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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Marcian

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Cinderella157 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 02:20, 15 August 2018 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Marcian

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Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Iazyges (talk)

Marcian (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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I am nominating this article for A-Class review because it is a part of my ongoing project to improve articles on the Roman Emperors, and it has recently been promoted to a good article. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:56, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by llywrch

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First, I'm responding to the notice at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, so I'm looking at this article differently than members of WikiProject Military history would. That said, two general observations:

  • While it relies on suitably recent publications, it is clear from their titles that these are general histories of the period. Nothing specific to the reign of Marcian or his predecessor (Theodosius II) or his successor (Leo I). The omission of any citations from the periodical literature is glaring, since this is where the most recent specialized work appears.
  • A serious omission is that there is almost nothing about his activities within the Empire: this article covers his rise to power, the foreign challenge of Attila & the Huns, & a paragraph dealing with Council of Chalcedon, & another with his death. It omits all mention of the collapse of the Western half of the Empire that began with the Vandal sack of Rome (454). (As the power & cohesion of the Western half dissipated, the Eastern half increasingly intervened in their affairs. At the very least, a number of refugees from Rome found their way to Constantinople where they had to be received & tended to.) Or that five laws (or Novels) of Marcian survive, providing us with glimpses of how he ruled the citizens of the Eastern Empire. These are enough of an omission to make me wonder how this article managed to achieve GA status. I'm no expert on the history of the Eastern Roman Empire, but it took me only a quick sanity check to see these omissions in content. -- llywrch (talk) 06:22, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Llywrch: Please note that most of these books each have subsections for his reign, being categorized by reign rather than a straightforward narrative. I will look into expanding it. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:55, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Llywrch: I have added as much as I could, although I could find little direct mention of his novels. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 03:29, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Llywrch: do you have any further suggestions or concerns? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 13:33, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Response: My comments were just an initial response, based on what I could recall off the top of my head supplemented by use of just one of the books from my library -- namely, A.H.M. Jones' The Later Roman Empire, considered one of the standard references for the time. In response to your ping, I did a bit more research to find what was available. Here's a few more thoughts:

  • The new section "Economic and legal policy" does cover what I would expect to find in those 5 novels of Marcian. About the only improvement would be to indicate which of those items were the subject of which novel. And if the info isn't in Pharr's translation of the Theodosian Code, then it's not easily available. (One might have to consult the primary sources, which might be only available in Latin or Greek.)
  • As for Marcian's relations with the West, my first response was surprise that this wasn't addressed. So I did a bit of looking myself, & this might be one of those cases where the info should exist -- but doesn't. There's adequate evidence indicating that Marcian & his successors did intervene in the affairs of the other half of the empire, but it's thin for the reign of Marcian. So far all I've found is a notice in Jordanes that the Western Roman Emperor Majorian "undertook the government of the Western Empire at the bidding of Marcian, Emperor of the East." (Gothic History, XLV.235) Not much more can be found at Majorian.
  • There is one book you may want to look at, although it falls in the category of "sources you don't want to cite for Wikipedia, but it's useful to point you to better ones": Michael Babcock, The Night Attila Died. Babcock is a Ph.D. in Philology who came up with a preposterous theory that Marcian hired the historian Priscus to assassinate Attila. (As one reviewer wrote, this makes for a better historical novel than a serious monograph.) Despite this, he knows the sources & period. He has a brief section on Marcian's background (pp. 157-160), which provides these details from primary sources:
    • According to Evagrius Scholasticus, Marcian was by birth a Thracian, the son of a soldier. He decided to enlist & on his way to Philippopolis stopped to bury a man recently slain by the side of the road, but other travelers thought he was the killer & brought him to the authorities, who would have executed him had the real criminal not been found. Following this close scrape, he finally presented himself to the recruitment bureau. Having heard of Marcian's story, instead of enlisting him as a common soldier they gave him the military rank of the man Marcian had found dead by the road. (Book 2, ch. 1 -- which is online at tertullian.org.)
      While this story alone seems fine; it's connected to another story where another "claim to the throne" story is given, which makes me wary of adding it. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:09, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • As a young soldier he went off to fight in the Persian Wars of the early 420s, but was delayed by illness. He was given shelter by two brothers, who nursed him back to health & witnessed a sign that he would become emperor. (In the Chronographia of Theophanes the Confessor, also supposedly online.)
      Unable to confirm this one. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:21, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Babcock has a third anecdote, taken from John Lydus, that foretold Marcian's rise to the purple.
      Confirmable; but almost all emperors claimed to have seen an event which foretold such, or atleast had another claim it for him. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:21, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I checked a few more references, but there is little more known about him. Feel free to add the above -- after verifying Babcock's retelling of these anecdotes is correct, of course. (At least I would verify them before adding them to an article.) -- llywrch (talk) 19:10, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Llywrch: Sorry for the belated response; I'll look into the anecdotes. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:12, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Llywrch: Forgot to inform; I have reviewed the anecdotes. While some of them are confirmable, but I am skeptical of their addability, given that many are distinct parts of "Claim to throne" myths. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:02, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Furius

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Small point, but the headings are a bit weird - why 'history' rather than 'life' or 'reign'? Why does the Council of Chalkedon come after Marcian's death? Furius (talk) 02:46, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Furius: Fixed. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 03:29, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Furius: Do you have any further concerns or suggestions? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 13:33, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by AustralianRupert

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Support: G'day, Iazyges. This isn't really an era I am comfortable with, but I will try to help out. I have a few observations: AustralianRupert (talk) 07:25, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • the date of birth isn't mentioned in the body
  •  Done
  • the first sentence of the Reign section is a bit of a run on. I suggest splitting it after 28 July 450 and then slightly rewording the second part, e.g. 28 July 450. Theodosius II died without a son and had not designated a successor, leaving the Eastern Roman Empire leaderless.
  •  Done
  • a tax on senators property: missing apostrophe
  •  Done
  • slightly repetitious: a fifty year old army officer commanding a unit in the Praesental army (suggest removal of the first "army") here
  •  Done
  • the infobox seems to mention a daughter, but she doesn't appear to be mentioned in the body of the article (unless I missed it)
  •  Done
  • the burial place appears in the infobox, but does not appear to be mentioned in the body of the article
  •  Done
  • Alanic: the link in the article appears to point to a clothing company?
  •  Done
  • the images lack alt text, which while it isn't a requirement, can be helpful
  •  Done
  • in the Bibliography, suggest adjusting the capitalisation here: History of the Later Roman Empire from the death of Theodosius... --> History of the Later Roman Empire from the Death of Theodosius...
  •  Done
  • I will come back and have another look when the above points are addressed

From Gog the Mild

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Just a drive by comment: shouldn't "Foederati" in the lead start with a lower case f and be in italics? An explanation in brackets afterwards as to what a foederati is would probably help the average reader too. In fact, would it not be easier to replace it with something like "vassals", possibly with foederati, wikiLinked, in brackets after? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:49, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've lowercased and italicized it, and added a short explanation. I haven't changed it to vassal, as the Roman's had a huge variation of vassal levels (although their titles were often muddled in the time of the republic and early empire). Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:25, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

comments by auntieruth

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first paragraph of lead: last sentence is very confusing. Perhaps divide into two?
 Done
While Attila was taking part in the Hunnic raids upon Italy, then a part of the Western Roman Empire, in 452, Marcian launched expeditions across the Danube into the Hungarian plain, defeating the Huns in their heartland, an action which, accompanied by the famine and plague that broke out in northern Italy, allowed Attila to be bribed to retreat to the Hungarian plains. same problem with this sentence. In 452, while Attila was raiding Italy, then a part of the Western Roman Empire, Marcian launched expeditions across the Danube into the Hungarian plain, defeating the Huns in their own heartland. This action, accompanied by the famine and plague that broke out in northern Italy, allowed Marcian to bribe Atilla into retreating from the Italian peninsula.
 Done
need a link on Jesus
 Done
and so on. Such edits would greatly help its readability without reducing it to elementary school level. Please let me know if you want some help. I'll come back and read some more later. Please ping me with any comments or questions! auntieruth (talk) 19:33, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Auntieruth55: Thank you very much. I'd appreciate any help you can give! Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:00, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by White Shadows

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Fascinating subject! I enjoyed reading the article and I'd like to thank you for the work you've put into it thus far. My comments and suggestions are below. Please feel free to ask questions if you need me to elaborate more.

  • A1. The article/list is consistently referenced with an appropriate citation style, and all claims are verifiable against reputable sources, accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge, and are supported with specific evidence and external citations as appropriate.
No issues here!
  • A2. The article/list is comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral and focused on the main topic; it neglects no major facts or details, presents views fairly and without bias, and does not go into unnecessary detail.
As someone who is not an expert on the time period, you'd think there would be more information on the Emperor of the Roman Empire during the time of Attila? There is, quite literally, almost nothing on his life before his becoming Emperor and having a daughter at some point. I get that little may exist out there on his earlier life, but surely there is something?
There are a few stories which are very likely legendary, and all connected to verifying his claim to the throne, so I don't feel comfortable adding them as fact, nor do I feel comfortable dedicating that much area to rumors. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:47, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I also feel like that we're missing some other basic info here. For example, it took me about all of 5 minutes to find out where Marcian died. That information isn't present anywhere in the article. Surely we have sources out there that contain additional information such as this?
I'll look into if any secondary sources cover this. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:47, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • A3. The article/list has an appropriate structure of hierarchical headings, including a concise lead section that summarizes the topic and prepares the reader for the detail in the subsequent sections, and a substantial but not overwhelming table of contents.
I suggest splitting the lead up into a third section, starting with "After the death of Attila in 453..."
 Done
  • A4. The article/list is written in concise and articulate English; its prose is clear, is in line with style guidelines, and does not require substantial copy-editing to be fully MoS-compliant.
I feel like other parts of the article have too many long blocks of text with little breaks between them. Under "Religious Policy" for example, I suggest splitting the section into two paragraphs starting with the line "The council also agreed to condemn Pope Dioscorus I of Alexandria..." :I suggest the same for the "Conflict with the Huns" section. That initial paragraph is very long in my personal opinion. All of this is aesthetic in nature, but walls of text tend to make things more difficult for the reader.
 Done
  • A5. The article/list contains appropriately licensed supporting visual materials, such as images or diagrams with succinct captions, and other media, where relevant.
I feel like the alt text for the map of Europe can be expanded upon. What states are being colored for example? Alt text if I recall is supposed to demonstrate to a reader what the image is showing those who can visually see it. I don't see how simply stating that this is a colored map is of any use for someone who relies on alt text.

 Done --White Shadows Let’s Talk 05:02, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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  • Just a few queries from me:
    • the existing sources look of high quality and reliable, although I am not familiar with this time period
    • all sources need a location
    •  Done
    • a few sources that jump out that might need to be consulted: The World of the Huns: Studies in Their History and Culture (1973) by Otto Maenchen-Helfen and Otto Helfen; History as Literature in Byzantium edited by Ruth Macrides; Child Emperor Rule in the Late Roman West, AD 367-455 by Meaghan A. McEvoy? Do they add anything substantial?
      The World of Huns does not add anything of substance, and I am reserved at using it even as an extra citation, given that they seem to be very counter-consensus on numerous issues, such as why Atilla raided Gaul, but do not actually offer their own suggestions. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 16:25, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      History as Literature in Byzantium: Was able to find a Google Book (without page numbers unfortunately); there is nothing that can be added text wise. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:10, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      Child Emperor Rule in the Late Roman West: I was able to add some bits of info, especially regarding the unfortunately minute section on Western-Eastern relations. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:05, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • the isbn's are inconsistent, suggest standardising them with proper hyphenation.
    •  Done

That's it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:02, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Gog the Mild

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  • " a budget surplus of seven million solidi." A normal reading of this would be a surplus each year on the annual budget, but in the main article you state " left the Eastern Roman treasury with a surplus of 100,000 pounds (45,000 kg) of gold", ie 7,200,000 solidi. Perhaps you could tweak the wording of the lead?
  •  Done
  • "on 28 July 450 the empire was met its first succession crisis in 60 years" Grammar tweak needed.
  •  Done
  • "Soon after becoming emperor, Marcian had his daughter Marcia Euphemia, who came from a previous marriage, marry Anthemius, future Western Roman Emperor, in 453." IMO you don't need the "Soon after becoming emperor" if you give the actual date in the same sentence. Anyway, I would not describe a delay of three years as "soon". And does one simple sentence really need 5 citations? 2 of them to the same source?
  •  Done
  • "After Eastern Emperor Theodosius II died unexpectedly in a riding accident on 28 July 450 the empire was met its first succession crisis in 60 years, as Theodosius did not have any sons, nor had he designated any successor." You use the same 5 cites to 4 sources to reference this equally simple sentence. Is that really necessary?
  •  Done
  • "was eliminated, either by murder or execution". MOS:EUP would suggest 'killed', not "eliminated".
  •  Done
  • "Almost immediately after becoming emperor, Marcian reversed the policies of Theodosius, revoking all treaties with Attila" The second clause only makes sense if one has read the section title, whereas the text should be comprehensible on its own.
  •  Done
  • "... but did not alter his plans to invade the Western Roman Empire. He led his horde west from Pannonia in spring 451, into the Western Roman Empire." IMO the second "Western Roman Empire" is redundant.
  •  Done
  • "During this period, Aetius was unable to launch an attack on Attila, more so than cutting his lines of communication and harassing his rear forces." "more so than..."?
  •  Done
  • "he was seriously lacking on funds". 'in funds', or just 'lacking funds'.
  •  Done
  • "was threatened by Eastern Rome which". What is "Eastern Rome"? I would suggest 'the Eastern Empire'. Likewise a couple of sentences later.
  •  Done
  • "which were safely hidden behind Constantinople". "hidden"? Probably not. 'protected'? 'situated.?
  •  Done
  • "after a wedding celebration to one of his many wives". Suggest 'after celebrating a marriage to one of his many wifes'.
  •  Done
  • "to resume its policy of playing barbarians against each other". I'm being picky here, but the usual term is 'playing off '.
  •  Done
  • "king Ardaric formed an agreement with Marcian. Ardaric had formed a coalition of the Rugians". Suggest 'came to' instead of the first "formed".
  •  Done
  • "Ellac himself was killed". Suggest "himself" is redundant, who else would he be?
  •  Done
  • "was extremely beneficial to Eastern Rome". Suggest losing "extremely" per MOS:PUFF.
  •  Done
  • "could be induced to serve East Rome". Eastern Empire, Eastern Rome, East Rome. Suggest picking one and sticking with it.
  •  Done
  • "The most objectionable decision reached by the council was". Objectionable to whom? Why was it objectionable?
  •  Done
  • "The council, despite intending to be a ecumenical council". Councils are inanimate and so cannot intend anything. Suggest 'despite being called as a', or 'despite the intention that it be'.
  •  Done
  • "Initially it was to be held at the city of Nicaea, which held enormous religious importance to the early church, as it was the site of their first council, the First Council of Nicaea in 325, however Marcian successfully requested to transfer the spot to Chalcedon, because it was closer to Constantinople, and would thus allow him to respond quickly to any events along the Danube, which was being raided by the Huns, under Attila." A long and complicated sentence.
  •  Done
  • "which had taken place during the Second Council of Ephesus". Suggest just 'the Council' as it is given in full earlier in the sentence.
  •  Done
  • "iterated". Three dictionaries state that this is archaic. Suggested 'repeated'.
  •  Done Well, those three dictionaries hate cool words.
  • "see of Constantinople". See.
  •  Done
  • "Marcian made numerous edicts". One normally issues an edict.
  •  Done
  • "forbidding them to criticize the Council of Chalcedon". 'from', not "to".
  •  Done
  • "suppress monks in Roman Palestine". IMO "Roman" is unnecessary, even confusing. (Was there another Palestine?)
  •  Done I included it on the off chance someone involved in the massive Israel–Palestine debate would see it and mess with it; I have a note in their anyways, so it should be fine to remove.
  • "As a result of the council and following edicts". ' the following edicts'.
  •  Done
  • "all of which focused on the construction of churches, including .. . the Hodegon Monastery". [?]
  •  Done
  • "a tax on senator's property". Should be 'senators' '.
  •  Done
  • "only the Vir illustris could hold either offices". 'office'. Singular.
  •  Done
  • "both Flavius Zeno, Pulcheria, and Aspar". Both implies 2, you list 3.
  •  Done
  • "passed away... passed away". 'died'?
  •  Done
  • "despite Aspar's huge influence". "huge" is a little MOS:PUFFish.
  •  Done
  • "Marcian patronized the Blues, who were one of the originally four circus teams; who had by his time become more like political parties than sports teams, wielding large influence in the empire, the other being the Greens, with both vying for power." You should clarify that by this time there were only two teams.
  •  Done
  • "forbidding them to hold any public office for three years". 'forbidding any of them to hold any public office for three years'.
  •  Done
  • "Marcian came to the throne during a time where the". 'when', not "where".
  •  Done
  • "broke an engagement treaty with the Vandals". Suggest Wikilinking "engagement", IMO the meaning would not otherwise be clear.
  •  Done
  • "he was did not have any connection to the Theodosians". Delete "was".
  •  Done
  • "and thus would not be considered legitimate, thus Aspar was once again". Two thus's, a little clunky.
  •  Done
  • "but also to a some manner of luck". ?
  •  Done
  • "the largest external threats to Rome". That is accurate, but 'greatest' may convey your meaning better.
  •  Done

Can I (again) commend the services of GoCE to you.

Indeed. I was planning to ask for a GoCE run through before nominating it for FA, assuming it passed here. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:10, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on sources to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:34, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on sources
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  • Several cases of references not being in number order. Could you reorder where appropriate.
  •  Done
  • The "Early life" section has two cases of single sentences being cited to 5 references, in each case 2 of them are to the same source. Is this degree of overkill necessary?
  •  Done
  • I am not sure that Lynn Jones is the author of any of the essays which your cites relate to; she is the editor, and author of only one essay.
    I've removed all references to her, since they aren't needed. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:10, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • An optional thought: might it be appropriate to mention that Marcian found it necessary to reissue an earlier law forbidding pagan sacrifices?
  •  Done
  • Checking a couple of sources which you don't use I can find nothing else of significance which you don't mention, nor anything which contradicts the article. It is a good summary of what we know about Marcian and his policies. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:01, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

G'day Nikkimaria would you mind checking the licensing on the images of this one? It looks otherwise good to go. Thanks as always. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:22, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest scaling up the map, but even at larger size it is difficult to distinguish the lighter colour from white

 Done

Can't say that taking away the caption entirely really solves the problem! Nikkimaria (talk) 02:07, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For some reason it won't let me scale up the image and keep the caption; so I've scaled it back down to its original size. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 07:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Icones_imperatorvm_romanorvm,_ex_priscis_numismatibus_ad_viuum_delineatae,_and_breui_narratione_historicâ_(1645)_(14560242177).jpg: per the Flickr tag, is a more specific copyright tag available?
  •  Done
  • File:450_roman-hunnic-empire_1764x1116.jpg needs a US PD tag, as does File:Fourth_ecumenical_council_of_chalcedon_-_1876.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:33, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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