Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2024 January 26

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January 26

Asian sauces halal or not?

We have a student staying with us here in the US from the UAE and we’re doing halal food, or trying. I’ve gotten mixed answers looking at soy sauce, Lao gan ma, and other staples of our household. Sorta familiar with kashrut and OU, is there a similar certifying body for halal that’s, in Wikipedia speak, a similarly reliable source (i.e. broadly recognized as reliable and not fringe)?2601:601:A400:B5F5:E98F:8345:4FD:FCEE (talk) 01:25, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

There's no universal body. AFAIK, a lot of halal certification is done at a local level with some body from the place of production. Some may be done on import, but I think most of this relies on mutual recognition of certifying bodies. However sometimes, I guess either because of the lack of a local body or due to a lack of interest directly from the manufacturer you may get weird things e.g. made in Japan Kikkoman being certified by the body from the Netherlands [1].

Unfortunately where it might get complicated is ensuring there aren't multiple production lines where things might not be entirely the same and therefore despite X being halal when sold in Y, it might not be in Z. For example, I suspect most soy sauce sold in Malaysia and Indonesia is halal (although not all, I'd still check). However this doesn't guarantee the same for the same product sold elsewhere. If the bottle you have has a halal certification label on it, then it's quite likely fine assuming the person it's intended for is fine with that body but otherwise it's less clear. For major worldwide manufacturers e.g. Lee Kum Kee I expect you can probably ask them whether a specific product is halal and if it has any certifications. For more minor ones, this might not work.

Lao gan ma seems to fall into a grey area. For example their basic product of chilli oil is sold in Malaysia and doesn't seem to be sold as non halal [2] [3]. Some of their other products are fermented to might cause concern although from what I can tell, for products like that it's generally accepted the amount of alcohol is low enough that it's not a concern; and the other ingredients are not a concern. So most of these products going from a purely ingredient perspective might not even require certification.

But a bigger issue is that lao gan ma also produces products with pork in them. If these are produced in the same facilities this might be seen as a problem. [4]

Nil Einne (talk) 06:27, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Note that assuming this student is an adult, it's IMO worth speaking to them about the issues. For example, if these Asian sauces have been used to produced common Chinese foods where pork is common, AFAIK the same concerns apply. According so strict interpretations, the equipment might need to be cleaned 7 times including once with earth [5]. (The alternative is to use separate equipment.) However AFAIK most Muslims in places where there is not a Muslim majority do not follow such strict interpretations considering them too unreasonable and may be fine with a single clean. If not following such strict interpretations in home preparation, I suspect many also won't feel the need to impose them on food manufacturers. Edit: To be clear even in Muslim majority countries plenty of people don't follow such strict interpretations

Nil Einne (talk) 06:45, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

It's possible this might be of interest [6] although I think it comes from a Malaysian perspective. Anyway I mostly wanted to add that there are halal certification bodies in Mainland China which I think are reasonably recognised, as evidenced there and which you sometimes see on products from China. If you can read Chinese, it might be worth looking into whether any of these have said anything about lao gan ma. Nil Einne (talk) 06:54, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I forgot to add that lao gan ma products containing meats besides pork are still likely to be a problem because I suspect there are not halal slaughtered. However per the earlier link, I think these are only a problem for those particular products. They may not raise the same concerns about equipment re-use in production. Also I might as well include a link to this review of food additives. While more of interest to manufacturers and certification bodies, perhaps it's still useful to give one perspective of what ingredients in a product might be a problem and why [7] Nil Einne (talk) 07:01, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Name of road formation

I'm wondering if there is a formal or technical name for this situation. Eastwest St. crosses Northsouth St. If you're westbound on Eastwest there are two lanes. When you reach Northsouth, neither of those lanes are designated for turning, but almost immediately after crossing Northsouth, one of the lanes is discontinued. Like, within 20 or 30 meters of the intersection. I hate this situation because it encourages drivers in the right lane to speed like hell through the intersection and cut off the people that were in the proper lane for continuing west. A more logical and safer choice would be to make the right lane a turning lane and not have that niggling bit of roadway on the other side of the intersection (or expand the road all the way). But is there a name for that niggling bit or for the broader situation? I plan to raise the issue with the city and want to use the proper jargon if it exists. Thanks! Matt Deres (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Is Eastwest St. a two-way street? If so, what are eastbound drivers supposed to do? Also, if a westbound driver who is unfamiliar with the situation crosses Northsouth St. in the wrong lane (whichever lane that is) and approaches its end, how difficult is it to merge into the other lane?  --Lambiam 21:44, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

There are two westbound lanes. There are two eastbound lanes as well, but they're not germane to the question. Matt Deres (talk) 18:02, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand the concept of "the proper lane for continuing west". Aren't they both proper lanes for continuing west? HiLo48 (talk) 00:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

In this example, the right lane ends, so only the left lane remains to continue west. RudolfRed (talk) 04:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

But vehicles in the right lane have every right to continue west, so long as they merge correctly. Your issue seems to be with laws and behaviour to do with merging. HiLo48 (talk) 05:47, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, yeah, hence my statement about trying to change it. I don't think you're picturing how the situation plays out in real-life. At a red light, both lanes fill up with traffic (if the cars in the right lane are turning right, they may do so, but the first vehicle that doesn't want to turn will trigger a log jam). When the light changes, the folks in the right lane know they have only a short distance to change lanes and the left lane is already full of cars. This isn't like a highway where there's kilometers of space, generally less congestion, and a presumption of needing to cooperate (as when you merge on). Cars on the left obviously have right of way to stay in their own lane, but the situation encourages those on the right to force their way over. In my opinion, the merging should take place further back, where there's space to safely do so. By the time they reach the intersection, folks in the right lane should be turning right. Matt Deres (talk) 18:17, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Could drivers on the left show better manners? HiLo48 (talk) 03:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Sidra Intersection's glossary calls the niggling bit simply a 'short lane', googling around a bit 'downstream merge' or 'downstream lane drop'. This report i think diagrams your situation in Fig. 1, but i can't if a right turn is allowed from Eastwest from your description. fiveby(zero) 04:31, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@Matt Deres: Usually short bits of road after an intersection are used as a merge lane or acceleration lane, so that drivers turning right from from Northsouth St onto westbound Eastwest St have some room to merge/accelerate before getting to the main travel lane going west. RudolfRed (talk) 04:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I think I am assuming some U.S. centric behavior in describing this, but hopefully it is still clear on the intent of the stub lane. RudolfRed (talk) 04:43, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Can someone from the Big Orange tell us if this is still true of Laurel Canyon Blvd southbound at Mulholland Drive? (Made worse because a driver unacquainted with that road cannot see over the crest!) —Tamfang (talk) 00:02, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Maybe this will help illustrate the situation. Matt Deres (talk) 18:29, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Are there traffic lights on this intersection? With so many lanes, I would guess so, but I'm not sure what you do in Canada.

From my experience in Auckland, this sort of thing is hardly uncommon at traffic lights. Indeed sometimes a lane will intentionally split into two sometime before the traffic light, with straight through traffic allowed in both lanes, and then merge again sometime after. (Sometimes the left lane will be left turning only, to be clear, we drive on the left so this is a right turn for Canada. Of course you also get a new lane for right turning traffic sometimes although since we still have a lot of median strips, it's quite common it's just part of the median strip.)

I assume this is based on some evidence or at least a belief that having two lanes increases throughput through the intersection even with the merge needed after. Note that despite a recent push in the other direction, a lot of NZ's roads are optimised more for throughput/traffic speeds than for safety although I think that's common in Canada too albeit maybe a bit less than in the US.

Regarding HiLo48's point above, from my experience in Auckland it's quite common that roads like I describe have a merge as two lanes merging into one rather than one lane ending. This makes it clearer that both sides ideally should treat each lane fair and try to merge like zip. Plenty of Kiwi drivers are not that good at this, still they're better than I think most Malaysian drivers would be where there tends to be much more of a 'I come first' attitude.

It sounds like this might also be a thing in Australia [8] although it's not clear to me if the merges there are two into one or a lane ending. (One commentator suggests they're lane ending type.)

Nil Einne (talk) 09:54, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

The maximum throughput of a road is reached at about 50 km/h (it depends quite a bit on safe driving attitude and average vehicle length). The speed on the intersection is slower, so throughput of a single lane on the junction is less than that of a single lane a few hectometres away. What's more, traffic on the junction is intermittent. Adding a lane just for the junction makes sense. In my country (NL, Europe), this extra lane for straight-going traffic usually starts about a hectometre before the junction and terminates about a hectometre after it. Drivers see it as an opportunity to overtake slowly accelerating lorries. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:21, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

For information: 1 hectometre (100 m; 110 yd) Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:41, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Also known as half a furlong. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:14, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Then why didn't you say "a furlong or two" back and we'd all know what you meant. :-) Seriously, explaining the hectametre wasn't meant sarcastically, I had to look it up. It's bad enough converting SI units to (to me) meaningful distances, but the old metric units from the 19thC get me beat, as I suspect it would many UK or USA readers. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:13, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I know, the hectometre (and the hecto- prefix, which is the actual thing to remember) isn't the most commonly used metric unit. The distance markers put along our roads every 100 metres are generally known here as hectometre poles. It is an official SI unit. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:54, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

There isn't a specific name for this design. TLLT (two-lane left turn) is about all you will see abbreviated in road planning. It does have a clear purpose though. In a suburban area, it is common to have a one-lane road. Let's call that the east-west road. It intersects with a road (we don't care how many lanes it has) going north-south. There is a traffic light there. The traffic waiting on the north-south road to turn left on the east-west road keeps backing up to the point that it causes a lot of other traffic problems. One solution: Give the left turn a lot more green to clear it out regularly, backing everyone else up. Another solution, make two left turn lanes to reduce the length of the backup waiting to turn left. It is the same number of cars, but they don't extend back as far. But, you don't want to make the east-west road a two lane road. So, you give it two lanes just long enough to accept the two incoming left turn lanes. Then, they merge. Humans should comprehend this setup. They should alternate merge. Everyone should be happy. But, they aren't. Humans are actually very selfish, stupid, and vindictive. So, they see it as a competition to beat one another for a very short feeling of being superior to some stranger. Next topic: Why can't Americans use a traffic circle? 75.136.148.8 (talk) 12:11, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

As a further observation: when a similar merging situation exists in the UK, usually about one in two or three drivers in the outer lane will slow down to create a space for someone in the inner lane to merge into, and will often signal by headlight flashes or gestures that they should do so. Every driver benefits from this courtesy from time to time, so most are happy to provide it.

This behaviour is encouraged, though not mandated, in our Highway Code. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.103.187 (talk) 18:45, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Drivers of a BMW (or other expensive German cars) are, of course, exempted from any form of politeness to other road-users. Alansplodge (talk) 16:51, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, in the UK, people can queue. In the US, it is a mob rush to tranple everyone else in sight. Once, in Cardiff, I had to run to the shop to pick up a jar of pickles. When I came to the queue with just one jar in my hand, the people in line asked me to go ahead because they all had full baskets. That would never ever happen in the US. Instead, I would go to the 10-items or less fast lane and wait behind a line of people, each with far more than 10 items. Place the American ego in a vastly oversized steel machine and it becomes a raging behemoth eager to devour everyone. I try to teach my children to feel sorry for them. If risking injury to cut in front of someone on the road truly makes them feel better, they certainly have a very low opinion of themselves. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 19:45, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

These short lanes are also used at roundabouts. See for example this one or this one: turboroundabouts with double lane exits, narrowing to single lane after a hectometre (1/2 furlong). PiusImpavidus (talk) 20:30, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

In the U.S., it is officially referred to as a "merge area" and if there is no merging lane, there is supposed to be a yellow rectangular sign that states "NO MERGE AREA" along with a diamond arrow sign indicating the merge pattern. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 15:52, 30 January 2024 (UTC)