Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk/Archives/2012 July 15

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July 15

Article on Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Vinod Kothari

I am not too clear about what cannot be verified indepedently. I have give the book ISBN numbers and also some links from where they are available. I have also put in the publisher's name- and the publishers are quite reputed.

So for a person like Vo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.79.157.85 (talk) 07:45, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I am unable to understand why my links ( urls give by me) are not independent sources of verification. Can i have a bit more clarity on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.79.157.85 (talk) 07:55, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

What we need are reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Kothari's own books and his publisher's website are not independent, and Wikipedia does not consider itself reliable; citing Wikipedia would be circular. Amazon isn't a reliable source either because they have a financial interest which might skew the information they present; besides, the linked Amazon page does not even mention Kothari. In summary, we don't need sources written by Kothari or his associates, but about him. Huon (talk) 12:00, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Review of Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Hamish Telfer Adam (Biographical Article)

I have resubmitted a Biographical Article about the karate legend Hamish Adam which hopefully now meets your requirement

I would also like to incorporate a photograph of him, and a photograph of the first Great Briatain karate squad in 1970, at the appropriate parts of the article. Could you advise me on how to carry out this task. Thanks

Robert Robb (remorobus)Remorobus (talk) 11:19, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

There are still severe problems with your sources. First of all, Wikipedia does not consider itself a reliable source; using one Wikipedia article as confirmation for another would be circular. Of course wikilinks to other articles are appropriate, but those do not count as references. You also link to various web pages that don't even mention Adam, such as the IOC or the various Karate records pages. Others of your references are primary sources such as the websites of clubs Adams is affiliated with, but Wikipedia content should be based on secondary sources. I don't think the article currently has even a single truly independent source devoting just a single sentence to Adam. I would expect there should be newspaper articles about him; can we find anything of that kind?

Regarding the photo: If the photo comes with a free license, you can upload it to the Wikimedia Commons via their Upload Wizard. Once it's uploaded, the picture tutorial explains the wikicode necessary to add it to the article. Should the image not have a free license, it will probably not be acceptable; our guideline on non-free content requires that no free equivalent is available or could be created, and we usually expect that free photos of living people could become available. Anyway, the issue with the lack of significant coverage in truly independent sources is much more severe than the lack of a photo. Huon (talk) 12:00, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I have set the page to WP:MOS and did some example citations and wiki-links.  :- ) Don 14:41, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I submitted a second draft Biological Article incorporating ‘reliable sources’ to evidence every fact and piece of information contained in it, at the request of the first reviewer. The majority were karate websites which have some form of association with Hamish Adam, because he is prominent figure within the sport and considered a legend by others involved in the sport. Links were provided to evidence everything contained in the article, for example the records confirming his own individual successes and his coaching successes. In addition links were provided to roles he carried out within these organisations. It stands to reason that if he is a sporting legend and hero within karate, then karate websites will reflect these facts.

The karate links that you intimate do not even mention Hamish Adam by name were intended to evidence the affiliations. The Scottish Karate Governing Body (SKGB) is affiliated to the World Karate Federation (WKF) who in turn is the ONLY Karate organisation recognised by the International Olympic Committee (IOC). This is of paramount importance because there are numerous small and secular styles of karate with their own organisations, which cannot comply with the strict criteria essential to take the sport forward hopefully to the Olympic Games in 2020. I appreciate that those outside the sport may not be fully aware or appreciate the importance of this fact. The Karate Records website evidences all the successes that Hamish Adam achieved both as a fighter and as a coach, and again emphasises that they were achieved in ‘All Styles’ karate, not some secular style or organisation.

I find it puzzling that you do not accept Wikipedia as a ‘reliable source’ because if there is consistency with the criteria you use then it should be safe, although I appreciate that it may be deemed ‘circular’ by some. Whatever criteria Wikipedia applied to biographical article on Ticky Donovan should surely apply to Hamish Adam, because there are friends and counterparts in karate and their careers and achievements are linked in historical events making them both living legends. In Ticky Donovan’s biography the sources are almost entirely karate websites, so I assume it was not subjected to the same demands.

No mention was made by the first reviewer of ‘secondary sources’ independent of karate, otherwise I would have complied with it prior to submitting the second draft.

It is relatively easy to provide you with media links regarding Hamish Adam recently receiving a MBE but virtually impossible to provide media links regarding his other historic achievements. It would appear that Wikipedia have a much higher opinion of the media than I have, but I accept that they are independent of karate related websites. Sadly the sport of karate in Great Britain does not enjoy much media interest unlike other countries in Europe and the rest of the World. I have listed some of them below for your information and attention, but in an effort to save both you and me additional time and effort, I would be grateful if you could specify which parts of the article you require me to provide ‘secondary sources’ to support. I intend removing the reference to the IOC because it clearly gives you a problem and you do not appear to appreciate the significance.

1. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/nl1/newsroom/dg_202128 2. http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/106494-karate-coach-chuffed-to-receive-mbe-after-five-decades-in-sport/ 3. http://www.expressandstar.com/sport/uk-sport/2012/06/16/donald-awarded-mbe/ 4. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/adam-chuffed-at-mbe-for-karate-services.17890677 5. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5ibATDju1IKLAIKPoKmNQJIXcF5xw?docId=N0314921339781631027A

Thank you for advising me on how to upload photographs which I personally think makes any article more interesting. Similarly I intend removing the photograph of the GB Karate Squad attending the first World ‘All Styles’ Karate Championships in 1970 in Japan, because I cannot evidence the names of the people in it, and no doubt you would require them.

My biographical article is now being trimmed to such an extent that I am left wondering if it is worthwhile putting anything on your website. You encourage people to contribute to your website, but make the process problematic, frustrating, and very time consuming with your demands. You provide links to read which are lengthy, and frankly confusing, when only a small section is of relevance and applicable. I appreciate that this may save you time, but not the person forced to read every detail of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Remorobus (talk • contribs) 09:31, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Right now there are not sources for every fact and piece of information contained in the article. Take for example the second paragraph: Adams is an 8th Dan - that should be easy to verify, but there's no source. That makes him "a member of a small select group holding this rank in Britain"? That's more opinion than fact; how about "Adam is an 8th Dan, one of five (or however many there are) in the United Kingdom"? (Then we'd need a reference on 8th Dans in the United Kingdom which mentions Adam among their number, but I don't doubt something like that exists. For such undisputed factual information even a primary source might do.) And he's "a charismatic and inspirational figure, who coaches by motivating and educating"? Says who? That reads like puffery and would not just need a source, but attribution to a source - "Sports journalist John Doe said Adam is a 'charismatic and inspirational figure'." Or take the paragraph on career highlights. There are three external links. One isn't truly external but a link to another Wikipedia article (and thus not a reliable source, see below), the other two don't mention Adam. A source that doesn't mention him obviously cannot support statements about Adam. How am I to know that Adam was indeed a member of those teams when the source does not say so?

If the fact that the WKF is the only karate organization recognised by the IOC is of paramount importance to Adam, presumably because he had something to do with that recognition, we'd once again need a reference that makes the connection between Adam and the IOC. The IOC homepage doesn't mention Adam, it doesn't mention karate, it does not actually support the statement it's supposed to source. If no secondary source draws this connection, the WKF issue seems a good opportunity for a wikilink - we have an article on the World Karate Federation, and readers interested in that background information can find it in the dedicated article and need not rely on our synthesis.

Wikipedia does not accept itself as a reference for a range of reasons. First of all, you could create two articles which refer to each other - truly circular referencing. Secondly, even if the article you refer to currently has the necessary information, it could get edited, and your source could lose the information you require. We prefer sources with a little more stability. Also, there's vandalism, and just because a Wikipedia article says something it need not be correct. Finally, if the article you refer to indeed has secondary sources as it should have, you can just as well refer to those sources instead of the Wikipedia article.

The sources we want need not be independent of karate - they must be independent of Adam. A karate magazine would be a perfect source unless Adam happens to be editor-in-chief. The news reports you provide (except the direct.gov website, which only provides a list entry on the honours list and no background information) are very good. Those are precisely the kinds of sources we need. For example, the Herald not only confirms the MBE but also the 8th Dan, and it says that Adam was part of the Japan-defeating team of 1975. STV calls him "integral to the sport in Scotland" and discusses his role among the various karate organizations. These can be used to support much of the content currently in the article; they clearly establish his notability. Now it's mostly a matter of bringing the article in line with what those sources say and to remove factoids and opinions (such as his charisma and inspiration) that are not supported by those or similar references. The article may get even shorter, but it's better to have a short, well-sourced article than a long one that's mostly unreferenced.

I'm sorry you found the links I provided less helpful than desirable; I already try to link to the relevant sections of the policy pages (WP:CIRCULAR instead of all of WP:Verifiability, for example).

Regarding Ticky Donovan: I haven't looked at that article, but it's no secret that there are articles with insufficient sources on Wikipedia. That's no reason to create more (and with the newspapers you found, there's no need not to make the Adam article well-sourced anyway). Maybe the Donovan article should be deleted and we just haven't done so yet, or maybe it just needs to be cleaned up and provided with better sources. None of that affects the quality of the Adam article. Huon (talk) 15:30, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for you advise and I have taken your comments on board. My biographical article has now been edited to include ‘secondary sources’ as directed by the Second Reviewer (Huon) to provide sources independent of karate. In addition several contentious words, phrases, and websites, highlighted by you have now been removed. A few more ‘primary sources’ have been added to specifically evidence more parts of the content. A photo of Hamish Adam, free of any ‘copyright’ restrictions, will be added later. I have re-submitted the article for your attention, whilst 'crossing my fingers'

Robert Robb (remorobus) Remorobus (talk) 09:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

help with editing and approval - Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Brian Alan Lane

hi -- trying to understand the comments by reviewer on my submission and trying to figure out how to get my article approved. please all help is appreciated article Brian Alan Lane Brevity is the soul of wit. (talk) 18:56, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

The references are a mixture of primary sources such as the websites of organizations Lane is affiliated with, websites which are generally not considered reliable such as IMDb or Google Image search results, and sources which provide only trivial coverage or do not mention Lane at all. I believe the only reliable secondary source to actually say a few sentences about Lane is the Kirkus Books review - but while that review is provided as a reference, the article actually cites another much more laudatory book review which is not provided as a reference. That's obviously not a neutral point of view - if some critics lauded Lane's book and others panned it, we should provide both viewpoints with appropriate attribution. For the entire rest of the article, we'd need some reliable sources that provide significant coverage of Lane in the first place. Given Lane's wide range of activities, I expect such sources (such as newspaper articles) exist, but we'll have to provide them and base the article content on what the sources have to say about him. The current texts seems unduly laudatory. The book review is just one example - he's a "honored professor"? Says who? Not the (primary) source provided for that statement.

As an aside, the "first=" and "last=" parameters of the citation template are meant for the first and last name of the source's author, not for the source's subject. It would also help to add publisher information and, when available, dates, and to take the titles from the sources instead of inventing our own. I have tidied up the Kirkus Reviews reference, but most others should probably be removed entirely for the reasons pointed out above. Huon (talk) 22:15, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Review of Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/A nickname logo

Target took over 100 to 150 Zellers stores Its new logo is just arrived for these new Target places Doreau, Quebec

Toronto London and Windsor and other regions in Canada Target take over keeps Zellers workers too — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.17.193 (talk) 23:44, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we need a separate article on the logo; that information, if mentioned in reliable sources, can surely be added to the Target Canada article. Huon (talk) 23:51, 15 July 2012 (UTC)