Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2012 February 5

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February 5

Keeping building or structure heights secret?

So apparently there is this new building that will be built soon in Saudi Arabia called the Kingdom Tower which will be the tallest building in the world, and in true Middle Eastern fashion and in the spirit of Burj Khalifa, its exact height is being kept a secret (at least until it is finished, if it will ever be). I noticed that the recent buildings that keep or kept their heights secret like the aforementioned Burj Khalifa, the Nakheel Tower (now cancelled, meaning its height will never be known) and the Kingdom Tower are all in the Middle East, and the only other two that I know of (the Chrysler Building and the Empire State Building) were built almost 70 years ago (which was understandable, because the two buildings were in a race for the title of "World's Tallest Building"), after which, the practice seemed to have died down, until Burj Khalifa (then called Burj Dubai) came along.

My questions are:

• Was it Burj Khalifa that started this trend of keeping final heights secret, or did another building start it?
• Why are most of these buildings in the Middle East?
• Were there any notable buildings or structures built after the Empire State Building but before the Burj Khalifa that kept their height a secret?
• Are there laws which require heights to be disclosed either to the public or to the government, to prevent engineering mismanagement?
• Are there any other buildings or structures aside from the aforementioned structures that keep or kept their height a secret?

Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 07:28, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

In the UK, and probably most other western nations, you would have to submit your plans for Planning Permission before you even started. Part of this process is that local people are asked if they have any objections to the plans, the hieght of the building would be a critical factor in this. The deliberations of the planning committee are public too. I suspect that the motivation is to prevent anyone building an even taller structure on the hurry-up, to claim the prestige of the world's tallest building. 11:15, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

In the UK at least it is, however, also possible to file for planning permission retroactively. One obviously can't build a skyscraper this way, but it's fairly common to file for retroactive permission for a modest change. This is intended to streamline the process when the change is relatively modest and unlikely to be controversial. For example, if one has permission to build a house on a brownfield site, and during preparation one discovers the remnants of an old cellar. This would necessitate removing some of that cellar, and a more extensive foundation to be poured. If the builder had to apply for an addendum to the building warrant, and pause works for a few weeks while it was considered, that would be a major expense. So they'll just do the work and concurrently file for retroactive planning consent. The risk is the consent will be denied, forcing them to undo what they did, but builders and architects know what planners will permit and what they won't. Clearly you and I couldn't just build another floor onto our house and file for permission retroactively, but the people who build skyscrapers are politically very well connected and influential (as you'd expect, given the amount of money they're pumping into the city). It's also likely that while they haven't filed for permission for the final features, they've informally run the final design past senior people in the planning authority who've confirmed it's not going to face a problem. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 12:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The Velocity Tower in Sheffield was built after its developers received planning permission for a 22-storey building. After construction was well underway, the developers applied for permission to build to 36 stories (having ensured that the work already undertaken met the required specifications). This was refused, although they were later granted permission to go up to 30 stories. As it happens, construction work stopped at 22 stories - but perhaps they will resume and go higher. It's a secret of sorts! Warofdreams talk 00:42, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

These Arab princes compete with each other with their buildings, they don't want to give the game away and they might be able to stick a little extra on the top to beat a rival if they learn their rivals intentions. Dmcq (talk) 00:40, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Making the campus green

I'm a student of Madras Christian College in Chennai, and we've been trying to raise awareness among the students about the importance of maintaining the campus and the unique scrub jungle in it. We've decided to conduct a survey that counts the trees in the campus, and identifies the number of each species there are. But we're all of us, novices. I know how birds are marked once they've been captured, but I have no idea how to mark a tree that's already been surveyed/counted. Is there any kind of marking system that doesn't harm the tree, and is at the same time, long-lasting, if not permanent, and weather-proof? Thanks in advance. =) 117.226.231.133 (talk) 08:47, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

It seems to be commonly done for conservation purposes, I found this report which is near my home in England. As for details of the tags themselves, I could only find this. It is probably better to get some proper advice; can I suggest that Indian organizations that you could contact are; Centre for Environmental Education (CEE), Centre for Science and Environment (CSE), and/or CPR Environmental Education Centre (C.P.Ramaswami Aiyar Foundation). Details are herte. Alansplodge (talk) 11:28, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Some type of exterior latex paint ought to be the cheapest solution, provided these trees don't shed their bark. Big paint cans might be rather inconvenient and prone to spills, so perhaps you could get it in smaller tubes. A serial number at eye level sounds like an adequate marking, to me. StuRat (talk) 19:26, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I've seen it done with ribbon of various kinds and colours depending on how long it's supposed to last. HiLo48 (talk) 19:37, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

At arboretums, I've seen it done with tags with a code number that you can record and possibly photograph, that way you can replace them if they go astray. Be careful not to use metal wires that might cut into the tree as it grows. Consult an arborist or a landscaper.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:37, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

GPS coordinates and online mapping like this college did: Calvin College Tree map Rmhermen (talk) 22:50, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Tennis tie-breaks. Which end to restart?

Various information sources state that "ends should be changed after a tie-break" but nowhere does it state whether this is a change from where the the tie-break started or where the tie-break finished. One source states that a tie-break is considered to be a service game of the player who was to serve the next "set"(or game presumably) after a 6-6 "finish" to a set. This would seem to support starting the next set according to how the tie-break was started and not how it finished. I need something in writing from an official or knowledgable source please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.71.207.140 (talk) 14:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

World War

Will the attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities by any nation signify the beginning of the Third World War? Is there any, is there any certain way to predict? Ninety eight years since the start of the First World War, could the Third World War begins? With the world watching the 46th American Football Super Bowl, today and any day would be a terrible day for such an attack. 17:11, 5 February 2012 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeremiahSpeaks (talk • contribs)

You're looking for opinions. See World War III. The world isn't watching the superbowl. --Ouro (blah blah) 18:38, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

As it states at the top of the page, we're not supposed to make predictions about future events, but I'm 100% sure that Israel would not incur the wrath of the United States by attacking today. Go Pats! Clarityfiend (talk) 18:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

To have a world war you need a roughly equal number of participants on each side. Who would join Iran's side and why ? Their only friends are other rogue nations like North Korea and Syria (Iran is Shiite and most other Muslim nations are Sunni, and they hate each other). Hardly a significant threat. StuRat (talk) 18:42, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Russia and China are pretty cosy with Iran, if you're looking for big allies. Just sayin'. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:21, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see either of those declaring war on Israel. They don't have any treaties requiring it or statements by their leaders, threatening it, AFAIK. If Israel attacks Iran, and Iran mines the strait to stop oil shipments out of the Gulf, I could see the US/NATO destroying the mine-laying ships and clearing the mines, but why would China object to that ? They need oil, too. (Russia might object, since they would like higher energy prices, being a net exporter, but I still don't see them going to war over it.) StuRat (talk) 22:31, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not saying it's terribly likely. I'm just saying that Iran has bigger allies than other pariah states. I think Russia and China would love to see the United States and Israel get bogged down in a war in Iran. I don't think they'd be dumb enough to participate in it overtly, although arguably having a pro-US, anti-Russia or anti-China regime in Iran could be negative for them. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:53, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I can't see the US invading Iran, that would just be too much to handle. At worst, if Iran attacked the fleet the US sent to keep the strait open, I would think the US would bomb Iran, and maybe do some commando raids on nuke sites to destroy those. StuRat (talk) 05:29, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

"The world" doesn't watch the Superbowl. The United States does. I'm reasonably sure it isn't even on television in other parts of the world. (I have an American friend in the UK who is complaining that he can only watch rugby today.) American football is not terribly popular outside of the United States.

As for starting a world war, there's no way to know. Doesn't seem likely, though. But World War I wasn't totally predictable ahead of time, either. Who would have guessed that the assassination of minor Austrian royalty visiting a minor Balkan state would be the spark that consumed 17 million lives and toppled two empires? World War II was a bit more predictable, by contrast. A general rule I like to keep in mind is that every time you go to war, a big dice is being rolled onto world history. Who comes out on top? Who comes out on bottom? What happens at the peripheries? These things are unknowable, and the changes come rapidly. It is one reason to be cautious about rushing into military confrontations. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:21, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The BBC did in fact (and has for a number of years) show the Superbowl yesterday on BBC one. The problem is that, due to the time difference, it didn't finish till 04:30 (hence I am planning to watch it online tonight at a more sociable time). Equisetum (talk | contributions) 11:04, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

That would be a big "die" (dice is plural). Also, weren't three empires taken down by WW1 ? Those would be the Ottoman Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Russian Empire. Perhaps you excluded the Ottoman Empire or Russia, since they weren't directly a result of WW1, but were an indirect result (and the Russian Empire didn't so much end as metastasize into the Soviet Union). StuRat (talk) 22:47, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I always forget about poor old Austria-Hungary. Three empires it is. I include Russia as the casualty. I consider the USSR to be something a bit different. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:53, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The German Empire was also dismantled by WWI. While there still existed a German nation state, it was stripped of its colonial posessions, lost significant territory in Europe, and was replaced by a republican government. We tend to focus on the fact that the Ottoman Empire and Russian Empire disappeared because the names changed (to "Turkey" and the "USSR"), but the German Empire also essentially disappeared, its just that its successor state had the same name, roughly speaking. --Jayron32 05:53, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

It was also the "thin edge of the wedge" for the British Empire. The Dominions' insistence on their right to independently decide on their participation in the war eventually resulted in the Statute of Westminster while the experience of various colonials under direct British command also inspired thoughts of unshackling chains. Roger (talk) 14:29, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

But the British Empire didn't start to break up seriously until after WW2. StuRat (talk) 21:42, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Sort of. The British granted "responsible government" and "dominion status" to many places well before World War II, and the Statute of Westminster 1931 made such dominions independent countries in their own right. The problem with the whole situation is that "Responsible Government" was code for "enough white people in charge"; British Empire possessions that had non-White people who wanted to be in charge had to wait until the British found it inconvenient to keep them colonies any longer. --Jayron32 05:39, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

And remember what Disraeli said in 1863: "Colonies do not cease to be colonies because they are independent." -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 09:55, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

The view that attacking Iran would start an world war seems to be promoted by conspiracy theorists. These (Chossudovsky) [ are] (Jones) examples. --SupernovaExplosion (talk) 06:30, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Where Can I Find Listing of Violators/Violations of US Fish & Wildlife Laws

I am looking for a listing of violations and violators cited by the US Fish & Wildlife Service. I am pretty sure this information is in the public domain, however my searches over several days have led me nowhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.59 (talk) 17:44, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Public domain doesn't necessarily mean they post that info online. You might have to file a Freedom of Information request to get it (I assume you are in the US). StuRat (talk) 18:45, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

You want a list of everybody who gets a ticket for fishing without a license or exceeding the catch limit? Good luck. Looie496 (talk) 00:54, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I was really looking for a specific individual from a specific state, but figured I could do a better search once I found where this data is available. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.19.14.39 (talk) 15:15, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Science fiction Authors

how do you add science fiction authors to file? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Claytonlmcnally (talk • contribs) 20:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Which "file"? Do you mean our article List of science fiction authors? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.42 (talk) 20:57, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Should you happen to be – or should you be a representative of – Clayton L. Mcnally, please be aware that Wikipedia generally requires there to be significant third-party coverage of a topic before we are likely to carry an article. The guideline at this link summarizes our general rules for covering creative professionals. Unfortunately, it does not appear that Mr. Mcnally's science fiction works have (yet) attracted significant attention, recognition, or critical commentary. In other words, there aren't enough independent, reliable sources out there for us to be able to create a neutral Wikipedia article about Mr. Mcnally or his works at this time. Independent coverage is particularly valuable for self-published authors, of which Mr. Mcnally appears to be one. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:59, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Advert removed

(advert removed) See talk page. Edison (talk) 21:56, 5 February 2012 (UTC)