Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/U.S. Route 131/archive1

Rschen7754

Comments (will be done in parts)

• Lead - "The state started near Three Rivers and" ... started what?
• 1.2 - "The one of the lowest AADT counts for Michigan " - no The at the beginning.
• 2nd paragraph - two consecutive sentences starting with M-60
• 1.3 - The southern end of Grand Rapids continues with residential areas along US 131 until Burton Street, where a large rail yard abuts the trunkline on the east the freeway turns northeasterly on its approach to downtown - bad sentence structure.
• and immediate turns back north - immediately?
• its most traffic - rephrase
• (ending with section 1.3 for now)
• 1.4 - On the northeast side of the latter community, US 131 has the lowest freeway traffic counts - there's a few ways this could be taken. Please clarify.
• The highway passes through rural Charlevoix County. - choppy
• 1.5 - is car pool one word?
• (all of RD done)
• Public Act 131 of 1931 allowed the MSHD to take control over the city streets that carried state highways through cities in the state.[27] The department took control and fixed the routing of US 131 through the city of Grand Rapids after the act's passage. - use a phrase besides "take/took control" the second time.
• US 131 was shifted to it - the new side of the triangle?
• US 131 no longer turned east along Boardman Road between South Boardman and Lodi but instead the highway ran directly to the northeast - not a great construction, even with a comma.
• Several copyedits performed.
• (all of history done)
• Jct list - the hatnote shouldn't be in italics AFAIK.
• Not part of the criteria, but the picture around here looks a bit dark.
• Future - 3rd sentence - "While" sets the first part of the sentence up for contrast... but there is no contrast.
• Final Environmental impact statement - capitalization looks off.
• Business owners look toward the 3,000 cars and trucks that pass through downtown Constantine each day for customers, ... I assume favorably? Also, I'm not seeing where the division really is in opinion.

--Rschen7754 19:56, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

First batck addressed. I'll away your next batch of comments at your next study break. Imzadi 1979 → 21:05, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Second batch addressed. Not sure on carpool vs. car pool, but the map uses the compound, so I switched. Imzadi 1979 → 18:08, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Third batch done. I converted the hatnote into an explanatory footnote. That renders the discussion over italics vs. roman moot. Imzadi 1979 → 03:58, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

The fourth and final batch is done. I'll see about playing with that picture in Photoshop, but that's about the coloration of the overpasses on that section of the freeway, so I'll be limited as to what can be done. I think I tweaked that sentence to enhance the contrast. As well, the section about the business owners (they'll lose traffic when the cars are diverted out of town) versus the commuters has been edited. Please let me know if further clarification is needed. Imzadi 1979 → 08:07, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Dank

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. I made the following changes (unless I'm asking a question): - Dank (push to talk)

• "designated by" can be confused with "named"; I reworded.
• "but it did not extend south into Indiana at the time, ending instead at the state line.": Since we're talking about less than a mile, and since you already say the highway was in Michigan, this clarification didn't seem important enough for the lead to me.
• "for any average day of the year": "average day" is an informal figure of speech; there's not really any such thing as an average day, we're talking about the daily traffic averaged over a year.
  • Actually, that's not quite right either. The surveys will measure traffic at various times of the year, and then calculate what it would be for a hypothetical average day. Most highways are not continuously monitored to get a true average. In fact, on most highways, these surveys are literally only for a few days once a year, but are statistically computed to that hypothetical. Imzadi 1979 → 23:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
    • Okay, that makes more sense to me ... then I'm also going to change "a calculation of the daily number of vehicles on a segment of roadway averaged over a year" to "a statistical calculation of the average daily number of vehicles on a segment of roadway", if that works for you. - Dank (push to talk) 23:16, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
• "couple miles": "couple of miles" per Chicago 5.220.
• "accessible from the southbound direction of US 131": You're the expert, but this sounds a little off to me; I don't think of a "direction" as something you can pave.
• "the "mammoth" interchange": Is the interchange nicknamed "mammoth"?
  • No, the Press article calls it "mammoth". That interchange is physically the largest and most complicated on this side of the state, to the point that I feel that some adjective is warranted, and I repeated the one in use by the source. Imzadi 1979 → 23:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
    • Okay, see if you like what I did. - Dank (push to talk) 00:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
• "... the two carriageways that form the freeway cross each other. The northbound carriageway crosses over the southbound lanes, meaning that traffic through this stretch briefly drives on the left. On the other side of this interchange the northbound carriageway crosses back under the southbound lanes, restoring the standard driving configuration.":"... the northbound carriageway crosses over then back under the southbound lanes, so that traffic through this stretch briefly drives on the left." See WP:Checklist#conciseness. - Dank (push to talk) 00:30, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
• "... the Shoe Tree. A local landmark since shortly after the turn of the 21st century the origins of the artwork are unknown, but the owners of the property call it "the best landmark in Northern Michigan"." What gives it historical value? Do you have any references other than a brief mention in the Traverse City Record-Eagle?
  • I am a former resident of the area, and while my personal observations can't be used as a source, that tree is well known and much discussed by members of the community. There are aboute 2,500 hits on Google for that specific shoe tree, most of which don't satisfy WP:RS. It is mentioned in a travel book, Weird Michigan: Your Travel Guide to Michigan's Local Legends and Best Kept Secrets and even a short film. It was covered by WLUC-TV, a station based in the Central Upper Peninsula, in a video that's no longer available on their website. There is also an article about it from the Petoskey News-Review on a site that also aggregates articles from the Gaylord Herald Times and the Charlevoix Courier. Imzadi 1979 → 23:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
    • As long as it meets your wikiproject's standards for inclusion, I have no objection, but the text is problematic. I think it was in the source that I read that motorists stop from time to time to throw their shoes into the tree; you're giving the impression that the end result is "artwork". And we shouldn't be borrowing the term "landmark" from the owners of the property. - Dank (push to talk) 00:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
• "This section of roadway is where MDOT measured the lowest traffic counts of all on US 131. In 2009, there were 5,114 cars and 448 trucks which traveled the road daily.": "Here, MDOT has measured the lowest average daily traffic counts of all on US 131: 5,114 cars and 448 trucks 2009." When one sentence consists of data that proves or explains another sentence, it's usually best to combine the sentences.
• "The northern terminus of US 131 is at the intersection of Spring Street and Charlevoix Avenue where US 31 turns off Charlevoix Avenue and follows Spring Street north of US 131.": "At the northern terminus of US 131, US 31 turns off Charlevoix Avenue and follows Spring Street to the north."
• "There are eight rest areas along US 131 that provide locations for motorists to pull off the highway. These areas provide bathroom facilities, dog runs, picnic areas and usually vending machines.": "Eight of these are along US 131, providing bathroom facilities, dog runs, picnic areas and usually vending machines."
• "Those along the freeway section serve only one direction of traffic, while the others are accessible from both directions of the highway. The rest areas near Kalamazoo, Rockford, Big Rapids and Tustin serve southbound traffic while those near Morley and Cadillac serve the northbound side of the freeway. The two near Manton and Fife Lake are accessible from both directions.": I deleted the first sentence, with no loss of information.
• "A ninth rest area used to exist near Cutlerville on the northbound side of US 131,[20] but this location was demolished on January 22, 2001, to make way for the interchange with M-6." Okay, some want to know where the rest areas are, and some are interested in historical sites. Does anyone want to know where the rest areas were 10 years ago?
  • It's no less of an important historical detail than some of the routing changes. Additionally, if you do a quick tally, there's an imbalance in the numbers of northbound vs. southbound rest areas. There are two northbound, four southbound and two accessible from both directions on the non-freeway section. The removal of that rest area is part of that imbalance. Rest areas on the state's freeways tend to be paired up so that there is one in each direction in an area. Personal anecdotes, but still how it's normally done. Imzadi 1979 → 23:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
    • I hadn't thought of that. - Dank (push to talk) 00:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
• "Larry Brown ... pleaded no contest on a sexual assault charge, which prompted MDOT to remove his name from the rest area when notified of his conviction." Per the logic of WP:BLP1E, I'd prefer to leave this out. Is he known for anything other than sexual assault and lasting long enough at MDOT to get his name on a rest area? - Dank (push to talk) 03:20, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
  • My logic in including that is to add something more than the dry statistics and boring "X road segment at Y location was realigned in Z year" changes to the road. Here we have a human story about a mundane aspect of a pedestrian topic. The fact remains that the only press source that I've ever found that details the numbers or types of rest areas, let alone how the names are assigned is an article about Mr. Brown. The title of that article directly references this situation, and I think leaving that title in the reference list without addressing the subject matter just invites questions. Imzadi 1979 → 23:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
    • I'll reply below. - Dank (push to talk) 00:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
• "the 115,000 vehicles that used the stretch of road a day": "the roughly 115,000 vehicles per day that used the stretch of road". - Dank (push to talk) 03:41, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
• Done; Here's the diff of my work. I can support per FAC disclaimer if you have a chance to respond to my questions. - Dank (push to talk) 03:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the review and the copy edits. Please let me know if I've answered your questions. Imzadi 1979 → 23:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
• Support per FAC disclaimer. I see your dilemma, and I can support on prose only, but I'm hoping other reviewers will weigh in on the potential WP:BLP issue here. I see nothing to indicate this guy is a public figure or notable. - Dank (push to talk) 00:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Hurricanehink

• In the route description, three consecutive paragraphs start with "US 131". Can't you find a more original way of starting off three different paragraphs?
  • Done. Imzadi 1979 → 19:29, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
• In "Southwest Michigan", you use "the highway" several times when referring to the southernmost portion of the state, but according to Google maps it's only a regular road (not a highway). At least, I'm confused what means expressway/highway/freeway/whatnot.
  • All of US 131 in Michigan is a "state trunkline highway" by virtue of its inclusion in the "state trunkline highway system" and its maintenance by MDOT. Between the Three Rivers area and Schoolcraft, it is a divided highway that is almost up to expressway standards (divided highway with limited access from driveways, limited cross road access, possibly grade separation at the junctions) and north of Schoolcraft to Manton, it is a full freeway (divided highway with no driveways, no cross roads, access only at grade separated junctions/interchanges). Imzadi 1979 → 19:29, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
• What are "light industrial properties"?
  • Linked that to Light industry. Imzadi 1979 → 19:29, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
• Could you fix these incorrect facts? They both claim to be the lowest traffic counts, but I'm confused if there is something I'm missing.
  • "The lowest freeway traffic counts along US 131, 7,455 cars and 709 trucks in 2009, are on the northeast side of Manton"
  • "Here, MDOT has calculated the lowest average daily traffic counts of all on US 131: 5,114 cars and 448 trucks in 2009"
    • Both sets of numbers are accurate, being directly copied and pasted from the report generated by the Traffic Monitoring Information System application on MDOT's website. The lowest traffic count along the freeway section of US 131 in Michigan is near Manton; The lowest traffic counts (freeway or non-freeway) are at Elmira. Freeways typically have higher traffic counts because they are built to the higher standard required to handle additional traffic. Imzadi 1979 → 19:29, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
• "MDOT operates 67 rest areas and 14 welcome centers in the state, all named in honor of retired department employees" - why do you mention that? It's not related to US 131.
  • You might want to say when Larry Brown got his name removed from the one rest area
    • It's background information to introduce the concept that 1) these rest areas are not something unique to this specific highway and 2) that they have names and how they are named. I do state when his name was removed: "in early 2011". The news article did not specify a date, rather "a few weeks ago" when it was published on January 26, 2011. Imzadi 1979 → 19:29, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
• "Another expressway section was opened between Mancelona and the M-32 junction west of Elmira in late 1956 or early 1957." - that's sort of a weak way to start a section
  • Moved it to the previous paragraph. Imzadi 1979 → 19:29, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
• Why isn't I-296 merged with this article, if they share the same route and history, and 296 is no longer signed?
  • I-296 goes into further detail over that freeway section's planning (it was planned separately from the US 131 freeway conversions to its north and south, etc) and it is felt that merging that additional detail here would have it lost among the shuffle for readers looking for I-296 information. Additionally, Google has been known to "resurrect" the designation on its mapping service, and construction detour signs, using the internal MDOT designations from the contracts, have used the I-296 designation to detour drivers around a work site. Imzadi 1979 → 19:29, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:46, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick responses, most of that works. The only thing I'm still a little iffy on is the highway/freeway/expressway thing, which AFIAK didn't have significant differences (and I do know a fair bit about roads to begin with). That said, it shouldn't hinder the article too much, so I'll be happy to support it. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:54, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Tony1

• Comments. Support on 1a—improvements made. Tony (talk) 09:58, 3 May 2011 (UTC) The prose needs a careful sifting through by an independent editor. Otherwise, it's a creditable piece of work.

1. "U.S. Highway 131 (US 131) is a north–south United States Highway; all but 0.67 miles (1.08 km) of its 266.82 miles (429.41 km) are within the U.S. state of Michigan." I'd remove the last of the three references to the country in five seconds of reading. And what about "all but 0.67 miles of its 266.82 miles (1.08 of 429.41 km) are within ..."?
2. Logic ... I'm being stupidly picky: "It forms an important corridor along the western side of the Lower Peninsula of Michigan, running through rural farm and forest lands as well as urban cityscapes." Now is it important because it runs through ...."? Is important a value-judgement, or as I'm suspecting is it related to other things, no doubt covered where such importance can be explained?
3. "The oldest, the Mackinaw Trail, originated from an Indian trail in the area while other names honored politicians." Could these verbs be in the present tense?
4. The failed attempt at naming: year? Even in the lead.
5. US versus "U.S. state" at the top (which you'll probably remove anyway). Chicago MoS announced its change last year, recommending no dots, and is much preferred by many English-speakers, Americans and non-Americans. But I guess we're stuck with the U dot S dot highways thing for institutional titular reasons.
6. Given the use of commas in the surrounding text, perhaps simpler "Starting in the 1950s, further changes were made to convert segments of the road to a full freeway.", from the current "Further changes were made, starting in the 1950s, to convert segments of the road to a full freeway."?
7. Is "back" necessary? "Plans to further extend the freeway have either been cancelled or placed back under study."
8. "Upgrades on the north end through Kalkaska ceased to be considered in 2000." So they were considered in every year but 2000? Something more explanatory would be good.
9. "The 2007 survey reported average daily traffic of 7,949 cars and 2,068 trucks."—Have you mentioned this survey already?
10. MOSNUM says to keep the decimal places consistent if possible: "3.0–3.5 miles (4.8–5.6 km)"

And further down, at random:

• "Construction to complete these sections north of Grand Rapids had been delayed in 1967." Can't it be "The completion of these"?
• "By 1977, the state postponed"—had?
• Modern usage, all over, is to put "However," and other angle words such as "Therefore," at the start of a sentence: "The freeway remains listed as a part of the Interstate Highway System as I-296, however."

etc. Tony (talk) 06:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• Give me 24 or 48 hours and I'll go through the article sentence-by-sentence and see what I can do. Juliancolton (talk) 19:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• Update: Tomorrow for sure, apologies for the delay. Juliancolton (talk) 02:35, 28 April 2011 (UTC)