Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2019 January 16

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January 16

Do people who get an orchiectomy tend to experience weight gain afterwards?

Do people who get an orchiectomy tend to experience weight gain afterwards?

Also, is this experience different for people who got an orchiectomy and who go on testosterone HRT as opposed to going on estrogen HRT or not going on HRT at all? Futurist110 (talk) 02:16, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

You don’t say whether you are asking about an orchidectomy which has removed one or both testes. Having searched “weight gain after orchidectomy“ it seems that weight gain is a recognised after effect. I have been unable to find any quantative value for this so we can only assume that some people do and others don’t. If this is a personal issue then you really ought to talk to your family physician or surgeon about this. I hope this is a more helpful response than the previous poster. Richard Avery (talk) 11:24, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, now I see that you are referring to a bilateral orchidectomy. Richard Avery (talk) 11:26, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

This article suggests that testosterone replacement therapy is commonly used to counteract unwanted side effects. Alansplodge (talk) 13:54, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Sources on the inventor of the railroad switch

Dear Users, I am a user of Wikipedia in Italian, and I write mainly about the history of the railways

With another user I started the revision and integration of the item Scambio or Deviatoio, en Railroad switch.

In the course of my research I read in an Italian technical encyclopedia of the nineteenth century that the switch, as it is now used all over the world, invented by a certain Lorentz, that the consulted source defines "American" (in the Italian bibliography synonymous of "United States of America").

Here is the text: Questo è lo scambio adottato oggidì in tutta Europa e introdotto da non molto tempo negli Stati Uniti da Lorentz, che vi ha apposto il suo nome." Engl. transl: “This is the switch applied today throughout Europe and recently introduced in the United States by Lorentz, who has affixed his name to it.”

Source: C. Saviotti, Ferrovie, in Enciclopedia delle arti ed industrie, compilata colla direzione dell'ingegnere m.se Raffaele Pareto e del cav. ingegnere Giovanni Sacheri, Torino, UTET, 1882, vol. 3°, pages. 449-529; page. 487, § "Scambi", §§ "Scambio ad aghi".

So far I have not been able to find other sources to define who Lorentz was and when and under what circumstances he invented the switch.

Can you suggest to whom to ask or indicate me libraries, archives or scientific societies to ask?

Thank you so much.

Greetings from Italy, --Alessandro Crisafulli (talk) 11:36, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

At the inception of railways, sliding rails were used to connect one track to another [1]. These fell out of use after the patenting of an automatic switch [2]. These switches were already in use in America by 1846 [3]. See Railroad switch#History, where "Fox's patent switch" (1832) is mentioned. 2A00:23C2:2400:9600:399A:40EB:C465:27D3 (talk) 14:29, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

• Wood, Nicholas (1825). A Practical Treatise on Rail-roads and Interior Communication in General. London:Knight & Lacey. would be one place to start looking. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:18, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Controversy about Jeanne Calment's date of death and age

There is some controversy regarding Jeanne Calment, about whether she really died at the age of 122, or if her daughter impersonated her (assumed her identity) for tax purposes. It was stated that the only way to resolve the question is through exhumation of both bodies. Assuming that they exhume both bodies, what exactly would this resolve? How would that resolve the question? I am assuming this might have something to do with DNA? If they do take DNA samples, would not that assume that "they" also have DNA samples from when both women were living, in order to conduct a comparison? And, if so, how likely/feasible is it, that they would actually have DNA samples "on file"? I am not sure how an exhumation will resolve the questions in this matter. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 12:49, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Can you provide a link to this so-called controversy? I would want to ask them, "How would the mother have died and been buried without anyone noticing it?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:04, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs: This is very common knowledge. Just check out the Jeanne Calment page and its Talk Page. Also, you can check out the List of the verified oldest people article -- and similar articles -- and their Talk Pages. This theory or hypothesis has caused quite the uproar, since the new year began. As to your question about "how would people not notice?" ... the simple answer is that it was supposedly a "scam" or a "fraud" -- and an illegal one, at that -- so the participants in the fraud pretty much kept mum. I found a detailed article that explained how this was quite feasible, even though it sounds implausible, at first blush. I will see if I can find the link to that article. Also, they did notice that "someone" died and was buried (obviously). But, authorities -- and the general folks, also -- were misled as to the identity of the person who had just died and was buried. Hence, the "scam" / fraud. All allegedly. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:32, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Here is one link: Jeanne Calment: the secret of longevity, by Nikolay Zak, Moscow, December 2018. I believe this is the research paper that started the whole controversy. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:57, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Another link: J’Accuse…! Why Jeanne Calment’s 122-year old longevity record may be fake. This one explains how and why the fraud was perpetrated. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:26, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Interesting hypothesis, with plenty of built-in assumptions. What I'm wondering now is, what would be the legal justification for an exhumation? Is France looking to get its tax money after 80-plus years? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:33, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs: I dunno. Do they even need a "legal justification"? In the USA, anyone can exhume a body if, for example, they want to move the burial site. I am sure that France can -- if they want to and if they "need" to -- cite some law about fraud, or tax fraud, or tax evasion, or larceny, or lying to authorities, or falsification of government records, or what have you (etc.). It's unlikely, I think, that the French government would actually take this on, as a matter of PR (public relations), even if they would be "legally justified". Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:36, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Generally speaking in the US at least, there are laws regulating these matters, such as moving a body from one cemetery to another, for which a permit would be required. As far as doing something to the body itself, such as an autopsy, you would need permission and have a good reason, e.g. that there's a reasonable suspicion of a crime being involved. (Maybe you recall the brouhaha about exhuming and autopsying the body of President Zachary Taylor some years back, to find out whether he'd been poisoned.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:48, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, yes. There are certain legal hoops to go through. And, perhaps, a lot of them. But, if you wanted to move a decedent from one grave to another, I am sure that you are allowed to. I don't think you need a "legally justified reason". (This is in the USA.) Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:48, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Joseph, how does DNA relate to mother-daughter distinguishing?? One notable DNA that's the same in mothers and daughters is mitochondrial DNA. Yvonne and Jeanne have the same mitochondrial DNA, as does Jeanne Calment's mother. What DNA difference between Yvonne and Jeanne is there?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:28, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I have no idea. That is why I came to ask this question on this page. I heard that "exhumation would resolve the issue", and I did not understand why or how. Hence, my question. My assumption about DNA was as follows: They had a sample of DNA from when the mother was alive. They had a sample of DNA from when the daughter was alive. After exhumation, they would take a sample from both decedents. And compare those (current) DNA samples with the "old" samples on file. And, hence, they can see which decedent "matched" which identity. But, I doubted that -- as a general rule -- deceased people have their DNA "on file" somewhere. But, who knows? It was the only thing I could think of. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:42, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Presumably, because math works, there would be only be 50% of the nuclear DNA in common between Jeanne and her Mother. --Jayron32 15:16, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Can anyone explain exactly how?? Please include what statements P and Q are, defining them as follows:

• If exhumation reveals statement P, then Jeanne Calment's longevity is real.
• If exhumation reveals statement Q, then the November 2018 theory on Jeanne Calment is real.

Georgia guy (talk) 15:18, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Possibly the issue that is being missed here is that there seems to be limited dispute that one is the mother and one is the daughter. The question is which is which. IMO it would be possible to distinguish to a high degree of confidence with sufficient coverage, but it would probably be far simpler to obtain the DNA of some other relative and use that as a guide. Nil Einne (talk) 15:56, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

If exhumation reveals that the body of Jeanne Calumet died on or about August 1997, then Jeanne Calment's longevity is real. If exhumation reveals that the body expired at a much earlier date, then the November 2018 theory on Jeanne Calment is real. This would be the realm of a forensic pathologist, who is trained in techniques to estimate time of death based on any number of tests they may do. --Jayron32 17:09, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

@Jayron32: Doesn't your above reply miss the whole point? They exhume a body. How do they know if they are exhuming the mother or the daughter? Hence, how does exhumation resolve this question? Or, perhaps, I am missing something here? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:47, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes that's what I'm trying to get at. AFAICT, the question here is not whether they are mother and daughter. It's which one is the mother and which one is the daughter of the two candidates. As I said I think it would probably be possible to decide with a high degree of confidence with significant coverage but IMO it would be far simpler to simply test another relative as well. I did have a look just now unfortunately this isn't easy to search at least it wasn't for me since you get a lot of basic and other stuff like differentiating between a sibling and child or siblings as parental candidates and of course basic stuff about parent - child DNA testing. Of course this sort of thing rarely arises. You're either doing geneogical testing or relationship testing etc. Even in forensic testing I imagine it's rare to not use something else. Nil Einne (talk) 19:01, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Well, forensic pathology can also deduce age at death. If the body was of a 122 year old woman who has been in the ground for 22 years, it's her body. If it's something else, then it's something else. --Jayron32 20:52, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I missed the part about forensic pathology earlier but I find it doubtful we can reliably determine of someone is 122 or 99 not least because of the lack of good data. And remember that is the question not whether she is a 122 year old woman or something else very different. We would have a far better chance of differentiating a 59 year old and a 36 year old except that the remains could be fairly degraded. I still think of you're going to go to all the trouble of exhuming both mother/daughter and daughter/mother you'll be better off just finding some other sample. Especially since the daughter/mother body is likely to be fairly degraded for DNA too. This suggest the daughter/mother, father or husband, grandson or son and I presume now mother/daughter are all in the family tomb [4]. Note I'm not saying this should be done simply of were. Nil Einne (talk) 04:58, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

I had a quick look and found [5] I haven't read the article but the summary provides info which sort of tallies with my expectation and seems to IMO support my view that forensic pathology methods may not be sufficient:

The highest accuracy was in the 31-60 age category (74.7% with the 10-year range), and the skin seemed to be the most reliable age parameter (71.5% of accuracy when observed), while the face was considered most frequently, in 92.4% of cases. A simple formula with the general "mean of averages" in the range given by the observers and related standard deviations was then developed; the average values with standard deviations of 4.62 lead to age estimation with ranges of some 20 years that seem to be fairly reliable and suitable, sometimes in alignment with classic anthropological methods, in the age estimation of well-preserved corpses.

20 years may be slightly over the age differences, and of course we have an expected age to compare to. But considering the issues (very advance age for one, likely degraded remains for the other), I'm not convinced any conclusion would be sufficiently reliable. (Of course even if it is, I doubt that it will be accepted many of the doubters.)

I admit I forgot until now the fact we aren't talking about random unrelated individuals here but mother and daughter (related and for a chunk of their lives probably similar diets and to some extent lifestyles) could affect things. However I still expect considering the widely different death dates, and ages at time of death, it would be difficult to conclude solely from the pathology, which one was the mother and which one was the daughter. If they had both died on or around the same day sure you could probably say. But when one died in 1936 either at the age of ~36 or ~59 and the other died in 1997 either at the age of 122 or 99, well not so much.....

Nil Einne (talk) 11:31, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Also, regarding the answer to your question "What DNA difference between Yvonne and Jeanne is there??", the answer I gave was that there would be only 50% in common between them. You asked "How?" The answer is that Yvonne Calment would have had two parents; Jeanne and her husband Fernand would be those two people. See, Geography guy, when a man and a woman love each other very much, and decide to make a baby, 50% of the nuclear DNA from each parent goes on to make the child. That's how Yvonne would share 50% of Jeanne's DNA. The article DNA profiling explains how this works in some more detail. --Jayron32 17:14, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

This DNA-testing is irrelevant. They're not trying to prove whether the mother-daughter are related. The question is whether the daughter impersonated her mother after her mother's death. I have a picture of Jeanne Calment at age 60, if she were the mother then the year would be 1935. If the person of the photo were the daughter, then the year would be 1956. Maybe that's a start. Tell that to Ryoung122 and all those other affiliated. (Has it already been discussed before?) There is a mother-daughter pic in that French book about her life too. 12.239.13.143 (talk) 18:23, 16 January 2019 (UTC).

Apart form DNA-based methods, this method can also be used. Count Iblis (talk) 18:51, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

• Interesting article, thanks. But the method only works for people born after the Cold War started. --76.69.46.228 (talk) 07:49, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

You know what, the Jeanne Calment confusion should be easily solved. Remember at the end of a Vincent Van Gogh documentary, a woman comes out says to be Jeanne Calment and mistakenly says her age by a little bit, which was 1956, where she allegedly 81. I think that and the other photo at age 60 - either 1935 or 1956, should easily prove whether the person is the mother or daughter, right? 12.239.13.143 (talk) 19:57, 16 January 2019 (UTC).

What do you mean by "says her age by a little bit"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:11, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Bah, at the end of the movie Lust for Life (film) the actor Kirk Douglas talks to random village women and 1 of them claims she met him in person and he asks her age. The whole thing is in French. However, someone commented in English that she didn't say her age of 81. Right now I can't find the video on YouTube or Google. But now I'm thinking, I'm relooking at the photo of mother and daughter and it seems the 60 year-old photo looks more like an aged version of the daughter than mother. Making me think the village woman at the end of the movie is someone else. Weird I can't find any discussion about it. 12.239.13.143 (talk) 21:40, 16 January 2019 (UTC).

Chromosomal crossover will occasionally cause parts of a father's chromosome to get interchanged with the mother's of a homologous pair. So, denoting a homologous pair of the mother as (A,B), the father's as (C, D), the daughter could inherit (A, C) but if a crossover happens A and C will have exchanged parts and have become (A', C'). If we have only (A, B) and (A', C') available, then we can see that A and A' are almost but not completely identical, that the parts of A that are missing in A' can be found back on C' but you can't find the parts of A' that are missing in A on B. Count Iblis (talk) 21:18, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

• Thinking about this, there are easier ways to do this. We're thinking too hard. Wouldn't things like dental and medical records from prior to the date of contention (1934) help? If Jeanne, before that date, had dental work, of had missing teeth, or suffered an injury, or had certain diseases, those would be uniquely identifying markers on her remains that could help tell the difference between the two corpses. --Jayron32 18:26, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

There should be a father in all this - if his DNA is known, then he will be closely related to the daughter but not (one hopes) the mother. Determining this from his distant relations (not descended from the mother) gets trickier, but because of genetic linkage a series of markers in a standard $99 sequence ought to clinch the case -- there will be sections of DNA with exactly the same alleles in one gene after another. Even if you can't do quite that (you get descendants of the father's brothers or something), there is so much information in DNA that you could work this out despite a lot of practical restrictions. More so if you have access to massive population databases of millions of people compiled for identification for future surveillance research by companies catering to intelligence agencies idle curiosity. Wnt (talk) 00:20, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Very helpful! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:52, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Engineering catalogs

In Junior High about a decade ago one of my nerd friends would bring us these thick, newsprint catalogs of science and engineering stuff. We’d drool over the Tesla coil kits, lasers that cut steel, etc.

Anyone else remember this? Know what it was called, or if they exist on the web? (Asking for an acquaintance) 68.229.214.195 (talk) 14:34, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Would it have been something like Fisher Scientific? They are known for such catalogues. --Jayron32 15:15, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I'd have thought Edmund Scientific, if it's more at the gee-whizz end. Also ten years ago is pretty recent to still be on paper, not the web, and that sounds like Edmund. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:36, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

edmunds in closer, I got a date revision to the late 80s instead on 2008. Thanks, 68.229.214.195 (talk) 15:53, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

That long ago is into Whole Earth Catalog territory. Also there was more mil-surplus around back then, in many similar catalogues. One of the UK hobbyist electronic mags had a whole page ad running for years of plans and kits for psychoceramic science: anti-gravity, radionics, Kirlian photography. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:55, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Something like this? They also have everything online. Just find a local offering trader for professional tools and check if they offer some catalogue in your language. --Kharon (talk) 22:28, 16 January 2019 (UTC)