, evidently, considered an acceptable amount of additional risk. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

An additional 10 destroyers aren't going to make any significant contribution to the defence. If somebody (other than the U.S.) tried to invade, America would be compelled to send in the USN to squash the threat forthwith. On offence, I'm having a hard time coming up with any situation other than the Falklands (Malvinas) where it could make a difference. Are there any other midsized naval powers that threaten British interests? So, is it worth it to build, maintain and man that many ships for just one potential conflict? Apparently, the government doesn't think so. Clarityfiend (talk) 16:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The United Kingdom has left itself completely dependent upon a declining power, the United States. British interests may well need defending in regions such as the Persian Gulf. And, if the United States were hobbled by domestic economic disaster and unrest and overstretched in, say, the Middle East (neither scenario is farfetched in my opinion), terrorists and pirates (perhaps based in the Middle East or Russia) could decimate shipping to and from the United Kingdom. The UK is of course dependent economically and nutritionally on shipping. It is highly risky for the UK to abandon a commitment to adequate naval self-defense, even if it leaves the government more money for vote-winning expenditure in the near term. 192.251.134.5 (talk) 17:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

If the UK suddenly needed destroyers, perhaps they could ask for another Lend-Lease program like the one which began in March 1941, in which the U.S. sent them military equipment on easy terms. And by the way, thanks for finishing the payments in 2006. Or perhaps the U.S. would trade the UK the destroyers in exchange for the right to use British facilities for military bases like the Destroyers for Bases Agreement of 1940. If the U.S is a declining power, then perhaps the U.K. could ask China for help next time. Or perhaps if terrorists and pirates threaten British shipping they could authorize Privateers (like William Kidd) to combat the pirates (though sometimes privateers turn to the dark side). Blackwater Worldwide is an appropriately named company which already fields large numbers of land warriors, and which has trained Naval Sea Commandos for Azerbaijan, to aid their patrolloing of the Caspian Sea. Such a company might wish to add a seafaring anti-pirate service if the dollars were right. If the UK government cuts back too far on military preparedness, they could leave the country in the position of having to appease tyrants as was the case in the 1930's. Edison (talk) 19:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Can sound really bend light?

How powerful is sound anyways, that it can bend freakin' light!? Supposedly the Philadelphia Experiment did this. And if that's the case, maybe sound is a little more powerful than we give it credit for, huh?THE WORLD'S MOST CURIOUS MAN (talk) 02:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, considering that the Philadelphia Experiment is considered to be a hoax, I wouldn't draw a lot of conclusions based on it. Still, sound can be pretty powerful; if you're interested in the subject, articles like sonic weaponry, infrasound and ultrasound may be of interest to you. That's some pretty cool stuff, right there. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 02:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Can't different types of gases bend light? I don't think it's that hard to bend light. 4.159.183.112 (talk) 02:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Sound is just waves in a medium. Mediums can refract and reflect light. So sure. You could set it up to "bend light". All that really means is changing the direction of some photons, which is exactly what my glasses do (in order to make them better align up with my eye's wonky point of focus). Bending light is not interesting unless it's something that really "shouldn't" bend light under classical theories (like gravity). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 02:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at Schlieren photography. Small variations of pressure in air cause diffraction, and these can be detected. That's as good as it gets. — Kieff | Talk 05:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Haha that Philadelphia experiment thing got me LOLing. 125.21.243.66 (talk) 06:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You might enjoy our articles about acousto-optic modulator and acousto-optics.

Atlant (talk) 14:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Members of a small group with the same birthday

I’m looking for examples where 2 or more members (but not twins or triplets) of a smallish notable “group” have the same birthday. This would not necessarily be a formal group such as a rock band; it could be a loose association of like-minded people, such as the Bloomsbury Group, or Les Six. The smaller the group the more interesting the coincidence (to me, anyway; because once we start approaching 20 people, eg. some sporting teams, it becomes much more likely that 2 of them will have the same birthday).

Two I know of are:

• The Monkees (4 members) – Mike Nesmith (1942) and Davy Jones (1946) both born 30 December; and
• The Goons (3 principal members) – Harry Secombe (1921) and Peter Sellers (1925) both born 8 September.

There must be others. Any ideas? -- JackofOz (talk) 03:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

A group with twins, triplets, etc. in them? (hope at least that much helps) ~EdGl (talk) 03:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair point. Let's exclude twins and triplets (amended question). -- JackofOz (talk) 03:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

During the 1980s, the New Zealand national cricket team's main bowling attack was Richard Hadlee (b. 3 July 1951) and Ewen Chatfield (b. 3 July 1950). Admittedly a cricket team has eleven members, but usually only two or three strike bowlers (FWIW, their top batsman in that era was John Wright (b. 5 July 1954)). Grutness...wha? 05:23, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I love cricket 125.21.243.66 (talk) 06:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Then you'd like the eliminated twins Mark and Steve Waugh. Dang. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Must the group be notable for something else? This family have three generations with leap year birthdays. Gwinva (talk) 22:27, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if that's more or less likely than 3 children born in different years, all on Leap Day, such as the Henriksens of Andenes, Norway: their 3 kids were born in 1960, 1964 and 1968, all on 29 February. Then there's the Cummins family of Virginia: their 5 natural-born children were all born on 20 February, in 1952, 1953, 1956, 1961 and 1966. Both these cases made it to Guinness as well (1986).

Yes, Gwinva, I'm looking for notable, and not closely related, people who are primarily connected by being part of the same group or association, not because of the coincident birthday. This excludes husbands and wives such as Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta-Jones, born exactly 28 years apart; and Nancy Astor and Waldorf Astor, who were born not only with the same birthday but on exactly the same day, 19 May 1879.

Grutness, your NZ cricket example is a good one; it's expanded my list by 50%, so thanks. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Competitive Intellingence in organisation's operation management.

I need the answers in details for the following questions.

1. The fields where competitive intelligence is used currently. 2. needs, methods, process, advantages & disadvantages of implementing competitive intelligence in organisation's operation management. 3. Future of CI.

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.208.159.19 (talk) 04:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Our article Competitive intelligence needs attention but it has an enormous number of references and links to help you in your research. There is even a magazine called Competitive intelligence. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

What kind of shoe?

There are several kinds of shoes (mary janes, high heels, chucks, boots etc.). But what kind shoe was the lady in the 1993 version of Attack of the 50 Foot Woman wearing at the time she became huge? Though I've seen it in the market a lot, I don't know what it's called. 4.68.248.65 (talk) 07:33, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Apart from when she's wearing bare feet, can you describe them or give a link? Julia Rossi (talk) 08:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

They're white in color. They're mainly made of cloth except for the sole. Shoes of those kind are usually worn without socks. If you need a link, I think they have clips of the movie in YouTube. 4.68.248.65 (talk) 20:41, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds a bit like a plimsoll. That article says they are the same thing as chucks, but plimsolls in the UK are a different kind of shoe. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 20:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Magic trick

Hello, I'm looking for the article on a magic trick which basically consists of the magician making a coin appear behind the ear of a spectator. Could you please tell me the name of this trick? Leptictidium (mt) 08:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to have a name in wiki's List of magic tricks, but there's Coin magic and google finds how to in wiki howMake-a-Coin-Dissapear-and-Reappear-Behind-Someone's-Ear and how to is also here[1]. It seems to be known as "coin from behind the ear" trick. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

See also sleight of hand.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:28, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Rights, priviliges, and resposibilities of degree

At my college's commencement, the president says, "I confer upon you the degree of _____, and admit you to all its rights, privileges, and responsibilities." What exactly are these "rights, privileges, and responsibilities"? They never told us. Thanks, --219.136.191.12 (talk) 09:42, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You have the right to write to them and ask. You also have the right/privilege to put letters after your name and to wear the academic gown of a graduate of your college. Your responsibility is to put to good use the things you have learnt. You probably have the right to join an alumnus association, and although their interpretation may be that that carries the responsibility to contribute to the funds of your alma mater that may not be your interpretation. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

If you went to an old university the 'rights' probably include some anachronistic curiosities.. such as the right to beat a commoner in town on sunday whilst driving sheep through the quadrangle.. etc.. , the privilidges also probably would include similar such freedoms

In general such rights etc would be similar to those that clergymen had, also you are probably expected to 'defend learning' in the same way a member of a knightly order would be expected to defend damsels..

More pragmatically, certain degrees confer a right to practice certain professions (and to use a title)

I guess the place to start looking would be in the charter of your chosen university, and the charters or any associated colleges.87.102.86.73 (talk) 12:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Book

I have a Mario activity book made by a company called "Moo Man". But I can't find any mention of either the book or the company anywhere on the internet. Anyone have a link? 208.76.245.162 (talk) 11:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Could it be related to Keene Publishing/Moo Press Inc.? Plasticup ^T/C 12:22, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You might try searching for the ISBN instead. You should find this above or below the barcode which is usually on the back cover.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Math and its impact/influence on/to 21st Century Architecture

Has mathematics had an impact or influence on/to 21st Century Architecture? (in the areas of designs of buildings/landmarks/houses)

I'm very curious about architecture and how its changed over the century. If someone could provide me with some links to some good articles that'd be nice. Thanks

Happysnaps (talk) 12:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

See Geodesic dome, although this is more of a 20th century thing. I'm sure others will be along soon to give a fuller answer. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Any building that stands up is likely the result of some successful maths. Plasticup ^T/C 12:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

History of architecture is good for well...the history of architecture. Fribbler (talk) 13:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

A lot of modernist buildings (eg see Zaha Hadid) probably woudn't be possible without computer CAD programs, and associated structure analysis programs, which rely on maths.. if that makes sense..87.102.86.73 (talk) 13:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I visited London City Hall only yesterday, and it's internal helical walkway (in fact it looked more elliptical) probably took some fancy maths to design. Across the river, the Gherkin, also has an interesting shape, yet has only one curved panel of glass. Astronaut (talk) 03:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course, mathematics and associated engineering disciplines have always impacted on architecture. The medieval cathedral was never simple, and the Gothic ones were frequently quite complicated affairs. Gwinva (talk) 22:38, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Volunteer somehow with Foster Children?

I used to be a foster child. It was a really, really bad childhood, too graphic to explain here. But I made it through hell and back and now I am doing well for myself. I called my local foster care place here in CT and left a message to request to become a mentor or something. No one has called me back after several messages. Does anyone know who I can call to become a mentor for foster children? I want to help those who need help, the help I didn't get when I was in foster care...--Anthonygiroux (talk) 13:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

How about the Big Brothers/Big Sisters organisation? Here? Fribbler (talk) 13:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Is there something that is just for Foster Children? Especially in the Danbury, Ct area? --Anthonygiroux (talk) 13:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

How about this? (I take it CT is connecticut, USA). Fribbler (talk) 13:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Fribbler! --Anthonygiroux (talk) 13:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Mcdonald's

I'm getting a job soon, but I don't know how much i'll get paid.

How much would my pay check be if I (I'll be 16 soon) get a job at Mcdonald's in Desoto, Mo 63020. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikrocorp (talk • contribs) 13:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

McDonald US job's site says a crew position in DeSoto pays "$6.50 and up depending on work experience" (I assume that is an hourly rate). When you actually get your job (at McDonald's or anywhere else), your actual rate will be written down in your contract of employmnet or your job offer letter. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Your paycheck will be the product of your hours worked times your hourly rate, reduced by various deductions - income tax withholding (federal and state), Social Security/Medicare, uniform costs (which should not recur), etc. --LarryMac | Talk 14:47, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Does Medicare (United States) provide cover for children? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 19:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC) Damn! Answer's in the article.

So, if you're making $6.50 an hour and you work 40 hours per week, your gross pay (before deductions) would be $260 per week. Your net weekly pay (after tax and Social Security deductions) most weeks (not counting any one-time deduction for a uniform) would be something like $215. If you work 20 hours per week, you will probably take home something like $110. This is assuming that there are no deductions for health insurance. These estimates could be off by $5–10. 192.251.134.5 (talk) 17:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. 70.130.211.88 (talk) 21:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Do we capture references to Wikipedia in Academic Books?

Last year I and a couple of other editors brought the Wonderbra article up to a featured article. Two of the key sources were a couple of books by Henry Mintzberg. Just this year, his new book revisits the Wonderbra story and he cites the wikipedia article as source of information. Is this useful/helpful for wikipedia? Mattnad (talk) 16:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Answering my own question, after some hunting, I think I found an appropriate spot here Wikipedia:Wikipedia_as_an_academic_source#Published_2007 Mattnad (talk) 17:33, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Robert Mugabe

Did he undergo surgery for a cleft lip at some point in his life, or is that just a weird moustache? Thanks in advance. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 16:55, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

It is a toothbrush moustache. Fribbler (talk) 17:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Club Moscow

There has been a lot of talk here in Finland about Sedu Koskinen's latest club feature, "Club Moscow", featuring topless female DJs. So I decided to go to one. At first, there was only a male DJ playing. But after four hours, he was replaced by a female DJ and two dancing girls. The DJ basically did a combination of DJing and striptease. Now I've never been to Moscow, let alone to the original club nights Sedu Koskinen now claims to impersonate. Are they also like this? JIP | Talk 19:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

A google search [2] appears to show that topless DJ's at least exist in Moscow and at most are quite frequent. Fribbler (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Do the DJs start out topless or strip as they go along? And do they concentrate only on DJing or do they walk around showing their bodies? The DJ in Helsinki did both of the latter. JIP | Talk 05:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Weird flashes from Zen Vision W

I might be going mad, but I think that I have seen for about three to four times the screen of my Zen Vision W extremely briefly, for about a hundredth of a second, flash a bright white, when it's turned off. It happens very rarely, and always when I'm not looking at it directly. Am I just imagining things, or can gadgets with LCD displays do such things? JIP | Talk 19:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I have no familiarity whatsoever with the device in question, but I've at times thought that I've spotted both my cellphone and iPod doing the same thing at times. However, I eventually realized that what I thought was a flash of light from the device itself was actually light reflecting off the glass of the screen when I was putting the thing away; I managed to very turn it very briefly to just the right angle for it to hit my eye. From the corner of my eye, it looked like the screen suddenly lit up for an instant. Could you be experiencing the same thing? -- Captain Disdain (talk)

Doubt you're going mad - it's probably the backlight (if anything) , as I don't know more about the backlight eg what sort it is etc I can't say more - you might get more answers on the science desk. (fluorescent backlights can produce a flash of light when turned of - possibly relating to the power supply for them discharging itself - guess)

As an experiment to confirm of disprove the theory above - try turning it off in a darkened room..87.102.86.73 (talk) 20:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

It could also be the interference of other electronic items in the house, but I am not sure on that one kinda depends if its on or not.Cardinal Raven (talk) 01:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. I think it's one of three things:

1. My imagination,
2. An outside light source reflecting off the screen, or
3. Some sort of static electricity discharging itself.

It happens when the device has been turned off for hours, not immediately after turning off. JIP | Talk 05:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Got any energy saving electric bulbs? I think I've seen what your describing from those too (usually after I go to bed - at night - switch of the lamp etc..) - some backlights are fluorescent.. Still no idea if i've imagined it myself though.87.102.86.73 (talk) 13:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

It's work noting that once a fluorescent light starts up it's a cascade (see Electron avalanche) process - which would explain why it flashes, and not glows...87.102.86.73 (talk) 13:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Terms & Services

Hi, I was curious to see if anyone here would know how much a lawyer would charge to write Terms and Services for a website. Just a rough estimate is fine :) Thanks!!

I don't think you'll be able to get a rough estimate without describing the purpose of the terms. I've had clients (in the UK) who have had terms and conditions created for anything between £300 up to £2000 depending on how complex the T&Cs were. Cosmic joker (talk) 22:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you even need a lawyer? I've noticed that the terms for many sites are very similar in content, so perhaps you could copy the terms from a website in the same area of business and the same jurisdiction and modify them yourself to suit your site. Astronaut (talk) 04:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Though unless you got permission to do that, you might run into copyright issues. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Train into London Victoria

I was on the train into London Victoria a week or so ago, and when we arived at Victoria the driver talked over the intercom and said "Please remember to take all your belongings with you when you leave the train, especially if your a government minister with top secret documents in your breifcase." I know what this is in relation to and that it was a joke, but could the driver have gotten into trouble if someone had reported it or the boss had heard it? Plemis monter (talk) 20:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that depends on his employers' sense of humor, but it's not too uncommon for things like this to happen. At least here in Finland you can hear train or bus drivers or other people in similar positions to occasionally do things like that, and I've heard similar things when traveling in other countries as well -- several times in a British train, as a matter of fact. It's also not uncommon for airline pilots to have a little fun every once in a while. I'd imagine most passengers find it entertaining. I certainly do. Of course, if an employer has strict regulations in place that forbid this sort of thing, that may be another story, but there's certainly no law or custom that forbids people in customer service from making jokes in Britain that I know of -- or, I suspect, anywhere else. Good thing, too; it'd be a step towards a more boring and banal world. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 21:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I've heard the driver of a train from Kuopio to Helsinki make the announcement of the train's journey in a very laid-back and jocular way. But in the capital region, the announcements are always all business. JIP | Talk 05:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, it's not that uncommon to hear pretty surprising announcements in the Helsinki local trains or trams. In fact, just a couple of months back I was sitting in a tram and the driver announced over the PA system that he was new at the job, told us his name and said that he was glad to meet us, and that he was sure we'd all become very close friends during the coming months, because he knew what it was like on the other side of the fence, because just recently he was just like all of us, and he wasn't going to let the fame go to his head. It sure made my morning a little less miserable. =) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 12:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

If you work on the tube, it could land you a pretty cushy job... — Matt Eason ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 08:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Specifically this was a reference to a recent case of a government minister who had not done precisely that i.e. remembered to take his top secret documents with him when he left the train. See [3] DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, and I think that so does the original poster ("I know what this is in relation to"). I doubt that makes the driver any more or less likely to get in trouble for it, though. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 23:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You knew, and the original poster knew, and so did DJ. But let us not forget the whole rest of the audience (like me). --LarryMac | Talk 12:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I've heard a streetcar driver in Toronto announce stops in humourous ways, including pointing out all the local sights you might want to see if you get off at that stop. Usually they just announce them as if they are bored and falling asleep though. The subway drivers sometimes used to be more lively until the stop announcements were all replaced by the friendly Bombardier lady's voice. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:06, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The Daily Mail said yesterday that 130 laptops have been lost by Ministers and Civil Servants in 2007 alone. So the driver was recording his own protest in the way the British do it best, withy sarcasm.86.209.25.112 (talk) 10:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)DT

At what age

At what age do you become too old to know better? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Migglebiggle (talk • contribs) 20:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Wade Hayes released the album Old Enough to Know Better in 1995 at age 25 or 26. According to the title track, he was at that point simultaneously "old enough to know better", yet "still too young to care". That, therefore, sets an upper limit on the age threshold of not more than 26 years of age. I cannot comment on any reliable source describing when one does become old enough to care. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:28, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Oops--misread the question. Not sure about 'too old to know better'. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

When Senility kicks in? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Having been there, I wish to replace the above term with rigor mortis.

When I get to the latter, I will attempt a post mortem message to the RD as to my thanatological aspects. I hope this thread will be in the archives and not the penulatimate one. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Starting to sound like the promise of a penultimatelaminate, Cooky – somewhere in infinity is possible. Julia Rossi (talk) 06:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I requested a CD on ShipIt and it was not approved

I requested a 64-bit Ubuntu 8.04 CD but I was denied. Two month ago, I request one Ubuntu 8.04 and one 8.04 Kubuntu CD. One month ago, I ordered a Ubuntu 8.04 Server CD and I was accepted. Now, I ordered a Ubuntu 64-bit CD and I not not approved. What should I do? Should I wait for the next release of Ubuntu? Jet (talk) 21:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you should wait for the next release of Ubuntu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.41.139.85 (talk) 22:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

It's still quite a way to the next release. Why do you NEED a CD anyway, can't you just download it? --antilived^{T | C | G} 08:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The "Green" Home

I had watched a show earlier about unusual homes. Basically it was about people who made houses of recycles, old tires,etc. Then a thought came into my mind. Is there any structural safety in making a home out recycle soda cans? I mean by structural safety if you are living in earthquake country, would your house survive the earthquake? Is it really practical to make a house out of recycle cans and other stuff? Is this something everybody should do? Should a giant city like New York, for example, tear down there buildings and remake them with recycled cans, tires, etc?. Thank You. Always. Cardinal Raven (talk) 22:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, the thing about a house built out of cans is that even if it falls down on you, it's not likely to do that much damage simply because cans are very light. It's a far cry from being hit by a slab of concrete. I don't know what kind of a "green" homes you saw in the show, so I can't really comment on them, but generally speaking, it takes pretty specific circumstances for building materials like this to be viable. Obviously, a house built out of used tires or cans is going to be fairly small -- the material isn't strong enough to support a lot of weight, so you couldn't build multi-story buildings, let alone actual skyscrapers from them. Also, they may not be that great for emergencies -- a house built out of cans isn't likely to hurt you, but a fire in a house built out of old tires would probably be a pretty bad deal, as anyone with any experience with tire fires could probably tell you. Also, there are questions like insulation and plumbing -- New York, since you bring it up, gets pretty cold winters, and a wall made out of cans or tires isn't going to keep the heat in efficiently. And finally, even if materials like this would be taken into consideration with future construction, what would be the point of tearing down the existing buildings? That would only consume a lot of time, money and energy.

Still, things like this may well be viable choices in suitable environments -- if the weather is generally nice and other circumstances are suitable, and the construction is sturdy enough, why not? I mean, a lot of the wooden buildings people live in certain warm climates are pretty flimsy, but they're sturdy enough for that particular environment. Still, you should know that recycling materials like this may not be as efficient or environmentally friendly as one might think -- if the end result consumes considerably more energy than a more traditional building would, in the long run that'll definitely be worse for the environment. I guess it really depends on how solid the planning for a project like this is. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 23:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree a green home may not be a bad thing. But we could hardly build a house made out of recycled cans in tornado country, we can't build a tire house in fire country, etc. Second, I don't think certain people are ready for a green home. Certain people are addicted to materialism and money a green home may not suit. Of course you also did point out we also have to find materials that are good for the environment. So it isn't necessarily the fact of the green home it's what the green home is made out of and where is it made.Cardinal Raven (talk) 01:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

It's worth noting that some of the comments above seem to have neglected to realise that people who make houses out of recycled cans usually start by filling them with compacted earth for structural stability. This increases the ()otherwise virtually nil) insulation and soundproofing of the buildings. It would also have considerable bearing on both the tornado (safer) and earthquake (riskier) concerns. There are certainly plenty of sites out ther willing to provide advice either through their websites of by emailing questions (a quick google found the likes of this site and this site, for instance). Grutness...wha? 04:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

You can build a home from recycled materials, but don't expect a shack made of old tyres and cans to be earthquake proof. Whenever there's an earthquake in some third-world country, it is always the poorest in their shoddily built temporary shacks who suffer the most. Astronaut (talk) 04:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

That depends entirely on the building material. In the first world, expensive brick houses will fare far worse than middle-class wood-framed houses. --Carnildo (talk) 22:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I may have misunderstood the question (where you may have meant "is it possible to build walls from alumin[i]um soda cans"), but I started to think about the more-general topic of "how would one use aluminum cans in all of the structural elements of a home". I came up with two possibilities:

• Melt down the cans and make ordinary structural elements (I-beams, metal joists, and the like) out of the aluminum. These would be quite light and strong so they'd be structurally efficient (little dead load compared to their strength). They'd also be highly corrosion-resistant, leading to a long life even in harsh environments.

• Maybe it would be possible to crush the cans in such a way as to interlock them into three-dimensional tesselations? Perhaps you could form domes, arches, and other structural elements using these interlocking cans? It probably won't be as strong as the first option, but it seems closer to achieving your goal without the possible cheat of melting down the cans.

Atlant (talk) 19:28, 1 July 2008 (UTC)