Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/July 15, 2024
Latest comment: 5 hours ago by Tim riley in topic Les contes d'Hoffmann
More?
editNeed more? I could mention his itinerant later career. How do you count? I get 886 characters so far? -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:19, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- That's 908, which is fine. - Dank (push to talk) 22:40, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
1858
editI'm not sure that JennyOz's changes today are correct. What was there before tracks the article's language. My understanding is that the laws/rules relaxed more gradually. I would suggest going back to: ...eased by 1858 when he premiered his first full-length operetta, Orphée aux enfers (Orpheus in the Underworld). -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:08, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- When I was working on the blurb, I saw this potential issue, but decided to do nothing for just this reason ... that there might have been gradual changes in addition to the obvious one. JennyOz, would you prefer a change to the article text as well as the blurb text? - Dank (push to talk) 19:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Jenny, Ssilvers reverted the comma as well ... do you happen to have a couple of links showing where commas were added between hyphenated adjectives? It seems reasonable to me, but if the article writer objects, we probably want to have something to show them. (Personally, I'd rather get poked in the eye than argue about punctuation, so I'm glad you're looking closely at punctuation.) - Dank (push to talk) 19:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ssilvers is right, I think, to object to dating the relaxation of the licensing laws to 1858. Gammond (p. 49) says "By the beginning of 1858, however, this restriction had fortunately been lifted". Safer to stick with "by 1858", I'd say. As to the comma between "small-scale" and "one-act", I shouldn't use one myself, but don't mind if people prefer to add one. Tim riley talk 12:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Jenny, Ssilvers reverted the comma as well ... do you happen to have a couple of links showing where commas were added between hyphenated adjectives? It seems reasonable to me, but if the article writer objects, we probably want to have something to show them. (Personally, I'd rather get poked in the eye than argue about punctuation, so I'm glad you're looking closely at punctuation.) - Dank (push to talk) 19:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Les contes d'Hoffmann
editI question the sentence at the end (The Tales of Hoffmann remains part of the standard opera repertory.): the piece that Offenbach composed was Les contes d'Hoffmann, in French, and that is what is standard repertoire today, even in English-speaking countries: Metropolitan Opera 2024, Royal Opera House 2024, Salzburg Festival 2024, Hamburg State Opera 2024, Bavarian State Opera 2024, Stuttgart State Opera 2016. I suggest to drop the sentence altogether, because most readers will not be surprised, and instead offer the title in French when first mentioned, with a translation if it seems needed. - The article should perhaps be moved. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- The sentence is taken directly from the first paragraph of the Jacques Offenbach Lead. The Tales of Hoffman is the title of the Wikipedia article about the opera. User:Tim riley, can you comment? -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I know that it is the article title, I know that it is in the lead, but I doubt that we should mislead readers into thinking that a piece with the English title is what the great houses of the world perform today. Just drop the sentence saying so, perhaps. - Once upon a time, we had an article The Flying Dutchman (opera). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ssilvers, this was discussed at the FAC of the article. UndercoverClassicist asked me, "Why do we give the title of The Tales of Hoffmann in English but most of the others (e.g. Orphée aux enfers) in French?" To which I responded, "I should gladly give them all in French, but our WP article uses the English title. So, I admit, does our article on Orphée aux enfers, but usage is more finely balanced for that title, whereas in fifty-odd years of opera-going I have never heard any English speaker speak of "Les contes d'Hoffmann"."
- I should personally prefer to use the original language for all opera titles (or at any rate those in romic type: Леди Макбет Мценского уезда or Евгений Онегин would be a stumbling block for most of us) not least because there is a bewildering lack of consistency. I have seen productions of Mozart's masterpiece under the titles of Le nozze di Figaro, The Marriage of Figaro, Figaro's Wedding, and Figaros Hochzeit. Il trovatore is never given as The Troubadour even by ENO and the old Sadler's Wells and Carl Rosa companies, singing in Engish, and the same goes for Johann Strauss's Die Fledermaus which is never The Bat even when given in the vernacular, and ditto, mutatis mutandis, for Così fan tutte. Pagliacci is never translated as Clowns but is translated as Paillasse in France, and in Switzerland many years ago I saw a production advertised as Der Bajazzo. There are many more examples of inconsistency of translated title, and not just opera ones: I have seen the title of Berlioz's oratorio L'Enfance (or L'enfance) du Christ given in English as The Infant Christ, The Childhood of Christ and – with the composer's approval – The Holy Family. To avoid such anomalies and uncertainties I wish we used the original-language titles for all operas, oratorios etc, but that isn't Wikipedia's agreed policy, which is something up with which we have to put. Accordingly, I recommend leaving the TFA spiel as drawn. Tim riley talk 08:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your post based on decades of experience. Same from my side: I got to know Leoncavallo's work as Der Bajazzo and Verdi's as Der Troubadour, but the same theatre would today play Pagliacci and Il trovatore. The times changed towards original titles, and I believe we could adjust to that (even if Wikipedia is slow to follow). You are probably in a position to move the opera article boldly, and my prediction is that there would be little opposition. We could also begin a formal move discussion. Easiest solution: simply use a piped link in the blurb, and a redirect in the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is a case of the tail wagging the dog. WP:ENGLISH says that article titles should generally use the English version, unless the English language sources generally use the foreign language title. We must take the sources as we find them -- the guideline does not support reflecting a trend. So, if you are confident that you can establish that English language sources generally use Les contes..., then the next thing for you to do is to suggest this at the opera's article and try to achieve a consensus there. This TFA blurb is not the place to begin the revolution. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that getting in line with reality is a revolution. The "trend" towards original titles began in the 1970s. I started a move discussion for The Flying Dutchman in 2013, which was still "no consensus" (although with support from Smerus, Michael Bednarek and SchroCat, among others), but the next move discussion in 2021 (not by me) lead to a move to the original title. I am not in the mood to initiate anything but think I suggested three feasible options to get in line with reality. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:29, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is a case of the tail wagging the dog. WP:ENGLISH says that article titles should generally use the English version, unless the English language sources generally use the foreign language title. We must take the sources as we find them -- the guideline does not support reflecting a trend. So, if you are confident that you can establish that English language sources generally use Les contes..., then the next thing for you to do is to suggest this at the opera's article and try to achieve a consensus there. This TFA blurb is not the place to begin the revolution. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your post based on decades of experience. Same from my side: I got to know Leoncavallo's work as Der Bajazzo and Verdi's as Der Troubadour, but the same theatre would today play Pagliacci and Il trovatore. The times changed towards original titles, and I believe we could adjust to that (even if Wikipedia is slow to follow). You are probably in a position to move the opera article boldly, and my prediction is that there would be little opposition. We could also begin a formal move discussion. Easiest solution: simply use a piped link in the blurb, and a redirect in the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I should personally prefer to use the original language for all opera titles (or at any rate those in romic type: Леди Макбет Мценского уезда or Евгений Онегин would be a stumbling block for most of us) not least because there is a bewildering lack of consistency. I have seen productions of Mozart's masterpiece under the titles of Le nozze di Figaro, The Marriage of Figaro, Figaro's Wedding, and Figaros Hochzeit. Il trovatore is never given as The Troubadour even by ENO and the old Sadler's Wells and Carl Rosa companies, singing in Engish, and the same goes for Johann Strauss's Die Fledermaus which is never The Bat even when given in the vernacular, and ditto, mutatis mutandis, for Così fan tutte. Pagliacci is never translated as Clowns but is translated as Paillasse in France, and in Switzerland many years ago I saw a production advertised as Der Bajazzo. There are many more examples of inconsistency of translated title, and not just opera ones: I have seen the title of Berlioz's oratorio L'Enfance (or L'enfance) du Christ given in English as The Infant Christ, The Childhood of Christ and – with the composer's approval – The Holy Family. To avoid such anomalies and uncertainties I wish we used the original-language titles for all operas, oratorios etc, but that isn't Wikipedia's agreed policy, which is something up with which we have to put. Accordingly, I recommend leaving the TFA spiel as drawn. Tim riley talk 08:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
The general discussion of nomenclature belongs elsewhere, but as to Offenbach's opera you would listen for a very long time to Classic FM, Radio Three, ABC or their equivalents in other Anglophone countries without hearing the popular classic announced as "The Barcarolle from Les contes d'Hoffmann". It is always "The Barcarolle from The Tales of Hoffmann". Tim riley talk 10:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I am way beyond the 2-comments limit I normally grant myself in discussions, but may I point out that the disputed sentence ("The Tales of Hoffmann remains part of the standard opera repertory." in blurb and article) doesn't refer - at least to my understanding - to announcements on radio, but performances on stage. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:09, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- We are supposed to go by normal usage in Anglophone countries. Contrary to what you say above, the Salzburg Festival, Hamburg State Opera, Bavarian State Opera and Stuttgart State Opera are not in English-speaking countries: Salzburg is in Austria, and Hamburg, Munich and Stuttgart are in Germany. German is the language of both countries. Can we apply common sense rather than dogma and linguistic confusion? Tim riley talk 12:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I understand the English Wikipedia as informative for a global readership, people who may not have an article about Offenbach or his opera in their language, but who can read English. Teatro Real, Madrid 2013, La Scala, Milan 2023, Stanislavski and Nemirovich-Danchenko Theatre Moscow 2022. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:29, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you bother to check, per impossibile, you will find that there are articles on Offenbach in the Spanish, Italian, Russian and 88 other Wikipedias. Do you wish to occupy our time any further or have you something useful to do, perhaps on one of those Wikipedias? Tim riley talk 17:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I understand the English Wikipedia as informative for a global readership, people who may not have an article about Offenbach or his opera in their language, but who can read English. Teatro Real, Madrid 2013, La Scala, Milan 2023, Stanislavski and Nemirovich-Danchenko Theatre Moscow 2022. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:29, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- We are supposed to go by normal usage in Anglophone countries. Contrary to what you say above, the Salzburg Festival, Hamburg State Opera, Bavarian State Opera and Stuttgart State Opera are not in English-speaking countries: Salzburg is in Austria, and Hamburg, Munich and Stuttgart are in Germany. German is the language of both countries. Can we apply common sense rather than dogma and linguistic confusion? Tim riley talk 12:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)