Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 August 2

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New term

Yes, hello. I would very much like to contribute a new slang term of a drink into wikipedia. What exactly am I to do at the "sandbox"? It is only a place with more links.

Thanks.

• Take a look at Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms, and you'll discover that Wikipedia is not the place to list new slang terms. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
• For slang terms it's better this site.--RiseRover|^talk 20:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Translation to any language would be appreciated

Hi.

I'm the founder of a new wiki on Wikia called Pen Pal Wiki. It's a multilingual pen pal directory, with the primary aim of helping people to get in contact with people in other languages, although you can get pen pals in your own language too (feel free to check it out).

Anyway, I would like to have as many different languages available as possible, meaning that I need to have some basic translations for each language. So, if you know a language (other than English, French and Dutch, which have already been done), and can spare the time, please translate the following phrases, as well as providing me the name of the language in that language, in both the characters of that language and English characters, and the English name of that language (eg. 日本語, Nihongo, Japanese). If you're unsure of the context but need to know to correctly translate it, have a look at Pen Pal Wiki.

• Welcome to the (name of language) section of Pen Pal Wiki!
• If you're looking for penpals in another language, you should also go to the Main Page and choose the language you want to correspond in.
• If you're looking for penpals in English, please choose a page:
• Under 18
• Over 18
• Mature (for older adults who would prefer to correspond with other older adults, as opposed to people in their early twenties)
• Schools
• Links
• Click here to add yourself to this page
• Under 18s only
• Over 18s only
• Adults only
• Teachers only

And I think that's all for now. Thanks heaps if you translate these phrases for me. Markdarb 04:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

For Esperanto:

• Bonvenon al la Esperanta sekcio de Pen Pal Wiki!
• Se vi estas serĉanta por korespondantoj, kiuj parolas alian lingvon, iru en la ĉefpaĝon kaj elektu la lingvon, je kiun vi volas korespondi.
• Se vi estas serĉanta por korespondantoj, kiuj parolas Angle, elektu paĝon:
• Sub 18
• Super 18
• Maturuloj (por pliaĝuloj, kiuj preferas korespondi kun aliaj pliaĝuloj, sed ne kun proksimume 20-jara geviroj)*
• Lernejoj
• Ligiloj
• Musklaku ĉi tie por enigi vin en ĉi tiun paĝon.
• Sole sub 18
• Sole super 18
• Sole plenaĝuloj
• Sole instruistoj

* This a rough translation, basically: "For older people who prefer to correspond with other older people, but not with approximately 20-year-old people."

(Feel free to correct this, I did it in a hurry.) --π! 06:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

For Spanish:

• Bienvenidos al sección español de Pen Pal Wiki!
• Si esta buscando por amigos del plumas en otra idioma, debe ir a la portada principal también, y elegir la idioma que quere coresponder.
• Si esta buscando por amigos del plumas en inglés, favor elege un página:
• Más de 18 años
• Menos de 18 años
• Maduro (por adultos más viejo que preferiría con adultos más viejo, y no qieren hablar con personas en sus vientes tempranos.)
• Escuelas
• Acoplamientos
• Enciende aquí para anadir tuyo mismo a esto página.
• Más de 18 años soló
• Menos de 18 años soló
• Adultos soló
• Profesores/as soló

I'm not quite up on my 'web' vocabulary. Could someone check that for me? --69.138.61.168 08:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

For Finnish:

• Tervetuloa Pen Pal Wikin suomenkieliselle alueelle!
• Jos etsit kirjekavereita muulla kielellä, sinun tulee mennä Pääsivulle ja valita kieli, jolla haluat viestiä.
• Jos etsit suomenkielisiä kirjekavereita, valitse sivu:
• Alle 18 vuotta
• Yli 18 vuotta
• Kypsä ikä (vanhemmille aikuisille, jotka haluavat mieluummin keskustella muiden vanhempien aikuisten, kuin kaksikymppisten ihmisten kanssa)
• Koulut
• Linkit
• Klikkaa tästä lisätäksesi itsesi tälle sivulle
• Vain alle 18-vuotiaille
• Vain yli 18-vuotiaille
• Vain aikuisille
• Vain opettajille

I think I can do it in Swedish too, but I prefer to leave it to a native speaker. JIP | Talk 08:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll give a Swedish translation, then, but the page would soon be cluttered with responses:

• Välkommen till den svenska avdelningen av Pen Pal Wiki!
• Om du söker brevvänner i ett annat språk, kan du gå till huvudsidan och välja språket du vill brevväxla i.
• Om du söker engelskspråkiga brevvänner, välj en sida:
• Under 18
• Över 18
• Mogen (För äldre som vill brevväxla med andra äldre, till skillnad från personer i yngre 20-års-åldern)
• Skolor
• Länkar
• Tryck här för att lägga till dig på sidan
• Endast under 18
• Endast över 18
• Endast vuxna
• Endast lärare

That's okay, although I think it sounds slightly stiff and formal, but then, translations often do. 惑乱 分からん 08:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Wait, wait. Is the part that says "penpals in English" supposed to always say "in English" or "in whatever language this is"? I've written "in Finnish" above. If you really mean "in English", then use englanninkielisiä instead of suomenkielisiä. JIP | Talk 08:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

This isn't an answer to your question, but if I were setting up a pen-pal site, I wouldn't divide it into "under 18" and "over 18." Shouldn't a 17-year-old college freshman be able to communicate with a 19-year-old sophomore? Why not just call the categories "youth" and "adult" or something to allow for more flexibility? -- Mwalcoff 23:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about the inclusion of mature, either. Perhaps it would be simpler if you just added your age and gender on registering, and search between age groups later. Having said that, I wouldn't bother more with this until I see a working Wiki at the link. 惑乱 分からん 09:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

It's just a bad link. The wiki is here. --π! 15:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all those translations, I'll get round to adding them some time soon. The suggestions are appreciated too. Anyone else, feel free to add some translations too! Markdarb 09:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

old wine in new bottle

what does the usage "old wine in new bottle" mean? I find that 'no body puts old wine in new bottle as old wine taste better. the phrase is used in different context and meaning now. can sone one clarify?

• Some, very good, wines age well. But most of them go off in a few years. So old wine isn't automatically desirable, and might actually be undrinkable. In a new bottle, would you know? Notinasnaid 09:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

We have an article on it, though not a very good one: The Patch and the Wineskins. Henry^Flower 09:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The relevant section says "no-one wants to drink new wine immediately after they have tasted wine that has aged; new wine isn't poured into old wineskin(s) because there is a risk of them splitting and so spilling the content; and similarly no-one adds old wine to new wineskin(s) because it would run the risk of ruining the taste". It is an odd article. Skittle 17:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Hold on, consider the tale of the sneaky restauranteur. Say couple A dines at a restaurant; they order a bottle of wine, eat their meal, and leave without finishing the bottle. Then, the sneaky restauranteur takes the unfinished "old" wine and combines it with couple B's unfinished "old" wine: puts it in a "new" bottle and serves it to couple C. Doesn't that justify the saying, "old wine in new bottles?" 7 August 2006

crossword help

could u help me with these clues

looming large in the public eye (4-7)(*i*****F*L*)

proverbially plain handle of old weapon (9)

towards the aft (3)

repeating Sequence (5)

of ancient greek site (of original games) (7)

show of sorrow (6)

average -means of communication (6)

old covering now considered hazardous (4-5)

conjecture -risky investment in hope of big profits (11)

be in then out (of fashion)(4,3,2)

authoritive doctrine (5)

your help will be appreciated

"of ancient greek site (of original games) (7)" should surely be Olympic. "conjecture -risky investment in hope of big profits (11)" -- speculation. "be in then out (of fashion)(4,3,2)" -- come and go. "authoritive doctrine (5)" -- my guess would be dogma. --Tkynerd 13:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Dogma = Politically correct term for a mother dog. :-) StuRat 07:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

father (5) it is not padre /daddy/beget is there any other word

Try "pater". StuRat 07:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

wipe out (7)

It is difficult when you don't give us any clues about the letters at all, but I'd guess that "average - means of communication" is MEDIUM, Btw, I'm an ESL speaker myself, and I usually find English crosswords difficult. Btw, is "equence" a typo for "sequence"? 惑乱 分からん 14:09, 2 August 2006 (UTC)oops damn the gremlins in the keyboard

father = pater?

wipe out = abolish, expunge, or rescind?

handle of old weapon = pikestaff

--Shantavira 15:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Hm.. old covering = "lead paint"? repeating sequence = "cycle"? doctrine = "edict"? father = "breed"? I'm better at these given the cross letters.. digfarenough (talk) 17:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

THINK LOGICALLY (6) (**A*O*)

EX -KING OF JORDAN (7) (**S*E*N)

annoy (3) (**K)

SENSELESS TALK (7) (T*A*D*H)

looming large in the public eye (4-7)(*i*****F*L*)

u guys are good at this stuff!!!

annoy - irk, king of Jordan - Hussein think logically - reason. Please sign your queries with the --~~~~ as requested at the top of the page. --LarryMac 19:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure your letters for 'senseless talk' are correct? Because it could be TWADDLE.--Anchoress 20:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

high-profile? --Seejyb 22:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

is in't there any other word for ,'senseless talk

Well the problem is there aren't too many words in English that have D_H. WiDTH, breaDTH, uh...? Are you sure about the 'D'?--Anchoress 04:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

actualltyanchoress u were right it is twaddle, it was a mistake made by me

Sweet!--Anchoress 05:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, we have helped out with crossword clues several times in the last few weeks, I think the least you could do would be to follow our conventions as requested, and please Sign Your Posts. You don't even have to type the characters yourself, just click on them right underneath the posting box, where it says Sign your name:. I'm going on crossword strike. --LarryMac 15:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

"Think logically (6)": REASON --Kjoonlee 03:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Icelandic þ and ð (repost with more info)

I am trying to get people with interest and resources in phonology to comment on whether the Icelandic dental fricatives (corresponding to þ and ð in writing) are not dental at all but rather alveolar. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Phonetics#Icelandic þ and ð. Any help would be appreciated. Stefán Ingi 18:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have found some references for them being alveolar, based on "Pétursson, M. 1971. Etude de la Réalisation des Consonnes Islandaises p, *, s, dans la Prononciation d'un sujet Islandais à Partir de la Radiocinématographie. Phonetica 23: 203-16.", also [1]. I wanted to ask about the notation, the first book in the google search I have linked to suggests using [ð̠] and [θ̠] but the book is very much about discussing the fine details of phonetics. Is it reasonable to use the unmodified [ð] and [θ] in IPA transcriptions of Icelandic on Wikipedia, as the main features of these sounds are that they are dental-ish non-sibilant fricatives (voiced and unvoiced). For a table of the sounds in Icelandic see Icelandic language#Phonology Stefán Ingi 16:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

To repeat my answer from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Phonetics#Icelandic þ and ð, I'd say simple [ð] and [θ] are enough in broad transcription, and even in narrow transcription unless the precise articulation of the sounds is the topic under discussion. User:Angr 17:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems that they are actually alveolar non-sibilant fricatives, according to Voiced alveolar fricative#The voiced alveolar non-sibilant fricative. Thus, [θ̠] and [ð̠], as Stefán said. Ciacchi 21:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

City's Walls

is it: the city's walls or the city walls.

Could be either. What is the context? --LarryMac 19:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The city walls were re-built.

Also is is re-built or rebuilt, what about re-settled.

In each case, either is acceptable, but since the hyphenated forms are not necessary I would avoid them. Henry^Flower 19:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The 'g' in Mengele

I just watched the film The Boys from Brazil, in which Josef Mengele is a promominent character. I noticed that the 'g' in the name was pronounced with a glottal stop (I think that's the term for it). This is not the German pronunciation. Amd at first I thought there shouldn't be any problem in English because English also has that 'ng' sound, as in 'banging'. Then again the word 'language' does have a glottal stop. So what is the rule here and why is Mengele mispronounced? (Maybe to piss off the bloody nazi? :) ) DirkvdM 19:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

There's no glottal stop in the word language, but there is a [g] after the [ŋ]. In banging there's just [ŋ] (two of them, in fact), without a [g] after. If you heard English speakers pronounce Mengele with a [g] after the [ŋ], it's probably because in English, it's extremely rare to have [ŋ] in the middle of a word followed by any sound other than [g], unless there is a morpheme boundary (as in bang-ing). Contrast singer, which has a morpheme boundary (sing-er) and no [g], with finger, which has no morpheme boundary and does have [g]. (There are a few exceptions, such as Binghamton, gingham, and dinghy, which have no morpheme boundary but also no [g].) User:Angr 19:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

(Angr beat me to it, so I'll just add that the voiced velar plosive article explains the English habit.) My experience is the opposite of Dirk's: I had always pronounced Mengele with a plosive, but the people in The Boys from Brazil (which I saw a couple of weeks ago) seemed not to- I remember being surprised by that at the time. Henry^Flower 20:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd assume a [ŋg] pronunciation, having read the article German phonology without getting any wiser. 惑乱 分からん 20:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I was unclear. The German pronunciation is definitely [ˈmɛŋələ] with no [g]. User:Angr 10:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I always thought that in Latin American Spanish the letter 'g' before the letters 'e' and 'i' was a velar fricative, or at least a glottal fricative. But of course, they speak Portuguese in Brazil, and i don't know the situation there. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 21:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

None of the people in the film are actually Brazilian.  ;) Henry^Flower 21:57, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

"g" in that position in Portuguese would be pronounced [ʒ] (like the "s" in measure), but it's a German name, not a Portuguese one, so Portuguese spelling-to-pronunciation rules don't apply. User:Angr 07:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Funny that you noticed 'Mengele' being pronounced without a plosive. Maybe different people used different pronunciations and we both only noticed the one we didn't expect. I'm not going to watch the film again just for this, but I've made a note on the tape to check this thread out the next time I do. And about the pronunciation of 'singer'. I believe there is an English dialect in which that is pronounced with a plosive.

Btw, the voiced velar plosive article isn't quite written for laymen like me. This is a common problem on Wikipedia. The experts writing the articles naturally find it difficult to think in the mindset of laymen. We have too much expertise! :) DirkvdM 07:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)