Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom

Calendar: current deadline is highlighted, and current UTC date is 2024-10-30 19:32:25.
September 2024 Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun 26 27 28 29 30 31 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 01 02 03 04 05 06	October 2024 Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun 30 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 01 02 03	November 2024 Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun 28 29 30 31 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 01

The Signpost currently has 5601 articles, 701 issues, and 13656 pages (4455 talk and 9201 non-talk).

Current issue: Volume 20, Issue 14 (2024-10-19) ·

issue page · archive page · single-page edition · single-page talk (create)

Articles and pageviews for 2024-10-19

Pageviews for 2024-10-19 (V) Subpage Title 7-day 15-day 30-day 60-day 90-day 120-day 180-day Traffic report A scream breaks the still of the night 445 479 479 479 479 479 479 Recent research "As many as 5%" of new English Wikipedia articles "contain significant AI-generated content", says paper 2514 2632 2632 2632 2632 2632 2632 News and notes One election's end, another election's beginning 1834 1910 1910 1910 1910 1910 1910 In the media Off to the races! Wikipedia wins! 1759 1807 1807 1807 1807 1807 1807 Humour The Newspaper Editors 2939 3009 3009 3009 3009 3009 3009 Crossword Spilled Coffee Mug 424 471 471 471 471 471 471 Contest A WikiCup for the underdeveloped world 1713 1736 1736 1736 1736 1736 1736 Book review The Editors 1242 1276 1276 1276 1276 1276 1276

Previous issue: 2024-09-26 · issue page · archive page · single-page edition · single-page talk

Articles and pageviews for 2024-09-26

Pageviews for 2024-09-26 (V) Subpage Title 7-day 15-day 30-day 60-day 90-day 120-day 180-day Community view Indian courts order Wikipedia to take down name of crime victim, editors strive towards consensus 3693 4043 4350 4356 4356 4356 4356 Traffic report Jump in the line, rock your body in time 619 803 986 989 989 989 989 Serendipity A Wikipedian at the 2024 Paralympics 1946 2162 2447 2455 2455 2455 2455 Recent research Article-writing AI is less "prone to reasoning errors (or hallucinations)" than human Wikipedia editors 1956 2274 2515 2527 2527 2527 2527 Opinion asilvering's RfA debriefing 2129 2327 2479 2490 2490 2490 2490 News and notes Are you ready for admin elections? 821 1001 1219 1228 1228 1228 1228 In the media Courts order Wikipedia to give up names of editors, legal strain anticipated from "online safety laws" 2043 2790 3552 3569 3569 3569 3569 Gallery Are Luddaites defending the English Wikipedia? 5287 5729 6145 6157 6157 6157 6157

20:14 News and notes

I just wanted to let you know that João Alexandre Peschanski, the executive director of the Wiki Movement Brazil User Group, has co-signed a collective op-ed involving more than 150 international researchers and calling for more support and protection to those who study disinformation and its perceived impact on public opinion.

Do you think this might be notable enough for N&N, or should we just mention it on the ITM column? Oltrepier (talk) 19:48, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Seems more fitting in News and notes than ITM to me, given that it isn't really originating from a news outlet. Jonatan Svensson Glad (talk) 19:56, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Administrator elections

Enforcing "no declarations of support or opposition"

Each candidate's page has this notice:

I'm wondering how this will be enforced, and if we should mention either the notice, or the intended enforcement, at this issue's News and notes? ☆ Bri (talk) 03:26, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Election guides

I suppose we aren't going to link to election guides prepared by members of the community, but thought I'd throw it out there for discussion. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Barnstar

graphic created for AELECT barnstar

Maybe worth a mention? Maybe afterwards? ☆ Bri (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bri Yes, we could write about those afterwards! Oltrepier (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Probably not worth a mention, but

I thought this video [1] was a little funny since he's showing how to avoid the sponsored links from his own newsorg. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:54, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång Well, ITM is never too tight for this kind of news! : ) Oltrepier (talk) 20:04, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

20:14 looks kind of light

Only four columns have been started, and we are about 76 hours from our writing deadline. Just putting this out there in case more starts are on the way. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:07, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bri: I didn't come across your own thread, so sorry for that... I've also noticed that the upcoming issue is currently a bit thin on contributions, and the main columns (especially N&N) still need a lot of work.

Maybe we could postpone the deadline to two-three days later, so we could solve these issues without having to rush it.

@JPxG: How do you feel about it? Oltrepier (talk) 20:08, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh wow we posted 1 minute apart! Was it an edit conflict? Great minds think alike. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:15, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bri I don't really see myself as a "great mind", especially after my mistake, but this is definitely astounding! : D Oltrepier (talk) 19:28, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

20:14 In the media

Signatures at the In brief section

I noticed this month several bulleted items at In brief have writer's signatures. It doesn't particularly bother me, but to my recollection we don't think we usually do it that way. Should they be retained, and if so, should we add them to the remainder of the items? ☆ Bri (talk) 23:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I added them, since it was the practice the last few times I was a co-writer (see User:Josve05a/The Signpost). Sorry if not the standard any more - feel free to remove if that would be better. Jonatan Svensson Glad (talk) 05:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bri @Josve05a Sorry, I'm reading this just now, but I wanted to let you know that I've boldly removed any signature from the section. Oltrepier (talk) 16:46, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

"Under the radar"

I found this great illustration of literal "under the radar" flight, but decided not to use it becuase considering the background of world events, maybe we want to un-link this commentary from literal military activities. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Plagiarism in 2009 book

I added some brief coverage of that new plagiarism case. This could still benefit from some more detail; perhaps we can add a bit of Wikipedia-specific perspective to the general news media reporting on the issue. Regards, HaeB (talk) 14:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

This is a very important item and I'm glad you included it. The Wikipedia plagiarism specifically is now mentioned at The Telegraph, The Times of India and other first-tier international newspapers, as well as US cable news media. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:14, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Might be worth including plagiarism today's fuller analysis, seeing as this was the dude quoted by NYT and he describes that the NYT had not given all the passages over. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 13:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Updated, thanks. Regards, HaeB (talk) 18:27, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

gone for 1.5 days

I'll be out of touch for most of the next 2 days. @JPxG: don't forget the book reviews! 18:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC) Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

In the media warning (Google News glitch)

A couple of times now I've added items to In the media, that were not recent. They popped up in Google News tagged as recent: in the latest case, Google News said a nine year old item was from 2 days ago. Just a caution to others not to get caught by this like I was. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Google News has been completely cooked the last couple years or so. They have been messing with it for unclear reasons -- if you search for a string with quotation marks in it, it will now just start returning completely random dog shit: blogs, tiktoks, facebook posts, formatted like news sites. Their documentation gives no explanation for this other than the implied "get bent". I basically stopped writing articles about recent events because it's been made unusable, although it is not as bad now as it was a year or two ago (some genius decided that it should just return tiktoks for every search whatsoever). jp×g🗯️ 20:22, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

20:14

Setting this forward -- I have some stuff from WCNA and am contemplating an interview/letter. jp×g🗯️ 14:23, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been away from my computer with IRL stuff. Another book review has been submitted, so I think we should publish them in the in the 'Book review' column with the earliest on top. I can write a humor piece that pokes fun at how we've mentioned this book in every of the past few issues. To make it clear, I support the book reviews being published, so the humor column will be self-deprecating. Does anybody have objections? Svampesky (talk) 16:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

@Svampesky Sounds good!

By the way, sorry for my very limited contributions this time around... Oltrepier (talk) 09:11, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Forward again to be on the safe side rather than over publication deadline. jp×g🗯️ 23:46, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for keeping the deadline updated. We have been running a bit late with the preparations for RR, but I should have some time later today to get it in a publishable form before the deadline. I see there is also work still to do in N&N and ITM - I might be able to pitch in there too, but probably not before the deadline. Regards, HaeB (talk) 17:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Who wrote the bit about the latest WikiConference North America over at ITM? Somebody forgot to add their signature, but I couldn't find any information from the talk page...

@Bri @HaeB @Josve05a @Gråbergs Gråa Sång @Robertsky Oltrepier (talk) 16:48, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Found it [2], added attribution to @Smallbones. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Help copyediting?

Spamming everyone listed as copyeditors on our staff page, @Gerald Waldo Luis, Headbomb, Isaacl, and Adam Cuerden: – both In the media and News and notes still need to be signed off, if you can help. Thanks! ☆ Bri (talk) 00:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

There is a late submission, and a bunch of stuff still needing to get done; I have somewhere to be tonight, so I guess I will just put the damn thing forward another day. jp×g🗯️ 01:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

😿 jp×g🗯️ 02:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bri @JPxG Just so you know, I've managed to go through both ITM and N&N and do some more copy-editing myself: I hope this makes up for my deeply underwhelming contributions this time around...

On a side note, I must say I'm impressed with how the In the media column has turned out: it sounds like a very rich and interesting read! Oltrepier (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Oltrepier! Just to clarify for others reading along who might be inclined to help out too: Both ITM and N&N are still not yet marked as copyedited - see the Article status list - and (more importantly) still contain several open to-do items, look for the yellow markings. (I resolved one in N&N while also correcting a mistake, and may be able to help out with more, but will focus on getting RR publishable first.) Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I removed the outstanding highligted to-dos in News and notes and it is ready for (another?) copyedit. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, things are shaping up a little better, I will have another go at it shortly. jp×g🗯️ 19:18, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Probably idiotic disclosure

I started an article on The Editors, duly logged with my other September creations, and it got deleted. IMHO this has nothing to do with anything, but there it is on the record. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:06, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

20:14 Recent research

As usual, we are preparing this regular survey on recent academic research about Wikipedia, doubling as the Wikimedia Research Newsletter (now in its fourteenth year). Help is welcome to review or summarize the many interesting items listed here, as are suggestions of other new research papers that haven't been covered yet. Regards, HaeB (talk) 16:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I think this missed the writing deadline, in fact it is now 3 hours past the publishing deadline. ☆ Bri (talk) 03:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, the paper I was writing up during the time I had earlier today turned out to be a bit trickier to review than expected. I'm back at this now, but am also not offended if the issue goes out without it in the meantime. (That said, several other sections also still look unfinished at this point or are at least marked as needing copyedits.)

Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Is there somewhere the intermediate versions of the column are kept? It may help things out for others to be able to contribute to it during the writing process. jp×g🗯️ 01:58, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Not sure this is what you mean, but the Etherpad has starting ideas and can be used for drafting. ☆ Bri (talk) 05:18, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, I always post the Etherpad link here inviting people to contribute, which also helps to keep track of which papers are being worked on (and which are not). As for posting partial drafts and unfinished notes on-wiki, we don't do that for most other Signpost stories either, and I'm generally unconvinced that it would speed up the process (in fact it might well slow it down). That said, I did in fact post an intermediate version yesterday after seeing JPxG's question (and knowing that I would not be able to resume work on it for a bit), with remaining to-do items marked - but except for one typo fix (thanks Smallbones!) this doesn't seem to have had an effect. (Btw for context about this particular review and its timing: This is about a very recent paper which I had tweeted about on Monday based on a quick skim only - as we usually do on the WikiResearch feed -, and which has received quite a bit of attention since, e.g. [3]. After reading the paper more fully, I think it would be valuable for us to provide timely context in form of a full review; in the "Wikimedia AI" Telegram group, folks raised questions about the paper's results too.)

I'm back at this now and should have RR publishable within less than two hours from now.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 00:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

A book that plagiarized Wikipedia

Hi fellows. I think that this book chapter deserves a mention in Signpost. Its available from WPLibrary. I tried to summarize the findings from chapter 4, that deals with our entries. Learn about it after this excerpt in Retraction Watch: "A look at plagiarism at the Pontifical Gregorian University".

• A recent book by Brill Publishers on research integrity reports several plagiarism cases in publications by Pontifical Gregorian University. Entitled “Shake-and-Paste Plagiarism from Internet Sources”, Dougherty's chapter four analyzes a 2012 book about Zera Yacob that, without attribution, copied and mixed texts from our 2010 versions of Philosophical methodology, Dialectic, Nature and Nature (philosophy). (p.181)

References

Cheers! Ixocactus (talk) 22:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

20:14 Contest

The article contains a big pile of MOS:FLAGRELEVANCE violations. However a) I know that The Signpost doesn't necessarily follow formatting rules employed in the rest the encyclopedia article space and b) I might be going out on a limb already in aggressively addressing this in beauty pageant articles so I will stop with this comment. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:24, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

thank you @Bri & @Smallbones for helping copyedit. that section of the article is a copy-paste of a talk page comment not written by me, and i have no opinion on whether the flagicons stay or go - it's not in mainspace, so i think it's up to our preference more than anything in the MOS. courtesy pinging @GreenLipstickLesbian in case she has any thoughts. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 21:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Good title and image? I'll try but please replace as needed. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:38, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Ready when you are!

"Tourists taking photos of a horse's ass at Rievaulx Terrace, Yorkshire" would have made a good Humour illustration.

@HaeB, JPxG, and Bri: With a few exceptions, I think this issue is ready to go!

• HaeB, I know you want to complete Recent research, but your review is pretty good already.
• JxPG The tripartite book review needs to be copyedited (bottom 2 reviews only IMHO). Also we need to let the reader know that 3 reviews are coming about the same book. Otherwise they might be surprised. So a Simple 3 line editor's introduction up top would be enough, explaining why we have 3 reviews (without overwhelming the reader). Yeah, there might be a few things with pics, titles, etc.
• Bri Just 'cause I always ping you when something needs to get done.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 22:56, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

taking a nap and waiting on a final submission and will then be ready jp×g🗯️ 07:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I think you need to hold up publication for a bit and reconsider. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:30, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

oh? D: ... sawyer * he/they * talk 15:38, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Because of humour, or something else? I got part way through the book review copyedit but didn't finish. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I've been drafting it off-wiki with JPxG's approval to make sure everything is appropriate and kept general. Svampesky (talk) 15:45, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bri @JPxG @Smallbones I've managed to go through the Book review column, hopefully it helps! Oltrepier (talk) 20:02, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood what this was in response to. I wasn't aware of any reasons to object to the humor column. My Yes was based on thinking that Because of humour, or something else? was a response to JPxG's waiting on a final submission. Per the request of JPxG, it was reviewed offline to determine if it was suitable for hosting on Wikipedia and publishing in The Signpost. I haven't been communicated any reasons to not run it.

The joke is that it's in the style of an opinion piece from the misinformed-view that The Signpost must adhere to mainspace article policy and guidelines; published in The Signpost, lambasting The Signpost. What's the issue with this? Svampesky (talk) 16:00, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

It's now over two days since that nap began, and over six days since the originally planned publication deadline. Regards, HaeB (talk) 10:08, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

20:14 Humour

@JPxG, Svampesky, Bri, HaeB, and Jayen466: Until the last edit at "Humour" the main issue was that it is not funny, there's no humour in it. Please see this essay that's linked to our Humour resources here. It's not humour mainly because it's just whingeing. There's no surprise or misdirection. Just constant complaint. Not funny! Other important issues with it are supposedly linking to research papers which are not there and impugning the honesty and credibility of The Signpost and all its staff. We have a reputation to protect and having a staff member write that The Signpost is total garbage is the exact opposite of what we want to do.

There's another issue that goes beyond that: you've continued to edit the "humour" after publication without checking with anybody here and just making things much worse. Before adding to an article - it's not just copy editing - at a minimum you need to get JPxG's approval. Everything that's published must be approved by the editor-in-chief. The additions just look like provocations. The worst by far is that last edit. It looks like you are accusing me and others of paid editing. Anybody who wants to accuse me of paid editing, can make that accusation where I can be expected to see it, say it to my face. And then I can give you a proper response.

I'll suggest that somebody should delete that last line until JPxG can decide what he wants to do, then we should not respond, either here or at the article talk but just leave that garbage alone, only reverting future edits to it. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:24, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I've speedily removed that line. The line was added by JPxG at Special:Diff/1252023940. The reason I changed the word 'docked' to 'deduced' at Special:Diff/1252273371 is because the word 'docked' is a close-homophone to 'doxxed'. Svampesky (talk) 17:41, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

i think the word you were looking for is "reduced"; to deduce is "to arrive at (a fact or a conclusion) by reasoning; draw as a logical conclusion." (Oxford) ... sawyer * he/they * talk 17:46, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

The word I meant to use was 'deducted'. So I apologize for any implications that my error caused. Svampesky (talk) 17:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Other than my error (changing a word on a line that was added by JPxG), I don't see the any issue with the content. In fact, a commenter on the book review column (Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2024-10-19/Book review) actually agrees with sentiments of the humor column, that The Signpost has launched an "outrageous promotional campaign" for this book. Svampesky (talk) 17:58, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

If so, then I don't think the Signpost humour column is the right place to critique that. Andreas JN466 17:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

"No ping" template

Some of us are using Template:No ping in articles whenever mentioning and linking a user's account, in order to prevent the user being pinged. Note that this is not necessary: the notification system is only triggered by signed posts (i.e., signed using the four tildes). See Template:No ping#Purpose and WP:Ping. Best, Andreas JN466 11:08, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I have to be honest and say I don't actually know when or how it was decided that we should use the noping templates. It doesn't seem like a very good idea (indeed, I haven't used them in a very long time). If we're writing about someone, if anything, we ought to go out of our way to ping them so they can see it. If they have anything to say, at least in my experience, every time it is to make a correction and say "actually that was on the 12th not the 13th" or something of that nature. A couple months ago there was a brief discussion on this topic, I believe because Piotrus had been mentioned in some article and said he'd have preferred a ping when it was being drafted -- this was when I found out that just linking a username in an edit didn't ping, only if you signed it... jp×g🗯️ 09:13, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

About when "noping" began. I don't know, except that when I started as E-i-C it was one of the first strange things I noticed. Strange to me - that is. I starting out wondering what the verb nope-ing meant. It took me about 15 minutes to figure out what it is, and most of what it doesn't do. In any case it was here in spades, and I figured "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but be consistent about it.

Something else similar - I noticed then that some people used "The Signpost" and some used the "Signpost". I didn't have time to get into an argument about it, so I decided I'd use "The Signpost" for myself wherever it was comfortable to use until I could decide. It would be easier to switch to "Signpost" from "The Signpost" than vice versa. It became quite comfortable after 2 or 3 months. End of my knowledge of copy editing history.

I almost forgot JPxG, Jayen466, HaeB and Bri

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:12, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Two issues a) I think it's good practice to use the full name of The Signpost at least on first mention b) I don't see why using {{noping}} is an issue. At worst it's unnecessary, but harmless. I use it myself while I'm typing so I can clear a mental flag "do I need to remember whether or not I'm signing what I'm writing right now", because I often don't want to ping editors in other contexts such as sockpuppet investigations. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:25, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

WMF office action for Delhi Court

notice that the Wikimedia Foundation has removed access to a lawsuit

I started the article at Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Next_issue/News_and_notes.

I invited existing editors to contribute at Talk:Asian_News_International#Lawsuit_article_removed.

Bluerasberry (talk) 14:52, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Here's an article from The Hindu. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:15, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, that quote about OFFICE actions from The Hindu is clearly not factual for our history. Most such actions involve blanking the related article while the issue is resolved. I remember the same thing being done with Choose Your Own Adventure thirteen years ago (and many of us being really irate about it). Silverseren^C 17:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'll admit I didn't follow this case as closely as I might have. I don't understand why the lawsuit article is blocked but the article about the corporation is not. Surely the allegedly defamatory information is in the alleged bad acts such as Asian News International#Propaganda and #Misinformation. No? ☆ Bri (talk) 15:17, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bri: I interact off-wiki with many professionals in online media, including university faculty, lawyers, and software developers. When I talk with Wikipedia editors, the editors are often surprised when I say that highly trained and experienced Internet professionals have difficulty understanding the difference between a platform (like YouTube, Instagram, or Wikipedia) and its user community (like YouTubers, Instagrammers, or Wikipedians). Based on what I have read in the media, the court's public statements express a lack of awareness between these two, which I feel is a totally normal misunderstanding, although the lack of distinction is strange to Wikipedians. I think the court presumes that the Wikimedia Foundation's staff journalists wrote this article, and again, I think that is a very typical perspective which would be common in the courts of any country. Bluerasberry (talk) 15:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Just reading a bit about this in the press now. I think we should consider running a special issue just for this, as historic government control of enwp contents and our community process itself. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:22, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

a special issue seems like a good idea - people have been talking about this quite a lot and it stirs up a ton of opinions. it would also then get its own comments section, which i think would also be beneficial ... sawyer * he/they * talk 15:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

For speculative reasons, we should be prepared to do this one with JPxG's alternative publication methodology. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd suggest publishing offwiki somehow, give the office action. I'd assume the office action will be applied broadly, and cover the Signpost as well - causing even the Signpost to be censored perhaps. Jonatan Svensson Glad (talk) 17:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

We have nothing which suggests that the office action will be applied broadly, note that it has not been applied to Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF) or any other page. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:17, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

The same logic applies, though, and as soon as the court notices the other conversations they could issue an identical demand, and the WMF would be likely to make the identical response. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree, I think its very unlikelely that the WMF will nuke the (by my count) nearly 100 pages (and growing by the hour) with content related to the case... And we both know how wikipedia works, more and more coverage just means it gets included on more and more pages until Wikipedia and India themselves get nuked... You can't fight NPOV across the system, just look at all the coverage we already have from just the one page removal[4][5][6][7]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

You can't apply precedent to a situation that is unprecedented. This is literally the first time that WMF has blanked a page at a government's demand. At this time IMO we're just assuming that the court remains technically inept at enforcing their own contempt orders (like this other editor said). ☆ Bri (talk) 17:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe that it is, but the discussion in which people listed precedents (which I believe were all either pre-2020 or on other language wikis... There was a French pornography house) was I think on the now vanished talk page. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:47, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

• Pppery listed a list of office actions for en-wiki on their t/p; it might be useful. Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 18:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

fr.wiki OAs

In 2024, WMF also took two content-related OAs at fr.wiki. fr:Wikipédia:Legifer/juin 2024#Suite concernant les deux suppressions juridiques effectuées par la Fondation Wikimedia sur fr-WP is WMF's statement; I found it interesting because it seemed like an unprecedentedly detailed intervention (not attributing any negative motives, though; it's perhaps helpful) by WMF into content, going to the extent of suggesting how the community ought to write articles, deal with COI requests, etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:59, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I wish they had posted the original in English, which was machine translated to French and posted. Because now I'm reading a machine translation back to English, which ain't good. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Did they actually remove the articles in those cases? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Censorship / publishing restrictions on The Signpost

There are currently no publishing restrictions on The Signpost and I have no reason to believe that there will be. However, the Wikimedia community is discussing the possibility of such a thing happening.

The Wikimedia Foundation has restricted Wikipedia from publishing an article about the lawsuit. Questions:

1. To what extent does the Wikimedia Foundation restrict The Signpost from publishing journalism about the lawsuit?
2. To what extent does the Wikimedia Foundation restrict Wikimedia community discussion in the Wikimedia platform about the lawsuit?

I anticipate that the answer to both of those is "not all all, and the Wikimedia Foundation encourages the Wikimedia community to set its own ethical and social governance principles", but because the issue is being raised, I wrote to WMF legal yesterday asking for clarification. I woke up this morning thinking more that it would be better to share that I asked the question at all.

If need be, The Signpost team can migrate the publication off-wiki to an independent platform, and the Wikimedia community can practice independent journalism. Right now there is no reason to do this, as the Wikimedia Foundation has always protected and encouraged The Signpost's community journalism. If anyone ever feels a Wikimedia Foundation restriction on The Signpost, then please call it out and share it, but personally, I have never felt anything but support. (Aside, I always have wished for more WMF transparency and access to information as it is challenging for journalists to get access to information, but I do not see journalist restriction on journalist values.)

As stated above, JPxG has an alternative publication methodology planned for The Signpost. I hope that there is no need to migrate off-wiki. I really do not want to encounter any friction with WMF legal efforts in India, which I support. I believe that the WMF legal team completely supports The Signpost mission. I simply am unsure of what the lawsuit means for Signpost journalistic freedom.

Thanks @Elli, Bri, Josve05a, Sawyer777, TrangaBellam, Horse Eye's Back, and Silver seren: for commenting on this issue. Please remain present. Let's all support free journalism, the WMF legal team, and Wikimedia community ethics and values. I am sure that none of these are in conflict, but sometimes it happens that legal teams are under pressure to make odd requests. Bluerasberry (talk) 13:25, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Proceed with routine journalism Right now this is my recommendation. JPxG as editor-in-chief may share their views. The Signpost organizes Wikipedia volunteer editors to produce and publish journalism. Right now, please help to recruit more contributors to produce journalism in any of the suggested format types listed at Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom. If you need assistance, then please message here. It would be very helpful to have multiple diverse Wikimedia community perspectives, including journalism reporting facts, opinions and editorials, reviews of comparable situations, and statements of our values.

If anyone needs editorial support then you can message here, email me, or also connect with me to talk by voice or video to get you started. Thanks. Bluerasberry (talk) 16:48, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bluerasberry: I saw your very rough draft at from the editor (next issue) and I disagree with some of it. First we should realize that we are NOT a newsletter! The connotation of a newsletter is something planned by some boss to get out the organization's semi-official news out, organized by the boss's secretary who farms out the writing assignments to the officially trusted folks who will give the official story in a down-home folksy manner. That's not us, we're newspaper. We've been a newspaper since the 2nd paragraph of the 1st issue (right after Welcome!) Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2005-01-10/From the editor

"The name, The Wikipedia Signpost, was chosen to be like the name of a newspaper, since a newspaper is what I would call this project. Though it will almost certainly never appear on newsprint paper, it will nevertheless take on this role for our community. It should have some resemblance to the other newspapers you may happen to read in the course of your life (which I venture to guess many of you read online anyway, rather than the paper copy)."

So let's call it what it is: a newspaper.

There's also the material about nobody ever trying to censor us. Unfortunately there used to be something of a minor tradition of admins or other bigwigs coming into the newsroom and telling us what we should or could or couldn't publish. I've even seen cases of pre-publication censorship (I won't be able to link to most of these but see Itm in late December 2020 for one). It's not the WMF who did this, though I've seen a mild suggestion or two and one expression telling me they thought I was flat out wrong (all fair enough). We're an independent newspaper so I think the E-i-C's job on this is to start out trying to smooth out ruffled feathers at first, while gently showing the intruders the door, but vigorously defending the journalists' right to publish what they and the E-i-C think is proper. It's not that we are above WP rules, just like any journalists we have to follow the law of the community we live in, but that we don't have to follow the whims of the bigwigs, nor meet special requirements made up just for us.

I think of The Signpost as being something like a small town newspaper, with say a target audience of about 3,000 people, all living near a major amusement park, where most of them work, located just off the exit of the main branch of the information superhighway. We may not know all the inhabitants, but we almost surely know somebody who knows somebody who knows anybody we can name. Our "police reporter" (if we had one) might have a brother or a couple of uncles on the force, so we can't be purely objective on every story, but bringing in outsiders who don't know the town wouldn't work too well either. We just do the best job we can, and call 'em as we see 'em..

What does this have to do with Indian courts? Well, sometimes strangers wander into town and don't know our small town customs, but we should make an effort to AGF. We don't have to follow what the state governor (initials W.M.F.) says we should do, but at least in the short term they may be in a better place to handle it. Moving our printing press out of town might not help much, and would probably just put us in the same position as those woeful people who tried that a decade ago. It's better IMHO that we stay in the community to try to serve it, rather than just hurl insults and try to tell the townfolks what to do. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 01:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

All of the stuff I said at the VPWMF thread, plus this, basically, jp×g🗯️ 17:20, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

"we are NOT a newsletter"

We ARE a newsletter (i.e. a small publication focusing mainly on the activities of an organization and its members [8]). That doesn't mean we cannot also have journalistic aspects or that we don't deal in objective reporting, or that we should be censored or that we aren't editorially independent or whatever. The connotation Smallbones wants newsletters to have is his own projection. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

This is tough. On the one side I want to support independent discussion and the integrity of The Signpost. On the other hand, a lot of the discussion I see at VP could quickly become essentially bear-baiting. It feels like going around in the dark without knowing what the repercussions are of continuing to discuss the court when they have ordered us not to. And part of what's tough is I don't feel individually compelled to follow the Indian court, but there is potential blowback to the Wikimedia movement, which I am part of and care about. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Smallbones: Please edit. I was just drafting content, because we need a statement. I do not need that "from the editor" piece in my voice, but we do need such a piece. Now is the time to define this publication, so let's be a newspaper. Bluerasberry (talk) 01:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I don't think my thoughts just above @Bluerasberry:'s should replace his, but it was good getting a few things off my chest. But the tone of my comments would not be good for the "from the editor" article he started. The point is that we can and should maintain "The Signpost's" independence, but we can wait if we want before taking a step that might upset the whole apple cart. Ultimately that decision will be made by Signpost staff, with JPxG having the final decision. There's no point doing something that could cutoff Wikipedia's 3rd largest national group of readers (Indian) from Wikipedia access. It's no secret right now what's going on. Patience can be a good strategy. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I say we publish as normal. If WMF Office blanks the page, we still have The Signpost mirror. This is very different from pages deleted/blanked by community consensus, or pieces formally retracted. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

• Quote from Primefac, probably relevant. SerialNumber54129 10:54, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for the consideration, but the Signpost team and the functionaries are all grown adults, so if we all decide we feel like rolling around wrestling in the mud, I think we are capable of arranging the event on our own. jp×g🗯️ 17:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

• Quote from Jimbo. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

  Wow, something reasonable that takes into account all perspectives -- I can see why people demand this guy be gone. jp×g🗯️ 17:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested copy of article

• Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Request_copy_of_WMF-office_protected_page

Bluerasberry (talk) 14:03, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

It is archived on e.g. archive.is Jonatan Svensson Glad (talk) 14:31, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, one might be tempted to say that makes this application of OS policy make less sense. jp×g🗯️ 17:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Huh, i just actually read the article which i hadn't done before for some reason. Probably a good reason to be able to see the content is to ask if it was following P&G and was really content for readers. fiveby(zero) 13:45, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

@Fiveby, even empty it's gotten tens of thousands of clicks over the past couple weeks. I think readers are interested. I created the article, and when I write I typically do follow P&G as closely as I'm able; what are you questioning re: P&G? Valereee (talk) 12:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

My point was that editors might wish to look at the archived content. But we can't really discuss that content, can't see the history or talk page, can't quote any content here. Wouldn't you look skeptically at content generated about some other case if an editor was invested in the outcome? Believe i can say here on WP: the tone of the "Background: WMF" section seems a little off. I really just read citations in WP articles tho, so don't like #2-b, opinion piece cited for fact. Also #3, not sure that should be used at all. General distaste for news and how citations are used. Minor stuff but may appear strange to readers not familiar with WP style, like providing 5 citations for something you don't really need to cite at all. Minor stuff. But i do see how an outsider looking in might have a more critical opinion not really knowing the P&G's and how content is generated. fiveby(zero) 13:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what you are getting at with Wouldn't you look skeptically at content generated about some other case if an editor was invested in the outcome??

I agree it's hard to write about Wikipedia. So meta. Which is why I moved to article space within, IIRC, hours. So others could help tweak things like tone. Often when I'm first writing an article, citations get added to a sentence because the most recent citation includes a new bit of info but not all the info previously in the sentence. So, yeah, a work in progress.

Won't comment on notnews, as whether this qualifies is probably a matter of opinion. Valereee (talk) 14:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

It's not like i'm in any position to say it if i am getting at something. Didn't edit the article but added a link to a news article on the talk page about hostage taking laws because i happened to like the content. Perhaps "take a critical look" would have been better wording than "look skeptically". That critical look is the only way to say with confidence that there were no or just minor P&G issues with the article. fiveby(zero) 14:45, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

FTR, I'm not invested in the outcome of the case. I don't think I'd ever heard of ANI before this brouhaha. Made my first edit there October 10. So I'm not one of the editors ANI is asking for PII on. Valereee (talk) 14:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Q&A

I can imagine a Q&A style section of our writeup on this that would cover:

• What is the Delhi High Court
  • What is its jurisdiction
  • Can it be appealed
  • How do its judges gain office there
• Who is seeking Wikipedia content change (blanking/deletion) and to what end
  • Is the court an independent actor themselves, specificaly wrt contemptuous language about the court
    • If this applies, what kind of language is likely to trigger blanking/deletion demands
  • Exactly what pages (or suite of pages?) are subject to blanking/deletion
  • Also, in what language editions
  • What is the potential and likely duration of blanking/deletion
• Who is seeking Wikipedia editor information from WMF and to what end
  • What kind of editor information does WMF hold, and for how long
  • Editing what page or pages would put an editor in the class of editors whose information is demanded
• How does contempt of court differ in India from other countries with English law tradition
  • What would lead one to think a court order may extend to a non party to the WMF/ANI case, especially if the non party is not an India resident or corporation
• What is at stake for non compliance with this court
  • Does WMF have offices there
  • Does WMF derive significant revenue from Indian sources
  • Is a full WP ban likely or even possible, in case of non compliance

☆ Bri (talk) 20:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bri: I have some draft answers at User:Bluerasberry/ANI FAQ. I did not answer some of your questions because they were hard, and because I thought that perhaps you had some answers in mind. Can you suggest a column type for a Q&A? There are lots of options. Bluerasberry (talk) 02:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The closest alignment I see at the Signpost content guidance page is In Focus: Usually a submission from a Wikipedia editor or group of editors that focuses on a current specific feature or process of Wikipedia, the Wikimedia Foundation, or concern of the editors that does not fit into Op-Ed, Special Report, or any other regular rubric. "Process or concern of interest" sounds about right to me... ☆ Bri (talk) 03:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

By the way, did a quick read of the In Focus, and I like it. One thing I'd recommend spending a little more effort on -- what is sub judice in non-US jurisdictions and how does it work, maybe contrast to the US protocol where the First Amendment pertains, most especially to the press and other third parties. Does this imply that court ordered speech restrictions come in two flavors a) one that is permanent as the result of the plaintiff's claims of harm b) one that is temporary for the duration of the lawsuit? ☆ Bri (talk) 16:04, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

confused

No idea where I should note this, but the draft at [9] was just wrong. It's not the blanked page that the courts are asking for information on the editors. It's the ANI article. Those are two different articles. I wanted to at minimum make sure we weren't posting something that is completely incorrect. Valereee (talk) 20:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: Thanks and yes. I have a more detailed story at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/In focus. Are you available to check that? My intent was to tell a story for a general audience including non-Wikipedians and journalists, which they could understand and use for their own storytelling. That version distinguishes between the two articles and the differing challenges to each. Bluerasberry (talk) 02:17, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Still not sure this is a great idea, but I've edited. Valereee (talk) 11:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I see an editorial there, promoting the views of Wikipedia editors, to an audience of Wikipedia editors. Is there a separate news story? Oh i see it, right below. fiveby(zero) 13:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

"ANI v. WP", "in the usual way, brief". Lists threads and pages which may be of interest, and pulls out the statement. But it doesn't really attempt to summarize any of the information, to allow the reader to quickly get pertinent information with a "brief" reading.

"Wikipedia editors face defamation accusation", a section named "In focus" would imply to me more in depth-coverage, still mostly informational content with probably some "news analysis", but not editorializing. A "narrative for non-Wikipedians and journalists", it seems that most journalists outside India are not really interested. I would title the current item here "To Journalists in India: an appeal from Wikipedia Editors".

Wikipedians, non-Wikipedians, and journalists all need much of the same informational content. I don't think either of the current articles do a very good job at providing that information. fiveby(zero) 14:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: thanks for the edits, thanks a lot, really. @Fiveby: I might not be able to do a good job, but I am trying to be satisfactory and either be the best in The Signpost, or attract anyone else to Signpost to do a better job. If you have constructive criticism or can make edits yourself then advise. Also, check out other drafts in the next issue and see if you can critique. Thanks a lot for the feedback, please keep it coming. I will write more tomorrow. Weekend deadline. Bluerasberry (talk) 02:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the headline needs to emphasize about WMF agreeing to provide user data to Indian Courts rather than something more generic like "More ANI vs WMF, this time as questions and answers". TrangaBellam (talk) 19:24, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Outline of coverage

Here is my proposal for ways in which we report this story:

• Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/News and notes - news coverage in the usual way, brief
• Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/In focus - 1500 word narrative for non-Wikipedians and journalists Q&A
• Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/From the editor - I think the important thing to emphasize here might be editorial independence. Confirm that The Signpost does not need or seek permission from the WMF/WMF legal/the WMF board, and that the WMF encourages The Signpost's editorial independence.
• [[10]] moved, 1500 word narrative
• Community view - an editor in India is drafting a submission about the state of the regional wiki community

other ideas:

• Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Next_issue/Technology_report - could be about WP:BLACKLOCK, IP masking. This could be the place to report other blacklock usage from other languages
• (any format) - overview on the state of Wikipedia in India, including links to mailing list and feeds, something about grants and funding, list of Wikimedia community organizations, and notice of WikiConference India 2025

I am still interested in writing more. I greatly appreciate anyone's feedback and guidance. Bluerasberry (talk) 02:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Bluerasberry (talk) 02:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

updated a bit Bluerasberry (talk) 02:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Potential people to contact for comment

• Eric Garcetti, US Ambassador to India
  • https://www.ericgarcetti.com/contact-us
• Delhi High Court
  • https://newdelhi.dcourts.gov.in/contact-us/
• Embassy of India, Washington, D.C.
  • https://www.indianembassyusa.gov.in/pages/MjA
• Asian News International
  • https://www.aninews.in/contact-us/

I am not yet sure what I want to ask. Any ideas? Bluerasberry (talk) 02:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Do you really think the involved Judges — or someone else from the High Court — will give you a byte? Also, the Embassy, huh?!

Barring ANI, nothing makes sense in this list. And even in the case of ANI, contacting them will only serve to provoke them. I appreciate Signpost but nobody outside WP has any interest in understanding (and appreciating) Signpost's journalism. I also fear that engaging in journalism like this will affect WMF's claims in Court about being a content aggregator, etc.

So, I suggest that contacting some good academic scholar of Indian free speech jurisprudence — Gautam Bhatia (lawyer) and the likes — might be a more productive axis to move along. TrangaBellam (talk) 05:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Prediction: The diplomats will reply with 'no comments' in a diplomatic manner. The High Court would go something like 'are you serious now? sub judice, round 2? let's go'. ANI being a party to the case would also not comment, unless their legal team allows it. – robertsky (talk) 09:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

@Robertsky: You make it sound like those responses would be a bad thing, and fruitless. I disagree. Even a non-comment on record is better than speculation about what each side is up to. I laid out the Q&A above because this thing is so baroque, I'm having trouble with it. And you never know. This might be a diplomat's opportunity to diplomatically tell Indian courts to go piss up a rope when it concerns regulation of U.S. people and entities. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:03, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Fruitless, yes. A bad thing? Honestly I didn't think much when I wrote the above comment, in fact, nothing at all. A passing jib, if you may. If you want diplomats to stir the nest, I won't look at United States since the nation has to contend with the upcoming elections. The government and diplomatic corp wouldn't want to rock the boat too much on the international front when it is clear that there is going to be a transition in leadership at the top, be it either way. (Canada is another matter though, if at least one of the three editors turns out to be a Canadian.) – robertsky (talk) 15:36, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Upcoming musical Humour page

I think including a satirical song about the ANI court case is a very bad idea. I understand the reasons for including it in News and Notes, but the Humour seems like it could easily be interpreted as mocking the court, which does not sound like a good idea. IANAL, but I don't think we should post that Humour page. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I've already communicated similar concerns to JPxG for him to evaluate. It also might be a copyright violation [11]. Svampesky (talk) 17:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I highly doubt that this is a copyright issue, but at any rate it seems highly inadvisable. Firstly, as it includes stuff written in a language the author does not speak, aimed derisively towards people who do speak said language. Secondly, as it involves AI in some way, which means that it will cause people to mald -- nay, to norwood -- if it is published. Thirdly, because it seems to be a deliberate attempt at provocation that does not bring any useful benefit to us -- if this gets deleted, which it obviously will, and I am forced to come up with some convoluted way of hosting it offwiki (a thing which we have never actually done before), the person who gets nasty letters and an ANI thread over it is me, which I am willing to do for reporting that actually serves the public interest, and maybe even for a joke that is funny, but this is neither of those things. jp×g🗯️ 17:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Censorship is a very serious matter. It is contrary to Wikimedia positions on human rights, freedom of the press, and access to knowledge. The Indian courts are incorrectly treating censorship lightly in this matter. It may not be authoritarian or fascist in this case, but it is an error, an encroachment of community rights, contrary to Wikimedia values, and encouraging to any authoritarian, fascist, or ill-meaning others who now have an example which demonstrates success in censoring Wikipedia.

One correct reaction to this kind of oppression is humor. The correct kind of humor may not be the humor that I demonstrated from AI, but humor is an appropriate response.

The worst possible response is lack of reaction. @QuicoleJR and Svampesky: for the reasons you state, my attempt at humor missed the mark, but please support the use of humor and invite other kinds of responses to censorship. Please help by soliciting other kinds of responses as you can. If you can imagine any kind of humorous response which you could support, then describe it to the extent of your ability. I am doing what I can to recruit other contributors to this next issue, and I take the censorship very seriously. Bluerasberry (talk) 14:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bluerasberry: I like the current content on the Humor page. I think it is an effective way to poke fun at the court order without causing any major problems, and it is also pretty funny. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• feedback about humor from editor in India: use humor that has the Wikimedia community poking fun at both the Wikimedia Foundation, and the Indian courts. This clarifies that Wikimedia community and Wikimedia Foundation are not the same. Also it raises light that the Wikimedia community in India has serious complaints about Wikimedia Foundation and has its own set of unanswered requests, which the Wikimedia community supports. Among the complaints: Wikimedians in India want the Wikimedia Foundation to not encroach in community growth in India, and to leave the community in India to speak for itself rather than relying on WMF for statements to media, etc. Having a humorous statement from someone outside of India can be ideal because people in India may not feel comfortable using humor, even if they want to do so, but people in India would give feedback and comments if asked. Bluerasberry (talk) 15:52, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

20:15

The solution to the various issues that've been raised is for someone to contact the WMF directly to clarify what The Signpost can and can't/shouldn't publish on WMF servers (either by email or on a public forum), and if publishing off-site is allowed, as it will still be under the Signpost/Wikipedia/Wikimedia branding. Svampesky (talk) 17:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

First, we should operate as normal. Until and unless WMF Office takes an official Office action, it's both the simplest and most straightforward thing to do. And if it does take action, WMF has absolutely zero say on what happens off site, and we can just keep the story on the Signpost mirror. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:37, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I recommend that JPxG consult with the WMF and keep them updated on the next issue drafts before publication, especially if this could potentially escalate into a legal matter. I don't know how the WMF should be contacted for these kind of potential legal matters, but I assume JPxG is already familiar with the process. Who actually owns the Signpost branding, and would it count as an extension of Wikimedia to publish it off-site under this branding (in a legal context)? Svampesky (talk) 22:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't recommend that JPxG go around and ask if anybody wants to censor us. If they have any recommendations they can come to us. I certainly wouldn't recommend that he submit stories for pre-publication approval/censorship. If they want or need to censor us - that's up to them. But submitting to it as if we are their employees or serfs would be way over the line. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 22:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

No one owns the Signpost branding, and the WMF has zero say in what the community does, both on and off wiki. The only time the WMF has "a say" in anything is when it is legally required by law/courts to do something, as described in WP:OFFICE. And, unless the Signpost engages in copyright violations, systematic harassment, other forms of unprotected speech (privacy violations, defamation, etc...), or dumb-ass trollery (like re-publishing the contents of the WMF-blanked page), the WMF will have no business interfering with anything we do, unless ordered by courts. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:04, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

• There is no option to communicate with the Wikimedia Foundation @Svampesky: It would be a huge help if you could author a submission which described how you imagine The Signpost could contact the Wikimedia Foundation, what sort of support you imagine they would consider offering, and how you imagine this relationship works.

In my view, a major reason why this censorship is happening at all is because the court in India - and much of the world - incorrectly assumes that the Wikimedia Foundation has editorial input and interaction with the content on Wikipedia. I would like to address this notion intensely and directly in the next issues of The Signpost. The reality that is see is that Wikimedia community members - including our on-wiki roles for administrators, stewards, checkusers, bureaucrats, Arbitration Committee members, and our off-wiki roles for Wikimedia chapters, outreach coordinators, grant recipients, and the rest - all completely lack any relationship with the Wikimedia Foundation which involves editorial oversight or advice.

Svampesky, you are not wrong for asking, but please sound any alarms you can find and call over anyone in authority whom you believe may see otherwise. Not only is there no editorial relationship between community journalism like The Signpost and the Wikimedia Foundation, but also, it is fundamental to Wikimedia community values and journalistic ethics that there never be any such relationship.

A great line of discourse to explore is the extent of the Wikimedia Foundation's commitment to hosting community journalism. The Signpost advocates for the Wikimedia community of editors and the users, whereas the Wikimedia Foundation has another mission, other values, and other priorities. The two are not the same. I believe that the Wikimedia Foundation's values include a commitment to hosting The Signpost in the Wikipedia platform, but that could be explored and discussed.

Svampesky - to be clear - I am unaware of anyone in the Wikimedia community with whom the Wikimedia Foundation would be willing to discuss the topic you raise. I do not think any such person or role exists. I think it is a misunderstanding to imagine that the Wikimedia Foundation would agree to discuss the topic you raise with the Wikimedia community. Bluerasberry (talk) 14:35, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for the single-sentence response to your comment, but my recommendation is that JPxG email the appropriate WMF staff member to ensure that anything published on its servers won't violate the court order. Svampesky (talk) 17:24, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@Svampesky and Bluerasberry:. We're supposed to be covering these folks - reporting on what they do wrong as well as what they do right. This includes WMF employees such as folks in communications, legal, on the board, even the ceo. And it also applies to admins and arbs. Feel free to ask these folks about facts (try not to ask about things that you *know* that they can't answer or ask about very time consuming but trival matters - you'll have to sometimes ask about serious matters and they should be able to take you seriously). It's quite natural to communicate with them, but it's absolutely wrong to ask around to see if they want to censor you. @JPxG: seems to be handling this very well. Trust him. Ask him questions (usually in private if they are very serious) or ask your Signpost colleagues. But never ask around to see if somebody wants to censor you - on any important story somebody will - and then you put your self and The Signpost in a false position if you and the E-I-C decide it needs to be published. You'll have some input, but ultimately it is not your call. Your call is to find the facts, triple check them, find out the E-i-C's view on sensitive stories, and write it up to publish if they want it. We usually want all the factual stories we can get, but some stories can have unintended consequences if we publish. That is the E-i-C's call. And never ask anybody to censor you. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

20:15 publishing this weekend is imperative

Since many of us are U.S. based, I think it would be a really Good Thing to finish publication before the 2024 United States elections happening on Tuesday. There's going to be plenty of distraction then, and potentially a push to include more timely content that would end up delaying publication. @JPxG: what do you say? ☆ Bri (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I am keen on publishing this weekend before the US elections. Bluerasberry (talk) 02:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not JPxG, but I concur heartily with Bri. If we have 4 or more articles in a fairly complete state by Friday, we should publish what we have by Sunday night. There's always some excuse not to publish on deadline, but let's make an absolute commitment to publish by noon Monday, come hell or high water. It looks like we'll have more than 3 articles ready, but if not - we just don't publish until the next Sunday. Dragging it out never works. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 02:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

News and notes

I'm inclined not to include in this issue a community ban of a 10+ year editor, that resulted from bad behavior at RfAs. It doesn't seem to be related to the new elections process, just everyday bad behavior. Bringing it up here in case it merits more discussion. ☆ Bri (talk) 03:39, 30 October 2024 (UTC)