| The following text is an archived discussion from the June 8, 2007 debate on IRC. Do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on IRC. No further edits should be made.
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TwinsMetsFan: Vishwin: how are the PUSRD templates a self-reference?
TwinsMetsFan: from [[WP:PORTAL]] - In the main namespace, the top-level portals are linked to directly from the Main Page and individual portals are linked from relevant articles using {{portal}}. These templates should be located at article ends in See also sections (or equivalents).
vishwin60: let the portals link to the articles, but not articles to portals
TwinsMetsFan: vishwin: disagreed
vishwin60: it's distracting to the article
vishwin60: from WP:SELF: Put simply, this policy is about remembering that the goal of Wikipedia is to create an encyclopedia, not merely to perpetuate itself, so the articles produced should be useful even outside the context of the project used to create them.
TwinsMetsFan: if you think a small box is distracting, then i can't help you
TwinsMetsFan: uh, portals are supposed to help the reader find similar articles
vishwin60: then how'd the state highway box come to be?
vishwin60: the portal is redundant in this way
TwinsMetsFan: browsing didn't exist then
TwinsMetsFan: yes, the portal would be redundant *if* it was placed on all 7500 articles
TwinsMetsFan: not the 50 state list pages
vishwin60: the portal link was placed on the article Highway
vishwin60: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Highway&diff=prev&oldid=136906682
TwinsMetsFan: well, that's stupid
vishwin60: if we want the portal link, link it on the state highway template
TwinsMetsFan: as an aside, removing links to the portal kills the portal
TwinsMetsFan: as if it needed to be killed, it's pretty much a zombie anyway
vishwin60: 20 min till beer oclock
JohnnyAlbert10 entered the room.
mode (+v JohnnyAlbert10 ) by ChanServ
JohnnyAlbert10: hello
vishwin60: 18 min till beeroclock
JohnnyAlbert10: whats going on?
vishwin60: me removing P:USRD links from state highway list articles
JohnnyAlbert10: o
vishwin60: TwinsMetsFan: I'm transplanting the state highway template
JohnnyAlbert10: vishwin60: why do you wanna remove those templates?
vishwin60: at first I conceived it as WP:SELF
vishwin60: but now, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:US_state_highways <--brand new
JohnnyAlbert10: hmm
TwinsMetsFan: what about articles like [[United States Numbered Highways]]?
JohnnyAlbert10: that does need a portal link
vishwin60: the portal link is provided in the template
TwinsMetsFan: you mean the non-existent template on that page?
vishwin60: which non-existent template?
TwinsMetsFan: {{US state highways}} is not transcluded, nor should it be, on [[United States Numbered Highways]]
TwinsMetsFan: so right now, there is no link to the portal
TwinsMetsFan: where there should be
vishwin60: hmm
vishwin60: {{US state highways}} contains links to all of the systems
vishwin60: all of the *major* systems, that is
JohnnyAlbert10: but we dont need that on articles
JohnnyAlbert10: just the portal link
vishwin60: here comes the department of redundancy...
TwinsMetsFan: um, how?
JohnnyAlbert10: {{US state highways}} is already on the list articles
JohnnyAlbert10: we dont need them at [[United States Numbered Highways]]
vishwin60: however, what appears is Numbered highways in the United States
vishwin60: U.S. Routes *are* numbered highways
vishwin60: as is with Interstates
JohnnyAlbert10: but we dont need a state highway template there
TwinsMetsFan: this isn't categorization
vishwin60: of course it isn't
vishwin60: ok {{US state highways}} moved to {{US numbered highways}}
TwinsMetsFan: just because the portal is on one article relating to a topic does not mean it can't be on another
vishwin60: hmm
vishwin60: WP:PORTAL isn't a policy or guideline
vishwin60: WP:SELF is a guideline
TwinsMetsFan: and WP:SELF doesn't apply
vishwin60: hmm
vishwin60: it applies on all articles
TwinsMetsFan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:SELF#Examples_of_self-references - nowhere are links to portals forbidden
JohnnyAlbert10: but vish who are readers gonna know theres a portal on US roads if they arent linked to major articles?
vishwin60: template
vishwin60: i've already said it's for numbered highways, not state highways
vishwin60: USRD covers all roads in the US
TwinsMetsFan: and how does that cover every conceivable article?
vishwin60: U.S. Routes is a numbered highway system
vishwin60: there is a line between state highways and numbered highways
TwinsMetsFan: [[United States Numbered Highways]]
TwinsMetsFan: i don't give a damn about the lists, they have the template
vishwin60: now I may have thought of another idea
TwinsMetsFan: this article *shouldn't* have the US numbered highways template, because those link to lists
TwinsMetsFan: not to articles about the system
vishwin60: United States Numbered Highways is about the system
TwinsMetsFan: that's...what i just said
TwinsMetsFan: it's an article on the system, not a list
TwinsMetsFan: the others, with few exceptions, are lists
vishwin60: lists with a definition of the system
JohnnyAlbert10: you can link the template to lists but not articles
vishwin60: lists and articles are the same
vishwin60: they're just formatted differently
TwinsMetsFan: perhaps we should approach this a different way: what was wrong with the way it was?
vishwin60: placement is wrong
TwinsMetsFan: care to elaborate?
***vishwin60 looks at [[WP:P]]
vishwin60: portal links should exist in see also, if standalone
TwinsMetsFan: most did
vishwin60: ok, I think this can be a good compromise
vishwin60: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:U.S._Routes <-- click on the U.S. Route shield
TwinsMetsFan: and for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System ?...
TwinsMetsFan: the US box doesn't solve that page
vishwin60: same thing, will make the Interstate shield link to P:USRD
vishwin60: the US box is transcluded into United States Numbered Highways
JohnnyAlbert10: oh great, my internet wont work
TwinsMetsFan: i suppose that works for now, but that's not a catch all
TwinsMetsFan: oddly though, some of the articles that i believe worthy to have {{Portal US Roads}} never had it
vishwin60: if this compromise can prevent me or anyone else from griping about WP:SELF, so be it until a better solution can be found
JohnnyAlbert10: we need to reach an agreement
vishwin60: this *is* the tentative agreement
TwinsMetsFan: [[Transportation in the United States]] - relevant, none of the above navboxes are transcluded
vishwin60: hmm
vishwin60: there's a template at the bottom
vishwin60: I can make it so that {{Portal US Roads}} only appears in this article
vishwin60: err, scratch that
JohnnyAlbert10: maybe we need to think here for a sec
JohnnyAlbert10: where do we need portal links?
vishwin60: in areas of the article where the majority of the readers won't see
TwinsMetsFan: readers are *supposed* to see portals
JohnnyAlbert10: ya
TwinsMetsFan: portals are for the reader's benefit
JohnnyAlbert10: in da bottom of the article
JohnnyAlbert10: a right hand link
vishwin60: that's what I was thinking
vishwin60: but we have to make it so that the readers won't get distracted from it
JohnnyAlbert10: i think things were good the way they were
vishwin60: but the placement in the road section was way off http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Transportation_in_the_United_States&oldid=134646200
TwinsMetsFan: then fix the placement
vishwin60: hmm
vishwin60: my concern is distraction
TwinsMetsFan: i guess no other portals care about "distraction" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Portal
vishwin60: hmm
***vishwin60 is reading the MOS and its associated pages
vishwin60: obviously editors *must* think about the readers
JohnnyAlbert10: correct
vishwin60: i don't think readers *need* to go into a portal until they've finished reading the article
JohnnyAlbert10: that's their decision
JohnnyAlbert10: it doesnt really matter where you put da link
vishwin60: actually it does
vishwin60: per the MOS, an applicable image, such as a shield in the roads case, *must* be put in the top right-hand cornder
vishwin60: corner*
vishwin60: and probably an infobox, if one exists and is strongly recommended
vishwin60: portal links are *not* important
JohnnyAlbert10: so? a little link in da article doesnt matter
vishwin60: mm-hmm, but the placement matters
JohnnyAlbert10: place it in the topright corner
vishwin60: no
TwinsMetsFan: then put it in the see also section, like Template:Portal describes
vishwin60: that'
vishwin60: oops
vishwin60: I was going to say that
vishwin60: the see also section is practically the end of the article
vishwin60: that's where readers would want to browse to other articles
TwinsMetsFan: ok, we've got that established
TwinsMetsFan: so, what's wrong with {{Portal US Roads}}?
vishwin60: not much
TwinsMetsFan: ok, 2 for 2
TwinsMetsFan: now, why was the template flat out removed from [[Transportation in the United States]] instead of being moved to the bottom?
vishwin60: [[WP:SELF]] assumption in the beginning
vishwin60: you can add it back; I'm currently taking care of {{3di}}
TwinsMetsFan: so, other than placement in select cases, you agree there was nothing wrong with {{Portal US Roads}} and its usage
TwinsMetsFan: except for non-US articles like Highway
vishwin60: hmm
JohnnyAlbert10: in other words, it was fine b-fore today
vishwin60: the thing is, the portal should be semi-invisible
TwinsMetsFan: then why does [[Template:Portal]] exist, using the *exact same formatting* and used on thousands of articles?
vishwin60: because everyone else was too lazy to create their own portal templates ;-)
JohnnyAlbert10: i concur w/ TMF
JohnnyAlbert10: so, do we agree on something?
vishwin60: sure make it appear somewhere not in the main article text
vishwin60: without giving any prominence
TwinsMetsFan: so, when you refer to semi-invisible, you mean sending it to see also or the bottom, and not editing the transparency or something else?
vishwin60: correct
TwinsMetsFan: ok
JohnnyAlbert10: we have a consensus
vishwin60: it *can* be in templates
TwinsMetsFan: so, like JA10 said, you agree that other than placement and some undeserving articles, it was fine before today
vishwin60: almost
TwinsMetsFan: and the reservations are...?
***vishwin60 thinks
vishwin60: that a portal should not be given any prominence
TwinsMetsFan: none is given when the box is near the bottom
vishwin60: good
vishwin60: discussion closed
