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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Al-Wathiq

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 03:20, 3 June 2023 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Al-Wathiq

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Nominator(s): Cplakidas (talk)

Al-Wathiq (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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This article is about one of the more obscure 9th-century Abbasid caliphs, chiefly due to his short reign, from 842 to 847. It was nevertheless a reign very active in the military, political, and religious areas. The article passed GA in 2021, and was expanded somewhat in October 2022. I am confident it is as comprehensive as it can be, and would like to submit it eventually to FA, so any suggestions for further improvement are always welcome. Constantine ✍ 10:49, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Vami

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I thoroughly enjoyed your previous work, so I'll reserve a spot here. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 22:48, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • The lead feels rather anemic for a Commander of the Faithful.
    • Hmmm, you may be right, but the encyclopedia articles I found about him were not much lengthier. Do you feel there are particular aspects that should be expanded upon more?
  • Would recommend use of "CE" in the lead rather than AD, in spite of the shared Abrahamic canon between Christianity and Islam.
    • That's my usual practice as well. Changed.
  • #Early life should note that al-Mu'tasim was Caliph, and give al-Wathiq's name in full.
    • Done on the former, but the latter is already there: both his name and kunya are mentioned explicitly.
  • [...] especially in Baghdad and the Islamic holy cities of Mecca and Medina. Why isn't Mecca linked here?
  • These men had been personally loyal to al-Mu'tasim, but was not similarly bound to al-Wathiq; [...] were not similarly bound
    • Fixed.
  • What is a qadi?
  • [...] resulting in clashes that left some dead (February/March 845). "some" is meaningless here.
    • Indeed. Rephrased.
  • Accompanied by troops from the Shakiriyyah, Turkish, and the Magharibah guard regiments [...] Turkish what? And whom or what are these other bodies?
    • It should be 'the Shakiriyyah, Turkish, and Magharibah guard regiments', fixed now.
      • This still doesn't tell the uninitiated what the Shakiriyyah is. If it is a unit of Turkish and Magharibah troops, then I recommend using emdashes rather than commas for this explanation.
        • No, all of them are different guard regiments; the Shakiriyya [guard regiment], Turkish [guard regiment], and Magharibah [guard regiment]. I really don't know a better/clearer way of explaining that. Constantine ✍ 11:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
          • Maybe "Accompanied by troops from the Shakiriyyah and Magharibah—[guard regiments]—and additional Turkish guard regiments..."? –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 11:24, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
            • No, unfortunately such a phrasing would be incorrect; there were three guard regiments: the Shakiriyyah, Magharibah, and 'Atrak' i.e. Turks. All three terms have ethnic or regional connotations, but the Turks are usually rendered in English as the term is familiar to us, whereas the others are not. Constantine ✍ 11:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • [...] and let the rest free. Recommend condensing to "and freed the rest."
    • Changed.
  • [...] he also forced the Banu Hilal to submit on the same terms. What terms.
    • Same as the Sulaym. Clarified.
  • #Suppression of rebels gets too far away from al-Wathiq himself in favor of the exploits of his vassals. The third paragraph especially is quite large and could do with reduction.
    • I know, but monarchs' articles, at a time when said monarchs exercised real power, have to cover the events of their reign. But you are right on the third para, have trimmed it down.
  • [...] before he returned to Basra [...] Link Basra here.
    • Done.
  • The Mus'abid [...] The who?
    • Removed, as despite the link it is apparently confusing an does not convey critical information.
  • The sahib al-shurta, [...] The what?
    • Clarified.
  • [...] thieve's loot [...] Should be "thieves'".
    • Fixed.
  • [...] although al-Ya'qubi [...] Who?
    • Explained.
  • [...] and sent Sallam al-Tarjman [...] Who?
    • Clarified.
  • In 833 he gave birth to his elder son, [...] Uh.
    • Uh indeed. Fixed.
@Vami IV: thanks for taking the time and the corrections suggested. I have addressed them or otherwise replied above. Please have another look. Constantine ✍ 14:30, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Vami IV: sorry for the delay, was away for a few days. Have responded to the outstanding issued above. Constantine ✍ 11:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

HF - support

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Will take a look at soon. Hog Farm Talk 03:33, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Should there be a hatnote pointing to Al-Wathiq I and Al-Wathiq II?
    • Excellent point, added a dab page and a hatnote
  • His father is stated to be "all the more since his father was initially a junior prince without prospects of succession" but then becomes caliph. While this isn't as relevant to al-Wathiq is it would be to his father, I think some sort of brief explanation as to how/why this happened is necessary to explain how al-Wathiq became part heir apparent to the caliphate
    • Excellent suggestion, as it also allows to introduce the Turkish troops. Done.
  • "His mother, Qaratis, accompanied al-Wathiq's brother Ja'far (the future caliph al-Mutawakkil) on the pilgrimage in 842, but she died on the way at al-Hirah, on 16 August 842. She was buried in Kufa" - is this particularly relevant to an article on al-Wathiq?
    • It is relevant a) as part of his personal history, and b) as an act of public piety from the new caliph: his mother and brother led the pilgrimage. Have rephrased slightly to tighten this up.
  • Is it worth mentioning directly which view on the createdness of the Quran al-Wathiq took?
    • Good point, added.

I think that's all from me; I don't know enough about the topic to confidently assess the sourcing. Hog Farm Talk 00:29, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for some excellent suggestions, Hog Farm. These points aside, did you have trouble following the article? Constantine ✍ 15:11, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I was able to follow it reasonably well. Had to follow a few of the links, but that's what they're there for. Hog Farm Talk 16:37, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by CPA

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Will do after Hog's comments are addressed. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 13:54, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Abū Jaʿfar Hārūn ibn Muḥammad (Arabic: أبو جعفر هارون بن محمد المعتصم;" Unlink Arabic.
    • No problem with doing it, but what is the reason?
  • The language is too well known per MOS:OVERLINK we don't need to link it.
  • Done.
  • The lead doens't include the "Death and succession", "Assessment and legacy" and the "Family" sections.
    • Quite right. Added.
  • "Al-Wathiq was born on 17 April 812 (various sources give slightly earlier or later dates in 811–813)," I think this should be a foodnote with some examples which sources.
    • This comes from al-Tabari, who does not name his sources, and Turner just provides the timeframe 811-813 ("Other dates are given but it is clear that he was born either during the war between the brothers or at the beginning of his uncle al-Maʾmūn’s reign.")
  • "His father was the Abbasid prince, and later caliph, al-Mu'tasim" Reign here?
    • Added.
  • "elite private army of Turkish slave troops" This is a bit misleading people would think the sentence means Turks from Turkey instead of Turkic groups.
    • This reflects usage in the sources. Have changed to 'Turkic' though to avoid confusion.
  • "he took care for his son and heir-apparent" What's his name?
    • al-Wathiq is meant here
  • No meant his son what's his son's name?
  • Yes. The 'son and heir-apparent' of al-Mu'tasim is al-Wathiq. I have rephrased to hopfully make it clearer.
  • "uppression of the revolt of Babak Khorramdin in 838" --> "uppression of the revolt of Babak Khorramdin in 838 in modern-day Iran"
    • added
  • "someone else to convey a message to the caliph" --> "someone else to convey a message to the Caliph"
    • Done
  • "These men had been personally loyal to al-Mu'tasim" Doesn't sound encyclopedic to me?
    • Why? The pattern of men raised to high station by a strong patron and then not showing the same loyalty to his 'weaker' (i.e. usually young and unwarlike) successor is a very common theme in history.
  • "However, in 843/4, the Caliph" --> "However, in 843/44, the Caliph"?
    • Fixed.
  • "after, but his son, Muhammad" MOS:EGG here plus he might be confused with the prophet.
    • Rather unlikely, since we are already talking about things like Islam and caliphs here, but added the nisbah for clarity.
  • "A minor Kharijite uprising in 845/6" --> "A minor Kharijite uprising in 845/46"?
    • Fixed.
  • "scheduled for the night of 4 April 846" is this the night of 3/4 or 4/5?
    • Clarified.
  • "early, and there was no response.[37][36]" Re-order the refs here.
    • Done.
  • "The caliph interrogated al-Khuza'i publicly" --> "The Caliph interrogated al-Khuza'i publicly"
    • Fixed.
  • "Byzantine Sicily, capturing Messina (842/3), Modica (845), and Leontini (846).[56] In 845/6, the Aghlabids captured" --> "Byzantine Sicily, capturing Messina (842/43), Modica (845), and Leontini (846).[56] In 845/46, the Aghlabids captured"?
    • Fixed.
  • "the Tiber River and their crews raided the environs of Rome" Unlink Rome.
    • Done.
  • "movements of the Kirghiz Turks at the time" MOS:EGG here.
    • Why? There was only one set of 'Kirghiz Turks' in the 9th century, and the article name linked to is for disambiguating between the modern Kyrgyz people. I would think this goes under A link's visible label does not need to match the exact title of the article being linked from MOS:EGG.
  • "to Ibn Khordadbeh, the caliph sent the astronomer al-Khwarizmi" --> "to Ibn Khordadbeh, the Caliph sent the astronomer al-Khwarizmi"
    • Fixed.
  • "His age is variously given as 32, 34, or 36 years at the time" Maybe explain that this is the Islamic years?
    • Have removed the pipe of the link for clarity.

That's everything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 09:30, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot, CPA-5, your comments have been addressed or responded to. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 09:16, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
CPA-5 a small reminder. Constantine ✍ 09:30, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

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Given that we are only waiting for CPA-5, and that all of their points seem addressed, I am going to step in and provide the third support. Nice work, BTW. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Gog the Mild, it means a lot, coming from you :) Constantine ✍ 12:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

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Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:33, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

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  • Sources seem of good quality and cover the available literature, with the caveat that this is completely outside my area of expertise
  • All footnotes are nicely formatted.
  • fn 7: should "not" be "note"?
    • Fixed, thanks.
  • Spot checks: 2, 22a, 30, 33, 66, 67 - okay
  • fn 6a: Says 833-842 but the article says 843. Please check.
    • Indeed, typo error. Fixed.
  • fn 33: Found it on pp. 140-141. (I only have the 2015 edition of the book)
  • fn 66: Found it on pp. 144-145. (I only have the 2015 edition of the book)
    • The newer versions (there's by now also a fourth edition that came out this year) do no have the same page numbers.

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:59, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Hawkeye7, the trouble spots have been fixed. Constantine ✍ 13:42, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Great work. Passing. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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