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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Helmuth Raithel

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article promoted. Anotherclown (talk) 01:56, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Helmuth Raithel

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Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (send... over)


I am nominating this article for A-Class review because it has recently undergone GA review and I believe it meets the criteria for A-Class. Raithel earned the coveted Nazi Party Blood Order as a teenager despite not being a member of the Nazi Party. He was briefly the commander of a Waffen-SS mountain division in the Balkans, and commanded two Waffen-SS mountain regiments. Severely wounded twice, he was unsuccessfully recommended for the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 22:44, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments I haven't done a detailed review of the prose at this stage, just have the following comments to make initially:

  • The lead is quite large given size of article. There is a lot of detail, some of which only has one sentence in the main body of the article or is a direct repetition of content (e.g. the personal life section), that could be culled out.
    • Done.
  • Some paragraphs could be broken into two for ease of reading; in particular the Early life, Yugoslavia and Germany sections.
    • Done.
  • Do we know what he was awarded the Iron Cross and German Cross for? (I'm guessing not but just checking)
    • No details available in any of the books I've been able to get access to.
  • In 1943, his mentor Schörner (now a General der Gebirgstruppe (lieutenant general))...: there was a bracket missing in this sentence which I added, but looking at it again, I think the first pair of brackets are better off as commas. Avoids the double bracket. Also, until now, there has been no indication that Schorner even knew Raithel. Could this be expanded a bit to give some context to the "Mentor" relationship?
    • I have addressed both aspects of this comment.
  • Raithel received the following awards during his service: Should the Blood Order be listed here? He wasn't in the military at the time.
    • Good point, have removed it.
  • Why does the German Cross have the extra detail in the Awards section? Looks out of place relative to the other awards.
    • Have removed it for consistency.
  • Images: The tags/fair use rationales appear appropriate to me.
  • No duplicate links.
  • No citation errors noted.

That's all for now, I will have a closer look at the prose later but on this first pass I don't see many issues that won't be fixed by a few commas in the right place :) Zawed (talk) 10:58, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

A high Waffen-SS leader, commanding an ethnic Waffen-SS Division in anti-Partisan-operations in Yugoslavia and there is not a single hint about atrocities and war crimes under his command and in his area of command. The same about the mutiny he suppressed in the Kama-Division. What happened during this mutiny? How was it suppressed? Another thing is, when was he released from American custody? How went his denazification? Were there any investigations against him? Did Yugoslavia tried to get him for their own war crimes trials? This are things that have to be included in good and A-Class articles about Waffen-SS personnel and if there werent any war crimes in his area of command thats even more noteworthy. --Bomzibar (talk) 10:15, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

G'day Bomzibar. Despite his brief command of a division undergoing formation, he was not a general (in fact he was a colonel), and a description of him as a "high Waffen-SS leader" is at the very least arguable given his rank. During my research regarding this fellow I have conducted an exhaustive search of online and library sources in English. I am unaware of any material about atrocities or war crimes specifically ordered by Raithel or committed by troops under Raithel's command between March and June 1944 while he was with the 13th SS Division. Equally, I have not seen any source that states he or his troops were involved in any such crimes while he was with the 6th SS Division or the 6th Mountain Division. If you are aware of such material I would be glad to add it to the article. However, there are sources that state that the 13th SS Division as a whole had a reputation for brutality and savagery, and did commit atrocities against Serb civilians in the divisional security zone. I have added what the sources say at the appropriate point in the body. The sources available in English do not mention how the mutiny was suppressed (the source actually says Raithel "managed to gain quick control of the situation", so I have modified the language regarding the mutiny to more closely abide by the source), why or when he was released by the Americans, or what denazification or investigations he underwent (if any). There are any number of possible reasons for this, including that his circumstances were unremarkable (given he was only a colonel). I daresay it is unlikely that a source would exist that categorically states that Raithel (or troops under his command) did not commit any war crimes or did not undergo investigation etc, but it would be WP:OR to state that they did or even opine that they might have without sources to back it up, so I have not done so. I am not aware of any sources in any language that deal with the matters you have raised. He was not extradited to Yugoslavia, and the source I have on the extradition of members of the 13th SS to Yugoslavia does not mention him at all in that respect. Only members of the 13th SS Division that were captured by the British were extradited (a total of 38). Thanks for your comment, I hope I have addressed it. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 14:34, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, that was my fault with the high leader, maybe because the equivalent of a colonel alone is not seen as notable in de:Wiki. I will take a look into the german version of Germany and the Second World War in my library next week if he is mentioned in any of the books. --Bomzibar (talk) 14:58, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
His military notability might be questionable on en:Wiki if he hadn't been awarded the Blood Order or commanded a division (however briefly). Although I think he would probably meet WP:GNG regardless given he has significant coverage in multiple reliable sources, including Yerger, Rusiecki and Lepre. I have searched available online versions of Germany in the Second World War for references to him, and came up blank, so anything you can find would be appreciated. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:33, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I found a few books in German language that have some content about Raithel. As they are not available in my library I asked another user if he can scan the appropriate pages at the Bavarian State Library. The books are:

  • Hans Werner Neulen (1985): An deutscher Seite. Internationale Freiwillige von Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS.
  • Roland Kaltenegger (1994): Schörner. Feldmarschall der letzten Stunde.
  • Roland kaltenegger (2008): Totenkopf & Edelweiß. General Artur Phleps und die südosteuropäischen Gebirgsverbände der Waffen-SS im Partisanenkampf auf dem Balkan 1942-1945.

All this books used the version Hellmuth for his first name instead of Helmuth but it is out of question that it is the same person. Sadly the right version of his name can only be found out by original research. Furthermore while searching for books on Raithel I found a french book about the Bosnian Waffen-SS divisions.

  • Amandine Rochas (2007): La Handschar: Histoire d'une division de Waffen-SS bosniaque.

Hopefully this shows you that my votes on your articles are not because of its you or I have a pesonal issue with the Waffen-SS but that Im just a German which naturally are more sceptical about SS-topics. ;) --Bomzibar (talk) 15:10, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly. Interested in anything you can provide to add to the article. I am also pretty much convinced he is the "Hellmut Raithel" mentioned in the Mount Russell (Alaska) article (as a member of the Deutscher Alpenverein but have not been able to confirm it with a reliable source. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, there is nothing new in Kaltenegger's Totenkopf & Edelweiß. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 12:14, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • "a 2,100 metres ... mountain": adj=on
  • "SS-Führungshauptamt, Oberkommando des Heeres, kampfgruppe, Maibaum": translations missing. (Btw, use "Maypole", not "May tree", for Maibaum).
  • "was appointed to command the 11th Gebirgsjäger Regiment Reinhard Heydrich": This sounds like he was appointed to command some guy named Reinhard.
  • "He was married ...": I think reviewers will ask you (at some point) to insert this in chronological order.
  • Support on prose per new standard disclaimer. - Dank (push to talk) 02:18, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support: Cdtew (talk)

  • Was he never a member of the party, even during the Hitler regime? How did he escape the qualification of being a party member in order to receive the Blood Order? If it was clerical error, does any source state that explicitly? Just a few questions that raises, the answers to which aren't clear.
    • How he got the Blood Order when he was not a NSDAP member isn't clear, but Yerger (which appears to be drawn from his SS file) states he didn't have a NSDAP number, so he was not a Party member according to the sources. There were quite a few senior Waffen-SS officers that were not NSDAP members. Seems hard to credit, but there you go.
  • "although he did not have any political beliefs at the time" - This is fairly hard to document, isn't it? I mean, I figure this would be better stated as "he did not have any stated political beliefs..." or "he claimed not to have any political beliefs..." (if it is based on his own statements).
    • Rusiecki's footnote goes to a series of sources, including his SS file and a conversation with one of Raithel's former colleagues. I've added "apparently"
  • I'm surprised no one caught that that whole paragraph ending in "..was not a member of the Party." doesn't have citation anywhere at the end. I presume this was split off from the following para, so I suppose there's a claim that the cites in para 2 cover it as well; I know I prefer to follow a one cite per paragraph rule, but obviously that isn't required by WP:CITE (as interpreted by WP:MINREF). Since your next cite is a double ref to Rusiecki and Yerger, I think this first paragraph (and possibly in the sentences before the dual-cited sentence) require citations for clarity.
    • Have tightened the citations to the sources, you're right, the para was split off, but it needed closer adhesion to the sources.
  • "Raithel led his regiment bravely" - This raises a slight flag for NPOV issues; is there a better way to say this, like "led his regiment with distinction" or "didn't avoid front-line combat"?
    • I changed it to "well", that'll do.
  • "for his leadership and courage" - another one; could it be better-stated as "with the recommendation citing his leadership and courage"? I suppose this could be an NPOV statement provided your neutral sources state he did things that were objectively courageous.
    • have modified it, let me know what you think?
  • Footnote issues
  • Fn 9: The source states that an earlier mutiny by Muslim soldiers in the 13th resulted in the execution of ringleaders; for some reason, Williamson pp 130-131 are hidden behind a G-wall for me, and so I can't see whether the same was true for the 23rd Kama. Do you have this source in hand, and can you confirm if it discusses the mutiny?
Actually, what I meant was to check in Williamson and see if it discusses it - Williamson p. 129 starts to talk about the mutiny, but Google Books fortuitously won't let me read 130-31. Cdtew (talk) 19:38, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fn14 matches the material in the article -- but it raises some concerns for me about Rusiecki. The author uses sometimes praising language to describe Raithel and his men; generally light admiration in a historical work can be expected, but given the sensitive nature of the subject matter, I think that should lead to using even more caution with this source (and dealing with the subtler NPOV issues I mentioned above).
  • Granted, and I have tweaked the language for the other points, but he is quoting an American commanding officer called Sparks, it is not Rusiecki's opinion. Nevertheless, I've added "ruefully", as it is clear from Rusiecki that the American felt it had cost them.

Otherwise, it looks like it's a perfectly fine A-class candidate, just needs a few things corrected or checked for A1/A2 issues. Cdtew (talk) 14:04, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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