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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Battle of the Defile

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Battle of the Defile

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Nominator(s): Constantine ✍


Although little known in the West, the Battle of the Defile is one of the most dramatic and best-described battles of the 8th century, and one of the major battles that brought the Muslim conquests to an end. The article passed GA easily back in February, but I have continued tweaking it and adding more details from al-Tabari's account. I think it is ready for A-class, and aim to take it to FA eventually, so any comment, criticism or suggestion is welcome! Constantine ✍ 15:18, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Background: "Junayd was forced to set out for Balkh with his troops and quell the revolt, dispatching some 28,000 of his army in various directions." -- It might be better to say "Junayd was forced to set out for Balkh and there dispersed 28,000 of his men to quell the revolt."
  • The Battle: I notice several measurements in kilometers. These should be in convert templates with mile measurements.
  • "Instead he led his army to Kish, some 70 km in direct line south from Samarkand." -- What is "direct line south?" due south? south on a straight march?
  • It surprises me that there isn't more on the condition of the two armies. What equipment did they use, and how was their morale? The infighting described would greatly benefit from a little discussion.
  • Is the battle considered a Pyrrhic victory?
Will check back. —Ed!(talk) 23:18, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Ed and thanks for the review! I also introduced the "convert" template and rephrase the parts you pointed out. On the "Pyrrhic victory", I've not seen it described in this exact term. It could probably be regarded as one, but I hesitate to introduce an "Arab victory" in the infobox. Even in a "Pyrrhic victory", the "victor" usually has possession of the ground or has scored at the very least a marginal success. The Defile was more a case of the Arabs escaping complete annihilation. They managed to get through to Samarkand, but suffered crushing casualties far greater than their opponents, and the city itself was essentially evacuated and soon after lost along with most of Transoxiana. Except in official Umayyad bulletins, if they existed, I think even contemporaries would rate this as a defeat. On your fourth point, you are right. I'll get to it over the next few days. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 10:40, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a few details from Blankinship that clarify the issue of whether the battle was a victory, as well as the Khurasanis' hostility to Junayd and their general discontent. I considered adding a short notice on the Mudar-Yaman split as well to explain the reference to his Qaysi tribal affiliation (along the lines of Nasr ibn Sayyar), but this is probably too much and does not immediately affect the article (the hostility towards Junayd after the Defile transcended tribal divisions). On the respective armies, I'll add something during the weekend. Constantine ✍ 19:40, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've also added a short section on the respective natures of the two armies (infantry-based Arabs vs "typical nomads" Turgesh). Constantine ✍ 22:45, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Outstanding. I think your edits have greatly helped. I've changed my vote to support. —Ed!(talk) 23:03, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentSupport
    • No dab links [1] (no action required).
    • External links check out [2] (no action required).
    • Images lack Alt Text [3] so you might consider adding it (suggestion only - not an ACR requirement).
    • The Citation Check Tool reveals two errors with reference consolidation:
      • Kennedy (2001), p. 29 (Multiple references contain the same content)
      • K29 (Multiple references are using the same name)
    • Images are all public domain and seem appropriate to the article (no action required).
    • The Earwig Tool doesn't appear to be working at the moment so I was unable to check for copyright violations, although given the author's past contributions I have no reason to believe this would be an issue [4] (no action required).
    • Samarkand is wikilinked twice in the lead.
    • Typo here perhaps: "could easily set fire on the grass on that route", perhaps "could easily set fire to the grass on that route..."
    • I'm a little unclear what you mean here: "Al-Tabari reports that he and after him seventeen other bearers of the same standard were killed, a testament to the fierceness of the fight." Could you perhaps reword.
    • Title of works in the sources list should be presented in title case per WP:MOS. Anotherclown (talk) 22:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hello and thanks for taking the time! I've made the suggested changes & corrections, including the addition of alt text to the map. Any other comments on the readability & clarity of the text? Constantine ✍ 22:16, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Added my support now. Anotherclown (talk) 06:56, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 23:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your edits, Dank. Constantine ✍ 08:31, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Image: fine. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 16:45, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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