Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Russia-related articles

Comments by Ymblanter

1. It would be probably good to add explicitly that we apply WP:RUS even to the names of clearly foreign origin, such as Finnish (Suoyarvi) and German (Marks).--Ymblanter (talk) 15:48, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

   We could, but I think it's redundant. There are no such places in Russia for which there is an "established name in English" on par with, say, Saint Petersburg or Moscow (at least not one where one has successfully been argued), and what those places are called in other languages is irrelevant on the English Wikipedia, so that path leads back to WP:RUS.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); December 13, 2012; 16:07 (UTC)

   Yeah, but the question still surfaces out on a regular basis, so I think it would be better written down somewhere.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:09, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

2. Work settlements are I believe identical to urban-type settlements (and are not towns)--Ymblanter (talk) 15:48, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

   Work settlements are a subcategory of urban-type settlements (in most federal subjects, anyway). Other subcategories include suburban settlements (дачные посёлки) and resort settlements (курортные посёлки). How about listing all three in parentheses after "urban-type settlements"?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); December 13, 2012; 16:07 (UTC)

   Good, will do it now.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:09, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

3. This would be a good place to outline the difference between municipal and administrative divisions and to explain that we have the priorities geographical -> administrative -> municipal, in contrast, for example, to Russian Wikipedia.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:48, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

   Good point.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); December 13, 2012; 16:07 (UTC)

4. To explain the best practice for redirects?--Ymblanter (talk) 15:49, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

   Is there one?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); December 13, 2012; 16:07 (UTC)

   Well, if you do not know then probably nobody knows.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:09, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

   :) I create tons of redirects, but it's mostly various transliteration variants, and, numerous as they are, I don't claim I'm covering them all. Maybe we could add something along the lines of "creating redirects from alternate romanization variants is encouraged"?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); December 13, 2012; 16:12 (UTC)

   This is fine, but I though about smth like (just a random example) Sosnovsky is a redirect to a district, and for a rural locality we need a SET index.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

   I see. But isn't this already covered by general guidelines? If there is only one thing which can be referred to as "Sosnovsky" (also just a random example), it's either put under "Sosnovsky" or is redirected to a title some other guidelines recommend (such as "Sosnovsky District"). I don't believe there is anything Russia-specific in this approach.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); December 13, 2012; 16:29 (UTC)

5. The naming conventions - what is the most common name, and why Podporozhye is a SET index, and the town is Podporozhye, Leningrad Oblast (and when DAB is appropriate).--Ymblanter (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

   Article titles are covered by the existing WP:NC:CITY#Russia guideline (to which I provided a link). Set indices are created when there is more than one place (in Russia) by that name. That set is either titled using that shared name (such as "Podporozhye") or, when there are places outside of Russia by that name or some other entities which can be referred to using that name, a link to a set is placed on a dab page. The set is then titled in accordance with WP:NC:CITY#Russia's guidelines. Is this what you had in mind?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); December 13, 2012; 16:29 (UTC)

   I think the tricky point here is what is the main usage (why for instance Podporozhye is not the name of an article about the town - it is more widespread than all other Podporozhyes taken together). I believe this is a common misunderstanding point, and it would be good if it gets to the manual.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

   This is merely a default approach and can always be overridden by a successful RM. In fact, this very thing recently happened on Talk:Kstovo. I personally don't believe much is achieved by such RMs (as long as redirects/dabs/sets are all properly interlinked, chances of a reader getting lost a pretty slim and consistency isn't compromised), but I most certainly don't mind them much either. The rationale is that while the town is likely more notable than the other localities, it is still pretty damn small and obscure to most readers. You wouldn't waste your time on determining "the most notable village" out of a list of ten villages few people heard about; I don't see Podporozhye as much different. All this probably is not a guideline material, though.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); December 13, 2012; 16:53 (UTC)

Comments from Stanislaw Lem

Missing issues

• Orthography: I boldly renamed the section because it must be more than Romanization. It must discuss the following issues:
  • Pronunciation renderiing guidelines
  • Yo (Cyrillic) confusion
  • Some time ago I remember seeing a guideline on transliteration from Russian Cyrillic. Is it still in advice?

• Other names
  • Personal names, Business names
  • Abbreviations (which language base: (FSB vs FSS)

• History
  • Russia was not always what is not Russian Federation. How to deal with very non-Russian subjects of Russian Empire (eg Poland, with its own manual of style) or Soviet Union

Thanks, Staszek Lem (talk) 18:12, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I'v just noticed the draft is just started. It is a weird coincidence that I noticed it right away. I swear I am not watching Big Brother :-) Staszek Lem (talk) 18:17, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

1. Not sure what you mean by "pronunciation rendering guidelines"? There's always IPA if one wants to add pronunciation, but the practice is the same for Russian topics as it is for everything else.
2. Good idea about "yo".
3. Russian romanization guideline is WP:RUS.
4. Regarding names etc., all that and perhaps more can be stolen from the now-dead WP:NCRUS and incorporated here. While that proposal didn't go anywhere, in reality its provisions are still closely followed, so as a descriptive guideline they should be fine.
5. There is no established practice about the abbreviations currently; I believe it's all on the case-by-case basis (and "FSS"? Really? :). With that in mind, one can't create a "descriptive guideline" when there's nothing to describe :) As for prescriptive guidelines, they are outside the scope of this page (at least for now).
6. Same thing about history—there is just no established pattern to document.
7. Thanks for your input! Regardless of whether you are watching on purpose or not, constructive comments are always appreciated!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); December 13, 2012; 19:14 (UTC)

1. IPA is not I like: useless for normal folk.
2. -
3. - sorry; it is linked I didn't notice BTW, do you really have a settlement or other proper name Тетраэдральный = Tetraedralny or Козючинск = Kozyuchinsk?
4. -
5. -
6. - While there is no practice, you still have to decide what to do in the case of potential conflict. The scope of this guideline is "about Russia". You have to decide what to do with Kyiv or Proskuriv in the Russian Empire. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:09, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

On one, if not IPA, then what? Plus, this seems to be outside the scope of this guideline as well.

On three, Tetraedralny and Kozyuchinsk are just made up examples to illustrate the principle. These rules are used for things other than place names, but of course one could replace them with real examples such as "Заэрап"="Zaerap" (in Vologda Oblast) and "Козюльки"="Kozyulki" (in Pskov Oblast).

On six, Kiev is at "Kiev" anyway, so nothing is really affected as far as articles on history go, and places like Proskuriv are normally piped when used in Russian historical context. When one of the two applicable guidelines absolutely must be chosen (which I don't think happens all that often), the usual practice is to go with the guideline pertaining to the country on the territory of which the entity is located (so, for example, if Russia- and Poland-specific guidelines clash in, say, the Warsaw article, the Polish guidelines would prevail). But that's just common sense—do we really need to document this?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); December 13, 2012; 21:35 (UTC)

Proposed MoS addition on optional stress marking in Russian, Ukrainian, Japanese, Korean, etc.

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#RfC?, for a proposal relating to optional characters/marks for indicating vocal stress, used in some foreign languages, include "ruby" characters for Japanese and Korean, and znaki udareniya marks in Ukrainian and Russian. The short version is that, based on a rule already long found in MOS:JAPAN and consonant with WP:NOTDICT policy, MoS would instruct (in MOS:FOREIGN) not to use these marks (primarily intended for pedagogical purposes) except in unusual circumstances, like direct quotation, or discussion of the marks themselves. Target date for implementation is April 21. PS: This does not relate to Vietnamese tone marks.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:40, 8 April 2021 (UTC)