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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Theodore Komnenos Doukas

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Anotherclown (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 00:06, 17 March 2016 (UTC) §« Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Theodore Komnenos Doukas

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Nominator(s): Constantine ✍

Theodore Komnenos Doukas (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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One of the most energetic, ambitious, and indefatigable of the post-Fourth Crusade Greek rulers, Theodore captured Thessalonica from the Latins and almost succeeded in recovering Constantinople too and restoring the Byzantine Empire 30 years before it actually happened. He was then captured by the Tsar of Bulgaria, released when the latter became his son-in-law, deposed his brother to regain Thessalonica, and ruled it via his sons for several years before it was captured by the Empire of Nicaea. In a final act of defiance against Nicaea he urged his nephew the ruler of Epirus (whom he had deposed at the beginning of his reign) to launch a joint attack, which failed. All in all, he could have been an exemplary character from Game of Thrones... The article was thoroughly rewritten using several high-quality sources (Varzos' biographical work in particular), and is quite complete and comprehensive. It passed GA yesterday, and I'd like to take it to FA eventually. Constantine ✍ 15:27, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Good work with this one, it looks like it meets the A-class criteria to me. I have the following comments/suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 02:56, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • tool check: there are no dabs, the ext links all work, and alt text is present (no action required);
  • the duplicate link checker tool identifies the following links as duplicates: Despotate of Epirus, Macedonia (region), Thessaly, Baldwin II of Constantinople, Battle of Klokotnitsa, Alexios I Komnenos, and Maria Petraliphaina;
  • the article appears to be well referenced to reliable sources and uses a citation style that appears to be consistent (no action required);
  • in the Sources section, could the foreign language titles be translated (you do this for Varzos, but not the others)?
  • "File:Theodor I. Despot von Epirus.jpg": needs a US licence also on the image description page;
  • "File:Stefan the First-Crowned, fresco from Mileševa.jpg": seems to be missing quite a few details on the image description page and the description probably should be translated into English; additionally, I think that the PD-Art licence needs adjustment to include a licence parameter;
  • "File:Peter 2 of Courtenay.jpg": needs a US licence;
  • "File:John III Doukas Vatatzes.jpg": the PD-Art licence needs adjustment to include a licence parameter;
  • "File:Tsar Ivan Asen II cropped.png": needs a US licence as well. AustralianRupert (talk) 02:56, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot AustralianRupert for taking the time to review this. The issues you have raised have been addressed. Per the usual question, aside from the narrow ACR criteria, is there anything you'd like to see improved? Were you able to follow the article or should more background info be provided somewhere? Constantine ✍ 21:07, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. Yes, it seemed fine to me in those regards. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 23:20, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

  • " In the event": Avoid this phrase; it will confuse most English speakers.
  • "In ca. 1210": Around 1210
  • Recently, I've started doing the same things at A-class that I've been doing at Peer Review, and not supporting or opposing. I've copyedited down to Ruler of Epirus and skimmed the rest, and I don't think prose issues will be a problem at WP:FAC, if you want to take it there after you're done here. At FAC, I'll be happy to support on prose and copyedit the rest, although I may wait until you get one or two supports first. - Dank (push to talk) 21:03, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As usual, thanks for your improvements. I've replaced "in ca." and "in the event", although regarding the latter (and similar cases in the past) I must confess it always puzzles me why a perfectly fine English phrase, which I learned from English books, should be changed for being "confusing" to English-speakers... Anyhow, looking forward to the rest of your copyedits :) Constantine ✍ 11:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
G'day, from my perspective I think the term has gone out of favour in professional writing recently. I'm in my early 30s now (on the cusp of Gen X and Gen Y), and I certainly grew up reading books that included the term, and was comfortable with what it meant. However, of late I've not seen it used much. I don't really know why, but I suspect that younger readers wouldn't understand what it means, having probably never come across it. Dan will no doubt be able to explain the reasons better than me. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 23:43, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's one great reason, AR, thanks for that. The other reason is that, for most English speakers, "in the event" means "in case", and they've never made the connection to the other meaning. - Dank (push to talk) 02:48, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Dank, I realize the reason behind your recommendation, and my comment above was not meant as criticism in any way. It was just an attempt to voice my unease with the line of argument "let's abandon something because nobody else recognizes it", at least in language use (and in utter antithesis to my RL job as an engineer). I've always considered it fun to encounter new/weird/archaic words or phrases, and IMO, language shouldn't be simplified; quite the reverse, one should struggle to keep it as rich as possible. Consequently, pruning it to remove phrases that are now beginning to fall out of use strikes me as unconstructive. "In the event" is IMO a very handy phrase, and replacing it with "Finally", or "In the end" is not quite the same. However, perhaps this is just the opinion (and frustration) of someone who actually enjoyed learning Ancient Greek at school, and I realize many people probably don't share my enthusiasm... (Rant over). Constantine ✍ 13:38, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I have uploaded another file of Theodore Komnenos Doukas from CNG without licence limitations. If it's more appropriate than File:Theodor I. Despot von Epirus.jpg, you may use it. --Odysses (○) 16:40, 20 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

File:Theodore Comnenus-Ducas cropped.jpg

Support Comments

This article has been sitting around for too long, so I have moved out of my comfort zone (Milhist 20th century bios/units being more my thing) to have a look. I have the following comments:

  • First sentence of the lead, shouldn't "Latinized" be "latinized"?
    • I've seen both forms, but AFAIK the capitalized form is the correct one, e.g. "Germanized" or "Hellenized".
  • Still on the lead, I suggest wikilinking "Byzantine imperial throne" to "Byzantine Empire" or a suitable variant.
  • Early life section: For consistency with how you have appeared to dealt with scholars/academics, wikilink for Raymond-Joseph Loenertz? (I assume it will be a redlink like Antoine Bon; alternatively, remove the redlink for Bon). This may apply elsewhere as noted below.
  • Ruler of Epirus section: Wikilink Byzantine Empire, the chronicler Ephraim, and possibly I. D. Romanos, John V. A. Fine, Philip Van Tricht
  • "three Western chronicles": it may be worth adding what these were in a separate note (suggestion only)
    • Fine unfortunately does not mention them by name; I have rewritten the section to include some of the main Western sources of these events, however.
  • "With the first contingents for the crusade began assembling ...": doesn't read right, maybe "With" should be "When" or the "began" deleted?
  • Emperor of Thessalonica section: possibly wikilink Lucien Stiernon, Apostolos D. Karpozilos, Eleni Bees-Seferli, Alkmini Stavridou-Zafraka
  • "...to his eleven-year-old brother, Baldwin II (r. 1228–73)...": should the (r. 1228-73) be used on Baldwin's first mention or does that disrupt that narrative?
  • "...resisted with valour...": peacock terminology.
  • "...emperor kept these news..." : "these" should be "this"?
  • Sources section: some books appear to lack place of publication.

Otherwise, this looks to be an excellent article. I will check back in a couple of days. Cheers. Zawed (talk) 01:12, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot Zawed for your review! I've started going through your remarks. I'll strike through the issues dealt with, and leave answers underneath otherwise. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 11:52, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, I have added my support. Cheers. Zawed (talk) 08:21, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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