Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2018 July 10

Welcome to the Wikipedia Miscellaneous Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

July 10

Brown vs. purple

Why is the color brown so common in nature yet purple is rare? The color brown is seen in many foods, on many animals, poop, dirt/soil, wood, coffee, chocolate, many burnt things, moles on people's skins, etc., etc. There are only few examples of color purple in nature, like on certain flowers. PlanetStar 00:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Tropical soil is often reddish. Hair and moles are melanin, brown poop color is from blood (indirectly, blood blood would make it red or black), perhaps it is brown for a chemically similar reason to oxidized iron and dry blood. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:53, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that poop color is from the blood (if poop is colored by blood, the poop would be red), it's from the bile containing a chemical that makes poop brown. I think the chemicals and pigments found in nature that make things brown are widespread, but the ones that make things purple are rare. Why and how the chemicals produce a chosen color, just the way it is, like why can't melanin itself make the skin or hair green or purple or blue. Or why can't chlorophyll make plant leaves brown or black or grey. And btw, coffee beans are actually green before they were roasted. PlanetStar 02:21, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Blood in faeces can appear in two colours. It will colour the stool black if it originates from the upper part of the digestive tract and has undergone digestive processes. The blood will be red if it originates from the large intestine or rectum where it has not undergone any digestive processes. This difference is important to clinicians in assisting diagnosis.

Our article confirms that the brown colour of feces is due to "a combination of bile, and bilirubin derivatives of stercobilin and urobilin, from dead red blood cells." And it is supported by a reference. Matt Deres (talk) 13:37, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Also, The Straight Dope covered it. —Tamfang (talk) 01:29, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Is purple really such a rare colour in nature? You mention flowers, where indeed it's one of the commonest colours, but it's also very common in fruits such as elderberries, bilberries, blackberries, damsons, mulberries, grapes, blackcurrants and plums. In some of those cases the colour of the ripe fruit is so dark as to border on black, but the unripe fruit is more obviously purple. Apparently it's all caused by anthocyanins. --Antiquary (talk) 09:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC) But admittedly, I never saw a purple cow. --Antiquary (talk) 10:33, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

See also purple emperor and violet ground beetle. There are however an awful lot of brown birds and animals; I think the answer may lie in camouflage. Alansplodge (talk) 11:42, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Just an observation from kindergarten: if you mix various colors together, you eventually and inevitably end up with -- brown. 2606:A000:1126:4CA:0:98F2:CFF6:1782 (talk) 18:01, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

That is my hunch. The result of many color inputs results in brown. A fewer number of color inputs would tend to result in colors other than brown. Bus stop (talk) 18:33, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Keep adding more colors ... and you'll get brown.  ;)  2606:A000:1126:4CA:0:98F2:CFF6:1782 (talk) 23:07, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Why is purple so rare in nature? How there are no country in the world have purple on its flag? PlanetStar 00:12, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Lead singers

This question is mainly about rock/pop groups, but could apply to other musical groups as well. What are the main challenges faced by the lead singer that are different from the other members of the band whose main focus is an instrument? 2001:44B8:20D:5B00:CC6F:58E4:4B07:1926 (talk) 02:00, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

At the very least, the lead singer needs to be able to sing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:27, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't even think that's true. See Listener.--WaltCip (talk) 12:14, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

They need charisma. Attention is focused on them. A musician can get by without it. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:51, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Or a notable lack of charisma. See Pet_Shop_Boys#Style_and_image and others. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:52, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

They need to be able to cope with microphones others singers have been using. When one sees how close to their mouths many singers hold the mic, it sure doesn't appeal to me. HiLo48 (talk) 09:56, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

This depends entirely on the difference between a studio band and a performance band. A studio band doesn't need much of a lead singer. As long as the person can sing, he or she is good enough. If it is a Disney production, the person doesn't even need to sing because everything is autotuned. For a performance band, the person needs to have charisma. Singing comes second. David Bowie is a prime example. He seethed charisma, but his singing was average at best. He is perhaps a poor lead singer for a band because he so much overshadows the band (see Tin Machine). Another anecdote from my early years in California: I met Nikki Sixx a few times, long before Motley Crue. He formed a band with a lead singer named Leon. He could sing, but he was about as exciting as watching a stick when he was on stage. They dropped him and got Vince Neil. He was exciting and the rest is history. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 11:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Please provide a reference supporting your claim that David Bowie was not a top-notch singer! Hayttom (talk) 03:28, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

It's complicated: ref1, ref2. Matt Deres (talk) 13:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

It's still a matter of opinion, though. You're welcome to your opinion, but we deal in facts here. --Viennese Waltz 14:23, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Ref2 is a fact. David Bowie factually stated (many times) that he had an average singing voice. It is his opinion that his voice was average, but his opinion should be enough to satisfy the request for a reference that he was not a "top-notch singer." If not, there are similar opinions by those he sang with, such as Mick Jagger and Freddy Mercury. 71.12.10.227 (talk) 19:02, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

My understanding is it's a bit of a myth that autotune is suitable for someone who "doesn't even need to sing" unless you use a very weird definition of sing to mean someone who does sing, but is average rather than someone who can't sing at all. Actually even average is not fair, especially if you are considering the general population. I suspect you have to be in the 1% or something. Auto-Tune is no magic. It works best if the singer is almost on pitch. (Well you could say always on pitch except then it isn't doing anything unless you're using it for effect.) Assuming you aren't talking about live work, you can try to improve things with more manual work and multiple takes but if someone can't sing at all, it's very difficult to auto-tune it into something that sounds correct unless you're intentionally aiming for something weird or unnatural.

See e.g. these examples [1] [2] which while clearly simplistic fooling around, shows what can happen. And frankly despite it saying those people are terrible singers, they seem closer to average and the drummer maybe even above average. And see also these discussions [3] [4].

This shouldn't be completely surprising, AFAIK it's still very common for Disney stuff to use real singers when the actor (whatever their gender) is a very poor singer. That said, this is a lot more common simply for soundtracks etc I believe, and it isn't uncommon for the real actor's singing to be used in the actual show, but this is probably partially reflective of the fact given the various work including theatre actors may be expected to perform, developing some level of singing is a frequent necessity. And as with a lot of skills, lot percentage of people can develop a decent level with training and practice. Especially if their primary job isn't singing, it's perhaps not completely surprising that auto-tune may then be used to do the rest. But if they don't have that good basic level, it's unlikely to work. (Of course as discussed in those sources and others e.g. [5] many who's primary job is singing do use it as well.)

To put it a different way, if you came to a studio and told them I can't sing and your singing prove it, they wouldn't say it's no problem since we can just auto-tune you. They will say either you need to learn to sing good enough so we can auto-tune you; or we will find someone else, at least for the singing parts.

Nil Einne (talk) 16:44, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Unless the singer is so bad that the "charisma" comes from that. Mrs. Miller, for example. Or Florence Foster Jenkins. Or, something I once saw on TV, Ethel Merman trying to sing "Gentle on My Mind". Or Roseanne Barr trying to sing "The Start-Spangled Banner". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:55, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Or "The Barr Strangled Spanner". Akld guy (talk) 00:27, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Almost as good as trying to use a kiosk at King's Cross where the instruction is "Start to begin". 46.208.78.215 (talk) 17:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Not as bad on a Windows 7 PC or earlier, where you click "Start" to Stop. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:53, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Which immediately starts me wondering if I would classify Mick Jagger as a great singer. HiLo48 (talk) 08:16, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I can see how a peculiarity in Windows UI could provoke questions about Mick. —Tamfang (talk) 01:42, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

A lead singer would have to be extroverted and be able to overcome any shyness as may be present in their personality. Bus stop (talk) 19:16, 11 July 2018 (UTC)