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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Siege of Tunis (Mercenary War)

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by CPA-5 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 15:20, 15 November 2021 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Siege of Tunis (Mercenary War)

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Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Gog the Mild (talk)

Siege of Tunis (Mercenary War) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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A brutal episode from a brutal war during a brutal period. War to the knife indeed. Sources scraped and, thanks to some relatively recent scholarship, there should be just about enough to warrant A class. You may differ, so go to it. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from AustralianRupert: G'day, Gog, this isn't an area I know much about, but figured I'd give it a look anyway. I only have a few minor suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 13:04, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • suggest mentioning October in the lead to match the infobox
Done.
  • "Mathos in turn abandoned Tunis and withdrew south" --> "Despite having lifted the siege, Mathos in turn abandoned Tunis and withdrew south"?
Done.
  • "The Carthaginians frequently employed war elephants; North Africa had indigenous African forest elephants at the time.[note 3]" --> suggest adding a citation beside this sentence, not just a note (even if it replicates the citation in the note) to make it clear from where it is sourced
Good spot. I am not sure how the cites went walkabout. Added.
  • compare note 1 and 4, is this the same person? If so, suggest making the presentation of the name the same and removing the link in Note 4
The presentation is the same[?] Note 4 link removed.
G'day, the issue was the way in which one instance linked the whole name while the other only linked the first part of the name; the inconsistency has been dealt with by removing the second link. AustralianRupert (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Leiden ; Boston: Brill" --> remove the space before the semi colon
Done.
  • link parley
Done.
  • "Mathos let him go unmolested" --> do we know why?
I have one source which speculates about this and added it.
  • "The city was difficult to access as to its east was the sea while to the west was a large salt marsh" --> "The city was difficult to access. The sea lay to the east, while an approach from the west was hampered by a large salt marsh"?
Done.
  • "few supplies were getting through" --> "few supplies arrived"?
Done.
  • suggest mentioning in the opposing forces section that not all of the 20,000 were engaged, to match the infobox
That seems out of chronological order. I have instead made it clear at the point where I cover the attack.
Fair enough, although arguably an opposing forces section can introduce facts slightly out of chronological order, by way of analysis, so long as it doesn't rely to heavily on facts not yet in evidence and do so can sometimes make the battle narrative easier to follow, IMO. For instance, "X's force was 20,000, although ultimately not all of these men would be engaged in the ensuing battle". Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks AR and apologies for taking so long to get back to you. All of your comments addressed. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:16, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

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Support Comments from Iazyges

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Will also take this up as a regular review. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:39, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Since I'm assuming you'll take this to FAC, I'll do my best to give you the full FAC experience. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:56, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Lede
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  • At the Siege of Tunis suggest During the Siege of Tunis
Done.
  • on Sicily suggest in Sicily
Done.
  • strongest remaining stronghold suggest sturdiest remaining stronghold (just generally don't like double usage of strong-related words, happy for other fixes)
  • the ten captured rebels suggest the ten captured rebel leaders, or else change the earlier at the Battle of the Saw, capturing its leaders to at the Battle of the Saw, capturing ten of its leaders, so we have it in context and understand that these ten people are important.
Done.
  • Despite having broken the siege, Mathos in turn abandoned Tunis and withdrew south suggest removing "in turn"
Done.
Background
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  • While the war with Rome was being played out, the Carthaginian general Hanno was leading a series... suggest During the war with Rome, the Carthaginian general Hanno led a series...
Changed "leading" to "led", but I want to convey that this was during the tail end of the war. I am open to suggestions.
Mutiny
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  • The Carthaginian army of 20,000 men on Sicily was evacuated to Carthage given the hop in the time frame, from the end of the war to during war and now back to end of the war, may be useful to insert something like After the signing of the treaty, the Carthaginian army of 20,000 men on Sicily was evacuated to Carthage.
Good point, rephrased.
Opposing armies
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Done.
Aftermath
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  • 25,000 men and a large number of war elephants, including every Carthaginian citizen of military age. suggest 25,000 men, including every Carthaginian citizen of military age, and a large number of war elephants.
Done.
Excellent stuff. Thanks Iazyges, all of your comments addressed. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:22, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
PS, no, I wasn't planning on taking this to FAC. Of the six field battles of the Truceless War, I reckon that that three, maybe four, have enough "meat" on the actual battle to support a FAC nomination. This is one which doesn't. (IMO) Gog the Mild (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

HF - support

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Will review this weekend. Hog Farm Talk 15:35, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Half of all agricultural output was taken as war tax, and the tribute previously due from towns and cities was doubled" - is this only for new conquests, or were "core" Carthaginian territories subject to these increases as well
All. Added.
  • Is it known why Spendius and Mathos were proclaimed generals? Did they have any real or perceived special experience?
No, and no. One modern historian speculates that they floated to the top as the main rabble rousers and representatives of the most intransigent group. But there isn't consensus on this so I haven't included it.
  • "At some point between March and September 239 BC the previously loyal cities of Utica and Hippo slew their Carthaginian garrisons and joined the rebels" - is it known why?
That took a bit of research - always tricky to establish a negative. In brief, no.
  • I see that with the Carthaginians in the infobox, it notes that not all were engaged - shouldn't this be put for the rebels, as well, per "Although only a part of the rebel army participated, it surprised the Carthaginians and their northern camp was overrun"?
I am rubbish at checking infoboxes. Y'know, there has probably never been a battle where every participant was engaged, so I am removing the caveat.

That's it from me, excellent work here as usual. Hog Farm Talk 02:52, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hog Farm, thanks for that. All addresssed. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:44, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Image review - pass
  • Licensing and other points look fine
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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