Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2017 March 24

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March 24

To disinfect with alcohol or not after a bite from dog?

I've listen to lecture today where the professor said that it's forbidden to disinfect the location of the bite with alcohol (in case of suspicion for rabies). As for the reason he wasn't really clear. Moreover, by googling I found that in the site health minstry of Israel they recommend to disinfect with alcohol. What's going on here? Apparently one of them is not right. 93.126.88.30 (talk) 04:24, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

The WHO and other sources [1] [2] [3] recommend thorough washing and flushing (10-15 minutes) with soap and water immediately and before any cleaning/disinfecting with alcohol. If no soap is available just use water. Nil Einne (talk) 04:38, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Forbidden? There is no legal legistration any where in the world where it is legally forbidden to clean a wound with alcohol. Perhaps the professor is refering to Islam where it is forbidden to consume alcohol but even then consume means to drink and it does not mean you cannot use alcohol for medical disinfectant purposes. Look at this link [[4]]. No wonder your professor thinks that alcohol is the most evil "thing" in the world, where even touching or smelling a little bit of alcohol is enough to turn you into the spawn of satan. 148.182.26.69 (talk) 04:59, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

That would also be ignorance on their part, as rubbing alcohol is basically a poison which is not intended to be consumed by mouth. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:44, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Given that the OP is in the Ukraine the use of "forbidden" is probably due to English not being their first language. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 00:08, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Your best bet is to call your doctor (before you get bitten) and ask how to treat a dog bite. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:44, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

"Doc, I plan to taunt the neighbor's pit bull then jump over the barbed wire fence, into his yard. How should I treat the bites, if I survive ?" StuRat (talk) 06:38, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Or, "Doc/nurse/receptionist, I'm curious whether a dog bite can or should be treated with rubbing alcohol?" "Have you been bitten?" "No, but there's vicious-looking Chihuahua living nextdoor, and I want to be proactive." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:35, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

"Wear long pants and buy a cat". Count Iblis (talk) 23:01, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

The general medical advice is not to use alcohol or other antiseptics to clean open wounds, as they can actually cause more damage to the tissue. The NHS website - http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1054.aspx?CategoryID=72& - says to use cold water, saline solution, or a non-alcohol wipe. If you are dealing with someone else's wound, then you might use a bit of alcohol to sterilise your own hands before touching the wound. Wymspen (talk) 11:56, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. And as far as rabies is concerned alcohol has little effect on most viruses. Just do what is said there, the bleeding while you're washing it out gives a far better chance of getting rid of anything - a dog's mouth isn't a very clean place at the best of times. Dmcq (talk) 12:15, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

That depends on the virus, doesn't it? I have the notion that viruses dependent on a viral envelope can be killed ("inactivated" if you prefer; I don't) by alcohol. Specifically that's supposed to be why hand sanitizers are useful in limiting the spread of influenza. I think. Let me know if I have that wrong. --Trovatore (talk) 20:57, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Sorry yes you're right and rabies is enveloped - however I see that even though isopropyl alcohol can kill rabies ethanol isn't very effective - since hand sanitizers can use either or something else one can't depend on them. The WHO advice is best. Dmcq (talk) 23:13, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Interesting. Any idea why they would be different? --Trovatore (talk) 23:45, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Right, although isopropyl alcohol being much more toxic, is not recommended to put directly in contact with large wounds (also inadequate for mouth rinse). It also has other properties, it can even be used to wash off glue residues and various types of persistent inks, which ethanol is not particularily good for... PaleoNeonate (talk) 00:57, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Is it "much more toxic"? I mean, it is orally, sure — causes "gastric distress" as it says on the label. But on a wound? I'd never heard that. Do you have a link? --Trovatore (talk) 01:21, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

I'd have to search from isopropyl alcohol myself probably; however I have a bottle here with 70% content and warning to not put in contact with mucous membranes. PaleoNeonate (talk) 01:26, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

You don't want to be putting 140-proof grain alcohol on too many mucous membranes either. --Trovatore (talk)

Hmm so unless those tables are wrong, ethanol would have an LD50 (oral, rat) of 7060 mg/kg and isopropanol would have an LD50 (oral, rat) of 5045 mg/kg. Although this shows that it is more toxic, it's not as different as I had anticipated, and of course there are other factors, metabolization being complex... [5], [6], Median_lethal_dose. PaleoNeonate (talk) 02:05, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

And the best part is that to treat wood alcohol poisoning, giving the patient grain alcohol works in a pinch. One of the toxic metabolites of isopropanol is rate limited and the presence of ethanol slows the production of the toxic chemical. Giving them a beer can mean the difference between blindness and sight. --DHeyward (talk) 03:28, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Right idea, wrong alcohol. Wood alcohol is actually methanol; that's the one that makes you go blind. Isopropanol mostly gives you a tummy upset, I think.

Methanol gets metabolized to two nasty substances, formaldehyde and formic acid. I'm not sure what happens to isopropanol, but if it follows the same pathway, it seems like it should turn into acetone, which isn't that bad (it's part of some normal metabolic pathways anyway). --Trovatore (talk) 04:44, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Actually maybe DHeyward meant to type "methanol" but typed "isopropanol" by mistake because it was under discussion. That would make the comment make perfect sense. --Trovatore (talk) 20:33, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

I see Rabies#Treatment says basically the same thing as the WHO above. Alcohol or iodine is used at the end as it may clear up some remaining virus. Dmcq (talk) 12:24, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Alcohol or iodine can still be used to disinfect the intact skin around the wound to prevent a secondary infection. Ruslik_Zero 20:43, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

01:32, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Disinfect is overrated. Dog bites hurt and that is a two shot minimum. Wait 30 minutes and if there is still pain, throwback another 2 shot. Continue until pain is resolved. --DHeyward (talk) 21:11, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

That might be characterized as giving "medicinal" advice. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:00, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

"Old Medicine, it's down right barbaric! Dialisis, Chemotherapy, drillin' holes in peoples heads, it's like the Goddamn Spanish Inquisition!" PaleoNeonate (talk) 01:02, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Friends, thank you for your comments. I would like to add that the professor is not Muslim but he is Christian, anyway he's not against alcohol as someone said here. If I understood him correctly then he said that when alcohol is applied on the place of the bite, then the alcohol has an effect of immunosuppression and interrupt to kill the viruses. But I'd not think that he's the best professor to study from him. I found already some mistakes in his things in the past and that's why I came here to ask. 93.126.88.30 (talk) 02:15, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Madstones were at one time advocated in suspected cases of bites by a mad dog, before Pasteur developed the rabies vaccine which actually works. Edison (talk) 02:18, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Apparently no one linked our animal bite article. See the "Treatment" section. Note that antibiotics are recommended for dog and cat bites of the hand, and possibly other bites if there is a high risk of infection. Also tetanus prophylaxis may be indicated. You should see a medical professional for anything more than a superficial bite. As some of the above replies have noted, the general advice for non-major wounds has shifted towards just cleaning with soap and water. Antiseptics like alcohol don't appear to be any better, and may cause more complications. --47.138.161.183 (talk) 23:41, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

The use of alcohol as a disinfectant is not not necessarily forbidden in Islam "the Muslim Judicial Council of South Africa has issued written permission regarding the use of alcohol not produced as a result of fermentation for the specific purpose of disinfecting the hands. In addition, due various health concerns during Hajj (religious pilgrimages to Mecca and Medina), in 2002 the World Muslim League in Mecca issued a fatwa allowing the use of alcohol based hand sanitizers. During this year’s Hajj, Saudi Deputy Health Minister Dr. Ziad Memish reiterated that Saudi senior religious leaders deem alcohol-based sanitizers acceptable" [7]. Richerman (talk) 00:15, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

WHO

What is the date and time of the vote for Director-General of the World Health Organization? Many sources indicate it is in May, but I have yet to see any specific date or time. 147.126.10.21 (talk) 23:41, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

It does not appear to have a set date. The sources note that the actual vote will occur sometime during the World Health Assembly in May, 2017 (see here for one example). The World Health Assembly is a parliamentary body, so elections held in that body probably follow along with standard rules of order, whereby a candidate would be nominated via a motion, seconded, the floor opened for debate and then a formal vote held, and the motion either passes or fails. There does not appear to be any published schedule yet on when the plan to make the formal motion is, there may not yet be. The closest we have is here which notes the next World Health Assembly will occur 22-31 May 2017. --Jayron32 17:38, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for all the helpful information. 147.126.10.129 (talk) 01:52, 28 March 2017 (UTC)