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Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Broken-Hearted Girl/archive1

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Latest comment: 12 years ago by Two Hearted River in topic Resolved comments by Two Hearted River

Resolved comments by Two Hearted River

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Latest comment: 12 years ago140 comments4 people in discussion
  • "...it was first composed as a ... recording" – I've heard of composing songs, but not recordings
  • What exactly is a "classic(al) R&B recording", anyway?
  • A classic R&B recording is what the final and album version of "Broken-Hearted Girl" is not. It also has a mainstream appeal. Most R&B songs are often changed to an R&B and pop arrangement so that other radios (other than urban ones) play them. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:51, 1 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • How did modifying a chord and adding falsetto vocals stop the song's qualifying as "classic(al) R&B"?
  • Okay, a few things here. Given the similarity of terms, we need to be consistent, so I suggest using only "rhythm and blues" and "contemporary R&B" wherever applicable. If you want to preface the first instance of "rhythm and blues" with "classic", that'll work, but don't follow it with "(R&B)" lest the reader think future instances of the abbreviation refer to the older style. Here's a rewrite I advise for the Writing and production section: "Stargate intended the song to be a classic rhythm and blues track.[2] However, after Babyface modified one chord and recorded falsetto vocals for the demo,[2] [Stargate/the trio?] rewrote the music that surrounded Babyface's vocals and added a four-on-the-floor piano,[2] resulting in a contemporary R&B song.[reference]" I looked at references [6], [7] and [8], as they are currently being used to support the idea that the track is contemporary R&B, but none of them state/imply that. I hope you can find one. Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 16:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • Partly copy-edited according to your preference but I won't modify the paragraph further. The way I have written it does not show a lack of comprehensiveness. You say the demo! How does it become the demo in the very first instance? As we if we have always known the demo?!! And Stargate never said what the song became after making those modification, so I cannot add it here. My guess is that the turned it into a top 40/contemporary R&B song as that's how critics have described the fist disc I Am.... And taking into consideration that he added those falsetto vocals and that piano - like in "Halo". Jivesh1205 (Talk) 11:36, 6 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • Would your objection be satisfied by changing "the demo" to "a demo"? The main problem that remains is that "However" is a loaded term and the reader will expect explanation of how the subsequent events counter the first, or at least confirmation of what he/she would infer (namely, that the song no longer qualifies as rhythm and blues). Also, the way it is now, the clause about recording the demo is just hanging there and feels more extraneous than it should. Stargate doesn't have to say what became of the song; my suggestion attempts to refer to critics for the explanation. (I say "attempts" because, again, references [6], [7] and [8] are not valid, though you use them for the same purpose later in the article.) Lastly, why "classical" instead of "classic", or even better, "traditional"? Classical music is already a genre, so it's a good idea to avoid the term. Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 14:00, 6 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • No, because your suggestion is kind of sloppy. You want to say too many things in one line or two lines. I will try something about that clause. And after all, there was no problem with how it was before, it is just your preference. ~But still, I will try something. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:39, 6 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • This is what Eriksen said, "“Originally this was a classic, full R&B track, that we wrote with Babyface." Then he listed all the changes they did. So, it's clear he wants to say the song is not longer a traditional rhythm and blues one.Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:52, 6 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • What do you think of this: "...added falsetto vocals.[2] The demo version he subsequently recorded inspired the trio to rewrite the chords of the entire backing track and add a four-on-the-floor piano, resulting in a "grand-piano ballad".[8]" Changing from "However" to "but" says the same thing, and if we're going to emphasize the change, we need to explicitly state the result, which reference [8] accomplishes. Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 16:21, 6 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • I don't see how a demo can inspire the trio to rewrite the chords but still I have changed it to what you wanted. Thanks. I hope you won't have any further objection with this. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:32, 6 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • "...released ... as from August 28, 2009" – as from?
  • "Critics commended her acting and described the clip as simple but meaningful." – You provide one instance of each, so this statement is an overstep.
  • Do you expect critics to email each other telling their colleagues that they should all write the same thing so that Wikipedia can write an article in which a certain comment can be verified by 146464657 references? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:51, 1 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • Hope you don't mind if I chime in here, but I think you're missing his point. In any case, most of your responses come off as dismissive and patronizing to me, while I think the reviewer is leaving you these comments in good faith.Auree★★ 16:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • I would advise dropping that clause altogether. For the purpose of the lead, it's okay just to allow the video to exist without trying to summarize a few critics' assessments.
  • "Critics commented that the ballad effectively showcased Knowles' vocal abilities when sung live." – same here
  • "Sophie Muller directed the accompanying black-and-white music video," – drop the comma
  • "...in which Knowles walks on a beach ... to reminisce about her relationship." – Do we know the song is autobiographical? How about "in which the protagonist (played by Knowles)..."?
  • "...added falsetto vocals..." – italics not needed; the word appears in English dictionaries
  • "'Broken-Hearted Girl' appears on the I Am... disc of the double album I Am... Sasha Fierce as a ballad that describes Knowles' insecurities about love[4][5] and depicts the person she is 'underneath all the makeup, underneath the lights and underneath all the exciting star drama'.[6]" – Careful here. Your references speak to the entire disc, not this song specifically, so I would advise a rewrite that says something like "the song fits into the theme of the I Am...disc, which is yada yada yada..."
  • I have decided not to change it because this sentence is in fact good. I cannot modify it to "fits" as neither I nor you are critics to say that. The least we can do is respect how Knowles explained the reasons for which the ballads were on I Am... and the uptempo songs were on Sasha Fierce. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 04:52, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • Here's how you can do that without overstepping: "'Broken-Hearted Girl' appears on the double album I Am... Sasha Fierce as part of the I Am... disc, which features song that describe Knowles' insecurities about love[4][5] and depict the person she is 'underneath all the makeup, underneath the lights and underneath all the exciting star drama'.[6]" This does a better service to your references, two of which don't mention this specific track.Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 16:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • "the music and the emotion in the story is told [sic] so much better" – you can drop the [sic] – no one is going to think that's a transcription error
  • Okay, but I want you to understand why it's not a good idea to use it here. When people misspeak in a way that could change how we understand what they're saying, [sic] is used to convey that and the surrounding sentences can tell us what is correct or what was meant. If people simply make a grammatical mistake, [sic] only draws attention to that fact, further distracting from what they're saying. That's the case here, so no [sic] is needed.Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 16:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • "I really wanted people to hear my voice and hear what I had to say" – this sentence doesn't really add anything and might be referring to another song specifically, anyway
  • It adds something because Knowles its referring to all the ballads on the disc. It is through these ballads (and BHG is one of them) that she wanted her fans to hear her most serious and intense vocal deliveries. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 04:52, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • Okay, then I advise prefacing the sentence with "[On the I Am... disc,] I really wanted..." because the preceding sentence ("Knowles said that she loves to sing ballads...") implies that she's speaking about ballads generally, not theI Am... ballads specifically. This addition will accurately represent the reference.Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 16:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • "'Broken-Hearted Girl' is ... influenced by blues[9]" – That one reviewer said a live performance of the song "had plenty of blues grit" does not mean the song was influenced by blues music
  • It's still a problem because you can't use an assessment of a live vocal performance to describe the original recording. Your earlier, erased assertion here that "Beyonce performs her songs the way they are on her albums" is original research. Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 14:00, 6 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • Similar overstep with "emo-soul music".
  • The statement from the reference in question is this: "Opener 'Yesterday' cribs its twinkly emo-soul texture (and some of its airy vocal melody) from Beyoncé's 'Broken-Hearted Girl'". That doesn't mean BHG itself was influenced by "emo-soul". Find a reference saying this specific song was influenced by emo-soul music or it won't fly.Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 16:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • "Its production and vocal melody are accompanied with strings,[6] a drum machine beat,[11] a guitar,[3]" – Instruments are part of the production
  • "Knowles sings the introduction in a low register, and the power of her voice gradually increases as the song progresses.[6]" – the reference doesn't support the idea of gradually increasing vocal power
  • "Breakup" doesn't need the wikilink
  • What is actually going on in reference [14] (0:00 to 02:24 of the DVD included with the Platinum edition of the album)?
  • Reason I ask is that the time range would put it during the "If I Were a Boy" video if the tracklisting here is accurate. Please help me reconcile the two. Has anyone put this video on YouTube? I think I found the "Behind the Scenes" track there, but that doesn't seem to be what's being referenced.Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 16:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • It looks like you didn't do either of those things. It looks like you were pointed to a YouTube video, used it and referenced it as if it were the supposed legitimate version. In fact, the talk page discussion makes it looks like you weren't able to watch it at all, and the person who directed you to the video described its contents to you in an off-Wikipedia conversation. What's really going on? Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 17:17, 3 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • If you'd like to save this reference, I suggest finding a Wikipedia editor who owns a copy of the video and have him/her update the reference with the correct time and confirm here that the YouTube video is what it purports to be.Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 17:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • You are truly epic. You should be a lawyer. I really asked him but listen, I can ask someone else to verify the time. I will ask on Beyonce's official website. Hopefully I will get a reply today. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 17:55, 3 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • Ha! Maybe I am a lawyer... Look, I just want you to be honest about what you're doing here. I'm not trying to void this reference. If you don't have access to the original video, we'll find a way to verify it. Asking someone outside of Wikipedia isn't the best way because you would still be vouching for something you can't verify. Please check with the Beyonce WikiProject to see whether anyone there can help out and update the reference themselves.Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 18:06, 3 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • "...she sings emotively on the hook..." – That this line is the hook is original research
  • Reference [18] doesn't support what you're saying
  • The reference just says the song is about "the downside of love", which is far more broad than what you have written. I'd say just cut it down to "Despite the desire to have her boyfriend back" and drop reference [18], since you've already covered what's going on in the previous paragraph. Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 16:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply

I'll stop here for the time being... Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 15:17, 1 March 2012 (UTC)Reply

I'm afraid I must oppose as the nominator doesn't seem to understand proper sourcing, among other things.Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 19:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
I don't have any expectations from you. Thanks for your oppose. I did not expect better from you. If I am not asking for too much, stop following everything I do. I have no interest in coming across you every time. Please let me be in peace. Please. I am not a hypocrite. I say things as they are. I don't like to pretend. You know where I am getting to. So please, spare me from your presence. Please. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 19:11, 1 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
Just got an untoward message from Jivesh on my talk page, as well. I think other reviewers will see that my concerns are valid. Jivesh's behavior is unfortunate, because the article doesn't seem too far off and I thought after a few rounds of back-and-forth we'd reach a point where I could support the nomination. Two Hearted River (paddle / fish)19:38, 1 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
Wait, did I just see support or should I take another appointment for an eye check-up? Just remember what you have written here. Let me do everything as you want and I will see if that so-called support from the great THR comes or not. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 04:26, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
Okay, let's see now. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 11:38, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
Not appreciating the sarcasm. I am at a loss to understand how I have wronged you. My interest here is to improve Wikipedia for the benefit of the readers. Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 16:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
I also don't appreciate you but I am doing my best to tolerate you. Thank you for your comments. I will make the necessary changes later. I need a break from Wikipedia, this FAC and you. Sincere thanks to you once again for these comments. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:33, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for picking this up, Wikipedian Penguin. I'll be back with more concerns tomorrow. If you want something to do in the meantime, you can insert non-breaking spaces between the month and day in date constructions (e.g. March 2, 2012– see the code) and archive web references through webcitation.org (I've done the first).Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 20:49, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply

No problem at all. Yes, I can do those for now. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 22:11, 2 March 2012 (UTC)Reply

Next round while I have a few minutes:

  • You reference the Musicnotes.com sheet music as evidence that the recording contains guitar, but the sheet music is only showing how to play the song with a guitar. It doesn't mean the recording contains guitar. You'll also find that Musicnotes.com offers numerous Metallica songs arranged for piano/vocal/guitar, even though those recordings don't contain piano.
  • I don't care about Metallica and company. Anyway, you are wrong here. The sheet says: "The Arrangement Details Tab gives you detailed information about this particular arrangement of Broken-Hearted Girl". Then click on song details, it will say that it is the version from I Am... Sasha Fierce. As far as I know, Beyonce does not record different albums by the same name. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 04:54, 7 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • You will find the same with "Fade to Black" by Metallica, which contains no piano in the recording from Ride the Lightning. Sheet music from Musicnotes.com proves nothing about what instruments the recording contains. It doesn't even claim to, it's just a transcription for (usually) piano/vocal/guitar. Note that the sheet music contains guitar chord fingerings during the opening lines of BHG, even though it's quite obvious the only accompaniment in the recording is a piano. Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 05:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • And you left out a key clause, so I'll provide the entire sentence: "The Arrangement Details Tab gives you detailed information about this particular arrangement of Broken-Hearted Girl - not necessarily the song." So "this particular arrangement" means the one Musicnotes.com came up with – the one for piano/vocal/guitar – and not necessarily the one on the album. Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 05:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • The audio sample caption needs references for most of the adjectives.
  • "...it was the fifth song to be serviced outside the US." – Can you think of a better verb than "serviced" here and in subsequent instances? It sounds like radio industry lingo.
  • If you run Google searches for "serviced to radio" and "serviced to stores" (or "record stores", etc.), you'll see that "serviced" is really only used for radio releases, not commercial releases. (And then compare the results for "serviced to radio" to those for "released to radio" and you'll see that "released" is many times more commonly used.) Now please change the other two instances of "serviced". Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 05:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • "It is a bubblegum dance and disco remix,[27] withinstrumentation based on guitars, horns, synthesizers, whips, and snare drums.[27][28]"

Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 22:46, 6 March 2012 (UTC)Reply

Next round:

  • "'Broken-Hearted Girl' received a favorable response from most music critics, who commented on the vocal performance, lyrics, and arrangement." – Yes, those are the aspects we would expect critics to scrutinize.
  • Here's how I see them:
Positive: Riva, Lustig, Nissim, Spence D.
Mixed/neither: Brew-Hammond, McGuire, Sterdan, Westhoff
Negative: EDP, Matos, Suarez
If "favorable" describes a clear majority of the reviews you've seen, then I guess you've seen some that you didn't include here; feel free to add a few more. Otherwise I think the reviews are "mixed". Two Hearted River (paddle/ fish) 13:17, 10 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • "Elysa Gardner of USA Today listed Broken-Hearted Girl" as one of the songs from I Am... Sasha Fierce to 'consider' hearing." – Eh, this is meaningless without her reasoning.
  • No, it's not. This is critical reception. Most magazines do this. They include a song for worth hearing/standout/a must and one that is bad according to them. And you have no right to say what an established critic said is meaningless.Jivesh1205 (Talk) 05:13, 9 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • That's fine for magazines, but Wikipedia is not a magazine. The sentence doesn't provide a meaningful frame of reference because I don't know what Gardner thinks of the album on the whole. If she thinks the album is horrible, it's not exactly a ringing endorsement to say BHG is a song to "consider" listening to. But if she thinks it's the album of the decade, that's a different story. What would you have the reader take away from this sentence? Two Hearted River (paddle/ fish) 18:12, 9 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • "Darryl Sterdan of Jam! called it a "grand-piano ballad" that may stand out from pop songs on a regular studio album." – I didn't understand why until I read the original sentence. Please reword to explain fully.
  • "...described the song as a 'romantic-comedy soundtrack fare'..."
  • Readers less familiar with Celine Dijon and Aretha Franklin would find it helpful if you inserted "pop" and "soul", respectively, before their names.
  • Who is Dijon? Anyway, done. But frankly, I really can't see why we need to list the singers' genres here. I have wiki-linked their names and that should have been more than enough as long as "Broken-Hearted Girl" is not part of their discography. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 05:13, 9 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • "...noted that it is ballad..." – missing word
  • "...Knowles' own 2008 single..."
  • "...Dion would be proud of their 'insipid [and] sentimental' balladry." – their?
  • "...one that shows Knowles' growth and progress as a songwriter." – "Progress" doesn't say anything that "growth" didn't already.
  • "A writer of Rolling Stone wrote that Knowles 'rescues "Broken-Hearted Girl" from sentimental schlock'." – This sentence made me ask myself, "How?" A look at the original didn't provide any answers, so I suggest dropping this sentence.
  • Sorry but I won't. This is critical reception not a lawyer fighting a case in court where he has to provide all the explanations. You cannot expect critic to evaluate everything. I hope you do realize that sometimes you ask for too much.Jivesh1205 (Talk) 05:13, 9 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • We don't include critics' comments just because they exist, they have to tell us something insightful (this follows fromWP:EDITDISC). I can think of a few ways Knowles might "rescue" the song and a few ways the song might qualify as "sentimental schlock", but who knows whether any combination matches the RS writer's? He leaves us guessing – again, fine for a magazine, not so much for Wikipedia. Two Hearted River (paddle /fish) 18:12, 9 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • Initially, I didn't see a reason for the paragraph break, but it looks as if the second paragraph deals with specific aspects of the recording, while the first contains more general comments. Is that intentional? If so, the second paragraph could use an introductory sentence preparing the reader for its contents. (Here's an example of how I've done it.)
  • It was intentional and a paragraph break is always welcome. Digesting 18 lines in a row discourages viewers to read what has been written. With a paragraph break, it seems more believable. And thanks for your example. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 05:13, 9 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • "Mayer Nissim of Digital Spy awarded "Broken-Hearted Girl" three stars out of five..." – The star rating doesn't provide any insight.
  • "...prevent it from being..." -> "...prevent the song from being..."
  • "...noting that the hook line 'rings false'." – Just use the actual lyric; we haven't been able to establish through a reliable source that the line in questions is the hook.


Next round:

  • You use the phrase "attained/reached a high point" a few times. The second one is sensible because you want to avoid repeating "peaked", but I recommend switching the other two to "peaked" simply because it's snappier and more commonly used.
  • "...it continuously descended the UK Singles Chart, spending twelve consecutive weeks, and last charting on November 19..."– If I'm understanding what is meant here, the sentence could be tightened to "...it spent twelve weeks descending the UK Singles Chart, last appearing on November 19..."
  • "...on which it was last seen on December 3, 2009." – Try "last appeared" instead of "was last seen".
  • "The ballad made its way to number thirty-seven..." – I suggest "The ballad rose to number..." or "The ballad rose to a peak of number..."
  • "It attained the top twenty positions..." – Drop "the", else it could be interpreted as the song charted at each of the top twenty positions.
  • "...respectively peaking at number fifteen and fourteen on the charts."
  • The next sentence has a semicolon, but it would flow better if it were a period and the next sentence started, "On the Swiss Singles Chart..."
  • " The ballad made its way in the top ten of the Belgian Tip Charts." – "To" instead of "in".
  • "...thirty-seventh-best-selling..." – Second hyphen unwarranted.


Next round:

  • Reference [58] points to vevo.com but one of the entries in its template says YouTube
  • "It is on the remix and video album..." – Seems a bit awkward to start with "It is on...", how about combining that sentence and the next to say, "It was released on the remix and video album ... on [date] and separately through iTunes on [date]."
  • Reference [21] doesn't support the idea it's backing in two of its three uses.
  • "...as if the words are too painful to sing." – Original research
    • Removed.
  • "She later removes an article of clothing, tossing it at the camera." – Is there something the reader should infer from this?
  • "During the climax..." – The assertion that this point of the song is the climax is original research.
  • "...she drives off, smiling." – Drop the comma.
  • "...suffers 'from panda eyes'..." – Even though "from" is the word that precedes "panda eyes" in the source, you can move it outside the quote here. Alternatively, you could say "'[suffers] from panda eyes'".
  • Actually, just put the rest of the sentence in quotes, since it may be a stretch to equate a "good cry" with crying "for quite a long time".
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