Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2024 July 30

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July 30

National Identity perceived

Hello. Small curiosity; I don't know if a census was taken at the time or something, but when England won the World Cup in 1966, what was the perceived national identity in the country that year, (England alone); did people describe themselves as more English or more British? Thank you very much. 2.45.43.119 (talk) 12:51, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Identifying as English or British is not exclusive of one another. A person can authentically identify as both. It is based on need. Your IP looks up to the United States, so in a American sense, a person can identify as Cajun, Louisianian, and American all at the same time, with none of those identities taking away from another identity or being more of an identity than any other identity. It is based on need. If asked for identity while in New Orleans, the person would likely claim to be Cajun. If asked for an identity at the Delta hub in Atlanta, the person might identify as Louisianian. If asked for identity at the Olymics in France, the person might identify as American. Similarly, a person might identify as English while in Britain, but as British while outside Britain, and even go further to identify as a Londoner if in Manchester. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 17:16, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

The English/British nationality issue is complex and evolving, but my impression (I was 8 in 1966) was that English and British were used interchangeably by English people in the 1960s. Note that there was no question about ethnicity in the UK census until the 1991 United Kingdom census and then "White British" was the only option for "indigenous" people (for want of a better term).

For the current situation, see National identity, England and Wales: Census 2021 Alansplodge (talk) 18:16, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Alansplodge: I'm only a couple of years older than you, but certainly we were taught the difference between British and English. Possibly a north/south or London/rest of the UK issue? We lived in Yorkshire and I'm of mixed Yorkshire/Scottish parentage.

One can have been taught the distinction and yet use the terms interchangeably in informal speech.  --Lambiam 08:35, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

It is important to note (as no article should ever say) that the modern precise use of these words was elided in the past by metonymy and other close concepts. The precise concept would have been considered clear by context. You will find in some older texts free use of England for Britain (perhaps also the English identity was smudged into British more than others), and Britain (or even England) for the British Empire or Commonwealth.

Nonetheless by the sixties this usage was obsolete as far as I know. I certainly knew growing up in this era that I was English and British (and European), though it was primarily a factual matter. When we visited our Swiss friends to watch Jeux son frontier we cheered the British and Swiss teams equally. In the event that a non-English British team won something we thought this was a good thing.

I'm inclined to believe that most of the English have no trouble identifying as British, even after an English sporting success.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 13:58, 1 August 2024 (UTC).

Although a Londoner, my parents were Scottish and Cornish, so I was well aware of the difference between English and British, but my impression was/is that not everyone was so particular in the 1960s. Witness the number of Union Jacks at Wembley. By way of a reference, I found:

In the 1970s and 1980s, it became clear that Britain is a multi-national state... England is the dominant region by far; therefore, the English saw little distinction between "English" and "British".

A History of the Peoples of the British Isles: From 1870 to the Present by Thomas Heyck (2019) p. 285

Alansplodge (talk) 19:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)