Wikipedia talk:Scottish Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 9

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Replaceable fair use disputed

Images of Goldie, Salmond and Stephen have already been deleted. Please see discussion at Image talk:Jack McConnell.jpg. This "fair use" issue is also current at the newly-uploaded Image:Alex Salmond.jpg.

It would be especially helpful if Users familiar with copyright and/or images could comment on this hot potato. --Mais oui! 11:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you will lose this. Bottom line is that with high profile public figures, free images should be available. Either someone has snapped them at some point and will be willing to release it under the CC terms, or you could contact their publicity machines and see if they are willing to release something.--Doc^g 11:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

or maybe one of you Edinburghers can nip down to the parliament building with a camera and hang about a bit. Anybody from Banff & Buchan or Gordon needing to see their MP about something ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 02:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Earl of Carrick

There was an action earlier today by User:Tryde, who copied and pasted the contents of Earl of Carrick to a new article Earl of Carrick (Scotland), turning Earl of Carrick into a dab page. I reverted this move. Besides the fact that moves are not supposed to take place like this, my view is that the Scottish Earl of Carrick is clearly primary usage. I think this is quite safe, but if the user wishes further action, there may be a vote. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Presbyterianism

I notice that the Presbyterianism article lumps Scotland and England together. As any fule no, Presbyterians have historically been in the ascendancy here, and are "dissenters" south of the Border. They have quite a different history, just as the Episcopal church does on either side of the Border. --MacRusgail 20:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

If you know a bit, historically, and currently, about presbyterianism, perhaps you could add a bit to the religion section in Lewis, hint, hint... ;-) MRM 21:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

New species discovered in Scotland

The following article may be of interest - Catacol Whitebeam. I would appreciate any help that you can give me to improve it.--MacRusgail 15:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Dead Kings

I've created a new article on Burial places of British monarchs. I've focussed quite a lot on the Scottish stuff - but anyone interested in helping would be appreciated.--Sandy Donald 18:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Banner

I was looking for a WP:SCO banner to put it in my user page in commons, I didn't find any, so I made one and create a category, "Banners of Scotland" at commons. here is how the banner looks Like, any commnents?

John Manuel-01:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Consistency across articles

Please see Talk:University of Dundee#Edit wars. --Mais oui! 09:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Scotland portal a candidate for removal from featured portals.

See here. The portal seems to be poorly maintained Lurker 17:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

POV in Inverness article?

If anybody is suficiently interested, please check Inverness and the discussions on its talk page. It seems to me, and others, that there is an over-stressing of what is a minor issue in the introduction, and that the issues raised (such as they are) would be better represented by their own section. As it is, it reads very negatively and is quite unlike the entries for pretty much every other place I've seen here. Personally, I am sick fed up beating my head against the wikiwall on this issue and would appreciate some independant review of the situation. Lianachan 12:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Fettes. Again.

POV-pushing seems to be happening once more over at the Fettes College article. Lurker (talk · contribs) 16:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Image request

First of all, sorry for my English but I'm French...
I'm looking for a nice photo of the flag of Scotland to put in the banner of the french Scotland Portal. I'd like something like this one or this other one. So if you have a saltire in your garden or next to your home please take your camera and snap it with a nice sky in the back. Thanks a lot, Ayack 18:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC) And don't hesitate to correct my mistakes :-)

Salut Ayack, I'll reply in English... I'm sure someone here would be willing to let you use their flag, especially if requested in the group discussion. As I'm a member, I can ask if you like? MRM 18:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Jo Rowling, the pride of Aberfeldy

At a loose end?

• Talk:J._K._Rowling#Scottish.3F

--Mais oui! 13:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Nationality proposal in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (United Kingdom-related articles)

A rather interesting proposed innovation in guidelines is taking place at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (United Kingdom-related articles) and Wikipedia Talk:Manual of Style (United Kingdom-related articles). Essentially, it is an attempt to prescribe that all Scottish, English, Welsh and Northern Irish people be called "British" in all articles concerning people from the United Kingdom. Essentially, if one finds themselves trying to retain "Sir Thomas Sean Connery (born August 25, 1930) is an Academy Award-winning Scottish actor and producer " instead of "Sir Thomas Sean Connery (born August 25, 1930) is an Academy Award-winning British actor and producer", the person pushing the latter will be able to quote the British only guidelines at you. If you support or oppose this innovation, or if you have any thoughts, you should go to the talk page. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Please debate this proposal on the relevant talk page, not here Lurker (said · done) 14:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Lurker, I trust you transferred all of the messages deleted from this over there - didn't you? --MacRusgail 14:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I'll leave that to the people involved (use the history). If you don't want comments deleted don't post them in the wrong place. Lurker (said · done) 14:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Easy to say that after people have posted, and you put the warning after there have been several replies. --MacRusgail 14:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Scottish Cities

The article "City status in the United Kingdom" needs more Scottish input. --MacRusgail 21:14, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Lauder

There is a dispute going on at Talk:Lauder. I am one of the two parties, the other being David Lauder. The dispute concerns the presentation of out-dated pseudo-history as fact in the article. I have requested third parties look in, but no-one has done so yet. So I invite a wider audience here. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Scottish space school

A desperately sad article. Surely it could be fixed up before it gets sent off to AfD. Anyone fancy the challenge? Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Scottish Gaelic Wiktionary - volunteers needed

Hi all,

I'm User:Alison - I'm sysop over on ga.wiktionary, where I'm rehabilitating the Irish language Wiktionary. Either way, I discovered last week that the Scottish Gaelic Wiktionary had been badly vandalised, had not been cleaned up in ages and was in serious disrepair. They had no sysop at all!! In fact, it's a prime candidate for shutting down and archiving :(

I requested emergency sysop privs and, to my surprise (horror! :) ), ended up with three months. So rather than just do a quick tidy-up and bail out, I'm hoping to stick around and get the wikt back on its feet. Though it's dormant, it's actually got a lot more pages than the Irish wikt does!

The problem I have is, though I'm reasonably fluent as Gaeilge, I cannot write Scottish Gaelic. I can read it okay & get the general idea, but I cannot do content creation. So right now, I'm updating the wikt; fixing MediaWiki to use proper Gàidhlig - that shouldn't be an issue, adding templates & systems pages, etc.

So ... this is a call to arms. Anyone interested in saving the Scottish Gaelic Wiktionary? You don't have to speak Gàidhlig to dig in - there's tons of work to do. Just click here!!

Who's with me? - Alison ☺ 16:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. Didn't even know it existed. I wonder who set it up ? It's a pity they didn't let the contributors to the Gaelic Wikipedia know. Anyway, I'll do what I can but we really need native speakers like AnSiarach for the job. By the way the link should be to the Duille Mor really, shouldn't it. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Duh! My mistake. Fixed now :) If anyone's active over on gd.wikipedia, spamming it to the Halla Baile, or whatever the noticeboard is called, would be cool. BTW, anyone who wants to help out on the Irish Language wikt would also be more than welcome - Alison ☺ 17:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia story in Scotland on Sunday

This may be of interest to some Users. However, I have got to say that SoS do appear to be a tad late with this. The WikiScanner story has been doing the rounds in the world's media for ages now.

• "Wikipedia warzone", Scotland on Sunday

Bit unfair to pick on Aberdeenshire Council too, considering that many public libraries and schools have their ip addresses. This is yet another reason to consider very carefully the advice contained in Wikipedia:Why create an account? --Mais oui! 05:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, it was good for a laugh, especially the mention of their "sophisticated scanning software", which I'm sure us mortals will never be able to use :D Jonathan Oldenbuck 10:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Have a look at the recent edits of Ann Gloag and Section 28. The poster calling himself Sylvester McCoy has also edited bits of stagecoach articles, and other things on the homosexual debate a few years back. One has to ask, is this another case of corporate editing? --MacRusgail 16:02, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

New Babel templates

If anyone likes to use the Wikipedia:Babel or Wikipedia:Userboxes on their Wikipedia:User page, then we have a new set of templates at our disposal. Please see:

• Template:User en-sc

--Mais oui! 07:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Renewable energy FAC

This began with various grumbles about images that I imagine I can fix. However, Tony then entered the fray and had unkind words to say about my deathless prose, ending up with "Try to find others to help with the copy-editing." Does anyone have such skills and/or know where to find such? I am somewhat in awe of Mr. T and I have been through so many reviews and re-edits of this article already I am struggling to see the cellulosic decomposition for the Forestry Commission plantations at present. Any help gratefully received. See Renewable energy in Scotland (nom). Ben MacDui (Talk) 15:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Celts

This culture, which has influenced literature, farming, navigation and so much of European life, for 4,000 years, and covers places as diverse as Portugal and Asia Minor, would be worthy of its own project. Modern areas still Celtic include Brittany, Cornwall, Ireland, the Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales. Please weigh in at the proposal Chris 04:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I understood Galicia to also be a modern celtic area. Or am I wrong? Rab-k 12:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Galician is a Romance Language. Of course, Galicia would once have been culturally Celtic, like much of Western Europe used to be, but that is in the distant past. Lurker (said · done) 12:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The Galician issue is thorny, but as far as I can tell, England is as Celtic, if not more so than Galicia. --MacRusgail 15:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

"Saint" Kilda

I've nominated this for moving to St Kilda as there is no such place as St Kilda. Join in the discussion here. Lurker (said · done) 10:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Andy Murray, again

Yes, it's another Andy Murray edit war. Here we go again! Lurker (said · done) 13:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Terrific. Get involved in an edit war, and then go seeking recruits to support you so you don't get a 3RR warning? --Breadandcheese 15:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

People who live in glass houses..... --Mais oui! 15:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't edit war. I engage in negotiation and, while that is ongoing, I revert edits that are made without any attempt at justification in the edit summary or talk page (an act which is, of course, contrary to Wikipedia's guidelines). Just for the record, I have not edited the Andy Murray page at all during this, but I've gone to the effort of putting in some suggestions on the talk page. You, on the other hand... --Breadandcheese 16:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I, on the other hand, restored the ref which had mysteriously managed to get removed by someone who found it inconvenient. --Mais oui! 16:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Breadandcheese, bringing an article to the attention of those who are interested in it is seen as a good thing on Wikipedia. And don't impugn my motives for doing so. Lurker (said · done) 16:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Go seeking recruits? Geez, Mr Cheese, weren't you one of the ones who wanted to delete any mention of Scotland, Wales and England, and replace it with GB/UK, without bothering to consult the various national boards about it? --MacRusgail 18:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not remotely what I wanted to do. Aren't you the one who kept prattling on about your bizarre political ideas until we were all thorougly bored and gave up? --Breadandcheese 04:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Even disambig pages aren't safe! That's right, Glasgow Airport is not in Scotland. Lurker (said · done) 17:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Um, I never said that either. It seems bizarre to me the sort of people who would think that Scotland could in any way be equuivilent to the United States rather than a state thereof. It was blatently wrong, and now we've ended up with a 'compromise' that just looks silly. It appears that mentioning Scotland twice in fourteen words is not your view of 'enough information' on a location being in Scotland. I'm afraid it's very difficult not to question motives when faced with things like that. --Breadandcheese 04:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Press-ups and Push-ups

There is a discussion underway at the press-up talk page as a user wants to move to the U.S usage- push-up. As this would appear to be in violation of the MoS (no renaming articles to other national varieties of English unless the topic has strong national ties), the move is unlikely to be approved but additional input on the talk page would be welcome. Lurker (said · done) 09:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Rfc - is Andrew Murray a Scot?

Please see:

• Request for comment

--Mais oui! 14:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

English language?

Featured article today, "thou" - it may be worth pointing out that Lowland Scots is included in English dialects. By the way, I'm not getting into the whole language v. dialect thing - can't be bothered. I'm just bringing this to your attention. --MacRusgail 17:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

That's life. It's not worth getting upset about. Especially since most Scots dialects abandoned "thou" a long time ago. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Nationality POV-pushers reach a new low

I suggest adding the article on the recently deceased rally driver Colin McRae to your watchlists. His body may be barely cold, but that isn't stopping the article from becoming the subject of a Scottish/British edit war. Lurker (said · done) 11:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. This is the most disgusting piece of petty nationalist shit-throwing I can remember on Wikipedia. The biography has stated that he was Scottish for as far back as I can be bothered to look in the edit history, but the moment the poor guy is killed, and therefore back in the headlines, the ranks of mindless British nationalist flag wavers come out of the nearest swamp. Truly, truly nauseating behaviour. --Mais oui! 12:26, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

MO, I totally agree. Disgusting. --MacRusgail 15:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

"petty nationalist shit-throwing". Can we tone down the language please? Debate should occur without everything falling into the gutter. AGF, NPA etc etc. SFC9394 18:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Question: How is this "disgusting"? People die, it's a sad but nessascary fact (We don't want the world to be overrun afterall). The fact is that he has a British racing license and a British passport, therefore for encyclopedic usage he is British, not Scottish. Not only that but he is considered Scottish in the lead, isn't that enough? --Phill ^{talk Edits} _{Review this GA review!} 15:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you are pursuing a petty political agenda, with someone who has just died. That is disgusting. You really don't get it do you? The man is, and was, Scottish. --MacRusgail 18:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

One: I rather think you're doing the political agenda pushing. As we saw from the Nationality proposals, you are totally unwilling to discuss any merits of anything, just to throw around what Mais Oui! so eloquently refers. Now stop pretending that it matters a jot to Wikipedia that the man has just died - we didn't know him and we're supposed to be objective seekers of fact, not emotional playactors. If I come across a fact that is incorrect, I edit it, simple as that - although I did not participate in the editing of the page in question. The man is, and was, British too. What of it? --Breadandcheese 03:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The trouble is that you're not very objective at all. Stop pretending to be. What of it? Is it illegal to be Scottish? If it bothers you so much, why not include it under some British subcats? Scots is my nationality, not "British". Britain is not a nation, but a state. --MacRusgail 15:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

An Englishman here, coming in peace (I hope!). I was reading McRae's page earlier, and noticed that the Nationality field was missing entirely from his infobox, so that it just read "{{{Nationality}}}". Clearly that needed fixing, so I changed it to "British". I did not change "Scottish" to "British", as it happens. However... I have to agree with those who feel he should be listed as such. Is McRae's Scottishness notable and relevant to the article? Absolutely it is, and mentioning it in the lead paragraph is sensible. But Scotland is not an independent country - whether people believe it should be independent is as much irrelevant here as it is with articles about Welsh or Cornish people.

If he'd been a footballer, cricketer, rugby player etc - any sport where the governing body made a significant distinction between the two nations - then that would be different. In motorsport, the FIA does not do this, and so "British" is correct. As it happens (not that it changes the argument) I was a huge fan of McRae, and was extremely upset to hear this news, but that doesn't mean we should start down the dangerous road of leaving "respectful intervals" before editing a deceased person's page. Actually, seeing as a death like this will mean a lot more views, I think it's important edits are continued at such a time. Loganberry (Talk) 16:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

A non-British from the continental side of the Channel, here. I have a simple "yes or no" question here. Is Scotland an independent country? --Pc13 18:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Scotland is a sporting nation. Is France part of the EU? If so, why don't we convert all references to France to "European Union", as that body takes precedence over it? --MacRusgail 15:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

No... but there isn't one single criterion that will suffice for all sports. For example, consider someone from Belfast. In football, their nation would be considered to be "Northern Ireland". In rugby, it would be "Ireland". And in motorsport, it would be "United Kingdom". What's important is what the governing body of that particular sport uses. Loganberry (Talk) 22:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

That is the entire point - it isn't a simple question. And attempts to distil this complex situation into some "simple answer" has lead to the current problems. It is complex - there is no simple answer. Scotland is part of the UK, yet has a very distinct and separate identity - much more so than it being nothing more than some "regional area" that it is viewed as in some quarters. To "simplify" is pointless - illustrated no better than the rejected guideline proposal that anyone with a UK passport had to be defined as their nationality being British - as the discussions that torpedoed it proved, there were literally hundreds of situations where the guideline was not only completely inappropriate, but frankly ludicrous. Simplified solutions never work - not for a complex socio, political and historical situation - it is actually completely insensitive to arbitrarily apply such simplified solutions. And while I am on a run with this I might as well bring up another area - wikpedia needs to get off this ridiculous "standardisation" bandwagon. The extent to which articles are forced to fit into some specific content "template" is getting silly. We are ending up with nothing but thousands of identikit articles that are actively *not* allowed to show any individuality away from "what we cabal of 5 editors on some backwater template page agreed upon" - any deviation is reverted as being non-standard - I am getting fed up with it. SFC9394 22:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The field in this infobox is nationality. Comparing to other sports doesn't work. I looked at {{Infobox Rugby biography}} which does not have a nationality field. It includes fields for place of birth, and national teams represented, without regard to whether the player was actually a citizen of the country they represented. --Scott Davis ^Talk 23:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, my main area of work is biographies of cricketers - and in that sport we have several interesting factors. Firstly, as I mentioned above, England and Scotland are distinct sporting nations in cricket, and so Darren Gough, for example, gets a big English flag in his infobox, while Fraser Watts gets a Scottish flag. Wales is considered together with England for cricketing purposes (hence England and Wales Cricket Board) and so the Welshman Robert Croft also gets an English flag. Then you have to consider that Scotland have sometimes competed in English domestic competitions, and on those occasions non-Scottish people (such as the Indian Rahul Dravid) have appeared in Scotland colours. Note that he's categorised under "Scotland cricketers" but not "Scottish cricketers"; they're not the same thing. (Not to mention West Indies, a collection of independent countries who are considered a single nation specifically for cricketing purposes!)

On top of all that, we have people like Gavin Hamilton, whose international history is somewhat complex. He played international cricket at One-Day International level for Scotland, then appeared in a single Test match for England, and then played further ODIs for Scotland! His case was further complicated by the fact that that one appearance for England required him to spend four years re-qualifying for Scotland! Tests are more prestigious than ODIs, so on that score he should have been listed as "English", but against that he'd appeared many more times for Scotland. I think a combination of that and his actual birthplace tipped the balance in the end towards "Scottish", which is how he's listed now. "British" would have looked silly simply because there's no such national identity recognised by cricket's governing body. As a previous editor said, it's not always simple! However, until and unless the FIA decide that drivers should be listed as English, Scottish etc, I can't see that UK competitors in motorsport should be listed as anything other than "British". Loganberry (Talk) 02:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[1]. As I said - simple blanket rules are not only a bad idea, but a pretty naive way to write an encyclopaedia. SFC9394 19:46, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, the flags on the side of the car are not official as the drivers request which flag they have on the side of their car. A good, and recent example, is down in the Formula BMW category where a certain Rupert Svendsen-Cook races under a UK license (thus the "GB" in this document from the Official FBMW UK site) but has the Flag of Norway on the side of his car, (see picture here [2]) so tell me, is Rupert Norwegian because he has a flag on the side of his car? No, because he doesn't have a Norwegian passport or racing license, therefore he can't be considered Norwegian - The same with McRae and Scotland. --Phill ^{talk Edits} _{Review this GA review!} 12:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I notice there is some major hypocrisy going on, the Andrea McLean article is edited to read that she is British, and a comment about her accent edited out, oh and its by an anonymous IP which I find deeply suspicious. Yet both Carol McGiffin and Coleen Nolan have English as their nationalities and it is left alone, and the Scots are accused of being petty..... Douglasnicol 15:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Issues regarding ownership of articles seem to come up here. The article on David Coulthard was reverted with an edit summary saying it was " per consensus on WP:F1", who are not an authority regarding nationality as far as I am aware. Lurker (said · done) 12:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The latest argument is "nationality of racing license". I was not aware an inanimate object could have a nationality. Lurker (said · done) 10:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe "nationality of racing license" is your phrase - it was not used in the discussion on Coulthard. "License" with that spelling was *certainly* not used by me! An inanimate object can *show* a nationality, just as the WP infobox does.

Why is your opinion - unilateral, to use your word - better than a consensus? Every change to Wikipedia is made by a single user, so you can call it unilateral. David Coulthard is Scottish. There is no argument about that, the article states it in its first few words. He is also British - he participates in motor racing as British, the Union Jack is raised when he finishes on the podium. If you dispute that, cite a source. If not, it becomes a matter of opinion which nationality is used in which context. You are welcome to re-open the discussion, but not to overrule it with your own POV. -- Ian Dalziel 11:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm still interested in only one thing, which is to define legal citizenship. Whatever regional hang-ups you guys have inside your borders is up to you. As far as I'm aware, Colin McRae and all other Scottish racing drivers are as British as Nigel Mansell. As a non-Brit, I don't see the Scottish claim to nationality as having more value than the Catalunian, Flemish and Tibetan claims. --Pc13 18:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Scotland isn't a "region", it is a consituent kingdom/country of the UK. But then again, you probably think the Dalai Lama is Chinese - he isn't by any stretch. --MacRusgail 17:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Although on a related article, look at the Graham Obree article, he was born in England, yet seems to be referred to often as Scottish, when I brought this up I got a rather snide reply about 'petty nationalism'. It's strange that its the English that seem to be throwing most of the insults around. I think you should be able to be proud to be Scottish, English, Welsh or Irish, you can even be proud to be one of those AND British, but it seems to be that if you're a proud Scot you're suddenly getting tarred with the SNP/SSP brush and I object strongly to that. I know some English folk have said that they sometimes feel (this was on another internet site) that if they display the St Georges cross the tabloid media often start throwing insinuations around regarding the BNP which is unfortunate. Can't we all be proud to be an inhabitant of one of the constituent countries that make up the UNITED Kingdom? Douglasnicol 16:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Scotland good article in jeopardy

The good article status of the Scotland article may be rescinded, due to several issues, such as overlinking and badly-formatted references. See the talk page for a fuller list of problems with the article. Lurker (said · done) 10:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

New Scottish English userbox

See original Talk page announcement above: Wikipedia_talk:Scottish_Wikipedians'_notice_board#New_Babel_templates.

Hello all, there are the new Scottish English userboxes. These userboxes replaced {{User en-sc}}, since ISO 3166-2:GB#BS-only codes shows Scotland's code to be gb-sct, not "sc". For more details, see Wikipedia:Userboxes/Non-ISO Languages#en-gb-sct (Scottish English). Cheers! Taric25 16:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the policy to discuss before making changes that very specifically affect something across hundreds of userboxes - consensus? after all these are choices made by individual editors - now having their language rolled into "GB" - whatever that means (see discussion above) SFC9394 17:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, on further inspection you simply shouldn't be doing that Taric - [3] that's someone's user page - you can make one change on good faith - but you should not be reverting - most certainly because this isn't in any severe polemic area. SFC9394 17:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

In fairness to Taric, it seems it was only in use in three places, although that does not alter the principle. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank-you for choosing to engage in this positive way. I note that ISO 3166-2:GB#BS-only codes states "None of these codes are part of ISO 3166-2. GB-UKM United Kingdom... GB-SCT Scotland." They are also area codes rather than language codes. Ben MacDui (Talk) 17:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I fear that we are developing a reputation for boisterous dialogue and that M. Taric may have seen this as an announcement rather than an ongoing dialogue. I will move the above to Template talk:User en-gb-sct-N and continue the discussion there. There seem to be two issues. Firstly M. Taric's insousiance with User pages (bygones), and secondly whether the new template is of value. Personally I am of the view that whilst it is unlikely to be used a great deal the 0-N gradings could be considered an improvement. However, "English-British-Scottish" in a userbox is an absurd mouthful and not consistent with other userboxes. I intend to suggest the 'gb' be removed. See you there. Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

A while back I created a set of Userboxes for speakers of Scottish English: {{Language table|en-sc}} Another user then created a duplicate set of boxes and their associated cats, the only difference being that they renamed them from "en-sc" to "en-gb-sct". Which do you prefer? Please contribute at:

• Wikipedia:User_categories_for_discussion#Scottish_English

--Mais oui! 07:23, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Per the consensus of the our discussion at Per Wikipedia:User categories for discussion#Scottish English categories, we now use the following userboxes.

{{Language table|en-sco}}

Cheers! Taric25 12:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Douglas Young

In Douglas Young (classicist), I wikilinked Act of Union to Acts of Union 1707. I did it as part of The Red Link Project, but I don't know the facts here. There are four acts of union. I'm asking for a doublecheck that I linked to the right one. The context is below.

In 1938, Douglas Young joined the Scottish Nationalist Party (SNP) and served as leader 1942 to 1945. Christian Kopff wrote an article called "A Free-Minded Scot" which is a biography of Douglas Young focusing on his efforts to test the Act Of Unions right to force Scots to serve in the British Military outside of the British Isles.

Whether it's good or bad, I'll leave it the experts here to fix it. Thank you. Guroadrunner 03:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Scottish people yet again

There's a new picture gracing Scottish people. It includes that weel-kent son of Scotia Mel Gibson. As Sean might say, shurely shome mishtake! Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Possibly unfree image: Image:St Margaret.jpg

I've listed Image:St Margaret.jpg at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images. It's currently used in three articles. The grisly details are at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images/2007 September 25. Essentially the stained glass window remains a copyrighted work (creator died 1950, work created 1934) and as an imagining, it can't be fair use in two of the three articles. Whether it can be fair use in Saint Margaret's Chapel, that I don't know. Do you? If so, tell the nice people at PUI. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Angus, it always gives me a chuckle when I hear "unfree" - it's a word I have only ever seen on wikipedia and in 1984. --MacRusgail 14:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Lewis Relocation Proposal

I am putting a proposal in the talk page of Lewis that Lewis be moved to "Isle of Lewis" and the disambig page moved to Lewis (or just no article at "Lewis"). This is because of an endless stream of people vandalising the "isle of lewis" article with messages for friends called "Lewis". If you are interested, please comment on the Lewis talk page.MRM 11:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)rm

North Briton move

I have proposed a move of the North Briton article to North Britain in order to be able to incorporate more information and give a clearer introduction to the concept. I feel that while the latter can easily imply the former, the present situation seems to be entirely geared towards simply discussing the people rather than the entirety of the topic.

Anyway, I've started a discussion on the talk page. --Breadandcheese 03:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Here we go again!

The edit warring on Colin McRae has resumed.

Sigh. Lurker (said · done) 16:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

And its funny again how the Scots get accused when its the other side making a bigger issue...disgusting. Douglasnicol 17:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Beware, at least one of the parties concerned appears to be using a sock puppet too. --MacRusgail 14:23, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Ulster Banner straw poll

Hello there,

A straw poll has opened at this section of the United Kingdom talk page regarding the use of the Ulster Banner for that article's circumstances only. To capture a representative result as possible, you are invited to pass your opinion there. If joining the poll, please keep a cool head, and remain civil. Hope to see you there, Jza84 22:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Irvine Central Hospital

Can someone help me find out whether Irvine Central Hospital (an article I just created) is the same as Ayrshire Central Hospital? They look like sharing telno and address but they are listed as distinct hospitals in one of the refs... no time for me to google it more. NerdyNSK 20:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Ancient universities of Scotland - redirect?

Should the Ancient universities of Scotland article be redirected?. Please contribute to the discussion at Talk:Ancient universities of Scotland.--Mais oui! 10:49, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It has been redirected for months. Feel free to open up a discussion on it, however I believe its an entirely uncontroversial merge and a waste of time. --Breadandcheese 11:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't really fit with the British image considering that most of these were founded when Scotland was an independent country, and so have entirely different styles and foundations. --MacRusgail 14:06, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Equally, there are enormous features in common with the institutions and, moreover, is anybody going to create a "Ancient Universities of Ireland" or "Ancient Universities of England" article? The ancient universities article is inevitably going to have a large Scottish focus as there have been five (or six, depending on outlook) ancient universities in Scotland, vs three in the rest of the British Isles. --Breadandcheese 04:43, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Good point. With that focus the "Ancient university" article should be more descriptively named, perhaps something like "Ancient universities of Scotland, etcetera", <grin>. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:26, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Um, no. That'd be rather like redirecting British people to White British just because most of the former are part of the latter. In other words, patently ridiculous. --Breadandcheese 07:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I was Egregious Professor of Accountancy at the University of Gondwanaland for a time and I take serious issue with the use of 'ancient' in this context. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a very good suggestion, perhaps someone can start the articles about the "Ancient Universities of Ireland" and "Ancient Universities of England" --MacRusgail 18:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

If anyone feels they can create a good-quality, cited article about this subject, the best option would be to be bold and create it where the redirect used to be. Lurker (said · done) 14:24, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Scotland: The Worst?

We prominently display our successes at WP:SCO, but in the interests of maintaining a balanced view of our achievements, perhaps we should own up to our deficiencies. Why not a list of the project's worst articles? I'd like to nominate Slainte with its hilarious combination of non-sequitours, and lack of disambiguation. Ben MacDui (Talk) 17:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Manual of Style (biographies): British, or English, (Northern) Irish, Scottish, Welsh?

Hi, there's currently a proposal by me for "Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)" to be clarified with usage notes regarding the use of "British" or "English", "(Northern) Irish", "Scottish" and "Welsh" to be used to describe the nationality of persons in biographical articles. Do provide your views at the "talk page" so that broad consensus on the matter can be reached. Cheers, Jacklee 16:59, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Portal:Ireland

Portal:Ireland is up for featured portal candidacy. All views welcome! --sony-youth^pléigh 11:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Coordinates - Help?

I've just finished an article House of the Binns and I'm working on some more properties. But I'm wondering how you put the coordinates on these things. Can someone point me to the right page, cos I can't find instructions?--Doc^g 09:53, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

If you have a look at Template:Coor, that covers what there is in the way of templates that work with latitude and longitude. The main problem seems to be people using a template that expects degrees, minutes, (and seconds) with a decimal value or vice versa. If you want to use OS map references, there's Template:Oscoor.

That means that SD7668 should be about the same place as 54°6′40.31″N 2°21′27.1″W and so it is! Angus McLellan (Talk) 10:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Shapinsay Peer Review

The article on the island of Shapinsay is up for peer review. Feel free to contribute suggestions on how the article can be improved. Lurker (said · done) 15:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

UK infobox place

An edit shuffle has been taking place as various editors have attempted to remove the Saltire in the Inverness infobox. This is clearly not just about Inverness and as there are several other unresolved issues concerning the use of this template, I have begun a dialogue at Template talk:Infobox UK place/doc/examples (the talk page adjacent to the 'Scottish' example of the infobox). Your input is welcome. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 20:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Andrew Carnegie

Andrew Carnegie's article has been stripped of its Good Article status, due to a lack of references, and stubby paragraph style. Feel free to help correct this. Lurker (said · done) 14:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Shapinsay Featured Article Candidate

The article on the island of Shapinsay is now a Featured Article Candidate. Please go to its nomination page to give your opinion. Lurker (said · done) 13:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Céilidh

I'm no expert on céilidhs but having just read the article it seems overly prescriptive as to the definition and to have too much emphasis on a modern day and non-Highland concept of a céilidh. It's also lacking in-text citations and could do with some copy-editing. Mutt Lunker 00:08, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Scotland national football team/Tartan Army

The Scotland national football team's nickname is listed as "The Tartan Army", in contradiction to the latter's own article. This is cited though, although I'm unsure how reliably. Surely Tartan Army is only ever used in reference to the support and not the team. Does anyone know of any reputable, particularly Scottish, reference's to support this usage before I scrap it? Mutt Lunker 00:20, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I doubt that you'll be able to find a reliable reference, so scrap it. The two websites referenced in the article are just plain wrong. The Tartan Army has always been the fans, not the players. As I recall the term first became popular during the Argentinian World Cup campaign. -- Derek Ross | Talk 00:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

We don't like to talk about that. :(--Doc^g 02:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge of National Cuisines

Apparently there is no unique Scottish cuisine. I nearly choked over my rowie at that one. See a proposal to merge all UK national cuisine articles into British cuisine. Leithp 11:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Some people just love to merge. It's getting a little much in some places. Why have an article on Scotland at all, why not merge it into East Anglia or Brugges or Chocolate?MRM 13:00, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd very much like to live in a word where Scotland could be easily merged with an article on Chocolate from Bruges. Generally though, merging does work and is fairly positive rather than the duplication that would exist without it. Sometimes it's considerably more difficult to contain and article within a strict and tight (and sometimes entirely arbitrary) remit. --Breadandcheese 22:06, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Scottish Government

It apears that WP is having problems keeping up with restructuring at the recently renamed Scottish Government. The problem seems to be the replacement of a dozen departments with around 40 directorates, and how best to present this on WP. Please see discussion at Talk:Scottish Government#Directorates. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 10:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Anybody fancy some proof-reading?

Unlikely I know, but if you do, perhaps you could take a quick look at Constantine II of Scotland. It's rather long, although not as long as Scotland, only a pudgy who-ate-half-the-bridies? 47K, and a fair bit of that is references that nobody will read anyway. Any and all criticism gratefully received. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC) I'll take a wee look later on today. Lurker (said · done) 12:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Copyediting Shapinsay

The Shapinsay FA nomination has been opposed by an editor who feels the article could be with some more copyediting. Two of us have made some improvements, but a copyedit from someone who isn't so familiar with the article may catch things we've missed. Lurker (said · done) 12:30, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Neilston peer review

Hello team,

Just a note to all those geographers out there that Neilston (a village near Glasgow) is up for peer review. Any feedback/input is welcome at Wikipedia:Peer review/Neilston/archive1. I'm aware some of the text is a little weak, but I've struggled finding source material as the village is so small. -- Jza84 · (talk) 02:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Last call for Shapinsay

The Shapinsay article has been a Featured Article candidate for a while now. Objections have been raised and dealt with; there are now no oppose votes. However, some extra input is needed to get this passed. Please go to the nomination page, have a look at the article, and then give your opinion. If you can vote support, great. If you have objections, please raise them sooner rather than later so we can get them fixed. A lot of work by multiple members of this WikiProject has gone into this article, so please support us by voting for the article or showing us where the article needs fixing. It'd be a shame if, after many of us having extensively worked on the article to deal with objections, the article failed because of apathy. Lurker (said · done) 15:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, someone heeded the call, and the article was promptly promoted. Thanks. Lurker (said · done) 17:55, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

List of Scottish counties by area

Have you noticed this is prodded? Not by me, btw. Greswik (talk) 20:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Records of the Parliaments of Scotland

There's a new website, currently in the beta test phase, for the Records of the Parliaments of Scotland at http://www.rps.ac.uk which might be of interest, Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

That looks very interesting. Well done, St Andrews University and in particular, the RPS project members! I particularly like the feedback form for pointing out corrections that need to be made to spelling, translations, etc. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:27, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Scotland peer review

With the intention of getting Scotland promoted to Featured Article early in 2008, there is now a peer review to comment on. Any help would be much appreciated. Lurker (said · done) 15:14, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

When did Wikipedia become a free publicity vehicle for the Labour Party?

After an edit yesterday, the Scottish independence article reads:

• "Scottish independence is a separatist political ambition of..."

When did Wikipedia become a free publicity vehicle for the Labour Party? --Mais oui! (talk) 10:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

• • Fixed (the article, not Wikipedia). Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 11:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

• Sections of the article deeply trouble me as well (not for obvious reasons either). It does seem highly POV and does sound like a collection of WP:OR statements, that are kind of referenced in a certain way - to reference the claim - but not to reference the point that is being made, if you catch what I mean - ie the references are ambiguous.

There are also plenty of POV (disputable) statements:

"There are also many who are concerned that independence would lead to the break-up of Scotland itself, with popular movements for Self-determination existing in Orkney and Shetland, which were historically part of Norway." Unreferenced not cited, and linking to a defunct political movement.

Others argue that as part of an unitary British state, Scotland has more influence on international affairs and diplomacy, both politically and militarily, as part of NATO, the G8 and as a permanent member of the UN Security Council. No reference unambigously stating this point.

I could go on.

Ironically a huge amount of the references of that section and the article come from The Scotsman, not exactly noted for its political impartiality. I haven't got time to clean it up right now, but it is becoming an essay and a pretty biased one at that. Cheers Globaltraveller (talk) 19:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

We should just chop all the crap, per WP:VERIFY and Wikipedia:Reliable sources and undue weight. Far better to have a clean, respectable, quality stub than a filthy long essay. Political topics, which are often highly disputed/disputable, should never be over-reliant on media sources. This article needs to be supported by weightier works. --Mais oui! (talk) 07:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not hugely up on the machinations of the various Wiki policies. There are some pretty obvious misleading unqualified statements within the section, but there are also others that are referenced by news articles that are based upon the machinations, arguments and opinions of political parties and political organisations, and there are other references that are nothing more than political party propaganda, for example:

Many Unionists have also contested claims by the SNP that Scotland currently underperforms economically, relative to other small countries in the region; such as Norway, Finland and Ireland which is referenced by this article:[4] Clearly not neutral neither does it quantify the statement "Many Unionists".

My take on WP:VERIFY, WP:RS, WP:UNDUE as well as WP:OR is that sources should techinically be "third party" and "independent" not the opinions of politicians, journalists or anybody else, otherwise Wikipedia would become nothing but a recepticle for the opinions of...well...everybody and everything. But I'm not really sure on all this bureaucracy. Globaltraveller (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• I agree there are problems with the article, but I don't think the first sentence is one of them. What's wrong with characterising Scottish independence as a 'separatist political ambition'? In what respect is separatism an inaccurate description? Terraxos (talk) 03:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

• • It is a technically accurate phrase, but in this context highly POV as the word has been used so frequently by opponents of the idea as a criticism. An explanation of this would not go amiss in the article, but to have it in the first sentence (and with no subsequent discussion) is out of order. I note your interest in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Comparisons of this kind may not be either accurate or fair, but it may be a little like inserting the word 'Zionist' into the lead of Israel. Whatever the truth of the assertion the result is likely to be inflammatory rather than educational - the reverse of which is my intention here. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 14:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Alright, fair enough. Although it can be used neutrally, I agree that 'separatism' has negative connotations, so perhaps should be avoided in the lead. It's entirely clear what 'Scottish independence' refers to even without it, anyway. Terraxos (talk) 16:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Edinburgh congestion charge

Hi all. This is an article I have expanded quite a bit from a short one on the road tolls referendum in 2005. I would appreciate others looking at it for accuracy and bias as I am not local and have found a wide range of sources more difficult to come by. Also, I think it could do with a map of the proposed cordons. Many thanks, Regan123 (talk) 19:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Jacobites

An enthusiastic anon (User talk:80.229.9.98) has carried out a series of edits to Jacobite rising and Jacobitism to make "corrections to a sometimes factually inaccurate account that used markedly Jacobite terminology in spite of the FACT of Britain's evolution into a *constitutional* monarchy after 1688." My own preference was for the previous terminology, some of the changes may be worthwhile, a few appear inaccurate. How do others feel? ... dave souza, talk 14:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the changes, far from improving the article, have added notes of stridency and hostility which were previously absent from the article. My own sympathies lie with the Hanoverians rather than the Jacobites yet I do not see the "pro-Jacobite" point of view which the anonymous editor takes objection to. I think that we should handle this in the same way that we dealt with changes by the Jacobite sympathisers a while ago. In other words basically keep what we originally had. -- Derek Ross | Talk 00:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Hej då!

For the first time ever since joining Wikipedia I have decided to take a Wikibreak. I am getting married on Monday, Hogmanay, and thereafter have a long holiday to look forward to. In addition, my old job was the type where you sit around and wait for things to go wrong, which they often did not, and that allowed me to spend an amazing amount of time around here. However, I have moved onwards and upwards on the career ladder too, which has slowly squeezed out my activities here, and on the various other language versions of Wikipedia to which I have periodically contributed.

I am inordinately proud of my record here at Wikipedia. I am probably only marginally less capable as a Wikipedia editor than I was as a blogger. I wish all well who wish Scotland well. Slàinte mhath! --Mais oui! (talk) 14:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations, Mais, don't overdo the pride, all the best for married life and your career! .. dave souza, talk 17:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Mais Oui!, all the best to you. I'm glad you're moving into a better and more fulfilling life. You will be missed sorely by most of us, though I'm sure one or two won't miss you (no names need be mentioned). Good luck with the marriage! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations indeed. If I knew your address I'd send a tandem. Have great break .... and haste ye back. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 21:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations, Mais Oui! We'll miss you, and welcome you back. Have a great break, wedding, honeymoon and holiday! Slàinte mhath! - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:40, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, good health and good luck to you! You've done some fine work on Wikipedia, of which setting up this noticeboard is just one example, and you deserve a break. But I hope that your new job (and your new wife) will allow you a little time to continue editing with us sooner rather than later. -- Derek Ross | Talk 00:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations, Mais Oui! I hope your wedding is great and wish you all the best. And I look forward to seeing you again when you return to editing, the wife permitting. Lurker (said · done) 14:39, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Larbert

I've significantly updated the Larbert article. Not the most exciting place in the world, I'd agree but I am considering submitting the article for Peer Review in the near future. However, before I do so, I'd be eternally grateful for anyone to have a read through pick up any schoolboy errors/spelling/prose/punctuation etc or to do a copyedit etc. Any advice on how to improve the article and constructive criticism would be gratefully received. Cheers Globaltraveller (talk) 15:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Pictish monarchs

Template:Pictish monarchs has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Michael Sanders has nominated for deletion the old Scottish Monarchs template. He has created in the last few minutes a Scottish monarchs template. See Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2008_January_3#Template:Scottish_Monarchs. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Hew Scott

A head up that a new article about Hew Scott, author of Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae, has been nominated for AfD. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 22:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Jamie Rennie

I would be grateful if a Scottish Wikipedian could have a look at this. For mine, the article doesn't establish notability and there are serious BLP concerns. I would like to nominate it for AfD but would appreciate views of Scottish Wikipedians as to the notability of this person. Capitalistroadster (talk) 19:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

This should probably be nominated for AfD, theres no real notability here. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 11:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Definite delete. No encyclopaedic info, and the information (quite particular) is not verifiable. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 11:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)

Scottish settlements have become an issue at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements) and Talk:Perth, Scotland (attempted moves to Perth, Perth and Kinross). Wide participation is sought. Regards. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 11:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Kirkcaldy

I see Kirkcaldy is already listed as Need attention/review. It is prone to well-intentioned but rather rambling edits, often of unclear meaning and dubious relevance, of overly minute detail, duplicating ground covered in related main articles, mis-spellings, odd phrasings, occasional POV, reliance on one source for citations and bizarre and detailed situational information (e.g. "...(now the site of a peclain crossing between Hill Street and Kirk Wynd)". I usually keep an eye on it to try and hold back the tide a bit but, due to travel for work over the last 3 weeks, I have had either very limited internet access or none at all. In this period there has been a huge mushrooming in edits such as described and, short of just reverting everything to the position of 3 weeks ago, I can't do much about it currently or probably at least the next couple of weeks either. Can somebody take a crack at this, maybe even a more extensive overhaul of the article? Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The Duke of sutherland

The article George Leveson-Gower, 1st Duke of Sutherland doesn't mention the Highland Clearances. At all. Given that this is somewhat akin to an article about Osama bin Laden not mentioning 9/11, I think some input by people with a knowledge of history would be a good idea here. Lurker (said · done) 19:44, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree... There was an article on Augustus Smith, which didn't mention how he cleared out many people from Scilly... I changed it from hagiography to a list of the things he did.--MacRusgail (talk) 22:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I've noticed that articles on members of the UK peerage tend towards the hagiographical. They read like Debrett's Peerage, rather than encyclopedia entries. This seems to be an example of systemic bias in the topic in general, rather than an isolated problem. Lurker (said · done) 11:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

That's because they probably do come from there!!! Same with that wretched Dame of Sark, who everyone thinks was some kind of benevolent dictator who restricted the use of cars. She actually seems to have been a nasty piece of work, and talked as if her family had been in Sark since 1066, amongst inventing other lies about her family's history. When I was writing the article on Ulva, I found that the island's official guidebook was a little too apologetic for FW Clark's actions, who by all accounts was also a nasty piece of work, since he didn't even get factors to do the clearing. Also, if you go to Dunvegan Castle, you get a video of what's-his-name telling you how you can "feel the kinship" (translation: "Americans give us your money"), and how his ancestors tried to prevent the Clearances. That's revisionism if ever there was some. --MacRusgail (talk) 15:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC) p.s. Did I mention that the lovely Dame of Sark was also mentioned in intelligence reports as a Nazi collaborator? p.p.s. Augustus Smith (of Scilly) is in the category "British Philanthropists" as well - beggars belief!

Need to Cover Mining

I see no real mention anywhere of coal mining. It is certainly "Directly Scotland-related". It played a significant role in Scotland, and merits inclusion in various articles, and perhaps as an article of its own. The topic doesn't have any romance to it, to say the least, but it was a VERY important part of industry, the economy, Scottish history, the places where there were mines, and the lives of many Scots. If the topic is new, some good starting point references are:

Scottish Mining - start off with "Coalfields" and "Maps" to see where it applies; then his "History" for an introduction to the topic.

Ayrshire Miner's Rows 1913 - descriptions of the many rows that were built in the 19th century, and leaving a strong impression of a mining family's life.

Scottish Mining Villages - another good site.

Coal Mining History Resource Center - covering the UK, including Scotland.

This topic is relevant to articles that do not exist in Wikipedia, but are relevant to Scotland (the Scottish Habeas Corpus Act of 1701, the custom of arling, a 1775 act relevant to servitude, a 1799 act specifically mentioning servitude, the labor conditions of the 19th century, the 1842 Royal Commission Reports, etc). Coal fields were a draw to Irish immigrants, and to Highlanders forced to leave their homes. Also, miners were well-represented among Scottish emigrants. Related topics also not covered in Wikipedia are saltpanning, where saltpanners had a status similar to that of miners. Other and later mining is also relevant to Scotland (eg, ironstone mining). 24.178.228.14 (talk) 20:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi there - you have some good ideas and useful resources (and know what you are talking about). Doing a quick check it does seem that there is very little coverage of mining in Scotland, no insignificant subject given the part it played in the Industrial Revolution and onwards into the modern era. I would encourage you to Be Bold and work on it if you have the time, you certainly have a knowledge of the subject! SFC9394 (talk) 20:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello SFC9394, thank you for the kind words and encouragement. It's an ambitious undertaking for a newcomer, with consequences that percolate into other articles (Scotland-related and otherwise). My access to good primary sources is limited (because I color things gray, whereas you might colour things grey). The lack of existing articles on this and similar topics, whatever the significance of those topics, does not imply great interest, so it likely would be a lonely (though self-satisfying) journey. Some areas can be tendentious (anything touching on historical labor conditions, such as child labor or an implication of slavery or serfdom). I'm thinking it over; I'd like to see the articles in Wikipedia, but I'm not sure I have the time and energy (I already think that I posted the original note in a reprehensible attempt to have it both ways). Regards, 24.178.228.14 (talk) 19:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I too would encourage you to jump in. Even if you can make a start with some outlines, or just fleshing out existing articles (Economy of Scotland and History of Scotland, for instance, which barely mention mining) it would fill an apparent gap. You might indeed find it lonely - looking around it seems no-one here really works in that vein (pardon the pun). But its worth it if you can add some useful information. Happy editing, and if you need any wiki-help just ask. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 10:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Nairn

Just to say i went ahead and split this article. Can someone correct the links so they now go to Nairn (council area) and Nairn, Scotland? Simply south (talk) 02:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I think Nairn (the town) is by far the primary topic in this case, and what most people will be looking for when they type in Nairn. So the article about the town should be at Nairn, with a disambig note at the top linking to an article about the area. Also, Nairn (council area) is inaccurate and misleading - the town of Nairn is in the Highland council area. I suggest moving that article to Nairn (district) or Nairn (ward) or just Nairn (area) or similar. --Vclaw (talk) 02:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Simply south, this was not a good thing to do. Where was the notification that you were going to "split" this article? This "council area" is based on and popularly equivalent to Nairnshire, and otherwise virtually unused. Hundreds of articles that pointed to the the town of Nairn now point at a dab page. I'd revert your edits, but your work is now irreversible without admin intervention. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I made a notice of a possible split on the talk page of Nairn (now Talk:Nairn (local government)) as well as on the main project talk page. These have been up for the past 4-5 days. I forgot about this area until later. Simply south (talk) 15:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Quite agree that Nairn is the primary topic and that Nairn (council area) is not on. Perhaps the latter should be merged with Nairnshire? Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 08:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate noticeboard?

I confess that I have never really understood the difference between this page and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scotland and I notice that quite often announcements are posted in both places. Is there any reason why Talk:WPSCO could not simply be a re-direct here (or vice versa)? Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 08:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

As no-one seems to have any objections I will archive the rest of this page and create it as a re-direct to Talk:WPSCO soon. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 22:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation of Inverness

The Inverness article has been moved, previously to Inverness (city) - which I then provisionally corrected to Inverness, Highland. I disagree with the move, and have started a discussion on the Inverness talk page if anyone is interested in offering a viewpoint. Regards.--Breadandcheese (talk) 15:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I've been creating stubs about villages and hamlets

I've made ten today alone, although none of them have more than rudimentary information. I've been using the school of thought that if a settlement is mentioned in the Gazetteer for Scotland, Wikipedia can have an article on it, otherwise, it cannot. Is this the right way to go about this?--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 16:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm basically sitting here with an Ordnance Survey map and filling in basic details for villages in a certain area that we don't have articles about. I have doubts about the potential for expansion of some of them though.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 16:46, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

In my view you are right to be cautious. Users with a copy of the OS gazetteer have created various articles about 'villages' that turn out to be quite spurious e.g. Hilton, Biruaslum etc. I imagine the Gazetteer for Scotland may be less prone to this but it is definitely worth checking the OS map to ensure its a settlement of note, or indeed a settlement at all. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 17:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. There are many features identified on Ordnance Survey maps that could never be the subjects of Wikipedia articles. I'm focusing on villages and hamlets in Aberdeenshire we don't have articles on. Also, there's a location called Temple of Fiddes that has a huge sign and an Ordnance Survey map mention yet doesn't seem to exist in any sense. Maybe it just refers to the local area. But where's this 'temple'? Misleading name, anyway.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 17:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, well I made 14 new stubs in total today, and I don't think I can be bothered doing any more right now.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 18:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:UKNATIONALS

Following from an extended discussion at "Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)" on how people from the United Kingdom should be described ("British", or "English", "[Northern] Irish", "Scottish" or "Welsh"), which did not result in consensus, an essay entitled "Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom" (WP:UKNATIONALS) has been prepared. You're welcome to provide your comments on how it can be improved at the talk page of "Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)". — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 16:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)