Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/October 31, 2019

"17th American in space"

I'm not questioning the fact, but in terms of its relevance to a short blurb on the main page, it seems far more extraordinary to include it than it would be to exclude it. The first person to make an extraordinary achievement is of course notable: the second or third, quite possibly. But the seventeenth? Does anyone know the 17th person to step on the top of Everest, the 17th man to run a 4 minute mile? They are facts that can be researched as achievements, but not noteworthy in terms of ranking.

And then to subdivide that in terms of 17th American in space is to raise the subcategory of American astronauts to a particular status, that frankly carries a hint of national pride unsuited to a project of worldwide scope. Kevin McE (talk) 09:54, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree, pretty much. Hawkeye7, could we axe "17th American in space"? - Dank (push to talk) 14:04, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Sure. It's actually based on Collins's rather self-deprecating portrait of himself. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:57, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

I just want to co-sign this discussion. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 18:58, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: we now have 51 characters to spare. Would you like to mention one of his awards or honours? No problem if you don't, we can leave as is. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 19:01, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

I've used them to add a bit about his astronaut group. Experience on Quora has shown that people are very interested in how one gets selected for a trip to the Moon, and what job you were designated to perform. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:17, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Kevin? C&C? - Dank (push to talk) 19:33, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: I made a few more edits to trim below 1025 characters. I am good with this but will be watching if any one has further tweaks. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 19:38, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

All fine with me. I find the choice of date strange; I would have thought a Halloween-themed article more appropriate. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:59, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

It's his birthday. Both Gemini 10 and Apollo 11 launched in July. I don't think we should wait. He may not be alive in July, god forbid. Halloween at POTD is the film Night of the Living Dead. The whole film. I think that is good enough for a holiday that occurs every year. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 20:39, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Capitals

Thanks for the above.

I realise that US English is more likely than my dialect to turn a job title into a personal title, but the capitals on "Command Module Pilot", especially when separated from his name, do not seem justifiable. Our article on Apollo 11 calls him " Command module pilot Michael Collins" (Command capitalised as the first word of a sentence); National Geographic, Smithsonian Institute and many other American sources in a Google search put the three words immediately before his name in lower case.

Similarly, I see no principle in the Titles of people section of MOSCAPS that would result in the capitals in "Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs" in the prose of this paragraph.

And was Columbia called "Command Module Columbia", or was it a command module called "Columbia"? Was the lunar module actually named "Apollo Lunar Module", or was it the lunar module on the Apollo project?

(I'm not convinced that bicentennial, strictly speaking, is a proper noun either, but I don't think I would get much support on that one.) Kevin McE (talk) 23:53, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

There isn't a single approach that Wikipedians have settled on for questions like this. I'd like to propose that we ask at WT:ERRORS and WT:FAC how we should handle questions like this ... any objections? - Dank (push to talk) 01:15, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

I would suggest that there is: WP:MOSCAP. Any capitalisation should be in keeping with our manual of style. Kevin McE (talk) 12:35, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

MOS says we should capitalize proper nouns, but it doesn't give us a complete list of proper nouns. Different people use different approaches to figure out which are the proper nouns. - Dank (push to talk) 13:21, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

It also says, "When preceding a person's name as a title, begin such words with a capital letter (President Lincoln, not president Lincoln). A standard or commonly used name (not description or rewording) of an office is also capitalized when used with a name (The British Prime Minister is Theresa May; Hirohito was Emperor of Japan; Louis XVI was King of France) or when it is the subject itself (The Lord Mayor of Brisbane is ...)." That would not justify the capitals in at least the case of the command module pilot, and throws up inconsistency in the penultimate sentence. Kevin McE (talk) 18:56, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

I asked at WT:FAC. - Dank (push to talk) 19:24, 20 October 2019 (UTC)