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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Uroš Drenović

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Eddie891 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 03:20, 27 January 2021 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Uroš Drenović

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Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (talk)

Uroš Drenović (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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After a long pause, here is another Chetnik leader. A pre-war Royal Yugoslav Army reserve officer, Drenović initially threw his lot in the with the Partisans in the uprising against the genocidal Ustashas in the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) after the Axis invasion in 1941. His Serb-chauvinist tendencies soon got the better of him and he eventually betrayed the Partisans during an operation against the Italians, and was forced to seek the protection of the NDH authorities, with whom he concluded a collaboration agreement. He met his end in an Allied air raid on Banja Luka in 1944. This passed GA five years ago, but I have recently been through and updated it with some new material, as well as brought it up a peg with a more comprehensive lead and some contextual information about the way he is remembered in the Serb entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review—pass
  • English sources look OK for RS, I am not sure about the non-English ones but will AGF that they meet RS criteria.
  • Source checks to Christia; no issues found. (t · c) buidhe 08:59, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Buidhe. The local news outlets aren't the NYT or WaPo, but they are ok for what they are citing. Trikić & Repajić is published by a Yugoslav military-specialist house that published a lot of Partisan unit and formation histories during the post-war communist period, so have a tendency to be biased towards the Partisans, but I never use them for anything controversial or political, just bare facts, in this case Drenović's military training and service before the war. Petrić was a writer and poet in later life, and had a PhD (1981) from the University of Sarajevo. She was a Partisan youth functionary during the war, and rose to quite a high rank in her post-war career within communist Yugoslavia, but is only used for uncontroversial biographical information here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:19, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

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  • First sentence: I found it difficult to follow. Perhaps 'Uroš Drenović (Serbo-Croatian Cyrillic: Урош Дреновић; 1911 – 29 May 1944) was a Bosnian Serb military commander in the central Bosnia region of the Independent State of Croatia (NDH), the fascist Ustaše-led puppet state, during World War II." This may just be personal preference. (I have a similar issue with the first sentence of "Bosanska Krajina uprising".)
Sure, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by capturing Mrkonjić Grad". Possibly insert 'the town of'? I assumed it was a person until I hovered on hte link.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This included local uprisings in southwest Bosnia, which spread across the NDH, but the KPJ organisation was initially swept along rather than leading the rebellion." I am unsure why you use "but"; was the KPJ swept along in just southwest Bosnia or the whole of Bosnia. And why, I thought they had initiated the uprising.
Clarified, I hope. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "senior members of the Partisan staff for Bosanska Krajina" I think that you need to either drop the last three words or briefly explain them. (I note that it is used again, so maybe an inline explanation?)
This is a bit of unclear and archaic language, I have replaced it with "leadership", as it refers to commanders, commissars and headquarters staff of the detachment and the region. Is that an improvement? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "responsible for the territory of central Bosnia". Is "responsible" the right word? Maybe 'operating in'?
tweaked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "currents"? Umm.
is "undercurrents" better? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It may just be me, and I could live with either of those, but how about 'sympathies' or similar?
  • "only 11 had commanders that were members of". 'who were'?
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In return, the Staff of the 3rd Krajina Detachment". Lower case s?
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Partisan staff for Bosanska Krajina later observed that the Staff of the 3rd Krajina Detachment" Staff and staff?
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " the leading exponent of Chetnik ideology". Maybe an inline summary of what this was?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "defected to the Chetniks". So who were the Chetniks?
Added a bit, but the earlier description of Chetnik ideology also contributes to this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Redžić quote should be a block quote.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "made public by the entire Ustaše press" Is "entire" needed?
No, deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a team from the Brandenburg Division". Perhaps insert 'German'? And the Wikilink is to the wrong target.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Drenović is considered a Chetnik vojvoda". A translation for the benefit of English language readers?
warlord, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 2014, the ceremony was not attended by any officials of the Republika Srpska entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina." it seems odd that 2014 is singled out. Was this non-attendance unusual?
Not as far as I can tell, added a source for 2017 and generalised. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "are celebrated by official history". Maybe 'are celebrated in the official history'?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "each that the Chetniks are on the same". "are" to 'were'?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You are a braver editor than I am, having a go at explaining that snake pit of relationships. Nicely readable. Some niggles above. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:51, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review Gog, I enjoy drilling down into this stuff and cutting through the propaganda of all sides. See what you think of my responses? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's looking pretty good. An all but incomprehensible situation made digestible and a decent biography slipped into the middle. Bravo! Supporting, although note one comment above. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:53, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed remaining comment re: sympathies. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:07, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Hog Farm

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I'll take a look. Hog Farm Talk 05:41, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lead says he formed the 3rd Battalion, while the body says he commanded it. These aren't necessarily equivalent.
Hoare says the Partisans formed these units, so I changed the lead to command. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the loosely-organised Serb-chauvinist guerilla movement putatively led by Draža Mihailović" - It might make sense to move this gloss of the Chetniks to one of the earlier spots where the Chetniks are mentioned.
Good idea, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • " According to the Serbian language BN Televizija" - Maybe this is just the way I'm reading it, but it seems to me that along the lines of "According to the Serbian-language television station BN Televizija", but that may just be an American English thing where it seems like there's the type of media the channel is is needed.
I assumed people would look at "Televizija" and recognise it was a television station, but added for clarity. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In recent years, the ceremony was not attended by any officials of the Republika Srpska entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina" - Is there a particular significance to this?
The Serbian nationalism and the Chetnik legacy in Republika Srpska are controversial, and this implies a level of political disapproval given his local prominence as a Chetnik. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe Death and legacy for the section heading, rather than just Death?
Sure, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All done, Hog Farm, see what you think of my changes? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting. If you'd like to do a small favor for me, could you assess Raymond Confederate order of battle against the B-list criteria? It's my first orbat attempt, so I'm not sure exactly how high of quality it is. Hog Farm Talk 04:04, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I've done a couple of Featured orbats. Be happy to. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:08, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright

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Greetings PM - A bevy of minor items for you to consider. Pendright (talk) 07:44, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

  • Uroš Drenović (Serbo-Croatian Cyrillic: Урош Дреновић; 1911 – 29 May 1944) was a Bosnian Serb military commander in the central Bosnia region of the Independent State of Croatia (NDH), fascist Ustaše-led puppet state, during World War II.
  • Cyrillic -> link or refer to it as alphabet
  • Since "Урош Дреновић" is another spelling of his name, it should be enclosed with commas instead of a colon and a semicolon
The colon is generated by the language template, not sure I can do much about this without reverting to plain text and links, and MOS:LEADLANG does say "a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence, usually in parentheses" given that, would replacing the semicolon with a comma do? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:48, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
<> The circumstances suggest the call should be yours to make. Pendright (talk) 22:26, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • add an article before fascist
Done. Not sure how I missed that... Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:48, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete the comma after state
But the subject is Drenović, not the NDH, and "during WWII" refers to his command? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:48, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
<>"during World War II" is a dependent clause -> Your grasp of Australian grammar is greater than mine, but my online search turned-up the following on comma usage with dependent clauses: If a dependent clause ends the sentence, it does not require a comma. Only use a comma to separate a dependent clause at the end of a sentence for added emphasis, usually when negation occurs. -> Your experience will have to guide you on this one.
  • Drenović joined the Yugoslav Partisans[,] and distinguished himself during the initial uprising against [the] NDH authorities by capturing the town of Mrkonjić Grad in August 1941
Consider the above changes
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:48, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Drenović subsequently led Serb-chauvinist agitation within the 3rd Krajina Detachment[,] and resisted [the] Communist Party of Yugoslavia (Serbo-Croatian Latin[,] : Komunistička partija Jugoslavije, KPJ)[,] control of its units.
Consider the above changes and link Latin, or replace it with language in each subsequent usage. Cyrillic and Latin seem close enough in meaning to use one or the other for consistency?
Reordered the sentence, but the same language template issue arises here. Also, Cyrillic and Latin are just scripts of the same language, Serbo-Croatian, so I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:48, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
<> Now, all good! Pendright (talk) 22:26, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was the leading exponent of Chetnik ideology in central Bosnia, and despised Muslims and Croats.
The last clause is dependent, so a comma is not used
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:48, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • After some vacillation, he eventually betrayed the Partisans during an operation against the Italian occupiers,[;] sided [siding] with the royalist and Serb-chauvinist Chetniks [while] and commander[ing his own Chetnik unit.
See if you can live with these suggested changes?
Done. Great stuff. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:48, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
<> Thanks! Pendright (talk) 22:26, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • In April 1942, he and other Chetnik defectors from the Partisans were defeated by the Partisans and Drenović fled to Banja Luka, where he concluded an alliance with the NDH to fight the Partisans.
Consider this instead -> In April 1942, the Partisans defeated Drenović and other Chetnik defectors from the Partisans, and he fled to Banja Luka where he concluded an alliance with the NDH to fight the Partisans.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:48, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Early life:

  • He finished teachers' college in Sarajevo,[1][2] and became a schoolmaster at Baraći near Banja Luka in the Bosanska Krajina region of Bosnia in what was now the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.[2]
  • near Banja Luka -> this is additional information and it's not essential to the meanong of the sentence - enclose with commas.
  • now?
  • If known, would his age at graduation be of interest to readers?
Done, the country was created in 1918 (after he was born, so it had changed), not in sources. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:48, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prior to the outbreak of World War II, he attended the Royal Yugoslav Army (Serbo-Croatian Latin,: Vojska Kraljevine Jugoslavije, VKJ)[,] reserve officer training school at Bileća, and was serving in the VKJ reserve.
Cosider the above changes
See my earlier comments re the language template, also "the Royal Yugoslav Army (Serbo-Croatian Latin: Vojska Kraljevine Jugoslavije, VKJ) reserve officer training school" is one phrase, I am not sure why the last comma helps?
<> I agree! Pendright (talk) 01:39, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:48, 21 January 2021 (UTC) World War II:[reply]

  • Soon after the German-led invasion of Yugoslavia in April 1941, largely spontaneous uprisings began to occur throughout the newly created Axis puppet state, the Independent State of Croatia(Serbo-Croatian Latin[,] : Nezavisna Država Hrvatska, NDH),[6] which was governed by the fascist Ustaše.
Consider the anove changes
this is the language template again, also, I think the comma inside the parentheses is needed to separate the term and its initialism. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:37, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
<> Okay - Pendright (talk) 01:39, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • On 4 July, in the wake of the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union, the Communist Party of Yugoslavia (Serbo-Croatian Latin[,] : Komunistička partija Jugoslavije, KPJ)[,] decided to launch a general uprising against the occupying forces across Yugoslavia, in solidarity with the Soviets, and [a] full-scale rebellion broke out in Bosnia on 27 July.[8]
Consider the above chabges
language template again, added "a". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:37, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • This included local uprisings in the Bosanska Krajina, which spread across the NDH, but the KPJ organisation was initially swept along in the popular uprising rather than leading the rebellion.[6]
Should uprising be plural?
Yes, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:37, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • As [a] result, during October and November, three detachments were formed in the Bosanska Krajina from existing units such as the 3rd "Petar Kočić" Battalion, and Drenović was appointed as deputy commander of the 3rd Krajina Detachment responsible for operations in the territory of central Bosnia.
Consider the above changes
I actually just deleted "As result,". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:37, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • This region had strong pro-Chetnik/Serb-chauvinist undercurrents, and of the 34 companies in the detachment, only 13 had KPJ organisations, only 11 had commanders who were members of the KPJ, and only 18 had a political commissar
13+11+18=42?
No, they are not meant to add up,

there was probably some overlap between the categories, for example, having a KPJ organisation and a KPJ commander. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:37, 23 January 2021 (UTC) Alliance with the NDH:[reply]

  • The agreement had eight points, [which] includ[ed]ing requiring that hostilities between the Ustaše and Drenović's Chetniks come to an end, that [the] NDH forces protect Serb villages from the Partisans[,] and that [the] Ustaše units assist the Chetniks in fighting the Partisans.
Consider the above changes
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:19, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • That summer, when order had been established in significant parts of the Italian occupation zone, Drenović and other Chetnik detachment leaders and their principal political spokesmen with Italian Second Army headquarters were recognised by the Italians as auxiliaries and early in the summer the Second Army commander, Generale designato d’armata (acting General) Mario Roatta, allowed for the delivery of arms, munitions, and supplies to the Chetniks.
Consider breaking up this long 66 word sentence
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:19, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following the Italian capitulation in September 1943, Drenović agreed to all the actions [performed] [by] of his Chetniks being performed in close cooperation with local German units, and [he] was informed at the end of the year that Ustaše units would again be stationed in Serb-inhabited areas.
See if you can live wth these suggestd changes?
Reworded. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:19, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Death:

  • As of 2019, a street in Banja Luka [was] is named after Drenović, and his actions and those of his Chetniks are celebrated in the official history of World War I
Consider the above changes
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:19, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Finished - Pendright (talk) 07:44, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

All done I reckon, Pendright. Thanks so much for taking look! See what you think of my responses and edits. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:19, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67: Supporting! I've left you a few comments not affecting my support. Regards! Pendright (talk) 01:39, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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