Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Winter War/archive1

Moved from main page, alt text

• • It has several phrases that cannot be verified by a non-expert who is looking only at the images, and needs to be removed or moved to the caption (see WP:ALT#Verifiability), or is a duplicate of the caption and can be removed (see WP:ALT#Repetition). These phrases include "in November 1939", "Commander Meretskov", "Soviet" (multiple times), "to Finland", "Finnish" in "Group of Finnish soldier" (that should be "soldiers", by the way) and in "Finnish soldiers", "Soviet" in "A Soviet khaki tank", "History Department of the United states Military Academy", "Vyborg Castle". It is OK to say "Soviet" and "Finnish" in maps, where the map legend says who's who, but it's not OK to say it for photos of soldiers, where a non-expert can't tell the difference.
  • There are problems of grammar in "The group of men wearing hats to the left, the woman to the right, and the crowd behind." Also, that alt text should focus more on the three men, who are clearly the focus of the picture.
  • There is typically no need for phrases such as "on the left", "on the right", "in the middle", etc., unless these phrases are crucial to the understanding of the image. Done. Peltimikko (talk) 22:09, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
  • There are also problems of grammar in "A cannon wearing white blanket on the snow and two men are posing side of it." For alt text like this, it's shorter and simpler to use present tense, e.g., "... cannon wears ... two men pose ...".
  • More grammar problems with "Frozen body at the front and", "men with snowsuits are point", "The picture is taking from ground, distant below.", "White, frozen sea where dock at the front", "large of part Karelia", and "many island of". Please review the alt text with the same care you take with normal text.
  • In a couple of places, tanks are described as "khaki" but this color cannot be verified from a monochrome photograph. Please remove the "khaki". Also, what is a "white-wear tank"?
  • Misspelling: "wehicles". You might want to spell-check all the article (including alt text). Done. Peltimikko (talk) 22:09, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Eubulides (talk) 17:57, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I improved ALTs as much as I could. Unfortunately, I am not very good at english grammar, so extra hands are appreciated. Peltimikko (talk) 20:56, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I can try my luck with the grammar if you want me to.--Coldplay Expert 21:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Could you please do that? I've struck the problems that were fixed, but many remain, and many more were introduced since I last reviewed the alt text. Some of the new problems are relatively subtle, e.g., "A group of three men wearing hats in the middle" sounds like the men are wearing hats in their middles. Some are more obvious, e.g., "An officer on the left showing map on the table", with a missing "a" before "map". Generally speaking, by the way, it's better to use present tense, e.g., "A group of three men wears hats" and "An officer shows a map". Eubulides (talk) 00:19, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Sure I will see what I can do.--Coldplay Expert 22:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Moved from main page, images

• • File:Paasikivi october 1939 kajander hakkila.jpg's source merely redirects to the main page of the site.
    • The article in the webpage has been removed (do not know the reason, maybe some sort of renewal). However, the event is well known and Mr. Paasikivi in the picture died 1956 and Mr. Kajander in 1943.
      • Another source that you have that has the book would be fine too. NW (Talk) 04:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
      • Can you please respond to this one? I think you might have missed it. Thanks, NW (Talk) 20:58, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
        • I noticed. Basically, the article and the picture is available in Google-cache. However, I try to find a book or replace the picture. Peltimikko (talk) 09:38, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
          • Replaced File:Moscow negotiations paaskivi yrjokoskinen nykopp paasonen 1939.png. Peltimikko (talk) 09:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
  • File:Meretskov Kirill.jpg needs an author to verify that it indeed can meet the criteria of PD-Russia.
    • Cannot verify, since I do not possess the book "Itsenäisyyden puolustajat" (I remember seeing it also in "Talvisodan taisteluja"). Uniforms seems to point in time, but not sure. Peltimikko (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
      • Another source that you have that has the book would be fine too. NW (Talk) 04:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
        • Removed. Peltimikko (talk) 07:06, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
  • File:Talvisota Viipuri March 13 1940.PNG needs an updated PD tag.
    • March 1940, so have to wait four months till PD-Russia-2008. Suggestions? Peltimikko (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
      • Note that it must also be public domain in the United States (via either normal methods or commons:Template:PD-US-1996). If it doesn't meet US copyright law, it has to be deleted. NW (Talk) 01:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
        • Removed. Peltimikko (talk) 07:06, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
  • File:Talvisota 8th Army 1939.PNG needs an updated PD tag.
    • Updated PD-Russia-2008; three weeks.Peltimikko (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
      • Note that it must also be public domain in the United States (via either normal methods or commons:Template:PD-US-1996). If it doesn't meet US copyright law, it has to be deleted. NW (Talk) 01:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
        • Removed. Peltimikko (talk) 07:06, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
  • File:Finn ski troops.jpg needs something to indicate why it would be in the Public Domain in the United States. Also, this may just be my foolishness, but I cannot figure out how to access the source, even with the instructions provided. Do you think you could explain a bit more?
    • There is a mention "Official Finnish photograph", so it should be PD-Finland50. Suggestions? Peltimikko (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
      • Marking it with {{PD-Finland50}} and {{PD-US-1996}} should be good.
        • Marked. Peltimikko (talk) 07:10, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
  • File:Bt5 10.jpg needs a better source and an author.
    • Have not seen the picture. Maybe four months and PD-Russia-2008? Peltimikko (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
      • Note that it must also be public domain in the United States (via either normal methods or commons:Template:PD-US-1996). If it doesn't meet US copyright law, it has to be deleted. NW (Talk) 01:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
        • Removed. Peltimikko (talk) 07:06, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
  • [[:File:Winter War OT-130 flamethrower.png]] needs an author or an explanation as to why it is in the Public Domain
    • 02-1940, so three months till PD-Russia-2008. Peltimikko (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
      • Note that it must also be public domain in the United States (via either normal methods or commons:Template:PD-US-1996). If it doesn't meet US copyright law, it has to be deleted. NW (Talk) 01:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
        • Removed. Peltimikko (talk) 07:06, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
  • File:Raate road.jpg needs a hyperlinked source or a book reference.
    • Found the right book. Updated. Peltimikko (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
• I look forward to striking this oppose as soon as all the image issues are fixed. NW (Talk) 21:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I apologize my rough answers. I am willing to replace selected pictures by your request. Peltimikko (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Resolved 1a, 1c, 2c

Originally from Fifelfoo (talk), moved to clear main page, anything not struck has been checked and it is resolved. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:21, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

• 1. 1a - remaining language stuff needs a once more over. Fifelfoo (talk) 07:59, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
     1. We need to recruit a volunteer English First Language person to smooth some of the grammar, and weirder English tenses in writing. Done (or?). (Thanks Illythr!) Peltimikko (talk) 21:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

        Because of Finnish mates, I'm doing a second-look-over myself. Happy with the strike. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

     2. fn9 needs to use English format percentages 22.6 not European 22,6 Done. Peltimikko (talk) 06:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
     3. New 1a decline reason: Talk:Winter War#For decision: US English, UK English, Australian English, Indian English... needs to be resolved and implemented. I don't particularly care which version of English is used, but one needs to be used consistently. ise count is 3, ize count is 4. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
  2. 1c - remaining points moving towards resolution. Fifelfoo (talk) 07:59, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
     1. Original Research at fn8. Done. (Thanks Illythr!) Peltimikko (talk) 07:10, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
     2. fn11 lacks page references, as does fn12. Done. Peltimikko (talk) 18:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
     3. Not convinced of the quality of scholarship from the 1950s in the last two paragraphs of the Section "Aftermath - Finnish views". More recent scholarship available?... aaah... this is meant to be a historiography / reception section. Needs a rewrite to be less "actions during the war" as content to "debate within Finland on the war" Response: Some grammar done. I have not figured out how to answer this. There is much more detailed article Aftermath of the Winter War. Peltimikko (talk) 21:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
     4. Speaking of which, convince me you've searched for post 1991 Russian scholarship of high quality (I can't transliterate fn21 rapidly enough myself) Response: I moved references inside a note. A purpose is to demonstrate, that a word "Winter War" (as well as Soviet–Finnish War 1939–1940) is also widely used in Russian histography. Peltimikko (talk) 21:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
     5. You've got a "[verification needed]" needed tag Additional sources added. Peltimikko (talk) 18:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
  3. 2c Consistency Fifelfoo (talk) 07:59, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
     1. Inconsistent attribution of language sources published in in notes. Compare fn141 Author Title (in Finnish). fn21 (Russian) Author Title, and fn93 [no attribution of lanugage supplied]. Corrected Russian fn21 and changed fn141, fn142 and fn143. Peltimikko (talk) 06:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
     2. Full stops or not at the end of notes. Full stops. Done. Peltimikko (talk) 06:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
     3. If you're using full citations in the format Author (YYYY). Title. [p./pp.] nnn. (ie fn4), your short cites should read Author (YYYY). [p./pp.] nnn. Currently your short cites read Author YYYY, [p./pp.] nnn [note the lack of full stop]. Done. Peltimikko (talk) 18:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
     4. fn8, not an archival cite. Please supply translations (pref: Authorative Organisational Translations) for the Archive's repository, location, the originating institution, etc. Russian Government ? Archive, File 37977. Op1 ? Document 595? Leaves 57-59?. Citing archival sources for manpower totals is original research. Solved (another sources). Peltimikko (talk) 07:10, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
     5. Multiple author inconsistency between Bibliography and Notes. Pick one of Author and Author (example fn47) or Author; Author (bibliography, fn80). Author; Author Peltimikko (talk) 18:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
     6. fn146 spelling of Programme / Program Note: (sic!). Peltimikko (talk) 06:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
  4. Non decline related comments:
     1. 1b: Home front? Was the war too short?
     2. I would really appreciate seeing fn21 having Latin lettering as well. It would allow me a surface chance of checking fn21's 1c status.
     3. Relevant in any way? RR Reese "Lessons of the Winter War: A Study in the Military Effectiveness of the Red Army, 1939-1940" The Journal of Military History, 2008.
     4. Relevant in any way? Varpu Lindström "Propaganda and identity construction: media representation of Finnish and Finnish-Canadian women during the Winter War of 1939-40" in Sisters or Strangers?: Immigrant, Ethnic, and Racialized Women in Canadian History Marlene Epp (Editor), Franca Iacovetta (Editor), Frances Swyripa (Editor) University of Toronto Press: 2004. ISBN10 0802086098 (probably not, but this demonstrates how little has escaped your 1c research).
  5. Support related comments:
     1. 1c looks great. Sources not of Highest Quality are used sparingly, and to verify obvious, simple, uncontestable elements. With the exception of my complaint about using archival sources to generate a man count as OR, this is an excellent 1c work.
     2. This has been one of the easiest long articles to check 1c and 2c on as the author has already excellent citation, footnoting and bibliography habits. Big congrats on that. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

• Are there Wikipedia documents concerning the citation matter (multiple authors in a book)? Currently the template "cite book" is used, and it does not give citations as requested. Peltimikko (talk) 06:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

  Template:cite book has a number of bugs. Looking at the article. Your shortcites are manual: [[#JowettSnodgrass2006|Jowett and Snodgrass 2006]], pp. 10–11 => [[#JowettSnodgrass2006|Jowett; Snodgrass (2006)]]. pp. 10-11.. The choice of citation style is up to you. If you want to keep using cite book for your bibliography, then change your manner of short citation in the footnotes to match it (like I just recommended and exampled :). Feature Article reviewers can only demand consistency in citation style. Its up to you to determine how to get there. I can give advice about how if you've chosen a way forward. Fifelfoo (talk) 06:50, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

  Fixed citations. Hopefully the citation style passes the review. Peltimikko (talk) 18:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

• Well you got the citations down but do you still need help with the grammar. Engilsh is my first language.--Coldplay Expert 23:40, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Extra hands are always needed. Would you? Peltimikko (talk) 07:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Sure I was already an extra hand for this article I uploaded a map of Finland that showed the soviet offensives in the winter of 39-40. In the next few days Ill read the whole article and see what I need to fix. At first glance however you seem to have done a good job at spelling as well as the grammar. Even if English isn't your first language. Good job!--Coldplay Expert 21:30, 4 November 2009 (UTC)