Wikipedia talk:Village pump (technical)/Proposal by Jc37/3

• The proposal has been withdrawn, and the #Straw poll is closed. Please feel free to continue to discuss (or not) at your discretion.

Straw Poll closed

Straw Poll Support I made a few comments below about some small modifications I think could work nicely with this proposal, but overall I think it's a good idea. Regards, MacMedtalkstalk 20:36, 23 June 2012 (UTC) - Dank (push to talk) 21:05, 23 June 2012 (UTC) I support the edit, move, and delete groups. I would also support protect and block, as I find them useful for non-admins who deal with vandalism.--Breawycker (talk to me!) 04:45, 24 June 2012 (UTC) Why not? It'll be extremely useful to editors. →TSU tp* 04:49, 24 June 2012 (UTC) Per my response to Monty and jc37 below diff. Ryan Vesey Review me! 06:26, 24 June 2012 (UTC) I support this as a net positive, although it crosses my mind that deleting pages can reasonably be considered a bigger deal than protecting them, which diminishes my enthusiasm just a little bit. But, on balance, I'm satisfied that this isn't a deal-breaker, because the combination of tools makes sense to me, and I think that this is a good way to increase productivity of the project as a whole. I also commend the proposer for so thoughtfully spelling out the procedures for granting the rights. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:36, 24 June 2012 (UTC) The ease of removal this brings is very reassuring. Marcus Qwertyus 07:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC) *I strongly support this. Would be extremely useful. CyanGardevoir (used EDIT!) 07:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Strong support. Right now, to give a trusted editor these right means also giving them power over other editors, it is difficult to take away the rights if they abuse them. With this proposal, they don't have power over other users and it is easier to remove them. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:01, 25 June 2012 (UTC) As a dispute resolution volunteer at WP:DRN, the fact that I have no special authority over users makes it easier to help them to resolve their disputes. Administrators get treated differently than non-administrators by newbies. On the other hand, when I see a violation of WP:OUTING, I want to hide the personal information on sight, not wait until an admin reacts to my request. Some editors have Asperger's syndrome and do well in roles that are highly systematized and predictable, but the social interaction aspects of AS makes them a poor fit with the user blocking aspects of being an administrator. This proposal allows them to be more effective at what they do best. Some Quakers believe that accepting a position as a Wikipedia administrator would violate the Quaker Testimony of Equality by giving one person power over another. Like being a police officer, this is something that (some) Quakers have no problem with someone else doing, but choose not to do themselves for religious reasons. This proposal allows them to help in admin areas that do not violate their religious principles. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:54, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Strong support per Guy Macon. Specs112 t c 13:15, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Not sure I support this anymore. Specs112 t c 19:54, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Strong support although I don't know if the WMF will agree.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Support. Thanks Jc37 for a very well-written proposal. It is obvious that you have studied these issues for a long time. A moderator-admin (mod) without the ability to block or protect separates moderation from the hammer. Anything that puts the focus more on neutral content moderation earlier on, rather than user behavior is a good thing. See related discussion: Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2012-06-18/Investigative report‎. Mods will be able to close content-related discussions such as RM; DRV; AfD/CfD/FfD/TfD/MfD/etc.. Mods will be a separate group away from trigger-happy admins who oftentimes block without warning when implementing WP:Edit warring. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:08, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Support If you look at the rapidly decreasing number of successful RFAs and the otherwise-qualified editors who don't want to go through the RFA process as it stands now (myself, for one), something has to be done given the size of the backlogs. This is an opportunity to break out of our currently dysfunctional situation. Dori ☾Talk ⁘ Contribs☽ 19:05, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Support this division better clarifies when the mop is cleaning up substance A, and when the mop is cleaning up substance B. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC) Support Splitting these specific userrights makes sense and doesn't change the fact that it is admins who are involved in blocking and those sorts of tools, while this set of tools is more associated with fixing backlog issues and getting community discussions closed. SilverserenC 07:05, 26 June 2012 (UTC) Support a limited-period trial. We've got to do something. Our admin corps mostly comprises people who passed a popularity contest a few years ago; few of them could pass an RFA at the current standards. And there will presumably be a cull of the idiots in our admin corps once we have a functioning community desysopping process, which is only a matter of time. So there have to be trials of viable options. I do not support implementing this without a limited-period trial and community review process.—S Marshall T/C 11:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC) Support trial period, although I'm not certain I agree with the rest of User:S Marshall's comment. I think a trial period of one year would be a good amount of time - if the community decides to reject full implementation after that time, mods/archons/grand poobahs/whatever can use their experience as a good pointer in RfA or just abandon the tools. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 20:48, 26 June 2012 (UTC) Clarification': I do not support the alternate proposal that does not allow these people to view and modify their deletion actions. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 15:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC) Support, though I'd prefer a different name (eg. "janitor"). --Carnildo (talk) 23:16, 26 June 2012 (UTC) Weak support, counterprposoal: how about removing most deletion-related tools except "delete"? This would let approved people close most but not all deletion discussions, handle most speedy deletes, handle most AfDs, and most other backlogged issues, without the WMF-imposed requirement of an RfA process. I think an RfA process is a good idea for now, but we should have the flexibility to relax this in the future. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 05:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC) I support this idea. CyanGardevoir (used EDIT!) 08:17, 27 June 2012 (UTC) #Conditional support (Moved to oppose) Only the delete function without the ability to undelete or view deleted content, per Davidwrl's proposal CyanGardevoir (used EDIT!) 08:25, 27 June 2012 (UTC) Support, but Neutral on viewing of deleted content. Just to be clear, I'm not against the addition of rights relating to the viewing of deleted content, but there seems to be some opposition to them, and they make matters more complicated with regard to legal/WMF, etc. I don't think they form an absolute core part of this otherwise really well-thought-out and wonderful proposal. — This, that, and the other (talk) 10:28, 27 June 2012 (UTC) While of course, the community is welcome to offer suggestions and counter-proposals and so on through the consensus process, I personally oppose the granting of the delete tool to any editor who cannot see deleted content. One should be able to see what's been going on in the past to make better and more informed decisions when using delete/undelete appropriately. This can be particularly important in cases of CSD (like G4). And the WMF has has now stated their opinion. So just as we can give these tools to admins, so too we can give them to mods. So again, while the community is welcome to suggest such proposals, if this motion was carried, you would leave me opposing my own proposal : ) - jc37 13:33, 27 June 2012 (UTC) I have changed my comment so hopefully it does not hinder this proposal :) I still think it is not so important that people who can delete must also be able to view deleted contributions, however. — This, that, and the other (talk) 07:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC) Support - This makes a lot of sense, and would solve a lot of the problems that people keep screaming about at RfA. Keilana|Parlez ici 22:14, 27 June 2012 (UTC) Support - with the understanding that such "non-blocking admins" (for I believe that is what they are and how they should be treated) are deemed to be just as trustworthy as other admins, and subjected to similar scrutiny, while recognizing their interest lies on the content-administration side rather than from policing editor behavior. It would be a natural package for trustworthy, respected, but drama-averse editors. TheGrappler (talk) 16:15, 28 June 2012 (UTC) There are other admin user-rights besides block that are not in this package, but otherwise, yes : ) - jc37 16:26, 28 June 2012 (UTC) Support: This makes eminent sense, and I'm curious as to the "OMG you're going to give people powerz!!" hysteria exhibited by some of the Oppose voters below. Do we not already give such powers to admins? Is the process of approving "moderators" going to be any different? Are not the legal liabilities exactly the same, one way or another? Ravenswing 20:41, 29 June 2012 (UTC) More of us have criticised the proposal on the basis that it would result in trustworthy users being denied tools (those not included in the new package). Of particular concern is the likelihood that the advent of modship would encourage the community to reject worthy admin candidates. ("Oppose. You can just become a moderator instead. That way, we can easily demote you.") —David Levy 23:34, 29 June 2012 (UTC) Strong support - This group of users could turn out to be very helpful for problems that admins could be too busy to fix. For example, if a user feels like he/she doesn't want his/her subpage anymore, and is not just satisfied with having it as a redirect to their user page. Instead of asking a busy admin to do the job, the user could ask one of these people, who probably have much less to do and would be willing to delete the subpage. Brambleberry of RiverClan Chat ♠ Watch 22:45, 29 June 2012 (UTC) How often does that actually happen? - Pointillist (talk) 22:49, 29 June 2012 (UTC) I know that it's happened to me multiple times, and I can't be the only one; there wouldn't be instructions on Wikipedia of how to get it as deleted as possible without actually deleting it if I were the only one. Brambleberry of RiverClan Chat ♠ Watch 23:26, 29 June 2012 (UTC) 1. Have you experienced difficulty finding an admin to perform such tasks? 2. I see no reason to assume that members of the proposed user group would be any less busy. (The proposal is based on the premise that they would help with the same backlogs.) And they would be pulled from the same pool of trustworthy users, so why not simply make them admins? (This is discussed in greater detail below.) —David Levy 23:34, 29 June 2012 (UTC) Support There's been a lot of unbundling proposals over the years that have been pretty bad; I could see this one actually working out. --Rschen7754 23:46, 29 June 2012 (UTC) Support I can't see any problems it's likely to cause, and it should certainly help things run more smooth around here. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 02:31, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Support - well argued proposal. As far as I can see, one of the primary objections detailed below is that if an editor can be trusted with these tools and the approval process is the same as for Admins, they should just be made an admin. This ignores the fact that some editors don't want these tools (as detailed in the original proposal and by some editors here); regardless of whether the analogy was well chosen, the point still stands. We should not be about forcing an extra set of tools on editors that they don't want and won't use just because of some notion that this is administratively easier or that they deserve to have access to them (assuming successful candidacy). AusTerrapin (talk) 04:59, 30 June 2012 (UTC) That issue hasn't been ignored. It's been suggested to simply permit administrators to decline/relinquish access to tools that they don't want. If the standard of trust is to be the same, why is it necessary for the community to draw a distinction? Why can't we simply grant trustworthy editors adminship and permit them to accept the tools with which they're comfortable? And why should users who choose to decline access to certain tools be subject to a special recall provision? —David Levy 05:20, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Support: I think there are editors/users who can be trusted with some aspects of the admin tools, who just don't want to be admins. This would move things along considerably on various boards like WP:RM and others where we don't have to go track down an admin to get something moved and the like. Good idea, full support. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Support: per Guy Macon Themeparkgc  Talk  07:05, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Support: Good for pacifists . Wikipedia is becoming bulky and needs more tiers of administration sids 08:48, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Support limited trial. While I understand that some people have a reluctance to block, they are under no obligation to do so, and I know a number of admins that never or rarely block. When suggesting to people they become admins the main reason for not doing so is the RfA process, and this proposal does not alleviate their concern in that area. However, I have long been a supporter of the principle of unbundling the admin rights and giving them out to people as appropriate. My main concern with this proposal is that it may be setting up a scheme which would be little used or requested other than by inappropriate candidates who end up wasting the community's time. As this package includes the rights to delete material, and the rights to restore problematic material either into user or main space, then the user would likely be facing the same heavy RfA as that of a full admin, so would need to have the same breadth and depth of experience, the same robust constitution, and the same sound judgement. Of concern is that someone who hasn't got the common sense and balanced character to accept all the admin tools and stay away from using those tools or areas they feel uncomfortable with is unlikely to be someone who could be trusted with deleting and undeleting material. However, I think it would be worth giving this a limited trial to see if it is used, and what sort of people put themselves forward. If it helps in getting more useful users doing administrative work, then I'll be all in favour. SilkTork ✔Tea time 10:07, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Conditional Support. I was somewhat hesitant when I started reading your proposal since it sounded overly bureaucratic. One thing I don't want is to create more of a hierarchy (where becoming an admin is a two-step process). On the other hand, as long as Requests for Modship would be treated exactly the same way as RfA (per Jc37 and Philippe) I could definitely support this. It seems perfectly reasonable to give trusted editors who could be admins if they wanted to the opportunity to only take on certain responsibilities at their discretion, and not be burdened with the entire administrator package. —JmaJeremy•Ƭalk•Cont 10:19, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Support: a very clearly-written and sensible proposal that would make Wikipedia a better place - more "moderator"-type admins with the power to help, and no desire to get involved in blocking and suchlike. I can imagine I might one day wish to help in that way, being a "mod": but never to be an admin. I feel that Jc37 has precisely understood a need (people willing to help, a backlog needing attention) that is different from the current concept of adminship. It's still a responsibility and fair enough that consensus is required. I do somewhat agree that some of the deletion tools might be excluded, and the ability to read deleted content; and that admins could be allowed publicly to renounce use of some tools to achieve a similar effect. But the change would be good. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:52, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Support I'm skeptical that this is going to do much to resolve our RfA problems, as most of the nastiness and high standards in the RfA process would still be there. In particular the emphasis on content in this proposal is likely to make our (already ridiculously high) content requirements in RfA even worse. On the other hand I can't think of any good arguments against this proposal, and S Marshall is right that we need to do something. Hut 8.5 14:07, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Support I think this is a good idea, but I'd welcome a trial first to iron out any issues. Cloudbound (talk) 15:23, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Strongly Support This seems both a well-thought idea and an intelligent solution. I fully support the concept. --Nouniquenames (talk) 17:48, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Support I have always wanted to be able to edit protected templates and do category moves, especially when I was more active. Debresser (talk) 19:58, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Support A lot of thought has gone into this proposal. I'm sure there are many users such as I who would like to handle some of the more admin-ly tasks of this sort but not all of them. And anything that helps reduce a backlog, particularly in the XFD department, is a welcome improvement IMO. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:19, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Support a trial. I do like this well-argued proposal, but can't deny that there have been many valid points from those who oppose it. I'd like for everybody to be able to see how it actually plays out first, over a limited span of time; that way, more informed decisions can be made by everybody. Chris the Paleontologist (talk • contribs) 22:45, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Support. The idea of creating a sort of "subset" of administrators with fewer tools to deal with the backlogs is a great idea. However, I will consent with the other opinions that a trial period should be rolled out in order to work out the problems. Regardless, Wikipedia should be free to include more so-called "moderators" who are allowed to clear out the backlogs and free up time for the more busy administrators. I completely support this idea.OmnipotentArchetype0309 (talk) 00:12, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Strong support. Completely agree with Nouniquenames's response above. Jesse V. (talk) 04:40, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Strongly support. Debundle admin tools so that the RfA process for these sysops-lite can avoid the drama associated with figuring out how well a sysop candidate will wield the block and protect tools, when he doesn't even want those tools. Maybe this will go a long way toward fixing our sysop drought. It could be a good stepping-stone to full sysop powers, and a way for us to evaluate how well they handle limited sysop powers before giving them a promotion to full sysop. Leucosticte (talk) 05:29, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Support. RFA is broken, this might well be the fix. Status quo is certainly not the fix. Let's try this, if only for the obviousness of accommodating true "wikipacifists". A population exists, however small, that doesn't want to get involved in behavior issues. They're still willing to help with gnomework-- let them. And on top of that, maybe this will help fix RFA. --HectorMoffet (talk) 11:31, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Support. I'm fairly relaxed about this. A process that might help get more trusted editors involved in admin-like work and able to clear backlogs is welcome. I'm not sure this particular idea will work but I'm happy for the community to give it a go (a trial period makes sense but my support isn't dependent on it). And if it doesn't work, the sky won't fall and we'll try something else... Whouk (talk) 15:35, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Support. I'm one of those who is happy to work on content and let the broad-shouldered deal with combat. David_FLXD (Talk) 17:37, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Support. After reading the proposal, this sounds very much like something I have wanted. I want to be able to edit protected templates, without having the full responsibility as an administrator. 117Avenue (talk) 21:36, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Support Doesn't look harmful--good way to fight backlogs. Mark Arsten (talk) 03:52, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Support Looks like a good way to combat backlogs. I'm a little concerned that it adds to the beaucratic burden, but that doesn't look avoidable. Stuartyeates (talk) 07:29, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Support This seems a thoughtful proposal. It would enable more effective contributions from many editors who are leery of the political aspects of being an admin. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 10:31, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Support I begin to wonder if we have lost touch with our open source roots sometimes. Giving something a try with the idea that it can be easily changed back if it turns out not to work is in line with the open source philosophy (and the whole idea of the way a wiki works). Many people who agree that we need to do "something" about RfA can't seem to agree what to do about it. That's exactly the case where we should give latitude to a proposal that we might have doubts about the success of. I support this proposal with the understanding that all such major policy changes should be considered provisional. If any opposers are still around to read this, I urge them to reconsider as well, and put in support for this so that we can break the logjam of stagnation and actually try something well-thought-out. Don't think of it as a permanent marriage, I and many other supporters will be right along side you ready to revert this if it does not work. Gigs (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Support, at least for a trial period of several months to see how many people take it up. I'm a new admin (here's my RfA) who had six years' experience and 30,000 edits under my belt before being talked into RfA (jointly by Jc37). I had been doing occasional non-admin closures for years, and had long wanted the ability to see deleted pages. I would have gone for moderator-adminship much sooner than I got round to RfA. Although I had no appetite for blocking and protecting, once I became an admin I came across obvious sockpuppets and WP:CORPNAME, and used those tools after all; so I think that within a year of becoming a moderator I would have applied for full adminship. So while I am glad I have the whole package now, I think that moderator-adminship would be a useful and effective route to recruiting admins. Give it a try. If after six months it looks as if there were not many editors who were "shy" of wanting the whole toolbox like me, then the few new mods will have a choice of RfA or reverting to "just" being contributors (and hooray for contributors!). – Fayenatic London 16:30, 2 July 2012 (UTC) But you would have to have gone through RfA anyway to get this proposed new admin-lite package, so what's the difference? Malleus Fatuorum 19:10, 2 July 2012 (belated reply:) Because it matched both the powers and the responsibilities that I wanted. – Fayenatic London 17:16, 5 July 2012 (UTC) Support. Anything that opens the door for more users to have more power is a good thing! Red Slash 16:42, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Support. Long over due. Current proposal not perfect, but making the perfect of the enemy of the good = nothing gets done, which is unfortunately the usual Wikipedia way. VolunteerMarek 20:24, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Support - In review of opposes, many are objecting to the RfA process either directly or indirectly, as I read their concerns. While I think the current RfA is a horror and would not inflict it on an enemy, I see this as a way for those who want to advance the project to do so, without the added level of conflict involved in full adminship.User talk:Unfriend12 20:56, 2 July 2012 (UTC) I'm very interested in that line of argument, but I fail to see how RfAs for moderators would be any different from RfAs for regular administrators. And in fact, as the moderator role is very much content-centred, I can see them being even rougher than regular RfAs, where many supporters pooh-pooh the idea that administrators should be even able to string two sentences together Malleus Fatuorum 21:08, 2 July 2012 (UTC) I fear I may have been unclear. The RfA *MUST* be no different. I speak of the stress of actually being the one to block, for example.User talk:Unfriend12 21:30, 2 July 2012 (UTC) I still don't understand why anyone would go through a process that I can see as being rougher on content-oriented editors, who stand to gain fewer rights, than it is presently on those asking for the whole shooting match. And after all, not everyone who owns a gun is obliged to use it. Malleus Fatuorum 22:17, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Support - Blocking is a much more difficult decision than deletion and it brings a ton more stress. I don't buy for a second that an RfM would be just as bad or nearly as political. The rules governing deletion are much more precise and far less ambiguous than those for blocking, so a candidate's knowledge and judgment should be pretty clear. Xavexgoem (talk) 02:54, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Support - By shifting part of the "maintenance"-work to the Admin-Lites, it will free time for the Admins to deal with serious problems. Not clear: can an Admin-Lite protect a page incase of an editwar? If so, for a max term of 1 day or so? Night of the Big Wind talk 15:07, 3 July 2012 (UTC) The Wikimedia Foundation has explicitly stipulated that "we can't have moderators be 'admin-lite', or a training ground for admins." To answer your question, no, the package would exclude the ability to protect pages (as explained in bold on the proposal page). —David Levy 16:10, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Support some editors objected in my RfA due to my reluctance to consider future involvement in user-related processes such as blocking, claiming that it had to be "all or nothing". I've seen the same objections pop up time and again in RfAs both here and in other Wikipedias, and believe this proposal would greatly alleviate that problem. --Waldir talk 15:09, 3 July 2012 (UTC) moved to oppose after more careful consideration. --Waldir talk 15:25, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Support RfA clearly isn't producing as many administrators as we need. I don't know if this will actually help, but I don't see it doing any harm so we might as well try. --Tango (talk) 15:22, 3 July 2012 (UTC) You understand that "the selection processes for moderators [would be] exactly the same as that for administrators — using the same criteria, operating on the same page" (RfA), yes? —David Levy 16:10, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose Some of the rights proposed have been among the most contentious in RFAs, and their misuse has been prominent in discussions on AN/I and elsewhere: the deletion of articles. Being responsible for removing a contributors article is the single most sensitive act a wikipedian can do--and potentially among the most harmful things any one individual can do to the project. The continuing life of the project depends on recruiting new editors, and most people whose first article is rejected never come back again. AfD closure an already be done under limited circumstances by non-admins, although their excessive use of this ability has been a continuing problem. Any editor at all can decline a speedy or a prod. Deletion is something that needs very careful though, common sense, and fairly wide knowledge. I'm sure many non admins have them, but anyone who does and has never really gotten into trouble will pass RFA. I'm equally sure a few admin do not have this, & they can do considerable harm because it is so hard to get rid of them. These processes never have more than single day backlogs and are rarely time-sensitive. DGG ( talk ) 03:07, 25 June 2012 (UTC) You are welcome to your opinion, and I do not intend to try to convince you otherwise, but I'd like to clarify a few things. The backlogs are longer than a day. Just today I closed a policy-related discussion today from february, and a CfD from over a month ago. This process is to be the same as the RfA/RfB process, so all your concerns about the importance of the tools in question would be weighed just as any RfA. By checking contribs, asking questions, and attempting to discern if you would trust the individual with these tools and responsibilities. And finally, this process has removal built into it. - jc37 03:23, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Policy discussion often take a longer time to close, and this is not always a bad thing considering their importance and the usual presence of good arguments in different directions. XfDs other than AfD are widely neglected--very few people regularly work there, and dealing with this is one of the problems, because their decisions are unrepresentative.They have much bigger problems than delays in closings. If this is to be exactly like RfA, so will be the standards and the nature of the discussions--in other words, this will accomplish nothing that anyone might desire DGG ( talk ) 17:37, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Your welcome to your opinion of XfD processes. As for "nothing anyone might desire", I might suggest that you check out several comments on this talk page, including from Quinn1 and MacMed, and several people in the support section. I think that there is a clear "desire" for this, and more, that this would actually be useful (per Tryptofish, for example). And that's just this discussion, people have been requesting a "non-blocking" package for a rather long time. - jc37 18:37, 25 June 2012 (UTC) I don't see the payoff in making someone go through something that is basically is RFA and then making them a partial admin. I also find the idea that the "delete" button is not as important as the block button to be deeply flawed. I wouldn't expect anyone who can't be trusted to decide when to block out there deleting and restoring articles. Along with that are the same objections I have every few months when someone thinks of reproposing partial admins: it is extremely common to come upon situations that require multiple admin tools. These half-admins will constantly have to find full admins to finish the job for them. That does not strike me as an effiicient way to clear backlogs. In short I see little to no benefit and a lot of hassle involved with this idea. I also doubt many users would bother to go through the process when they could go through the same thing and become a full admin. I can't say I know how to "fix" RFA, but this ain't it. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC) The payoff, I would hope, is that those who want to perform these tasks, without the extremely stressful conflicts involved in blocking, for example, would apply for this role. Another might well be that admins who are currently not active due to his stress would come back.User talk:Unfriend12 21:04, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Because it's what I have already said many times on other discussions that basically concern unbundling the tools rather than addressing what's actually wrong with RfA, I fully concur with DGG and Beeblebrox. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 17:45, 25 June 2012 (UTC) (Expanding in the light of recent discussions, and to concur with the WMF statement and other user comments) ...as we are a volunteer project, I would think that we should provide a way for such contributors to help out in a manner they are comfortable with.. - we already do, every single contributor, including IPs, has far more influence over content and policing the participants than they would ever even get on their local fishing club forum. While the unbundling of some tools may in certain cases be worth considering, it does not necessarily address the overall competency of any of the editors who will use them. Almost all of the recent good faith proposals to unbundle the tools, or to create 'moderators' or 'admin lite' have been made in order to address the dearth of candidates for adminship; they all fail to take into account however, that the selection/election process will still be open to the very same issues that have prevented editors of the right calibre and experience from wanting to be subject to the sysop selection/election process. At worst, an unbundling may even encourage more 'hat collectors' to apply for additional user rights - another problem that is endemic to the current RfA process and other user rights that are ostensibly seen by some as a privilege or a reward. We could risk ending up with too many chiefs and not enough Indians, or as Brandon Harris (Jorm) once stated, what Wikipedia does not want, is 'a whole priesthood of gatekeepers' - --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:05, 1 July 2012 (UTC) The position of the WMF is that only administrators can view deleted content. By this reason both 'undelete' and 'deleterevision' may not be included. In addition, how are you going to decide what to undelete if you can not view deleted? Other rights like 'move-subpages' and 'suppressredirect' are rarely used and are among the most useless in the admin package. I do not think anybody is going to acquire much 'administrative experience' by using them. Ruslik_Zero 18:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Which is why this may need to be considered a type of admin (as I clearly noted in the proposal). I am leaving that to them to clarify. - jc37 19:34, 25 June 2012 (UTC) I don't think we'd have an objection to viewdelete if it was through an RfX-like process, but don't take my word for it - I'll check in with legal and see what they think (incidentally, if you want us to clarify you may want to ask us directly ;-). We have two Community Liaisons and a lot of new things happening every day on WP; we don't catch it all). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:48, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Thanks Okeyes, I did send a request in to legal—Philippe (WMF). Ryan Vesey Review me! 22:55, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Yeah, I just got told internally; headdesk! Okay, I'm going to sit over here in the corner and try to remove my foot from my gullet, where it is (un)happily wedged ;p. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC) If the process is the same as for adminship, that really defeats the purpose of an admin-lite type of position. My alternate proposal would be to remove the ability to view deleted materials and make this a lesser-than-RfA process, though the resulting position shouldn't be able to close any contentious debates. The 'yearning' for an admin-lite position was always based on RfA being overkill for a lot of the current admin-only duties, so adding the lite position without also providing the lighter process defeats the whole purpose, in my opinion.Switched from neutral -- I'd like the door to remain open for a bona fide admin-lite type of position in the future, and if this proposal gets passed I see that being more difficult.Equazcion (talk) 20:49, 24 Jun 2012 (UTC) Well in the last several discussions I've been in, it's been made clear that all deletion-related tools, block, and protect will not be given out without RfX community approval. And even editprotected, when I proposed that as a separate right. So with that in mind, what tools were you looking to see in your idea of admin-lite? - jc37 01:28, 26 June 2012 (UTC) Just because things have been rejected in the past doesn't mean that couldn't change in the future. That said, I don't know what my ideal version of admin-lite would be. I do know that this proposal is much too far off from constituting the kind of benefit for which admin-lite has been argued traditionally, that it's not worth implementing this way just to risk not being able to do it the right way in the future. I think admin-lite has been rejected so much in the past that we're just trying to get something through, but this something is really way too similar to adminship to benefit us the way admin-lite has been proposed to, and I'd rather not "occupy its slot", so to speak, on the chance that something viable and truly beneficial could come up later. Equazcion (talk) 01:45, 26 Jun 2012 (UTC) "...this proposal is much too far off from constituting the kind of benefit for which admin-lite has been argued traditionally..." - guessing (from your comments through out the various discussions) that you mean because it requires going through RfX, and you're looking for something an admin-granted? You're welcome to hope for that, but my experience with these sorts of proposals leads me to think that that will just never be the case. Too many people have major concerns about delete/block/protect. (Just look at this discussion where some still seem to think that this proposal suggests something other than requiring the RfX process.) But who knows, WP:CCC after all, so hang on to your hopes. I just don't share that hope, and am trying to propose something the community will approve. I enjoy tilting at windmills as much as (really, more than) the next person, but for this, I think respecting the feeling of the community is the way to go. - jc37 02:02, 26 June 2012 (UTC) Don't strawman. Not-RfA doesn't necessarily mean admin-granted. There are many in-betweens, and certainly many combinations of rights and process haven't been proposed yet and could have a chance. I did spell out above that I understand you're trying to propose something the community will approve -- and furthermore, in focusing on that alone, you've sacrificed all its potential benefits (to the point that it looks like the community will again not be approving of this). Equazcion (talk) 02:17, 26 Jun 2012 (UTC) I wasn't trying to "strawman". I was sincerely trying to understand what you meant. I'm not sure what benefits you think that this proposal is "sacrificing". But I'll pass on trying to guess again. Thanks for attempting to clarify. - jc37 02:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC) Strong Oppose anything that would allow non-admins to view deleted material under any circumstances. Legal nightmare waiting to happen. Also more general concern with further handing out lots of tiers and toolsets. Wikipedia is not an MMORPG--we don't need any more 'levels' than are strictly necessary. If backlogs are a problem, get some more admins or find a way to make the ones we have more active. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:55, 26 June 2012 (UTC) I find your suggestion that we should "find a way to make [admins] more active" rather curious... How are we supposed to do this? While it is true that some admins leave in a huff, most just seem to "go dark" for whatever reason. We ought to be respectful of that, and remember that life does continue outside the wiki. — This, that, and the other (talk) 07:42, 26 June 2012 (UTC) Incidentally, this proposal actually is a way to try to help some admins to become more active. I've heard it said by several concerning admin "burnout" due to having to deal with what (from their point of view) is block-related nonsense. (paraphrasing) "I would be happier with adminship if I didn't have to also act as the local hall monitor." So this package will give them that option if they wish. And so, may actually help them become more active. Why am I sure of this? Consider how many admins just gave up adminship entirely due to not wanting to deal with such things anymore. They aren't necessarily any less trustworthy than they were when carrying the adminship tools. So giving them the option to pick up this package is a way to give them the opportunity to again help with certain admin-level, content-related tools and responsibilities. So I see this as a win-win. It gives various editors a way to help contribute, while still maintaining the high level of trustworthiness that we would want to ascribe to admins. - jc37 14:31, 26 June 2012 (UTC) XfD participation should be restricted to obvious deletions only. This proposal should be about handing out the tools for technical reasons, to people who we believe intend to do the right thing, and who have shown themselves capable of working within highly objective guidelines. Jc's answer to my concern in the discussion section suggests that to an extent this is the intention, but the fact that contentious AfDs are within this new group's remit shows beyond doubt that it's not the result. My biggest concern at RfA is over whether someone is suitable to close contentious discussions, so in most cases it makes no difference whether or not they are requesting the block/protect functions. If we don't trust someone to block people, then we are either questioning their interpretation of policies and guidelines, or questioning their temperament. If we don't trust someone to protect/unprotect, then we are either questioning their interpretation of policies and guidelines, or suggesting that they would act in a way which is more protectionist/liberal than the community believes they should. Most relevantly, if we don't trust them to close contentious RfCs or policy discussions, why on earth shouldn't this be extended to contentious AfDs? All it would take for me to reconsider my opposition would to restrict AfD closes to non-admin closures – a practise which is already in place and well understood – the difference being that this usergroup would be able to action obvious deletes. Wordage wise this would be a small amendment, but one which is absolutely fundamental to what this new bundle is supposed to be about. —WFC— 09:30, 26 June 2012 (UTC) I believe that this would be a very fair alteration to make. This would greatly increase community support and would still be helpful in cleaning up backlogs. If mods can close clear RfXs, then the backlog for actual admins would be lowered and they could spend their time on more contentious closes, where to community wants to have the full mop. Regards, MacMedtalkstalk 12:32, 26 June 2012 (UTC) It's kinda difficult to respond because I'm still waiting for a response from the WMF people (they said they would this weekend). But even without their response, I'm really starting to get a sense that the concept of "non-admin" is seen by some editors as "untrustworthy", when that was never the idea in this proposal. The need to pass RfX is supposed to help ascertain that those with this user-right package are trustworthy. To be clear, I would not support a proposal that gave deletion tools to an untrustworthy editor, period. As an aside, I suggested in the proposal that we may need to call this group moderator-admin due to WMF concerns. But now I'm beginning to wonder (due to this "non-admin" misunderstanding) whether we need to call it that due to community concerns as well. - jc37 13:36, 26 June 2012 (UTC) I object to use of the word "misunderstanding", and would ask you to strike it. I understand exactly what this proposal entails, and while I disagree on this one (fundamental) point, I understand what it is that you are attempting to achieve with the proposal. I have simply used the term "non-admin closures" in relation to obvious AfD deletions, so that the suggestion could not be dismissed as being in any way complicated. —WFC— 14:23, 26 June 2012 (UTC) I meant it in a general sense and not directed specifically towards you. (Note the use of "community concerns" in the same sentence.) My apologies if that wasn't clear. (I've added "As an aside" as a clarifying phrase.) And you are of course welcome to disagree on any point at your discretion. - jc37 14:37, 26 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose. Blocking and content are intimately connected wherever the issue is difficult. This project has one purpose, which is content. Sometimes, content disputes become behavioural disputes. Where Blocking is needed, and content is not involved, you have the easiest of situations to decide to block. Where an administrative decision is challenged by bad behaviour, the administrator needs the authority and ability to block. If there is a problem with blocking in the project, it is with excessive hesitancy to block. Trying to solve content management problems with impotent admins will make thigns worse. Anyone trusted with deletion privileges should have the block ability. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC) If you believe that the block-hammer is wielded too lightly rather than too harshly, then that is so. But those who believe the opposite, or who don't really care either way, could consider that ANI and AIV already serve as a go-between for users who are going about their business of trying to improve our content, and who want admins to potentially make some blocks in a given situation. There is no reason why members of this new user group could not use the same channels; indeed their requests would likely require less disagreement and discussion amongst users at the respective boards, since members of the new group will be more experienced than your average user. Just a thought. — This, that, and the other (talk) 10:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC) I believe that blocking is too hesitant for small problems, and then used too severely too late. This is the impression of a "block-hammer" - no delicacy, all or nothing. There are not enough 1 hour blocks for offensiveness (disrupting other editors), and then there are too many indefinite blocks that weren't preceded by blocks of escalating duration. This proposal seems to amplify the notion that blocks are a super-serious matter, and looks like it will head towards fewer admins dealing out harsher blocks, and for this reason I think it should be opposed. Also, if the application process is to be identical to RfA, why not just do RfA? I don't remember any RfA failures due to a perceived inability to block appropriately. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:07, 27 June 2012 (UTC) This proposal seems to rely on the idea that deletion related tools are less severe or contentious than block related tools, and do not require the same degree of trustworthy level-headedness. I do not think this is right. To underscore DDG's remarks about the gravity of deletion: deletions may have caused more newcomers to vanish forever than blocking ever did. There is a grain of truth in the notion that blocking is always personal and hence inherently contentious; but if deletion is not always so, it is not the case that it is never so. The degree of responsibility needed to be entrusted with a tool depends on the potential for misuse of the tool, regardless of whether that potential is only sometimes severe or is always so. I do not believe this subset of tools should be handed out any more or less liberally than the full suite of administrator tools. To the extent that a backlog of administrative tasks is a problem, the solution is to elect more administrators. Yes, RfA is "broken". That is what needs to be fixed: we need a process that effectively recruits level-headed people rather than chasing them away, not a new RfA-like process for people considered not quite trustworthy enough to use all of the tools. ~ Ningauble (talk) 12:59, 27 June 2012 (UTC) "This proposal seems to rely on the idea that deletion related tools are less severe or contentious than block related tools, and do not require the same degree of trustworthy level-headedness." - No, and I'm sorry if you have been given that impression. The assertion is NOT that delete is any less requiring of trust than block or protect. The assertion is that because in the RfX request for these tools, the candidate would only be requesting delete, not block or protect, so the "tone" or "climate" of the debate should be less harsh. But it shouldn't be inferred at all that the discussion of trustworthiness for gaining delete and the other tools in this package should be any less than it normally is for RfA candidates. I would not support a proposal (much less propose one) where we grant anyone with the ability to delete who wasn't fully trustworthy with those tools and responsibilities. - jc37 13:33, 27 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose. Having read the full proposal, I must acknowledge that it's very thoughtfully written and probably more sensible than any similar proposal I've encountered. It addresses some of my usual objections and avoids others completely, but I still see no net gain. I support the unbundling of tools for which less trust is required (e.g. rollback). In my view, any user who can be trusted to delete and undelete pages can be trusted with all of the administrator tools. (Ningauble has eloquently explained why.) So while it makes sense to require a process comparable to RfA (and I realize that Jc37 recognizes the need), it doesn't make sense not to simply make qualified users administrators. As Equazcion has noted, the same elements that make the proposal less objectionable than others also defeat the purpose of establishing a new user group (by making it too similar to the administrator group). The weakest part of the proposal, in my opinion, is the "Imagine it's like forcing a conscientious objector or a pacifist to carry a gun." analogy. I'm sorry, but it simply isn't. A gun is a dangerous instrument that easily can be fired accidentally or fall into the wrong hands. Unless someone's account is compromised (and if this is likely, he/she obviously shouldn't be trusted with any of the rights in question), there's no harm in a trustworthy editor possessing unused tools. As I've commented in the past, I hate the idea of reinforcing the notion that an administrator must possess a demonstrable need for all of them (as opposed to the community's trust not to misuse them). I share Beeblebrox's concern that the proposed setup would reduce efficiency by forcing moderators (who otherwise might be administrators) to flag down admins for related tasks. Why deprive trustworthy users of tools that they might need? Unlike some, I believe that modship would be widely requested. Trustworthy editors would have little choice, as its introduction would greatly increase the already-onerous expectations at RfA. ("Oppose. You can just become a moderator instead. That way, we can easily demote you.") So while I applaud Jc37's efforts, I remain unconvinced that such a change is necessary or desirable. —David Levy 19:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC) Thank you for your comments. I agree that someone need not demonstrate a "need" for all of them. While I've found I have helped out in many ways I had not expected when requesting adminship (a truism amongst most admins I think), I still do very little with images. Let me try to clarify the gun analogy. (And perhaps using a "gun" for the analogy made things less-than-clear on my part.) See User:Guy Macon's comments under #Clarified, below. This isn't about accidents. It's whether someone wants to carry such tools and responsibilities. I appreciate that you want to say "Here, take this too, I trust you with it." But at the same time, can we not appreciate the wish of those who say: "thank you for your trust, but I don't want that, please." If we trust them, then we trust them. Let's at least get them the tools they will accept. - jc37 20:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC) This strikes me as a solution in search of a problem. I seriously doubt that many users decline to seek adminship because they need only some of the tools and are uncomfortable accepting the rest (as opposed to those who worry that the community will deny their request on this basis — a problem that we should seek to alleviate, not reinforce). There might be some (such as the Quakers mentioned), but I certainly haven't seen such a sentiment expressed often. Regardless, if that's the issue, why not simply permit administrators to decline/relinquish (and later accept, should they reconsider) the tools not included in the proposed user group? Even if a separate classification is required on the technical side, why do we need one (along with slightly different rules) on the community side? Given the fact that the selection processes would be "exactly the same as that for administrators — using the same criteria, operating on the same page", what's the point? It seems like needless redundancy (with the unintended consequences that I've cited). —David Levy 22:01, 27 June 2012 (UTC) Well, perhaps it's because by being in these discussions, and such individuals comment, but I have heard more than a few (including some who self-identified as Wikignomes) say they want nothing to do with blocking et al, but would be happy to help with content-related tasks. "Regardless, if that's the issue, why not simply permit administrators to decline/relinquish (and later accept, should they reconsider) the tools not included in the proposed user group?" - I actually have tried proposing that in several various ways - in general, the community seemed afraid that I was attempting to take block away from admins. (It seems that people sometimes hear only what they want to hear. That can include me, of course : ) That aside, it's been made clear to me (due to various reasons, including technical ones) that +sysop (what admin actually is) should not be split, and instead we should propose to create different user groups for what we want. So the hope is, this proposal will satisfy as many wants (and alleviate as many concerns) as possible, while staying within our standards and expectations of trust that such tools and responsibilities carry. - jc37 22:40, 27 June 2012 (UTC) Well, perhaps it's because by being in these discussions, and such individuals comment, but I have heard more than a few (including some who self-identified as Wikignomes) say they want nothing to do with blocking et al, but would be happy to help with content-related tasks. And that's fine. Administrators aren't obligated to block/unblock, and I strongly dislike the idea of reinforcing such a misconception, thereby encouraging opposition to trustworthy users' adminship requests on the basis that modship is available as an alternative (and includes a recall provision that adminship lacks). If prospective administrators literally want nothing to do with blocking (including the mere capability), simply permit them to decline this tool. If bureaucrats and the community at large are to apply exactly the same criteria when evaluating candidates via exactly the same process on exactly the same page, the distinction doesn't concern them. If the level of community trust required is to be identical, why shouldn't a moderator (or whatever term we use) have the option to become an administrator (as we use the term currently) immediately upon request? Why would only the inverse be possible (unless the moderator was an administrator in the past and voluntarily switched)? Contrary intentions notwithstanding, this (along with the aforementioned recall provision) certainly seems to imply that adminship is considered a "higher rank" requiring greater trust, which is exactly how the community would treat it. I actually have tried proposing that in several various ways - in general, the community seemed afraid that I was attempting to take block away from admins. The community apparently misunderstood. But as noted above, something similar (depriving trustworthy candidates of adminship because modship exists) is a likely consequence of the proposed change. That aside, it's been made clear to me (due to various reasons, including technical ones) that +sysop (what admin actually is) should not be split, and instead we should propose to create different user groups for what we want. I'm not suggesting that +sysop be split. I'm saying that it's fine to go ahead and create the new user group, but I see no valid reason for it to be treated as distinct within the Rf* process. —David Levy 23:36, 27 June 2012 (UTC) "...simply permit them to decline this tool." - I think I may be misunderstanding what you mean by the could you explain? "Why would only the inverse be possible...?" - The same reasons that (to use a past example - currently, I think that bots accounts are now considered to be an extension of the bot-owner as (roughly) tools are granted to an individual, not an account) when a bot is trusted by the community to only use the delete tool, it shouldn't be given any of the other admin permissions without going through another RfA. It has nothing to do with hierarchy and all to do with trust. Another comparison from the past: Once upon a time, RfB candidates had the option of also requesting checkuser when requesting bureaucratship. Obviously back then if you did not request CU when you initially went through RfB, it required another RfB to gain checkuser. (Since then, obviously CU is now a separate process - but a bureaucrat wishing to be a CU still has to go through two processes, though now in this case the second is called something else, it's still a community trust assessing process.) "I'm saying that it's fine to go ahead and create the new user group, but I see no valid reason for it to be treated as distinct within the Rf* process." - I think I may not be understanding this either. Because to me, that sounds like you support this proposal. - jc37 04:16, 28 June 2012 (UTC) "...simply permit them to decline this tool." - I think I may be misunderstanding what you mean by the could you explain? If an incoming administrator (or an existing one) prefers not to possess the ability to block/unblock users or protect/unprotect pages, give him/her a variant of the administrator user rights package similar or identical to the one that you propose. I don't object to that. I only object to the idea of treating it differently at RfA (or a renamed version thereof). "Why would only the inverse be possible...?" - The same reasons that (to use a past example - currently, I think that bots accounts are now considered to be an extension of the bot-owner as (roughly) tools are granted to an individual, not an account) when a bot is trusted by the community to only use the delete tool, it shouldn't be given any of the other admin permissions without going through another RfA. It has nothing to do with hierarchy and all to do with trust. I thought that we established that the level of trust required for modship would be the same as that required for adminship. (I certainly believe that it should be, which is part of why I see no point in treating it as a separate entity outside the technical end). Perhaps I've misunderstood. "I'm saying that it's fine to go ahead and create the new user group, but I see no valid reason for it to be treated as distinct within the Rf* process." - I think I may not be understanding this either. Because to me, that sounds like you support this proposal. No, I don't. I'm fine with the technical setup of one or more variants of the administrator group lacking certain permissions that admins explicitly opt to decline. I oppose the idea of holding separate discussions at RfA (or a renamed version thereof), with modship as an outcome distinct from (and/or regarded as lesser than) adminship. No matter how many new groups of this nature are created and how they're designated on the technical side, from the community's perspective, they should simply be known as "administrators". —David Levy 05:32, 28 June 2012 (UTC) I'm going to try to explain with another (likely poor) analogy. (Note, while I'm not jewish, it occurred to me that a fictionalised version of kosher-like rules might be a decent analogy.) Imagine a fictional community where there is a position in the community called "butcher". This individual has several rights and responsibilities with the community. The butcher is who mercifully kills livestock prior to buthering. And who also butchers the meat according to the applicable ordinances. And, as a community role, also doubles as a game warden, enforcing community policy on hunting and fishing seasons. Now imagine that Sol is the community's current butcher. To gain the post, he went through the community vetting process of which the primary consideration was whether the community trusted Sol to follow all their rules and ordinances when performing the responsibilities he was requesting. Well, the community has grown. And it's decided that they should have another butcher to help Sol out with the tasks. Sol feels Eli would be a suitable candidate, and so asks him if he would be interested. But Eli says that while he would be happy to help out with the butchering of the meat, and even with being a game warden, he just doesn't want the responsibilities to kill the animals. He doesn't want confusion about it later, he doesn't want that weight on his shoulders even if he's welcome to decide to not help out in that way. His request is agreed to, and Sol nominates him before the community, and it's made clear to all the community what tasks Eli would be requesting, and what ones he would not. After a long community discussion there is eventual consensus that the community trusts Eli to perform the tasks he requested. Time goes by. Over time, Eli finds that his concerns about slaying the livestock are not as much a problem for him as they were when he was younger. And he sees that Sol could really use some help in this way. So he and Sol go to the community elders and ask they they recognise that Eli can help out in this way too. After all, he went through the standard process to become a butcher, just as Sol did, so it should be uncontroversial to trust Eli with the additional responsibility. Several start to nod their heads to this, but several others note: Wait a minute, when we agreed in the community discussion to trust Eli with the tasks, it was only for the ones he requested. We individual members of the community might not have agreed if he had requested this responsibility as well. We only trusted him with these specific responsibilities. But we don't agree to granting this one without the standard community vetting process. Does he know all the proper community ordinances (rules) concerning this? This should be vetted before the community using the standard process. We members of the community feel that just giving him this responsibility without community discussion on it would be an "unorthodox" way to get this extra responsibility, it would be reckless and irresponsible and is contrary to our policies of community vetting for each of these responsibilities. In other words, every tool and related responsibility must be vetted for community trust through the standard process. If someone is approved for an abbreviated list of such tools and related responsibilities, and later wishes any additional tools and responsibilities, the standard process of community vetting for trust must be followed. No secondary standards or exceptions are permitted, regardless of what other previous processes the individual may have gone through. The process must be the same. So Eli goes through the process again. And though it's still the same standard process, he found the "tone" of it much easier. The questions and concerns only addressing the specific responsibility that he was requesting this time through. So while it was equally as tough and scrutinising, it was focused specifically on only what he was requesting. Which he found to be less stressful. This story has several possible endings. In one possible ending, the community consensus was that they felt that they could trust him with the additional responsibility. And he started helping Sol out in this new (to Eli) way. Another possible ending could be that his request for the community to grant him this extra responsibility was unsuccessful. It was determined that while that the community may trust him with the tools he previously requested, consensus was not achieved for him to gain this one. So he just continued to help out in butchering the meat and as game warden. Which he was perfectly happy to do. In the future, perhaps someone else could be found to help out, or perhaps Eli might decide later to request again. I hope this better explains. And note, besides this having prior precedent (as I noted above), I believe this was the restriction noted by the WMF. Same standard process as adminship, no second standard. - jc37 15:21, 28 June 2012 (UTC) I sincerely appreciate that you took the time to write that, but it doesn't address my concerns. It's been stated (unless I've misunderstood) that modship would require the same level of trust as adminship, with bureaucrats and the community at large applying the same criteria when evaluating candidates via the same process on the same page. Is that correct or incorrect? The above analogy seems to imply the latter, as you refer to different criteria and a potential lack of trust to take on the additional responsibilities (analogous to tools). I believe this was the restriction noted by the WMF. Same standard process as adminship, no second standard. Right, with "the same criteria". You appear to contradict this above. —David Levy 18:54, 28 June 2012 (UTC) Oh well, I thought it might help better clarify. As for the rest I specifically asked for clarification, and I believe that clarification was exactly as I noted above: "And note [...], I believe this was the restriction noted by the WMF. Same standard process as adminship, no second standard." Regardless, as I noted much further up this thread, you are of course welcome to your opinion, and of course can oppose this proposal at your discretion. I merely have been attempting to clarify. - jc37 20:47, 28 June 2012 (UTC) I understand that you're attempting to provide clarification, and I genuinely appreciate your efforts. Likewise, I'm sincerely attempting to ensure that my understanding of the proposal is accurate. To that end, can you please provide a direct response to my question? It's been stated (unless I've misunderstood) that modship would require the same level of trust as adminship, with bureaucrats and the community at large applying the same criteria when evaluating candidates. [...] Is that correct or incorrect? If it is correct, I don't understand how this jibes with your above analogy (which appears to suggest that modship confirmation would rely on different criteria and require less trust than adminship). —David Levy 22:07, 28 June 2012 (UTC) I thought I had, just above. I'm nearing the point of wondering if we're talking past each other in some way. - jc37 01:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC) That's my concern as well, which is why I seek to alleviate any possible confusion. You referred to "the same standard process as adminship" (emphasis added), so this much is clear. But what about the criteria and level of trust? Previous messages (including that of Philippe Beaudette, who explicitly mentioned "the same criteria") led me to believe that they would be the same too, but your analogy seems to suggest otherwise. —David Levy 01:37, 29 June 2012 (UTC) I feel I've responded to you about this several times, but I'll try again. Let me express an answer from my opinion, rather than from the perspective of clarifying the proposal, and maybe that will help make it clearer. I do not want someone to be granted the ability to delete, block, or any of the other potentially greatly disruptive tools without full vetting by the community. I am very uncomfortable with the various proposals over the years which have suggested unbundling such tools to be given out at admin discretion. Our common practice on this has been community discussion closed by a bureaucrat. I cannot speak for other RfA commenters, but I believe our standards for entrusting an individual to be granted such tools should be as scrutinising as ever. As for my comments about how RfA would have less of a nasty tone, one can be tough in assessing someone's contribs and such without being a jerk about it. It has been conveyed many times that part of this is due to fear. I know you've already read my opinion, and have seen how you disagree with one point of it. It suddenly occurs to me that that could be the difficulty in our mutual understanding. If so, then I'll happily leave you to your opinion. I have no want to debate your opinion with you in the oppose section. You are of course entitled to your opinion. - jc37 02:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC) [continued at Wikipedia talk:Village pump (technical)/Proposal by Jc37/Side discussion] —David Levy 20:23, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose per DGG and others -- a process that is in almost every way identical to the RfA should result in an admin. This will not help with backlogs. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 00:47, 28 June 2012 (UTC) As I have explained several times, I personally reject the idea of me having the power to block users, but I would apply for the ability to edit protected pages. Logically, it cannot be true that having one more person who can work on backlogs will not help with backlogs. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:42, 28 June 2012 (UTC) I respect your stance, however uncommon it may be. But I believe that the ability to edit protected pages requires as high a level of trust as any other administrator right does, so I see no reason to establish a separate non-technical designation for it (not that this matches what's been proposed). If such a setup were deemed feasible (despite limitations that might be regarded as problematic), why not simply go through RfA, become an administrator (if the community deems you sufficiently trustworthy) and accept a technical variant of the package without the blocking tool? —David Levy 07:16, 28 June 2012 (UTC) I completely agree that the ability to edit protected pages requires as high a level of trust as any other administrator right does and I would fully expect (and the WMF requires) that I would have to pass the same Rfc as an admin with blocking powers. The technical variant of the package without the blocking tool would be fine with me, but I can not and will not accept the title of "Administrator" as long as any Wikipedia page says that Administrators can block users. That's the whole point of rejecting the ability to block; I have seen again and again administrators get treated differently than non-administrators by newbies. Yes, WP:INVOLVED clearly says that the admin has no admin powers in a discussion he is involved with, but pretty much every other website on earth has individuals with various titles that regularly drop the banhammer on anyone who disagrees with them. You can't fight a public perception like that. Put those three together -- no power over users, ability to edit protected pages, etc. and no title that implies a power over a user -- and you end up with this proposal. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:52, 28 June 2012 (UTC) The technical variant of the package without the blocking tool would be fine with me, but I can not and will not accept the title of "Administrator" as long as any Wikipedia page says that Administrators can block users. In the hypothetical scenario to which I referred, those pages would be updated to indicate that administrators may accept or decline the tool. That's the whole point of rejecting the ability to block; I have seen again and again administrators get treated differently than non-administrators by newbies. Yes, WP:INVOLVED clearly says that the admin has no admin powers in a discussion he is involved with, but pretty much every other website on earth has individuals with various titles that regularly drop the banhammer on anyone who disagrees with them. You can't fight a public perception like that. That's a valid point. On many occasions, I've had to explain to users that my opinions counted no more than theirs did (so their deference was uncalled-for). This problem justifies renaming "administrator" to something lacking that connotation (as has been suggested on multiple occasions), not splitting off a separate class of user incapable of bullying fellow editors, thereby reinforcing the misunderstanding that administrators possess such an entitlement. Come to think of it, in many forums, the users dropping banhammers are called "moderators", so the confusion might only be exacerbated anyway. Whatever term we use, I only object to the idea of splitting off separate tiers. Whether we have "administrators", "moderators", "janitors" or "foobars", no non-technical distinction should be drawn based on whether the individual possesses all of the current admin tools, and no special rules or penalties should be enacted if he/she chooses not to. —David Levy 18:54, 28 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose I'm all for unbundling the tools as well and giving as wide an access to tools as possible. However, being able to delete and undelete pages, including being able to delete specific revisions and being able to see deleted text and revisions (with all of its privacy implications) are tools that require enormous community trust. Indeed, to my mind, those are the tools that are granted at to admins, not the tool to block or unblock someone. If someone has the community trust to be granted the ability to delete other people revisions, or see deleted revisions, then they can have met the requisites for adminship and should be granted that right. --RA (talk) 00:40, 29 June 2012 (UTC) As far as I can tell, nothing in your comments above oppose the proposal as written. Indeed, if I read your comments correctly, I think I would mostly agree with them. Is there perhaps something I could help clarify? - jc37 00:47, 29 June 2012 (UTC) Rannpháirtí anaithnid stated that he/she opposes the proposal on the basis that access to the tools in question requires the full level of trust that we place in administrators and he/she believes that individuals meeting this criterion should simply be made administrators. I agree. —David Levy 01:15, 29 June 2012 (UTC) (edit conflict) Like, David Levy said, I explained my opposition, but I'll express it another way if you want. There's two substantive scenarios I see: (a) someone who isn't trusted enough to protect pages but wants to be able to delete them (!?); and (b) someone who wants to be able to delete other users' contributions but wouldn't be trusted not to block them (!?). Either way, I can't see it happening. If you can't be trusted with the other tools, you can't be trusted with delete. And if you're trusted with delete, then take the lot. While I accept the spirit of the proposal, I don't think its fully thought through. As I see it, it imagines the delete tool as a lesser tool, relatively uncontroversial, not so open to abuse, doesn't bring anyone into controversy, and limited mainly to AfDs. It's not. Delete is a tool that allows someone in its possession to delete anything: articles they disagree with, or think are shoddy, revisions they don't like, comments that show them in a bad light. It allows them to hide or mask their own contributions to evade detection in an edit war. Someone posts an argument on a talk page that refutes a POV you are pushing? Poof! Gone. Never said. That's a damn powerful tool. Finally, the hypothetical "pacifist" example is bogus IMO. If you don't want to use an admin tool, you don't have to. But comparing the block tool to a weapon, is bad, bad, bad. --RA (talk) 01:34, 29 June 2012 (UTC) Thank you for clarifying. Your presumption of my opinion of the deletion tool is incorrect. I've re-affirmed it many times now (which makes me wonder if it's something that's unclear in the proposal). As for "bogus", I'm sorry, but my experience doesn't bear out that opinion. There are even those on this page who have affirmed their want to not have the ability to block. You might also check out Guy Macon's comments in #Clarified. below. As for the rest, you are welcome to your opinion, of course, thank you for clarifying. - jc37 01:45, 29 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose I'm in favour of different levels of tools authorisation. The main problem of this proposal is one of organisation and process This user-right group would be granted through the same process as adminship (RfA) and bureaucratship (RfB)', so it would expand the number and repeat the considerable problems of the RfA. In effect it is going to multiple RfA type discussion with the resulting lose of good editors, create more friction(drama), create more divisions and bad karma all around. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 07:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose I simply can't see users who would pass this not being able to pass the full monty & I'd prefer those users to have the full set of tools rather than half a set. They would be more useful to the project that way. Its comparatively rare to fail an RFA for a blocking related reason as oppose to not being unable to assess consensus or CSD criteria - which are probably the most common reason to fail an RFA. In short, I can't see the point of this. If backlogs at AFD are considered a problem I'll be willing to go get my bit back and start closing again. Comments on that on my talk please. Spartaz Humbug! 12:19, 29 June 2012 (UTC) For at least one "point of this", you might check out Guy Macon's comments in #Clarified, below. - jc37 16:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC) No, that is not at all reassuring. Spartaz Humbug! 19:57, 29 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose per DGG. If the process is going to be the same as RfA (actually at the same venue according to Phillipe) and the candidate passes, we may as well actually make them admins. SpinningSpark 23:50, 29 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose per DGG. If this is similar to RfA, then make it RfA - assessing whether an article is worthy of deletion is often a more difficult task then assessing whether a user needs to be blocked - and you enable the more difficult task now through an RfA-like process, where many editors can't pass the RfA at the moment, mainly because of the importance on XfD-discussions. No, I don't think it is going to work, or that it is a good idea. --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose I might support a technical package that just includes e.g. Filemover and the ability to edit Protected templates, granted via a similar process to the granting of Rollback, but I think that un/deletion is something that requires that the community trust in the user's discretion. I know that Moderators would go through an RfX on this proposal, and so theoretically be subject to the same scrutiny as Sysop candidates, but I fear that in practice the userright may be quite obscure to most people and so the RfM (or whatever) would attract fewer editors and hence Moderators not really be subject to Sysop-level scrutiny. It Is Me Here t / c 08:39, 30 June 2012 (UTC) These would be done out of the RfA page similar to how the page shares the RfB process. - jc37 09:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Hesitant oppose. I am in favour of unbundling the admin toolset — for instance, the vandal fighter user right —; however, this particular user right contains abilities that I would not give out freely to non-admins. I'm referring to deleterevision, deletedtext, browsearchive. These are very controversial abilities and should be restricted to "full" admins. Furthermore, I see little point in having to go through a process similar to WP:RFA to be granted only a part of the admin toolset. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose Basically as per DGG. Deletion is the tool that I would least like to get given out more than other admin tools and should be as hard to get as the ability to block. There is nobody who I would support giving the right to delete to, that I would not support giving the full admin toolkit to. I am not opposed to breaking out other tools from the admin right but just not deletion. Davewild (talk) 11:08, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose for many of the reasons expressed above, despite having been in favour of unbundling the user rights for many years now. The fundamental problem is with the RfA-like process, which will be just like RfA without the benefits of lifetime tenure and few excluded tools like protect, which makes no sense at all as protecting is often a sensible alternative to blocking. I simply don't buy the WMF's position on the necessity of enduring an RfA-like process before being allowed to view deleted material. It's quite simply lazy to dogmatically insist that the only way to assess trustworthiness is to be harangued, prodded and poked at RfA for a week. Malleus Fatuorum 12:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Agreed regarding the WMF part. It makes no sense to me that the RFA process would keep the WMF covered from a legal standpoint. I see nothing particularly legally 'protective' about it, and I see the reluctance regarding deleted material as nothing more than panic-induced. If/when the WMF encounters a legal issue with an admin and deleted material, the "but they went through RfA" defense will not bode well in court. Equazcion (talk) 12:36, 30 Jun 2012 (UTC) Can you please turn asterixes here into a numbered list ("#") for convenience? I'd like to see the numbers, without having to count. I think what needs to be looked at first is the RFA process instead. For example, we lack a similar discussion about the standard RFA questions (designed to be answered eloquently without saying anything of substance). Presumably, if the RFA formula was more user friendly, there would be more administrators around to help us with content. Poeticbent talk 16:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC) I think that especially as this is a debate of great importance, the lack of numbering will help ensure that participants (and the eventual closer) base their comments on the weight of the arguments. That said, all that is wrong with RfA has been extensively discussed throughout most of last year at WP:RFA2011 with an entire sub-section dedicated to the issue of the RfA questions, including researched data. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:29, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose – When I saw the proposal on my watchlist, I came here fully expecting to support it. The ability to give trusted editors some extra tools without requiring a full RfA makes sense to me. For my own sake, I could really use the right to edit protected pages for working with TFL blurbs, but don't have a strong desire to run through the gauntlet that is RfA and don't need the other new tools that come with adminship. However, if an RfA-like process is to be required, it defeats the purpose, as Equazcion said above. Anyone who would submit themselves to an RfA-like process for a few tools may as well go through RfA itself. I wish the ability to see deleted pages could be dropped from the tool set on offer so that we wouldn't have a second RfA process on our hands. One is enough. Giants2008 (Talk) 16:35, 30 June 2012 (UTC) If these rights are supposed to be granted through the RfA process, and comprise (as far as I can tell) most admin rights except blocking and protecting, then there is very little point in making them separate from RfA at all. If there are too few admins, we need to fix the RfA process.  Sandstein  18:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC) To clarify: There are 17 user-rights in this proposed group. Per Special:ListGroupRights, there are 52 (plus two more to add and remove certain user-rights) in administrator. - jc37 18:45, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose - The supposition this is based on -- that there are many would-be admins who do not apply because they don't want to be involved with blocking -- seems to me extremely doubtfull; and, in any case, no admin is required to block anyone. This being the case, having a seperate level of "sub-admins" is of dubious utility. The WMF-imposed requirement that candidates go through the exact same RfA process is simply the icing on the cake: without a different level of trustworthiness to fulfill, "moderators" might as well be admins anyway. The effort that's being put into this proposal would be better off apllied to determining how to fix RfA, which, I believe, is the primary reason why possible admins do not try to become admins. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:51, 30 June 2012 (UTC) I used to do a lot (!) of fixing in error categories and templates, and if this were available three years ago, I would have done a lot more. Even now I often need to edit templates, and can't do it because they are protected. Debresser (talk) 20:01, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose. " Forcing people to accept certain tools which they do not want simply because we think they can be trusted with them is simply wrong in my opinion. " — Jc37 Jc37 uses the analogy of forcing a pacifist to carry a gun. I am unconvinced that potential RfA candidates are refusing to step forward because they only want part of the package. Is there any evidence for this? Guy Macon implies that he would want to edit protected pages, but not have the other tools. However even with the proposed moderator group, Guy Macon only wants one tool from several. That's no better than going for full adminship. The gun analogy doesn't seem to hold, especially when misuse of a gun carries far more serious consequences than misuse of administrator tools. Axl ¤ [Talk] 23:03, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Re: "Guy Macon implies that he would want to edit protected pages, but not have the other tools." If you believe that I have implied this, I apologize for being unclear. I would want to have all the tools that do not give me power over other users, with the possible exception of reading pages that have been deleted by other users -- I don't care one way or the other on that one. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:15, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Guy, thank you for correcting my misunderstanding. Have you refused RfA purely because you don't want the block button? Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:19, 1 July 2012 (UTC) "Is there any evidence for this?" Since you ask, while there have indeed been several comments in similar discussions in the past, I suppose the easiest answer would be to check out several commenters in the support section. There's also a comment from an OTRS person here; and Quinn1's comments further down the page; and Guy macon left some comments here as well. I'll leave it to you to assess the various comments. - jc37 23:17, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose proposer is against the counterproposal and wants a full RfA, so I opppose. CyanGardevoir (used EDIT!) 23:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Oppose. As the proposal notes, the new position has "great potential for disruption" if misused. I don't believe that simply removing block and protect will reduce the high standards that the community looks for at RfX (and indeed it shouldn't). Instead, I feel that the proposal is likely to backfire, and push the bar for full adminship far higher. While a process to remove the user right will go some way to alleviating this concern, and is a step forward, it would be more useful to focus our attention on trying to implement such a policy for administrators. --W. D. Graham 07:09, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose – if an editor is trusted to close contentious debates, then they should be trusted to block and protect as well. If they don't want to make use of some admin powers, it's their business. Why should a RfA-like process with similar choosing criteria result in reduced admin powers? Finally, what would happen if a "moderator" wished to get involved into blocking and protecting in the future? Another RfA? – Kosm1fent 07:21, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Deletion is one of the most contentious tools and one of the most damaging is misused. I'd like to see an editor go through RfA before getting it. Take out delete, and I may support for a trial period. --Michig (talk) 10:34, 1 July 2012 (UTC) If a user is going for this through a full RfA and the same criteria, why not go directly to administrator? Delete is just as damaging as block (if misused). ~~Ebe123~~ → report 11:43, 1 July 2012 (UTC) I oppose this proposal because it seems like a bad idea to me. DS (talk) 11:52, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Strong Oppose There appears a consistent trend towards those who've gotten Admin rights to continually preclude those rights from others. It perpetuates a caste system here on WP and it drives away editors who could add enormous value. There are already enough different levels of rights and the perpetuation of the notion that Admins are superior to other editors is unhealthy for the Project. I am in full support for the need for Admins and Bureaucrats, because the privileges should be bestowed only to those who've proven themselves and who have the support from the editors to gain the additional tool kit. If someone has proved themselves worthy of the majority of the admin toolkit, there's no reason to not give them the entire thing. To treat them otherwise merely creates another differentiator between the Admins and the rest of the Wikipedians. If Admins are so overworked as some complain, I'd think they'd want as many Admins as possible. Certainly there are thousands of other editors who are not only willing, but capable and have proved themselves. Many hands makes light work - but there's no need for an additional "lesser" level. Vertium (talk to me) 13:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose - many reasons, all discussed to death above. I appreciate there are users out there who would like some tools in the admin package and not others, but I honestly think that the number of users out there who a) refuse to apply for the admin package because it includes certain tools they don't want AND b) are willing to undergo what has been described as a "full RfA" for access to the "lite" package, must be very small. If someone doesn't want to use certain tools in the admin package, they can ignore them. It's a lot of hassle to create a new user group for the small number of people who can't or won't simply not use the tools they don't want to use and want the Wikimedia software to do this for them instead. That's all this would be, if the criteria for adminship and 'modship' would be the same. Mato (talk) 15:31, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose Due to the fact that you would have to go through the same process that an admin would. Other permissions do not go through the same process that adminship does, so neither should the moderator permission. "Moderator" should have it's own request page and maybe requirements. Dan653 (talk) 20:06, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose, again because of the WMF's requirement for an RFX-like process. Furthermore, based on my 7+ years of being an admin here, I strongly disagree with the analogy of the admin tools. IMO, deletion is by far a more dangerous "weapon" than either block or protect. I myself have received far more complaints regarding my deletion discussion closures, prod closures, and speedy deletions than either my blocks or protections combined. As DGG previously stated above, "being responsible for removing a contributors article is the single most sensitive act a wikipedian can do". Thus, I remain unconvinced that this new user group will effectively make a major effect on the backlogs. In my observations, many of the discussions that end up being backlogged (especially on AFD) are the debates that are the most contentious, where consensus is borderline, and which usually require an admin to make a tough decision that will usually generate complaints. Because polling is not a substitute for discussion, determining consensus in many of these deletion discussions tends to be far more subjective than going through a page history or user's contributions and counting the number of reverts, vandalism, copyvios, personal attacks, etc. to determine whether to block or protect. If a significant number of admins are already avoiding to close these contentious discussions because they want to prevent possible burnout, many of those in this new user group will likewise, especially if they want to go through a second RFA-like process to get the full set of admin tools. And don't get me started on how some speedy deletion criteria like WP:CSD#A7 has been historically controversial, and how it may affect the actions of this new user group too. Zzyzx11 (talk) 23:59, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose. Require an RfA process to attain admin-lite tools? Nominate your candidates for administrator. Tiderolls 02:40, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose for a number of reasons. There are many times situations arise in utilizing the admin tools for content-related purposes that it may be necessary either to block an abusive user or protect a page. Like Smokey Joe, I agree that there is an intimate linkage between content and blocking, and this is something of which a Moderator classification would not be mindful. I am also genuinely concerned that approving this new classification might further limit both the number and success rate of future RfAs. Too many users will default to claiming a user isn't ready for admin tools and recommend they try going for this new classification instead; standards that may now (by many users' standards) seem overly-strict would become even more so, and adding what may soon be deemed by the community as an unofficial prerequisite would make the RfA process even more stringent down the road. Further, echoing the sentiments of Zzyzx11, I have been an administrator for almost 6 years, and in that time, the largest number of concerns and questions seem to arise when it comes to deletion of articles/content - not with blocking. Michael (talk) 07:23, 2 July 2012 (UTC) We need to stop being so picky at RfA, not create workarounds to what seems to be the real issue (lack of admins). That aside, I've never seen the reason to break up the rights. Rjd0060 (talk) 10:24, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose, reluctantly. I agree with the above comment; it seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Deb (talk • contribs) Oppose The damage of a bad block is easily undone; the damage of inappropriate content deletion is significant. If a candidate has to pass an Rfa they should have the judgement to the appropriate tool for the job. Nobody Ent 12:36, 2 July 2012 (UTC) The damage of a bad block can never be undone, except in a rather meaningless technical sense. Malleus Fatuorum 13:23, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose. I don't see the point of running through the same process as RfA for less tools, unless we subscribe to the idea that "less tools means less trust and therefore more support" - which I don't. I would be neutral, but I feel this admin-lite proposal would significantly stand in the way of a different unbundling proposal, which I could support. This is a solution in need of a problem. WormTT(talk) 14:27, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Numbered Oppose per concerns about viewing deleted material and undelete powers. I would support (and have so far read no arguments against) a permission allowing us to edit protected pages. The next person to remove my number should get blocked. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:58, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose for myriad reasons ranging from procedural to semantic. It will inevitably become a required half-step for prospective admins. It would needlessly complicate RFA. If the backlog of discussion closures is the problem, improve the process. They would be called moderators, but not moderating anything; if you don't want the responsibility of the "gun" (to use the terminology of the proposal) then content yourself with the title of janitor. If you don't trust yourself to have a tool and not use it, I don't trust you to have any tools. I could go on and on, but I think that will suffice. Kafziel Complaint Department: Please take a number 18:14, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose; the idea is sound in principle, but the Foundation's requirement that the same process be used for this group as would be for "full" admins removes much of the impetus of creating it: making a lighter process for editors we trust with content decisions (and content decision only). I'm not convinced by the pacifist argument; I've yet to meet an administrator who feels compelled to block editors (and, indeed, there are active administrators who've never blocked an editor) – or meet someone who didn't run for adminship because it would give them access to blocking. Whenever I've seen a capable editor who didn't want to run for adminship, it was always caused by the RFA process itself (whether it be distaste for the politicking perceived around the process, or because of the apparent viciousness thereof). — Coren (talk) 18:49, 2 July 2012 (UTC) I think that's a good summary of why this proposal would solve nothing at all. Like you, I can only imagine the number of editors who would currently refuse an invitation to RfA because they don't want access to a tool they would never use anyway to be infinitesimally small. This is obviously not the place to discuss it, but there's one fundamental problem with RfA that very few if any seem to have recognised, and it's got absolutely nothing to do with all the incivility, politicking, and general distaste for the standard of discourse there; it's much more fundamental. Malleus Fatuorum 19:07, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Well then, where is the place to discuss it? Or are you just leaving it hanging here? Specs112 t c 19:51, 2 July 2012 (UTC) I'm obliged to leave it hanging here, as I'm topic banned from discussing RfA. Malleus Fatuorum 20:31, 2 July 2012 (UTC) It certainly is interesting seeing posts that imply that I do not exist. Never met met someone who didn't run for adminship because it would give them access to blocking? I am someone who refuses to run for adminship because it would give me access to blocking but who would run for moderator. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:15, 2 July 2012 (UTC) There's no implication that you don't exist, simply that you're a one-off, or very nearly so. Which is a good thing isn't it? Malleus Fatuorum 19:17, 2 July 2012 (UTC) "The best thing about a Tigger is, that I'm the only one!" (From Winnie the Pooh) --Guy Macon (talk) 19:31, 2 July 2012 (UTC) That quote doesn't have anything to do with anything. Specs112 t c 19:51, 2 July 2012 (UTC) I have certainly not stated that no such editor can exist, but that I've yet to meet one. Without commenting on your suitability (which would require that I actually knew you, for one), you are most certainly very much an outlier rather than the norm. — Coren (talk) 21:08, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose My view is similar to several here - I support some rights being unbundled from the admin pack (most notably the ability to semi-protect and to edit fully protected pages), but the level of bureaucracy is going to be similar to RfA, only for the person to have to go through an actual RfA if they want to go up to admin. I think it's the experience of a fair few active people using admin tools (and especially if you survey those that have experienced burnout!) that use of admin tools under whatever name can result in extremely contentious disagreements with very determined people, and I think you'd end up with a significant number of these "sub-admins" never being able to pass an RfA. I don't see it as attracting those who see the process itself as a trial of fire (see Coren's comment above). Orderinchaos 20:50, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose The delete button is equally (if not more) dangerous/powerful than the block button. You can go around deleting pages from CAT:CSD all day and no one would notice. It's nearly impossible to block someone without a lengthy ANI discussion and at least 5 editors coming to your talk page to start a recall petition. I see no reason why someone who otherwise isn't suitable for adminship would be a good candidate for the delete button. -Scottywong| gossip _ 21:24, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose - I don't like the idea of admins or any other class of user having any more influence on content than any other contributor. Regardless of intent or wording, or whether or not this proposal gives anyone more control over content than anyone else, it seems like it would encourage changes in that direction. Tom Harrison Talk 21:54, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose - I share similar concerns of Scottywong. I don't see the need for this type of user group, and I find it's distinction (in terms of user trust level) still too vague for implementation. Lord Roem (talk) 00:28, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose - If we have to run mods through the same RfA process, then this is pointless. Plus, we also have the undelete problem. So, I oppose. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 00:57, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose as WP:NOTBURO. Creating a class of users that goes through all the same rigors as an admin and gains only a fraction of the rights is completely unnecessary. If someone wants to be an admin and not use all their rights, that's their prerogative. Creating a separate class of user for this has a way of adding instruction creep and confusion (so wait, you're a moderator, not an admin, what does that mean?) for no additional benefit to the encyclopedia. I'm not opposed to creating a truly different class of user if there's a proven need for it. But a principle of simplicity is that similar things should be treated similarly, and different things should be treated differently. You're trying to treat similar things differently, which is where the unnecessary bureaucracy comes from. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:18, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Bold text: What Orderinchaos (and others) said. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:22, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Hey, MZM! I was wondering when you'd show up to oppose : ) It isn't a discussion on user-rights without you here : ) (For the peanut gallery - Nope, not clarifying anything, and not responding to a thing here. so I'm breaking my own rule. : p MZM and I have had lots of discussions about a lot of things over several years now, and while I won't speak for him, I'm fairly sure he knows I personally respect his opinion (and btw, many others on this page as well, of course), and anyway just had to say hi - I know, I know, I could have dropped a note on his talk page, but oh well : ) - jc37 04:28, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Hi there. Good to see you too. :-) And thanks for all your hard work on this. I know how draining shepherding these proposals can be. As I see it, the real underlying problem here is a lack of flexibility in MediaWiki's current user permissions architecture. I think the approach to take here is to resolve that technical hurdle first. That is, local bureaucrats should have the ability to create arbitrary user groups consisting of arbitrary user rights, much in the same way that stewards can now create global user groups with arbitrary user rights (e.g., Special:GlobalGroupPermissions/founder). I suppose this would also include the ability to define who can assign or remove these new groups (some groups can be viral, others can be assigned only by administrators, etc.). Once this technical hurdle is cleared and it's no longer such a pain-in-the-ass to add or remove groups, I think the opposition and bureaucracy for such additions would greatly diminish. And eventually you'd see the abolishment of groups that shouldn't exist (such as having a separate group for file moving, while allowing anyone to move nearly any other page...) and the consolidation of specialized groups into more generic and broader groups ("rollbacker" would transition into a "vandal fighter" group or whatever). --MZMcBride (talk) 04:39, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Despite what I've been accused of here there and elsewhere, I really don't like the idea of the deletion tools just packaged up and handed out like candy. So I have to say, that idea scares me, not a small bit : ) - jc37 04:45, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose Regardless of the proposer's intent, people will treat this as "less than admin, so less scrutiny required." This worries me, as discussed above. If there are enough people with concerns about having access to the blocking tool - and I can't imagine that there are, a few anecdotal examples aside - I suppose the creation of a lesser rights that admins can "downgrade" to might be okay, though. At any rate, the deprecation of filemover should be a separate proposal, not part of this one. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 05:18, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose - confusing for new editors. If you pass a RfA for this, why not adminship? Has any admin stated that they would like to be 'downgraded' to this junior moderator/janitor status? Ephebi (talk) 10:02, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose. Not in favour of this given the WMF's caveat that it effectively be equal to RfA. Just go straight to RfA then. —Strange Passerby (t × c) 10:48, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Stong Oppose Utterly pointless thanks to WMF. How about we as a community ignore their little caveat? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 14:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC) oppose Deletion is at least as a serious and final act as blocking, and should only be available to those with the highest level of trust, i.e. administrators. More generally I can imagine all sorts of problems this would result in, and can't really see the problem it will solve.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 14:48, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose (moved from support). I would support this if it didn't involve a RfA-like process. If the deletion-related tools need to be removed from the bundle, so be it; it would still be very useful for wikignomes to be able to edit protected pages, move pages more efficiently, reupload files, etc. --Waldir talk 15:25, 3 July 2012 (UTC) Neutral I think I'm generally in favour of unbundling of the tools, and also believes having certain rights available to non-admins (as defined currently) would benefit the project. The problem however with the current proposal having it as an RfX type rights (without fully unbundling sysop and it becoming multiple rights group) is that intended or not, it will become a de facto mandatory step before a full RfA. Due to the rights in this proposal and the comments here, I don't see the standard the community will require for it to be much if any lower than current RFA. RFA would then be asking for so much experience with moderator on top of the current expected standard. The standard expected for sysop is already too high (IMO), we certainly don't need to make it even more difficult. KTC (talk) 07:16, 26 June 2012 (UTC) Those last two sentences are precisely the point KTC. My standards for this as it stands would be no lower than for RfA, because successful candidates would be able to make contentious XfD calls (I suppose there is DRV, although in my experience when we go there we simply double check that no-one has been murdered). This shouldn't be the case, because in practise it will lead to higher RfA requirements. Knowingly ensuring that the community will hold candidates to the same standards as we already do at RfA, for less potential benefit, defeats the object of having a third bundle. It could indeed prove to be a net negative. It's for that reason that I am vocally opposing for as long as there is any question of these users closing contentious XfDs. —WFC— 12:14, 26 June 2012 (UTC) I understand the concern. But I don't think that the request process for this will have that "tone". Just looking at this page, see how editors are describing the ability to block/protect as having "the hammer", or "having power over other editors". While I'm not commenting on the accuracy of those terms, it's more than a hint that a request for adminship which does not include block/protect is likely to have less of a (what someone in this page called) "nasty" tone. There is an RfA right now for someone that (until the first oppose) was considered by the commenters as trustworthy. The first oppose? Concerning protect. So now an RfX for this package would only have the issues dealing with the tools and responsibilities in this package, and would not have those that involve block/protect. So those commenters who have such image/sense of behaviour-related tools and responsibilities like block/protect as "the hammer", will not have that as a reason to oppose, or even to question (grill) the candidate over. So yes, I feel fairly secure in the idea that while these editors should receive a thorough looking over by commenters per the standard RfX process, the looking over will be focused on the specific tools and responsibilities given. - jc37 14:11, 26 June 2012 (UTC) I wholeheartedly support the idea behind this proposal. However, I feel that 'moderatorship' will eventually turn into a de facto requirement for adminship and will simply become an extra step in the hierarchy of tools.EngineerFromVega★ 13:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC) Isn't that a good thing? Regards, SunCreator (talk) 06:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC) No. KTC (talk) 20:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC) Neutral for now. I lean to support this but my reservation is that it sets a direction in a big way which is likely irrversible and that few will understand and is not part of the proposal. It will lead to a structured hierarchy. Admin is not a big deal will be thrown out, of course you could argue it is already a big deal and that it's accepting what is already the case, but is the community ready to go there? I dunno, hence some reservations. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 06:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC) Moved to oppose because of RfA like process. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 07:12, 29 June 2012 (UTC) I understand the intent behind this, but I also think it will cause more issues in practice than necessary. Overall, I am undecided. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC) I like the way this proposal is structured and the spirit of its goal. I also think valid concerns have been raised, and see the potential for counter-intended results, like Mod becoming de facto required for Admin. IMO the Mod package should be available for candidates who attain less support at RfA than is required for Admin, yet sufficient for the lessor package. Perhaps for example: 65-74=Mod, 75-84=bureaucrat discretion, 85-100=Admin StringdaBrokeda (talk) 18:13, 30 June 2012 (UTC) While "less support" sounds nice at first, I believe it is contrary to the WMF clarification. But it's of course worth discussing on the discussion page if you would like. - jc37 18:17, 30 June 2012 (UTC)- jc37 18:17, 30 June 2012 (UTC) Growing backlogs in admin-related tasks worry me, so if this proposal aims to solve at least some of that then I'm in favor. But basically as per Beeblebrox I'm skeptical that many would flock to a process with the same standards as RfA for only "half-admin" status. Nor do I like the idea of providing another 'trophy' for users to chase after. I'm willing to give it a try it if things get even worse with the admin'ing situation, but as in other proposals of this type, I remain on the fence. -- œ™ 03:28, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Neutral - The RfA process does not suit these rights; there would be an overflow of people requesting this from the beginning and who would comment on this? --J (t) 15:17, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Neutral (moved from support) - I think this would help the wiki, but I'm not sure if it would help with the admin situation. It would be a step in the right direction to unbundle things, but the WMF statement leaves me with doubts about how this would work; it wouldn't solve the problems with RFA that it's trying to solve. Specs112 t c 19:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Neutral. I appreciate the work someone has gone through to put this all together. And it does seem to create a path by which may recruit more admins, instead of going from "unknown" to "admin" in one fell swoop. I can't see that I would use these extra tools. Occasionally, I need a block, but can either request it or someone else has already done so. And that's not included anyway. Most of the other tools seem mostly arcane to me. Student7 (talk) 13:54, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Discussion on the proposal

• I welcome everyone's thoughts on this, and if anything seems unclear, please feel free to ask me to explain/clarify - jc37 16:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

• I think this makes a lot of sense. I've just returned from a fairly lengthy wikibreak after dealing with some family health issues, and am finding it to still be frustrating at times. I am an OTRS member, and I often need to ping admins in order to see what a deleted file was or what the text on a deleted page was. It isn't that large of an inconvenience, but this proposal would streamline my work along with that of any other non-admin OTRS agents. I also think that some may not approve of just giving the ability to delete pages, files and revisions out to people just because they are on OTRS. I would humbly like to suggest perhaps a second user group for non-admin OTRS agents, with just the ability to view deleted files, pages, and undelete both as well. Anything that needs to be deleted or the like could be given to an admin, or an OS if the situation calls for it. Just my 2c. Regards, MacMed^talk_stalk 17:19, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

• OTRS sounds like a nice example of non-admins who are trying to help out with (among other things) content-related tasks. I don't see why an OTRS helper couldn't request this package from the community. - jc37 17:31, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

• I think you miss-characterize the outcome of close related discussions. Only in the case of deletion discussion closing is there the outcome that non-admins should avoid closing close or contentious discussions. To the best of my knowledge, the contentious exception to non-admin closes has never extended to non-deletion discussions. Monty₈₄₅ 00:35, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

  You're correct that I was indeed referring to XfD discussions. See also: this. Though I believe that this has also been affirmed for some others, like some RfCs and RMs. That said, my intent was in no way to mischaracterise. - jc37 00:43, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

  I didn't mean to suggest any malfeasance on your part, just raise the issue. There is little documentation on closing outside the Deletion Process, and virtually none when it comes to non-admins, can you point to where an otherwise good close of anything other then a deletion discussion was reversed on the grounds that the closer was a non-admin? I just want to avoid perpetuating any misconceptions regarding the limits on non-admin closes. Monty₈₄₅ 00:53, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

  I'd have to look, but I'm fairly sure that it's not uncommon to see non-admin contentious RM closes reverted. (It's one of the things that has been discussed at WT:MRV.) And I recently helped close an RfC where they specifically asked not only for an admin to close it, but 3 admins to close it. So it really depends and seems to be on a case-by-case basis. - jc37 01:06, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

• By what stretch of the imagination is this a "Technical" proposal rather than a "Policy" proposal? If one wishes to change the policy that only administrators may use these tools, then the technical means of doing so is a straightforward addition to user group settings. ~ Ningauble (talk) 21:26, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

  I suppose if we want to get technical about it, it's a proposal for a technical change, which is designed to be in accordance with policy.

  So it kinda falls under all three VPs.

  That aside, the initial proposals were just for a user-right package to be created. Things just developed into more subsequent to that.

  Anyway, as this is merely a sub-page, I doubt it matters what page it is a subpage of.

  I've already placed notices at VP/TECH and VP/PROP. I'll gladly drop one at VP/POL too. - jc37 21:44, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

  While I was at it, I dropped a note at VP/MISC too. - jc37 21:48, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

• I believe in the basic principle of having a set of tools for people we trust to make (relatively) black-and-white decisions, without necessarily thinking that they should wade into the firing line on extremely controversial issues. So on the plus side, I think the proposed toolset is perfect. If viewing deleted pages requires community consensus, then mimicking RfA does make sense, and if done correctly, a third package would lessen the problems with RfA.
  However, in my experience the ability to close contentious XfDs is a massive, massive issue at RfA. This proposal is at an early stage, and thus it would be premature to decide that I am definitely against it at this stage. But I will throw my weight against this proposal if there is not a clear safeguard for contentious XfDs. A user with this ability should be considered capable of doing the equivalent of non-admin closures where the outcome is delete, and of actioning CSDs. But they should not be making knife-edge calls at AfD, TfD etc – if the community had faith in them to do so, they would already be able to pass RfA. —WFC— 08:24, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

  If the community did not have faith (trust) in the individual requesting this package to close contentious content-related discussions, then, they should not receive this package.

  If we as a community did not trust the requester to assess consensus in contentious discussions, how would we trust them to assess CSD, or other such situations?

  The goal of this is not to make there to be any less scrutiny concerning the tools and responsibilities given. It's (among several other things, as noted in the various discussions on this page) to grant fewer tools so that the Request process is more focused. The community should not reduce it's scrutiny concerning: editing protected pages and handling deletion/moves/files, and related responsibilities, including assessing CSD, and closing contentious discussions.

  The candidate would not need community trust concerning block and protect or related responsibilities such as closing contentious RfC/Us, as they would not be receiving those tools and responsibilities, though there are those who may say that they would trust such an editor with all the tools (and thus the candidate might pass an RfA), but it should be up to the candidate, not the community to decide what tools and responsibilities they wish to request.

  So this package gives editors another option, instead of requesting all the admin tools, they can request only those in this package. - jc37 13:04, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Changing visibility proposal

Here is a half-baked idea that might lead to something useful; imagine that someone is working on something that involves making things invisible. (Despite this proposal saying "view deleted text and changes between deleted revisions" it really isn't deletion; it is changing visibility.) He is given two options; first, he can choose to make the material invisible to most editors but visible to those with this new user right. This would be for things like a page that is deleted through AfD or Prod. Second, he can make it invisible to everyone except admins. This would be for things like revealing personal information or copyright violations. Things that are made invisible to everyone but admins should show a brief description of what was deleted and why. Something like "person information about another editor" or "material copyrighted by Tom Clancy". The requirement to provide a description for the visible-only-to-admins material and not to visible-to-trusted-editors material will encourage marking things as being visible to trusted editors whenever possible.

Because this would require software changes, the proposal should specify that all visibility remains as it is pending software support and that after it is turned on all visibility of existing invisible material will be set to visible-only-to-admins unless an admin changes it. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:08, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, I work with OTRS. While I support the gist of your proposal, I often need to see copyrighted info that has been deleted in order to verify that it is the same as what is released in the ticket. Implementing this would reduce the bottleneck occasionally, but given the material usually dealt with on OTRS it wouldn't help too much. Perhaps visible to admins and OTRS members would work for the copyright material that gets deleted. Regards, MacMed^talk_stalk 20:15, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Interesting ideas. I seem to recall something in the distant past regarding something like the user-right you suggest. I'll have to find it. (it's on meta.) - jc37 20:22, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

meta:Pure wiki deletion system (proposal)/Wikipedia:Pure wiki deletion system - Though note, I have strong doubts on PWD ever gaining consensus. - jc37 20:32, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

• Another idea: how about requiring two admins to approve the new user right? That would make it harder to obtain than rollbacker but easier than admin, and would lessen any concerns about abuse anyone may have. We could say that after a year we will have a RfC on whether that number should be one, two, or three admins. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:08, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

  Just to clarify, this is just an idea I am throwing out there for discussion. I think the process described in the present proposal is superior to this idea. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:12, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

  In my experience from past discussions, the ability to view deleted material likely won't fly unless gained through community consensus. - jc37 20:22, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

So, why would anyone want this?

"So why would anyone want to request this? Well, believe it or not, such a user-right group has actually been requested repeatedly for a very long time. Variations of: admin-lite; a two-tier adminship; split adminship; probationary adminship; non-blocking adminship; "someone to help with the backlogs"; and so on."

"Admin-lite" has been requested before on the basis that it would incur a similarly "liter" process than RfA, otherwise this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Have I missed something? Equazcion ^(talk) 07:38, 24 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Depends on what you mean by "liter". (See #Just a rant, below.)

But afaik, the ability to see deleted pages will only be considered acceptable if gained through community consensus. My understanding is that this requirement is pretty much non-negotiable due to WMF concerns.

As for it making sense, see Quinn1's comments below. I have seen such comments over and over again over the years. In particular, there are Wikipedians who consider themselves Wikignomes, and as such really don't want anything to do with the block/protect tools, or being expected to deal with behavioural issues. for them, this would be a perfect fit.

Imagine it's like forcing a conscientious objector to carry a gun. They don't want it, they don't want it, they don't want it. And they have little problem with the requirement to go through the full process to get the other tools that may be necessary for them to help out, but please don't ask them to carry a gun.

But you don't have to ever take it out of your holster, some might say. It doesn't matter. They just don't want to carry it or to have any of the potential responsibilities that go with it.

We have a tradition on Wikipedia that people may contribute at whatever level they are comfortable with.

This is merely an extension of that tradition. - jc37 14:13, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

You don't have to convince me that there are people who would want this rights package as opposed to adminship. I get that. The question is why anyone would request it, if they have to essentially go through an RfA to get it. The proposals for an admin-lite position in the past haven't been rationalized by people merely wanting less rights than adminship, but also a lesser process than RfA to get them. If there are people who merely want something less-than-adminship and want to go through RfA nonetheless to get it, I guess this would give them what they want, but I doubt there are many and this isn't worth the trouble just to give it to them. If viewing deleted edits was the deal-breaker for the WMF, I would remove that right and change the proposal back to requiring a lesser process, as that actually has a chance at providing a significant new benefit to the encyclopedia. Equazcion ^(talk) 20:32, 24 Jun 2012 (UTC)

That's the other thing. One of the things that causes RfA to be what it is, is the idea that it's essentially "for life".

This package has a removal process assigned from the start. The community giveth, the comunity taketh away : )

So I honestly think that this request process won't be anywhere near as "nasty" (as someone else called it). Tough and discerning? Sure. "Nasty"? Not so much. - jc37 22:32, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

You're assuming that the de-facto effect would be a smoother process, but I'm not so sure. I'm not even sure if it should be. The ability to close contentious deletion discussions makes me nervous, as I think that's one of the things that should only be granted to those who've convinced us of their wisdom, ability to self-check, and to remain fiercely neutral, as in RfA. I see it as about on the level of blocking. The ability to remove isn't a comfort on its own either, because judging someone's debate-closing decisions and forming a consensus based on it would be another harrowing experience (everyone who thinks a closing decision was bad and was on the losing side would likely be pigeonholed, for one thing). Equazcion ^(talk) 22:45, 24 Jun 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say "smoother". That suggests that there won't be any unsuccessful requests.

I understand that you may see trust with certain tools equivalent to other tools. But that brings us back to forcing tools on editors who don't want them.

This proposal doesn't stop you from checking an editor's contribs to ascertain trustworthy-ness with the tools and responsiblities being requested. Not at all. - jc37 22:56, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

One of the things that causes RfA to be what it is, is the idea that it's essentially "for life" At the risk of being repetitive, I will mention again that this is not the main issue for the RfA system being reconsidered. The actual problem is the low number of genuine nominations. This is clearly due to the climate that reigns on RfA. Any criteria for 'pass' or 'fail' are set anew at each individual RfA. Why? Becuse not all the same voters vote every time, every voter has their own set of criteria (if any), and some votes are simply in defiance of adminship in general, some votes are 'fan' votes, while others are unresearched pile-ons, vengeance, or simply from new users who do not understand adminship or its election process. Solve these problems, and the issue of the lack of candidates will solve itself. It is unlikely that any proposals to unbundle the tools will achieve consensus, unless some criteria for responsible new page patrolling are introduced - NPP would be one new user right that I would support, and it could include some (very) limited access to the deletion tool. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:00, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Ongoing domino effect: The fears/concerns about trusting a candidate with adminship "for life" are a key part of the causes of the current "tone" at RfA. And then that "current tone" keeps editors from wanting to apply. Round and round the vicious circle goes.

So addressing the concerns of those commenting would seem to be the way to eventually (domino effect) get what you would seem to wish to see: More qualified people applying.

As RfA is ever reliant upon commenters "trust"ing a candidate with the tools, this will always be subjective. We need to change the paradigm.

So one way to address that is to reduce the number of things which a commenter would need to trust the candidate with. As everyone has different criteria to assign their "trust-level", obviously they will not agree on where that should be.

I chose content-related tools for many reasons. The the uses of many tools are interdependent. And these seem to work decently as a separate package. And at the same time, it removes the behaviour assessment tools and responsibilities which has been long requested as a separate option.

So this proposal simultaneously should help adjust the tone at RfA (though of course domino effects do not happen over night), it helps those who want to help withe the backlog, it provides the opportunity for those who do not want the behaviour-related tools and responsibilities, it provides an opportunity for a smaller group of tools and responsibilities to learn for those who wish adminship to be a two-step process, and so on.

No we can never make everyone happy, but I think this proposal goes a long way towards satisfying many requests that have been made over the years. - jc37 02:25, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't wish to belittle your idea, I can see that a lot of hard work went into this and it is not just something you threw together in a few minutes, but I think it has a fatal flaw: The community will not trust users with the delete button without the same level of scrutiny as a full RFA, meaning question after question about deletion and strong, instant opposition should they get an answer wrong. In my opinion this is more or less as it should be, deletion is at least as sensitive an area as blocking, as the community has made clear at RFA again and again. Therefore anyone running for this position might as well run for full adminship as the standards will be just as high anyway. we ca tell the community to lower the bar for these users, but we can't make them and anyway standards should be high for being trusted with such powerful tools. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:08, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

" The community will not trust users with the delete button without the same level of scrutiny as a full RFA, meaning question after question about deletion and strong, instant opposition should they get an answer wrong. " - I don't disagree. Which is part of why, to get these tools, the requester WILL need to go through what you are calling "a full RFA". I say that very clearly in the proposal. We're not lowering "the bar" (the expectation needed) for trust to use delete or any of the other tools and responsibilities that go in this package.

Though I will say that this mistaken opinion has been said/asked several times on this talk page, so I think I will add a clarification on that point to the proposal to hopefully make that more clear. My apologies that the proposal was apparently not clear on this. - jc37 18:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

No, actually it was my impression that it would essentially be an RFA. Which is why I can't imagine anyone bothering with it. For the same amount of grief you could be a full admin and be able to solve problems yourself without having to constantly ask for help from a real admin. There's no point to lowering the level of trust we place in these users while still subjecting them to the same level of scrutiny beforehand. in shortthere is no payoff to this proposal. I can't see how it could possibly help the project to subject someone to the same process as an admin candiddate and then only give them some of the tools, tools which despite the contentions inherint in this proposal have just as great a potential for real harm as the tools they won't be getting. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:46, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Re: "I can't imagine anyone bothering with it", this kind of implies that you either can't imagine that I exist or you can't imagine that I find the power to block to be undesirable. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

(de-dent) We're not "...lowering the level of trust we place in these users...". I would want JohnDoe the admin and RickRoe the mod to both be clearly/fully trustworthy with the delete tool before entrusting it to either of them.

And afaik, I never said that the tools and responsibilities that go with being a mod are any less a potential for great harm, quite the contrary. However, I have talked about what other individuals have said/felt. (Some feel that block is.) But that all stems from one's perspective. Personally, I think that most (if not all) of the admin tools, have a potential for disruption. - jc37 23:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Non-administrator closes

The arguments that would be made against restricting certain closes to non-administrator closes I would make against restricting closes of non-trusty/non-administrator closes. In both circumstances a technical restriction is being used as an illegitimate proxy for a social restriction. However, this is an advance in terms of differentiating the use of the mop to implement content decisions by the community, versus the use of the mop to implement conduct decisions by the community. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:15, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Why do we have backlogs?

"If backlogs are a problem, get some more admins or find a way to make the ones we have more active."
"To the extent that a backlog of administrative tasks is a problem, the solution is to elect more administrators."
"We've got to do something."

As instructed, I've read the full proposal thoroughly, and I can't see any analysis of backlogs and why they occur. Anyway, even where a significant backlog exists, throwing more people at it isn't the only solution. Take AFD as a test case: what could be done to reduce the number of articles that get nominated? is there a pattern about the way these articles got created? which types of editor prefer to nominate an article for deletion rather than improve it – can we nudge them in the other direction? could we speed things up by having a more efficient way to determine notability? ...and so on. We should investigate such issues before tinkering with admin selection.

Surely it's time to a bit more businesslike about the way things work here. Wikipedia is already receiving less commitment from experienced editors and finding it harder to attract clueful new contributors, and that's not going to change overnight. A "real-world" organization can't assume unlimited resources, and we can't either. Rather than artificially increasing the size of our admin pool, we need to slim down our processes. - Pointillist (talk) 22:05, 29 June 2012 (UTC) C/E 22:18, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Discussion split

• Wikipedia talk:Village pump (technical)/Proposal by Jc37/Discussion

Discussion of the proposal has been moved to a subpage (and it thus obscured). In my view, this is contrary to WP:NOTVOTE and turns substantive discussion into a poll. That limits development of the proposal and the potential for consensus to develop. I don't think that is in the best interest of the proposal or the community. --RA (talk) 17:54, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I understand your comcerns, but this is done for accessibility reasons. And the page was moved prior to the split to ensure that the new discussion page would be on everyone's watchlists.

This is common practice in large discussions and straw polls such as this one.

I strongly support consensus (as anyone who's interacted with me knows full well). And whoever closes this will obviously take everything into account, regardless of whether the discussion and straw poll occupy the same page - jc37 17:58, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Doing so unilaterally doesn't look good IMO. Concerns were raised already that you were haranguing those who !voted against the proposal. Moving discussion of the proposal, including criticism of it and alternative proposals, to a sub page could look like you are trying to hide contrary views.

I suggest you stand back a little from "managing" the discussion. If consensus is that the page is too long and to move discussion onto a sub page then fine and good. Another approach would be to move polling onto a subpage. However, first and foremost, this is a talk page. I suggest we follow Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, including Wikipedia:Closing discussions and Wikipedia:Archiving. --RA (talk) 18:17, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

If this gets long enough, we'll likely have to sub-page the straw poll too.

Nothing is being "hidden". (As if we could hide something like this on Wikipedia?) I even made sure this would pop on people's watchlists. I've done nothing but try to make sure this was an open discussion (as you even noted that I asked for the watchlist notice.)

Incidentally I had just finished reading the policies related to accessibility, talk page guidelines, page size, and so on.

There's no sinister foul play at work here.

I welcome discussion - I think you would be hard-pressed to suggest that I do not. - jc37 18:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Then let's move it back and follow normal archiving practice until a consensus to the contrary develops? --RA (talk) 18:26, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

At this point, more shuffling would seem disruptive.

Now I know you will again accuse me of trying to support "hiding" but I'm not. As a matter of fact, I opposed the collapsing of discussion comments. This should be free and open.

But what think I will do is go ahead and provide you with some links showing this to be common practice. After all, policy typically comes from common practice, not the other way round. - jc37 18:32, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

The current Village pump proposals page is about double the size of the poll+discussion pages combined. It's common practice to split when needed, but it wasn't needed at this point, and should've been discussed first. Equazcion ^(talk) 18:36, 30 Jun 2012 (UTC)

I don't like the move either. I think a lot of people are going to miss the discussion now. I changed the header to hopefully make it more apparent, but for the record, I don't think this was a good solution, if there was a problem. Equazcion ^(talk) 18:27, 30 Jun 2012 (UTC)

The box, and the re-order of notices was a good idea. - jc37 18:34, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

This Discussion split went in entirely the wrong direction. I and others expressed concern that the lengthy threads after each oppose vote (but not after the support votes) is haranguing, and that discussion should be in the discussion section, not interspersed among the oppose votes. Instead of addressing that concern, the discussion section was moved where fewer people see it, as evidenced by the fact that anything posted to the subpage gets far fewer replies. If an editor wants his comments to be read, his best strategy is to pick a support or oppose vote and place his comment in the ever-growing threads that each oppose vote generates. In other words, we are rewarding haranguing and punishing posting to the discussion section. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:13, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

History merge

I reverted the split, and did a history merge. - jc37 16:32, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Foundation: selection criteria "exactly the same" as for adminship

Unfortunately, Jc37 insists on removing the following from the top of the page, it is from the Foundation's statement on the proposal:

"...the selection processes for moderators [will] remain exactly the same as that for administrators- using the same criteria, operating on the same page. If the selection criteria or processes should drift from that used for the selection of administrators, we would need to reconsider the position." (emphasis in original)

This is re-iterated by in a clarification from Philippe of the Foundation:

"...while we don't care what the criteria for getting adminship is (i mean, we do, to a certain extent), we do care that it is exactly the same for moderators as for administrators. No setting two different sets of standards.

I think it is important to re-iterate this since it seemingly pours cold water on the idea that (a) access to the proposed user group would easier to attain than adminship; or (b) access to the group would be along different criteria to RfA. --RA (talk) 22:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Cherry picking quotes out of context is simply not neutral. adding the quote without adding the request for clarification is disingenuous in my humble opinion. I presume that every Wikipedian knows how to read, and can click a link. Please calm yourself. people will interpret however they wish to interpret. The best I can do is clarify my proposal, and after that, whatever they decide is fully up to them. - jc37 22:09, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

The Foundation's position is very important. Ultimately, they will decide if the proposal goes ahead and under what terms. Quoting the most significant part of their statement is helpful. The full statement is linked, if you feel that quote lacks neutrality somehow. Alternatively, putting the whole statement at the top of this page would be positive.

You've set out your stall, but I think you now need to take a little step back. Haranguing oppose !voters, moving discussion to a sub-page, and now reverting the Foundation's statement (while at the same time telling others they need to "calm themselves down", etc.) is not conducive to a healthy discussion or consensus building.

Finally (in reply to this post), yes, it is our job is to debate (and convince people of) different things in straw polls. This is because polling is not a substitute for discussion. --RA (talk) 22:33, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

"significant" is in the eye of the beholder. But regardless, my original post applies: cherry picking is not neutral.

And I disagree about "harranguing". Go look through all my comments in the oppose AND support section. I very clearly did not argue with anyone's personal opinion about whether this proposal should "pass". As a matter of fact, I made a point to clearly say that I feel everyone is entitled to express their opinion. I merely have clarified statements, responded to questions/accusation, and of course responded to whatever was said to me.

I think you said something about about how consensus is not a vote. you can't have it both ways. either people should discuss, or they shouldn't.

This needn't be adversarial (hence the 'calm down" comment - though you apparently interpreted that differently than intended.)

I've invited you to discuss several times, and you've continually declined, instead telling me that I should leave so you can do what you want. So how should one interpret that?

I wrote the proposal. If it's opposed, so be it. life on Wikipedia goes on. But as it stands, it is what it is (most proposals - except the most black and white ones - by their nature are not necessarily neutral, as they express the perspective of the proposer).

I'd appreciate it if others did not try to bias the consensusal process in their direction. I assure you I'm not trying to bias the process, I have no need to as the proposal already is what it is, and the opposers are clearly speaking what specifically they disagree with. That's how this system is supposed to work. And I trust that the community will assess it however they see fit. - jc37 22:49, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

@Jc37: You need to stop responding to every "oppose" !vote or critical comment. Even if it isn't harrassment (and I don't think it is) it creates a chilling effect which may prevent people from expressing their opinions. Unless you have something new to say, not every comment requires your response. You crafted this proposal, and opened it to the community, so it's now out of your hands, you need to let it go, and allow the community to freely express its various thoughts. Please. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I have offered clarification regardless of whether someone opposed OR supported OR was neutral. Go look. And note, I have NOT commented on every oppose. And further not only have I not prevented others from expressing their opinions, I noted that they are welcome to do so. Go re-read my comments. You're looking for a problem where this isn't one. Besides, RfA and adminship is one of the most debated topics on Wikipedia. Does anyone feel that anything said by anyone here is going to stop people from commenting? Very unlikely.

Straw polling isn't a "vote". Please don't treat is like one. - jc37 11:28, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

However, To (hopefully) reduce the need to clarify a few things here, I have added a section to the proposal. I think (hope) it will help clarify. - jc37 12:09, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Since we don't have any objective, universal, criteria for adminship, the foundation's statement is meaningless. It doesn't surprise me that a lawyer would write such a thing. They can't possibly mean "just as arbitrary and whimsical". Our actual criteria for adminship is "the approval of 60-70% of the people who bother to comment at RfA" and that's it. Gigs (talk) 04:31, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

And I think that such community approval would be easier to attain for this intermediate status. That would be logical: less power, less reason to be overly scrupulous and bothersome at giving it out. Debresser (talk) 06:00, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

As various users have commented, deletion is among the tasks most likely to cause lasting harm. (An editor whose contributions are deleted might never return.) Likewise, the ability to view deleted pages carries significant legal/privacy issues.

Therefore, only the most trustworthy users should possess these tools. The omission of other tools requiring this level of trust doesn't change that. —David Levy 07:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Ditto. If someone is trusted enough for "delete" then they can have the lot. --RA (talk) 11:10, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I have no problem with the opinion that "If someone is trusted with delete, they can be trusted with all of the adminship tools". But that doesn't mean that they must or even should have all the tools. If we trust them to not abuse the tools in question why do we not trust them to decide that they do not wish tools wish assess others' edits or can affect the ability of an individual to edit?

At some point, we have to decide whether we actually trust them. Else we're just lying to ourselves. - jc37 14:57, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, we at Wikipedia do not even trust admins with all the tools available. CU and oversight and bureaucrat tools, just to name a few. (And some tools aren't even currently assigned to any user group.) - jc37 14:57, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

The Foundation's statement comes as a refreshing engagement. I don't agree with everything the WMF does over the community's heads and consensuses, but I had a hunch that this would be coming. The problem is, that if the community cannot resolve the issue of the bad faith voting and squabbling at RfA, then then only the WMF can come up with a solution - and sooner or later they probably will, or at least when the number of truly active admins falls below par for the essential work. The current proposal, like the one earlier this year, does not address the issue which is purely and simply that mature editors are not going to allow themselves to be pilloried for 7 days. Systems also need to be in place to ensure that the wrong people do not get elected by an overwhelming mass of fan votes, which could present a dilemma for even the most conscientious closing bureaucrat (not that here have been many instances of this). Fears that we have ineffective methods for desysoping are unfounded and are hence not part of the equation, but they would be if there were to be a lowering of the bar or creation of a bunch of mini adminships. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

"... mature editors are not going to allow themselves to be pilloried for 7 days." LOL. This captures AfD perfectly. IMHO the issue is a secret but very deeply seeded belief that adminship really is something special (regardless of whatever Jimbo had to say).

I don't agree with the "pacifist" argument in this proposal — if someone doesn't want to use a particular a tool, they don't have to — but I do know a number of excellent editors (some of whom actually rely on the admin tools) that are put off becoming an admin because of RfA, and all the hassle, accusation and suspicion that follows. Even the Economist (incorrectly) blames admins for all that's wrong with Wikipedia. --RA (talk) 11:10, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

There's further clarification now on Phillipe's talk page. Basically they don't want it to be automatic, the way that rollbacker or autopatroller is handed out. As long as we are voting based on trust and not mechanical criteria, they seem to be OK with it. Gigs (talk) 13:28, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't see where Philippe said that. On July 1, Philippe added, "...we can't have moderators be 'admin-lite', or a training ground for admins. Promotion must be taken just as seriously [as adminship]..." That doesn't strike as being any different from the previous position that Philippe said there would be, "No setting two different sets of standards", between requests for "administrator" and requests for "moderator". --RA (talk) 04:52, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Unlike administrators, moderators should not be able to view deleted material

The proposal continues to allow this proposed "moderator" to have access to deleted material, for example, illegal material.

I would propose that either

• the right to view deleted material be removed from the list of powers, or
• the moderator candidate must state that they are of the age of majority (e.g. 18-21) in their country.

Since the second alternative lacks consensus, I propose that the first alternative be adopted.

• Proposal: Unlike administrators, moderators shall not be able to view deleted material.

Sincerely Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:51, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I support this proposal, and this is really the reason I haven't placed support either way. --Nathan2055^{talk - contribs} 17:59, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Admins are not required this, so this should not be required of moderators, which are merely performing some tasks that admins perform. - jc37 18:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

  Hi Jc37,

  Please read the proposal before commenting. The proposal is to remove the "viewing of deleted material" from the enumerated powers of the moderator. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:40, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

  Hi Kiefer. I did indeed read it, Thanks for checking : )

  I read where you said "I would propose that either..."

  As for the latter part of your proposal, I believe there's also a similar proposal at the /Discussion page. And I have already commented my thoughts on this there. - jc37 19:03, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Further discussion

• Proposal: Unlike administrators, moderators shall not be able to view deleted material.

  Motivation. Children should not view deleted illegal material, because of liability and ethics. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:05, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Whilst you are correct, the point is moot - (a) we already have child admins who can view deleted material, and more importantly (b) illegal material should be oversighted anyway, ensuring no-one under 18 can view it as oversighters have to self-identify. Black Kite (talk) 19:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

  Hi Black Kite,

  I am concerned about also non-illegal material, such as persons having written personal information. Often such information then is only revert-deleted (without being oversighted). I would prefer that the ability to view such information be bundled with blocking, because of the maturity needed to resist temptation. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:27, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• You're welcome to oppose this proposal on those grounds. Otherwise, please feel free to start a separate proposal. To so drastically change the contents of this user-right package now after so many have commented would be disruptive. - jc37 19:54, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Jc37, you don't own the proposal. Please let the community speak and avoid using "disruptive", which is a blocking offense, stupidly. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• "disruptive" to the consensus process. - jc37 20:36, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• My amendment facilitates organized discussion of concerns, which have been raised repeatedly by others, in the badly organized discussion of a badly written proposal. Amendment-making is an important procedure for legislation, in non-authoritarian organizations. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:09, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Question: have you looked at the arguments made for and against during the last few times the exact same change to the Jc37 proposal has been suggested? Perhaps listing the arguments made here in an unbiased manner would help to clarify this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:48, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Back to basics: IMHO Anyone who is to be trusted with 'admin lite' tools should be trustworthy enough to run for RfA. I have serious concerns for having minors as admins, but as this led me to being branded as a child hater in the past, and as there is no policy that regulates it, for me, it's not up for discussion. That said, no new proposal should be considered disruptive - somehow we have to clear up the problems with RfA and the dearth of candidates they have caused.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:49, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
• It should be made clear that this isn't part of the proposal people are straw polling on. Gigs (talk) 13:24, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

It is an amendment to the proposal on which people continue to vote. If somebody creates a section for voting on this amendment, and if this amendment were to receive more support than opposes (qualitatively), then it would force the deletion of this power from the enumerated powers of the moderator (or force another RfC on that point, if implementation of the majority was not respected). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:53, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Alternatives to "moderator"

From my trusty thesaurus:

Administrator: a person who manages or directs something (a hospital administrator)

Synonyms: administrant, boss, bureaucrat, captain, CEO, chair, chairperson, chief, commander, commissioner, consul, controller, custodian, director, executive, functionary, governor, head, inspector, leader, manager, minister, officer, official, organizer, overseer, producer, superintendent, supervisor.

Moderator: a person in charge of a meeting (the moderator should make sure that everyone gets a chance to speak)

Synonyms: alleviator, ambassador, archon, attaché, boss, bureaucrat, captain, chargé d'affaires, conciliator, consul, diplomat, director, emissary, envoy, legate, mediator, minister, mitigator, monitor, peacemaker, plenipotentiary, presider, principal, prolocutor, referee, soother, stabilizer, symposiarch.

My ideas:

Grand Poobah?
Fountain guard?
Guardian of the Gates?
Necron?
Dalek Supreme?
Tisroc?
Village idiot?
Barrayaran Imperial Auditor?
Steward of Gondor?

--Guy Macon (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Part of the problem is that for the purposes elsewhere, content and behaviour is lumped together. So most terms are going to have been used for both at some place or other.

Moderator has a couple things going for it:

• It's a universally known term online as someone who deals with discussions/text/"substance".
• It's fairly neutral term
• It's easily abbreviated to "mod" (compare to administrator/admin)
• AFAIK it should translate fairly easily

Though, I won't spoil the fun : )

How about Grand_Nagus? : ) - jc37 21:20, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

• I !Vote for village idiot... on a more serious note, I think Moderator denotes too much authority... what about Janitor? (What we probably should have called admins in the first place) Monty₈₄₅ 00:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

• How about Trusted Editor ("you will have to ask an admin or tred to make that change")? I am really hoping for Dalek Supreme, though... --Guy Macon (talk) 00:56, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
• I refuse to support anything other than Grand Poobah. In actuality, I'm unsure of a great name, but moderator in my opinion has normally been associated with moderating editors/behavior, so it doesn't seem entirely appropriate. I'm not sure of a good alternative though, trusted editor is a good one. Ryan Vesey Review me! 01:21, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

• Trusted editor applies to every user group... - jc37 01:54, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

• Personally, I like Trusty. It has certain connotations that would reflect accurately on anyone who requests this type of job :) Quinn ^✹SUNSHINE 04:02, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

  Interesting read : )

  Course, that has the problem of likening editors to incarcerated prisoners or convicted criminals : ) - jc37 05:00, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

  Definite strong oppose for "trusted editor" - it blatantly states that all other users are untrustworthy. Isn't building an encyclopedia and trust what Wikipedia is all about? Hmmm... CyanGardevoir ^{(used EDIT!)} 09:50, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• I'm not crazy about moderator, as (IIRC) I've previously seen it used as a synonym for admin. That is, I think it would be confusing for newbies who would think that admin = mod. Then again, I've been a big fan of changing admin to janitor for a long time—maybe it could be considered as an option here instead?
  Also, I think Shirriff should be added to the list. Dori ☾Talk ⁘ Contribs☽ 18:49, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
• I like Archon, but then, I've studied Classical Athens. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 20:33, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

  Great name! : )

  Though I dunno if best for this.

  If we ever approve en.wiki stewards, I'd support them being called archons : ) - jc37 20:38, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

The more I think about "trusted users" the more I like "moderators". The phrase just seems to imply that we don't trust the other editors. Plus, it's hard to shorten. Compare "mods" with "TUs". --Guy Macon (talk) 06:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• I think moderator is the perfect term to use and we should stick with that. Long before wikis, the terms "mod" and "admin" were used on BBSs to differentiate between a user who is more concerned with controlling content, and one who is more concerned with the bigger picture. —JmaJeremy•Ƭalk•Cont 10:32, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Just a rant

This is just a rant, and it won't have a large effect on the proposal at all, but these are some thoughts that came to mind. I feel like a large number of administrators are opposed because of lack of experience in content work. It usually comes down to CSD and AFD work. That means a decent number of the recent non NOTNOW RfA fails wouldn't make it through this. Would this be generally a means for editors who have templates like User:Octane/userboxes/Admin-no to get enhanced editing tools? In addition, while I don't know if it is an official requirement, adminship is a necessary stepping stone for bureaucratship. Would this become a necessary stepping stone for adminship? Would editors be expected to run for "moderatorship" or "trusted editorship" before they ran for adminship? Ryan Vesey Review me! 01:30, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

This is just off the top of my head, but I seem to recall several examples where someone said their intention was to help in CSD and/or AfD. In which case, a commenter wishing more contributions there doesn't sound beyond the pale (everyone has their own requirement criteria for supporting requests, to be sure). Are there those who oppose even without that expressed interest? probably. My point was: "Ok, we still may see that, but we now won't see any of the blocking ones, page protection ones, edit warring ones, and so on. So we'll be reducing the types of opposes by a fair amount I think, due to the focusing of the user-rights involved.

Octane could request tools just like anyone else, I presume? (If they don't wish to, then that too is their choice?)

It's been re-affirmed several times that while all current bureaucrats happen to be admins, there is no requirement.

And in my opinion, NO. This is designed to be an additional user group to help out, the same way rollbacker and account creator help out reducing the load for admins. In this case, content-related tasks.

WIll others want that? I dunno. Are there commenters who may wish someone to have rollback before requesting adminship? probably. But no, no such requirement whatsoever is intended as a part of this proposal. - jc37 01:52, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I think that for all but the most SNOW approved admin candidates, there will be a strong pressure to go through moderatorship first. Its unlikely that such is the intent of those who support it, but I think its almost inevitable. Monty₈₄₅ 01:43, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, and I sincerely hope not. This is intended to be an option for editors. - jc37 01:52, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Monty, and I don't think that that is necessarily a bad thing. As long as the process of becoming a mod (use the working title I suppose) doesn't turn into the flameouts that are so often RFAs, this kind of seems like exactly what the community wants. Why not allow editors to gain more experience with certain aspects of the mop before diving in headfirst? Sounds similar to the perennial proposal to implement some form of trial adminship. If this becomes something of a stepping stone to adminship, so what? New admins know how to use the content related tools (the abuse of which is easily reverted for the most part) and just have to adjust to the editor related buttons (block, protect etc). In any case, there will always be hat collectors who want rights for the sake of rights, and will apply to this vigorously and repeatedly. Having this be a "stepping stone" wouldn't increase that number too dramatically in my humble opinion. Regards, MacMed^talk_stalk 02:05, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't oppose that. I oppose it being required for every potential admin candidate. If someone comes along and wants to run for adminship, they shouldn't be required an intermediary step if it isn't necessary in their case. - jc37 02:09, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

It wouldn't be officially required, but realistically, if you are working in the areas that require the mop, you would get access to the mod toolkit first. If it's easier to get, and helps you in your work (as it should most potential admin candidates), then why wouldn't you have it? Admittedly there are candidates whose contributions lie in other areas, and as such wouldn't need this toolkit. However, any admin candidate with a stated intention of working in XfDs, clearing CSD backlogs, or anything else that falls under this "mod" umbrella would likely be expected by the community to have experience with this mini mop first. It allows them to demonstrate to their fellow editors that they are level headed and can manage a close. Regards, MacMed^talk_stalk 02:17, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Like I said, I don't oppose the idea of individuals using this as a learning opportunity rather than jumping directly into adminship.

Something else you didn't mention were those individuals who do not want the behaviour-related tools. This would be an opportunity for them to help as well.

The overall goal here is to get certain tools in the hands of trusted editors who could use them. The otrs example above is just one of many examples. - jc37 03:45, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I like this statement. Personally, if I became an admin I would stay as far, far away from the block and protect buttons as possible. The rights described in this proposal would be just right for my desired level of participation. Quinn ^✹SUNSHINE 04:08, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree with MacMed that this would eventually be seen as a pre-admin requirement. Not necessarily a terrible thing, but it would make the RfA process even harder than it currently is. If the real problem is too few admins to do the work of admins we should be working to make the process less painful. If we're not getting enough admins because we're afraid of the problems that arise when we put too much trust in them, then let's encourage steps to make admins more trustworthy and accountable (such as asking for confirmed real names from administrators; encouraging them to be above the age of majority; temporarily and automatically removing admin privileges from accounts that have been dormant for over nine months; etc.). There is also a lot of work that can still be done without additional privileges that needs to be done (I'm trying to cleanup the backlog of AfDs that closed with "Merge" that haven't ever been merged). I think WP needs more innovative ideas, so I applaud Jc37 for taking the initiative here, but I'm afraid it'll lead to more problems than the current problem. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 03:15, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

required? no. I'm certain it won't in the same way other user-rights aren't "required". In the same way that even now, a discussion closure doesn't "require" an admin. In the same way we don't have hard rules (per the 5th pillar).

But besides that, "...it'll lead to more problems..." - such as? - jc37 03:36, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Its likely that all the problems/perceived problems that plague full RFAs would migrate to the requests for this right once it became established as an 'optional' prerequisite for RFA. At which point those seeking full admin would effectively need to run the RFA gauntlet twice. Monty₈₄₅ 04:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

"all" would not, if only because this user group would not have anywhere near "all" the admin tools.

I understand the fear. But actually go back and look at the questions and comments in RfAs over the last few years. Many have to do with hypotheticals concerning edit warring and/or blocking.

Also, all those "fear"-based "voters" who oppose anyone else getting the ability to block. And so on.

The actual RfAs simply do not confirm what you seem to be afraid that a request for these tools "could" become.

I'm sure we can "cherry pick" certain rfAs focused on deletion (for example) but overall, The problems with RfA tend to be directly proportional to trust, and with fewer tools, there are simply fewer things to be concerned about trust-wise - jc37 04:54, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if RfM became the more difficult process and RfA became easier. That being said, I believe RfM would be easier than RfA currently is. I see this as creating less problems. Even if it requires "running the gauntlet twice" (assuming both are passed), it may lessen the number of people running the gauntlet thrice. In addition, each run will probably be easier and separated by enough time to make it a less significant impact. I also feel that something like this would lessen the number of editors who burn out during their RfA. Ryan Vesey Review me! 06:24, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

All this is a solution looking for the wrong problem.`We don't need a whole new batch of user rights, admin-lite, or trial adminships for the unqualified hat collectors out there. There are enough wannabe 'moderators' who mess with NPP, AfD, AIV, etc, who have very little experience themselves, and putting right what they do wrong, or monitoring their performance always creates extra work for someone - and it's those issues that won't go away. The problems of the lack of RfA nominations has been clearly identified, and the solution is to keep inexperienced voters, trolls, vengeance seekers, and fan club members off the page. They know who they are, and they are smug in the knowledge that they've wrecked the process. There's nothing much wrong with the RfA process per see, but it's not perfect, that's why the tools have been unwittingly been given to some who even had malice aforethought. The last thing we want is to make it easier to get any of the tools. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:45, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

The goal is to make it easier for those who are trustworthy (or as you put it: "qualified") to get certain tools. Not to make it any easier for the untrustworthy to. I have no illusions that those asking for these tools will need to meet commenters' criteria for deletion and so on. So we'll still see CSD hypotheticals, "how would you close this discussion", and the like. This just will help focus the discussion. Another way to look at it. Imagine applying for a job as an editor for a newspaper. There's a difference between applying for that job, than applying for some job which simultaneously has the responsibilities similar to police officer, newspaper managing editor, and city custodial worker. All different job skills, which not everyone might have. So we cut out the police requirement. The HR department still has criteria that the candidate must meet, they just don't have to deal with a job they won't have the tool access to do. The city won't be issuing that managing editor a gun or access to the city's power grid, - to extend the analogy. So it's just a question of trusting the candidate with the tools and responsibilities being requested. - jc37 13:59, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong - I applaud any initiative to encourage more candidates of the right calibre to come forward, that's why I started RFA2011. Some argue that voters are scared to trust people, and naturally what we don't want is another Pastor Theo sneaking in under the wainscotting. However, that's not the main issue - the problem is the nastiness that goes on at RfA and keeps candidates away, and that kind of behaviour is likely to prevail on any kind of open selection process. The bottom line is: if a candidate can be trusted with one of the tools, they can be trusted with them all - whether they use them all or not is up to them. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:02, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

It's more whether they want them all.

Please see my response above concerning Wikignomes.

It has a lot more to do with the candidate's perspective than the commenters. Some editors simply do not want to carry such responsibilities. They're happy to help with content, but don't want to deal with the behaviour-related stuff.

And as we are a volunteer project, I would think that we should provide a way for such contributors to help out in a manner they are comfortable with. - jc37 15:19, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Whether it is seen as a pre-admin requirement or not, I'd expect any editor that's going to be given pseudo-admin rights to close AfDs to go through a community discussion, because people who start closing AfDs badly don't reduce our backlogs, they increase them, due to the number that end up getting thrown across to WP:DRV. I'd also expect to see an excellent knowledge of image policy from anyone who is going to close FfDs. Whilst we do occasionally have a backlog at some XfD, especially TfD and CfD, I'm unsure that this is the way of "fixing" that problem. Black Kite (talk) 22:35, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Essentially, the same expectations you have for admins closing discussions. And in my estimation, you are obviously not the only one who feels this way. Which is another reason that the process to receive is the same as RfA. - jc37 22:41, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, which is my point ... would this process end up being effectively the same as the current (and as is generally accepted, broken) RfA? Black Kite (talk) 22:48, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes and No.

It's funny, I've been having this same discussion with editors in separate threads, all coming at this from a different angle. Too tough, too weak, too much, not enough, too hard, to easy lol

And that alone makes me think that I may have found a decent balance here.

To address your question, in my opinion, I think that the process will be the same, but I think the tone will change. Maybe not an incredible amount, but even a little would be a good thing.

And further, more people will apply. (No guarantees on success, assuredly). I don't think that you'd disagree there are non-admins who do just fine closing discussions. If we can ask them to pick up a few tools to be able to implement such closes, that's a net benefit for the project, I would think?

I know I've seen you around AN/I. You've spent enough time there to know that blocking can be contentious, controversial, and drama-laden. There are editors who just don't want to deal with that. So let's give them the opportunity to help out in the way they are comfortable? - jc37 23:08, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I mostly agree with you, but I think the delete button can be drama-laden, too. Yes, there are plenty of non-admins who do just fine closing discussions; but of course, the discussions that generate the most controversy are the ones that result in the deletion of an article, file etc., and of course at the moment non-admins can't close them, both because of WP:NAC and the fact that they haven't got the tools to do so. Now of course if we have candidates who show a good knowledge of XfD and the policies, then I don't think there'd be much problem with letting them have the new userright; however I foresee - if more people do apply - a high rejection rate similar to RfA, which might put otherwise good editors off. It's a tricky one; I'm on the fence with it, but - possibly - it might be worth a try. Black Kite (talk) 23:31, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

"but I think the delete button can be drama-laden, too." - Nod, and images and and...

But at least we're reducing that influx to certain kinds of drama. (Fewer tools, fewer types.) That presumably (hopefully) means that for some, less of certain kinds of stress. - jc37 23:45, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Question: Will a moderator be eligible to apply (de facto) for cratship, arbitration committe and CU/OS without going through adminship? EngineerFromVega^★ 07:03, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

There's never been any prohibition against a non-admin from running / applying for any of these positions. Whether any such application from a potential moderator under this proposal have a serious chance of success is down to the community, no? KTC (talk) 10:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

As KTC notes, there's not been such a prohibition.

That said, I doubt that someone who doesn't wish to deal with tools and responsibilities related to behavioural assessment (block/protect/handing out tools) would request such things.

But even if they did, (again as KTC notes) it would be up to the community to decide. - jc37 13:17, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

...as we are a volunteer project, I would think that we should provide a way for such contributors to help out in a manner they are comfortable with... - we already do, every single contributor, including IPs, has far more influence over content and policing the participants than they would ever even get on their local fishing club forum. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:21, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Whether intended or not, this will become a prerequisite for adminship. Not officially, just as adminship is not officially a prerequisite for becoming an crat. It just never happens because the community wants to see admin work from crat candidates. I can hear it now "become a mod and do that for three months, then re-apply for RFA" That will be what every single admin candidate, no matter how qualified, will be told if they have not jumped through the hoops for this position yet. I know tht wasn't the intention but I have no doubt at all that it would be the result. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:13, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• That sounds a lot like a description of the community making a decision. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:39, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• There is already a training grounds for those who want to become admins, and many have used it: which is making non-admin closes at the various deletion processes. (a non admin delete close still requires an admin to do the actual deletion). Normally, it provides very strong evidence for supporting a Rfa; and in one or two instances I remember, the carelessness in such closes provided very good grounds for rejecting a candidate. DGG ( talk ) 18:04, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
• If this is meant to be a set of tools for those who are short on content work and might struggle at RfA as a consequence, then I have to say that the last tool I would trust to someone without content experience is the delete tool. SpinningSpark 02:35, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Associated help page

I think that there should be an associated help page that details and explains what someone with this new user right is not allowed to do, with clearly defined consequences for violations. Anyone requesting the right should be required to indicate that they have read and understand the help page. In my opinion, this requirement and the help page should exist prior to asking the community to approve this proposal; it may very well answer some objections. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:08, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Probably not due to WP:CREEP.

Eventually I suppose there could be a project page for moderators similar to Wikipedia:Administrators. But honestly, as all the rules and restrictions for admins apply to the proposed mods, there's probably no need for such duplication.

But anyway, that's something that probably can be decided later. - jc37 13:33, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I disagree that it would be instruction creep, it would be a set of important guidelines that are separate from those of admins. It would be useful for the purposes of editors making a decision on this, for them to know exactly what it would and wouldn't allow. I am under the impression that a moderator could not close a requested move for a non-article page, but that could be disputed. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:57, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

So something similar to WP:ADMIN as I noted above? Nod, probably eventually. (Though hopefully written more clearly than the proposal is turning out to be : )

And yes this user group gives the ability to move files, user pages, and so on. So I'm not sure why they shouldn't close an RM on non-articles. "content" isn't just article-space. - jc37 20:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The Wikimedia foundation and deleted material

I'm pretty sure that this proposal, although with lots of support, will not be implemented unless deletion-related permissions are not included.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:52, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

What evidence do you have for this? The vetting process will be the same as that of an administrator and the trust required will be basically the same. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

This is per the previous proposal at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Proposal by Jc37/2, although I think I should go poke a WMF representative again on this.--Jasper Deng (talk) 18:03, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, it appeared to me that their issue was with viewing deleted material, not deleting the material. This would allow an editor to view deleted material, but it also gets rid of the concern that it would just be "handed out". I'll poke Philippe (WMF), he commented last time and is on the Wikimedia Legal and Community Advocacy Team. Ryan Vesey Review me! 18:10, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Which is another reason why to gain these tools requires going through the RfX process. As I clearly pointed out in the proposal. - jc37 18:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I have posted a statement above, and on the associated project page. :) Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 23:45, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I moved it below, replaced with a link above. The huge box at the top of the page seemed to unbalance things somewhat, even if the words didn't express support per se. Equazcion ^(talk) 00:01, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Great, no objection from me :) Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 07:20, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Clarified

• Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Proposal_by_Jc37#So_why_would_anyone_want_to_request_this? (diff)

I expanded the section linked above per common questions here on the talk page.

Originally, I left out the "why" because the proposal was getting long, and I was presuming most others have seen the various proposals over the years. That was clearly a mistake on my part.

I also added some copy editing (like bolding and italics), to hopefully make things a bit more clear.

I hope that this clarification helps.

Though I welcome suggestions on how to make it clearer. - jc37 19:31, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

There was a recent off-wiki discussion (they actually used an obsolete method called "face to face speech" -- how crazy is that?) among some Quakers. The majority opinion was that accepting a position as a Wikipedia administrator would violate the Quaker Testimony of Equality by giving one person power over another. Like being a police officer, this is something that (some) Quakers have no problem with someone else doing, but choose not to do themselves for religious reasons.

Another group that this might apply to is Wikipedia editors with Asperger's syndrome. In general, they would be a good fit with the proposed user right. As Sociological and cultural aspects of autism says, "An increasing technological society has opened up niches for people with Asperger syndrome, who may choose fields that are highly systematized and predictable. People with AS could do well in workplace roles that are system-centered, and connect with the nitty-gritty detail of the product or the system." On the other hand, the difficulties in social interaction that is typical of AS makes them a poor fit with the user blocking aspects of being an administrator. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:38, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I hesitate to add specific non-wiki rationale examples to the proposal. Though I will say that both of those are very interesting. - jc37 15:45, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Another reason why one might full administrator rights to be undesirable relates to the saying "when someone complains about administrator abuse, it usually turns out that it is the administrator who is being abused". The tools that deal with user misconduct cannot be used in a situation where the administrator is involved, yet we have all seen cases where a particularly disruptive editor makes a big deal about the fact that the person who told him to knock it off happens to be an administrator. Having the tool, even if you never use it, causes some people to treat you differently.

When I am working on a case at WP:DRN, I often use the following introduction:

"I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. We need more volunteers; see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Guide for details."

I find that the above wording helps to set the tone for the discussion that follows. I don't believe that I would be as effective if I had the full set of administrator rights -- I would have special authority. Without those rights, I have to ask an administrator to intervene if a situation requires a block -- something I would have to do anyway because of WP:INVOLVED

On the other hand, not being an administrator has a downside that restricts me from certain actions that are clearly good for the encyclopedia. When I see someone who is violating WP:OUTING, I want to hide the personal information on sight, not wait until an admin reacts to my request. I have seen typos and dead links on fully protected pages that I would like to be able to fix on the spot rather than putting in an edit request. Sometimes I see a backlog where I could help by doing non-controversial content-related administrator tasks. Assuming that I can pass the RfA to be an administrator, why would anyone want to deny me the choice of becoming a moderator instead? I think these are all valid reasons why I would be willing to become a moderator but not an administrator, even though the requirements are exactly the same. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:21, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation position

Hi everyone. Today, Maggie and I spoke with Kelly Kay, the Deputy General Counsel (whom Geoff tasked with making this decision, since he's out of the office and didn't want to make you wait for his return). We laid out the considerations and the statement originally made by Mike and confirmed by Geoff. As we see it, the primary concern that led to Mike's position was that access to admin rights and permissions, including that those who had access to deleted article-related permissions needed to be administrators, because administrators go through a rigorous community selection process.

In this case, as it has been proposed to us, the process for becoming a "moderator" is exactly the same as that for becoming an administrator. As a result, Kelly is able to approve this plan on the condition that the selection processes for moderators remain exactly the same as that for administrators- using the same criteria, operating on the same page. If the selection criteria or processes should drift from that used for the selection of administrators, we would need to reconsider the position. All of this, of course, is provisional upon the plan reaching consensus here in the typical fashion. This will not be imposed by the Foundation - we're simply saying that we will not block it, should it get to that point. Sincerely, Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 23:41, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

What criteria here must be "exactly the same"? Does it mean that any user that would !vote support or oppose for "moderator" would be expected to !vote the same way were it a full RfA? What about the hypothetical "Not now for RfA, run for moderator first" situation discussed elsewhere on this page? Or does it just mean that the 'crats must evaluate the percentages and such in the exact same way when closing either type of request? Anomie⚔ 20:16, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I warmly concur with the statement above by Philippe. While the unbundling of some tools may in certain cases be worth considering, it does not necessarily address the overall competency of any of the editors who will use them. Almost all of the recent good faith proposals to unbundle the tools, or to create 'moderators' or 'admin lite' have been made in order to address the dearth of candidates for adminship; they all fail to take into account however, that the selection/election process will still be open to the very same issues that have prevented editors of the right calibre and experience from wanting to be subject to the sysop selection/election process. At worst, an unbundling may even encourage more 'hat collectors' to apply for additional user rights - another problem that is endemic to the current RfA process and other user rights that are seen as a privilege or a reward. We could risk ending up with too many chiefs and not enough indians, or as Brandon Harris (Jorm) once stated, what Wikipedia does not want, is 'a whole priesthood of gatekeepers' --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:40, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand something. When you write that "We (the WMF)'re simply saying that we will not block it." it means that if you would like you could block it. That is very interesting because this proves that WFM has the a huge control on everything that happens on wikipedia. Pluto2012 (talk) 20:22, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

See office actions. If something would cause legal issues for the WMF, they can and will block it. (They theoretically could do it even if it didn't, but won't because it's just bad practice and would drive away their users). In this case, deleted revisions often contain defamatory stuff and inappropriate personal information (including WP:OUTING material). As such, only people who have gone through a rigorous process to demonstrate community trust have access to viewing deleted revisions. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 21:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

davidwr's counterproposal

Above. davidwr wrote (in part) "How about removing most deletion-related tools except "delete"? This would let approved people close most but not all deletion discussions, handle most speedy deletes, handle most AfDs, and most other backlogged issues?" (davidwr also had some ideas about RfA's, but I want to discuss his idea assuming the conditions the WMF have given us.)

It looks like this would remove the following powers from moderators:
undelete - Undelete a page
deleterevision - Undelete specific revisions of pages
deletedhistory - View deleted history entries, without their associated text
deletedtext - View deleted text and changes between deleted revisions
browsearchive - Search deleted pages

The most obvious difference would be that this would make deleting pages or revisions one-way - you could delete but you couldn't undo your deletes (perhaps a big scary "This cannot be undone. Are you sure?" message would help). Other than that, what could you not do that really needs to be done under this set of rules? --Guy Macon (talk) 06:19, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Strong support this counter proposal CyanGardevoir ^{(used EDIT!)} 08:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I've noted this above already, but I believe this to not be a good idea. We want people to make informed decisions concerning deletion, not blundering about in the dark. - jc37 13:33, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose spliting delete from undelete and view deleted text etc. They couldn't undo their own mistakes. They couldn't review their own actions. They couldn't review others actions. No. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:14, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
• Strong oppose for the reasons labeled by SmokeyJoe. Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:46, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Related: Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Unbundling delete and undelete. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Followup: as I suspected, SmokeyJoe is right. You couldn't undo your own mistakes. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:16, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per SmokeyJoe. KTC (talk) 19:03, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

As of today, the vote on the above counterproposal is 1 support, 3 oppose, 0 neutral (25% support). The vote on the main proposal is 33 support, 20 oppose, 2 neutral. (62% support). --Guy Macon (talk) 13:09, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

This is a discussion, not a majority vote. I don't mean to suggest that you mustn't calculate and post the above figures (which are relevant), but please refrain from collapsing comments. We should encourage participants to read them (thereby improving their understanding of others' opinions and concerns), not hide them from view. —David Levy 13:35, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Watchlist notice

This is the kind of thing that deserves a watchlist notice. I only came across it by accident and not many users pay attention to RfC, etc. A watchlist notice would be an essential part of a proposal of this sort IMO.

A Jc37 to his credit has already opened a thread on setting one up here. --RA (talk) 00:30, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I have a concern

I have noticed that if someone adds their name to the support list, they are left alone, but if someone adds their name to the oppose list, they get a lengthy thread discussing their vote. I voted to support, but I am concerned that the above behavior might have a chilling effect on potential oppose votes. Shouldn't we be having these discussions in the discussion section? --Guy Macon (talk) 01:19, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I won't speak for others, but as for me, I have attempted to limit my comments in the support/oppose sections to merely clarify the proposal and its various parts; ask the commenter to clarify; respond to whatever questions, accusations, or follow-up response. I have done this in both the support and oppose sections.

What I have tried to NOT do is argue against their opinion. (though I have in the discussions section, as you note, that is the more appropriate place for that). I feel every commenter is entitled to their opinion.

I believe that the above is common practice in any straw poll situation (including RfCs and RfAs).

And I "hope" that others stay within this limitation as well. - jc37 01:57, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I noticed this too, the oppose !voters are getting severely harangued. That, together with a "proposal" that is soaked in arguments (rather than straightforwardly presenting the proposal) and a condescending demand of don't you dare !vote without reading this thoroughly first, were already inclining me to oppose before I had even read it (and nothing I read then changed my mind). SpinningSpark 02:26, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I know eh? It's turning into RfA support/oppose section. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 02:16, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Most community-wide straw polls do to at least some extent. I can provide diffs if you like. - jc37 02:56, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Same process, same standard, so what benefit?

The Foundation statement said:

In this case, as it has been proposed to us, the process for becoming a "moderator" is exactly the same as that for becoming an administrator. As a result, Kelly is able to approve this plan on the condition that the selection processes for moderators remain exactly the same as that for administrators- using the same criteria, operating on the same page. If the selection criteria or processes should drift from that used for the selection of administrators, we would need to reconsider the position.Emphasis in original.

Under these circumstances, what benefit is there to spinning off those rights? If it makes the process significantly easier, the WMF's provisional approval doesn't cover it; if it doesn't make the process significantly easier, why wouldn't someone want the "free" tools that would come with a normal RfA? --Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 08:38, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

This has been answered several times on this talk page, in particular under #So, why would anyone want this? and #Clarified. - jc37 11:48, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

What hasn't been answered is the question of why we shouldn't simply permit administrators to decline/relinquish access to undesired tools. If the process and criteria are to be "the same", how is it beneficial or desirable to establish a new designation (outside the context of MediaWiki) with an added recall provision attached? What, apart from encouraging the community to oppose trustworthy users' adminship requests (on the basis that they can seek modship instead), will this accomplish? —David Levy 12:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I answered that specific question in detail. Please do not claim that I did not. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:30, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

You stated that you "can not and will not accept the title of 'Administrator' as long as any Wikipedia page says that Administrators can block users". I responded by explaining that "in the hypothetical scenario to which I referred, those pages would be updated to indicate that administrators may accept or decline the tool".

You also noted that "administrators get treated differently than non-administrators by newbies". I agree (and have experienced this personally), but the proposed change isn't a solution. As I said, splitting off a separate class of user incapable of bullying fellow editors would reinforce the misconception that administrators possess such an entitlement.

Your argument, if I'm not mistaken, is that persons cannot avoid the perceptions currently associated with administrators unless they're called something different. Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that this is true. Why not simply permit trustworthy users to decline/relinquish access to undesired tools and call themselves something other than "administrators"? Why should the community be tasked with drawing the distinction (keeping in mind that they're to apply "the same criteria"), with such individuals taking on an added recall provision? —David Levy 12:56, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

The above statement consists of you disagreeing with the answer I gave earlier. It may very well be that my answer was completely stupid, but that is not the same thing as me not answering at all. Your previous assertion that "What hasn't been answered is the question of why we shouldn't simply permit administrators to decline/relinquish access to undesired tools" (emphasis in original) was factually incorrect. If you think my reasons don't make sense, say that. Don't say I did not answer the question when I clearly did. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:09, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, I agree with most of what you wrote, and I certainly didn't intend to imply that any of it was "stupid". I'm sorry if this was unclear.

You noted that you "can not and will not accept the title of 'Administrator' as long as any Wikipedia page says that Administrators can block users", and I explained that I was referring to a hypothetical scenario in which the pages in question wouldn't say that.

You also raised points about the terminology used, and I attempted to clarify then (and again above) that my question isn't related to that.

So I regard the exchange not as an in instance in which you answered "the question of why we shouldn't simply permit administrators to decline/relinquish access to undesired tools", but as one in which you cited specific factors and I clarified that they aren't tied to the question that I'm asking.

I'm not suggesting that the discussion didn't occur or that your input wasn't valuable. I apologize for being unclear. —David Levy 19:01, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

David, you've opposed. At this point, why use Guy, or anyone else, to reargue your reasons to oppose? You obviously have another way that you would rather see done. Why not propose this in your own proposal so that everyone can see it and understand it and comment on it. - jc37 13:56, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Jc37, you've (obviously) already stated your own support, ad nauseum, having proceeded to reply to nearly every opposer. I'm not just saying this to point out the irony of this comment, but also to suggest altering your own behavior. It's usually not helpful to badger the opposition -- regardless of how politely you might word responses, replying to everyone who opposes usually comes out looking this way. Just FYI. David's responses are nothing compared to what you've been doing. Equazcion ^(talk) 14:04, 30 Jun 2012 (UTC)

There is a difference, I wrote and proposed the proposal, and am clarifying it. (As I noted in the section directly above.)

David is of course welcome to counter propose, but my question above is to ask why he doesn't then propose his idea in a proposal so that we can all clearly understand him/it. - jc37 14:10, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

My goal, at this juncture, is to discuss the matter, conveying my views to others while gaining a fuller understanding of theirs. Surely, you aren't suggesting that such discourse is inappropriate or asking me to "support"/"oppose" and go on my merry way. And I assume that you recognize the inadvisability of forking the discussion and initiating a separate proposal for every slightly different implementation that someone has in mind. —David Levy 14:36, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Lol, after spending several days (so far) discussing with you, I'm sure you realise that I do not oppose discussion (especially outside the support/oppose sections).

But yes, build the proposal. atm, I can honestly say, I do not understand how your suggestion would work within the limitations I've come to understand upon how they are allowing user groups to be created and user-rights to be grouped. Without that explained clarity, it leaves us all talking in circles as far as I can tell. But please feel free to explain/clarify. - jc37 14:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Just because he doesn't have the details of a possible counter-offering worked out that's better than yours doesn't make his opposition any less logical. "Then let's hear yours, or shut up" is a classically fallacious argument (not implying you've worded things that rudely, but for the sake of conciseness, it's essentially what you're saying). Equazcion ^(talk) 14:47, 30 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Nothing even close to that absolute. I'm looking for more productive discussion. There are reasons we write proposals, and one is to try to clearly convey our ideas to others. (I won't claim to have been even moderately successful at that myself - though several commenters have been kind in their comments - there has been, to my eye, much misunderstanding, which I fault myself for in presentation of the proposal.)

So to discuss something like this, it sometimes takes an overview to help discussion. - jc37 14:58, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

He doesn't necessarily have an overview to give you, even though he sees problems with your proposal, which he's pointed out. You're answering that by challenging him to clarify what his improved proposal would be, when he never said he had one (a complete proposal that warrants an overview, that is) -- and that doesn't matter. Equazcion ^(talk) 15:07, 30 Jun 2012 (UTC)

I'm attempting to provide the clarity that you request, but I don't aspire to initiate a formal counter-proposal at this juncture. I seek to exchange views, in the hope that everyone involved will gain a better understanding of others' concerns and expectations.

In particular, I want to understand why users prefer the current proposal over various alternatives. I might even be persuaded to agree. —David Levy 15:11, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I just created a blank discussion page at Wikipedia_talk:Village_pump_(technical)/Proposal_by_Jc37/Side_discussion. I won't speak for you David, but I know that I can (at times) be "a touch" verbose. This will give us room to talk all this through if you are interested. Post your initial questions/thoughts/ideas, and we can go from there. - jc37 15:16, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm not 100% clear on what's to be discussed there. As I noted, I don't seek to initiate a formal counter-proposal at this time. I'm merely expressing my concerns regarding the current proposal and attempting to gain a better understanding of its supporters' views.

I realize that both of us tend to be "a touch verbose" from time to time. I haven't written anything that I feel should be moved to a separate page, but if you would prefer to respond on one (with the remainder of the replies occurring there), I understand. —David Levy 18:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

"a touch", maybe : )

I just meant that you've posed some questions, I was merely asking you to pose them again there to sort of "re-start" the discussion. - jc37 18:38, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Okay. I'll do so shortly. (: —David Levy 19:01, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I've reiterated one of my concerns. (I have others, but they tie into this one, so it probably would be best to tackle it first.) —David Levy 20:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Village pump (technical)/Proposal by Jc37/Side discussion

Count or bullets?

User:Guy Macon had collapsed replies to votes on this page in order to make counting easier. I reverted this because I felt the discussion was just as important, and switched the bullets to #'s in order to automate counting. User:David Levy reverted this on the basis that this isn't a straight vote, but a discussion.

I myself am in favor of the #'s, because although this is a discussion, the count still matters, and it's very difficult to count, when one does want to know it, with the long discussions taking place. Feel free to express your take on this. Equazcion ^(talk) 13:27, 30 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Why is it important to keep track of the vote counts in real time? How is this information relevant when expressing one's opinions/concerns and responding to those expressed by others? Such formatting creates the appearance of a majority vote, thereby encouraging "drive-by voting". —David Levy 13:35, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not meant to help people express their opinions, and it's not exactly important per se, just convenient for those who want to know what level of support or opposition this proposal currently has. In most discussions this is usually apparent from a perusal, but in this case the threads are so long that it's very difficult. I don't see it encouraging drive-by votes -- many proposals are formatted this way, especially when it comes to major policy changes, among which I think this can be considered. Equazcion ^(talk) 13:43, 30 Jun 2012 (UTC)

I recognize the utility among those who are curious, but as you noted, this isn't important.

In my observation, such formatting does tend to encourage "drive-by voting". People see a vote count, assume that nothing else matters, and cast "me too"-type ballots without elaboration or discussion. —David Levy 13:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, it may not be important, but then, it never really is. Even when there is a majority vote taking place, counts can always be taken after the fact instead, if there were a drive-by effect to avoid, yet it's still used pretty often anyway (generally in longer discussions with this particular problem). I'm not seeing any difference here from the situations where counts are usually implemented. It may not be a majority vote, but a gauge of support does matter a great deal. I'd like to be able to tell where the proposal is at, in that regard, without having to perform a tedious manual count each time. If I'm the only one then I'll concede though. Equazcion ^(talk) 13:58, 30 Jun 2012 (UTC)

For now, I think I'll agree with David, if for no other reason than it seems too soon to start worrying about "counting votes". - jc37 14:05, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

There is an unwarranted assumption here, which is that my purpose for collapsing the discussions was to make vote counting easier. That was not my purpose. My purpose was to discourage haranguing people when they vote, and to avoid having to look at the exact same arguments that are in the discussion section duplicated several times as discussions after individual votes. I would like to go back and collapse the discussions after votes again, and am seeking a consensus that I be allowed to do so. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:16, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

The typical practice in these (when looking over these in the past) would appear to be that at some point, the discussion section will be split to a sub page. I don't think we're quite there yet, but if the page gets too much bigger, we'll have to for accessibility reasons.

As for collapsing discussions, while this may be a straw poll, it is in no way a "vote". And such discussion is very much common practice. - jc37 16:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I split the page as you all felt it was getting long, and it is common practice with community-wide straw polls like this.

I moved the page first for transparency to ensure that the sub page will auto matically be on everyone's watchlists. - jc37 17:49, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Just to note: [1]. Equazcion ^(talk) 16:48, 30 Jun 2012 (UTC)

@Jc37, can we let the community comment without such frequent commentary from you on the status of the discussion? Your comments seem very focused on achieving your desired outcome and while I don't believe there's malicious intent, it has a dampening effect on the conversation. I humbly ask that you please let us talk about it without such frequent input from you. Thank you. Vertium (talk to me) 14:46, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Trial period

Several people have suggested a year-long trial period. Just wanted to say that I do not oppose this idea. - jc37 15:33, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Why trust the one community and not the other?

I have been thinking about the following argument:

"While I don't know if it is an official requirement, adminship is a necessary stepping stone for bureaucratship. Would this become a necessary stepping stone for adminship? Would editors be expected to run for "moderatorship" or "trusted editorship" before they ran for adminship?"

"I think that for all but the most SNOW approved admin candidates, there will be a strong pressure to go through moderatorship first. Its unlikely that such is the intent of those who support it, but I think its almost inevitable."

"I agree with **** that this would eventually be seen as a pre-admin requirement. Not necessarily a terrible thing, but it would make the RfA process even harder than it currently is."

"Whether intended or not, this will become a prerequisite for adminship. Not officially, just as adminship is not officially a prerequisite for becoming an crat. It just never happens because the community wants to see admin work from crat candidates. I can hear it now 'become a mod and do that for three months, then re-apply for RFA' That will be what every single admin candidate, no matter how qualified, will be told if they have not jumped through the hoops for this position yet. I know that wasn't the intention but I have no doubt at all that it would be the result."

What this seems to be saying is "I don't trust the RfA community to do the right thing so I am asking the RfC community to decide that the RfA community not be given a choice that I don't trust them to make".

This raises the question of why we are trusting the RfC community to make decisions while not trusting the RfA community to make decisions. Are the folks who are participating in this RfC smarter, wiser, or more informed? Are the folks who participate on RfAs stupider, more foolish or more ignorant? Or is this a moral issue -- we are good and true and they are conniving weasels? (Note to the humor impaired; the language I just used was a joke -- use of over-the-top language when the actual sentiment appears to be that we RfC participants are are just a little bit more trustworthy than RfA participants.) --Guy Macon (talk) 04:41, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

(Sound of crickets...) --Guy Macon (talk) 06:35, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

3rd level of adminship without any delete or undelete tools

I support the jc37 proposal strongly, if it includes a trial period (say one year), and if there is a simple method of removing mods at any time.

But I am concerned that the WMF requirement that mods with undeletion rights must pass through the regular RFA scrutiny means that in the end in a year or two we still will not have enough admin/mods. So we need a third level of adminship without any delete or undelete tools.

I think, contrary to some people, that more people (not enough) will successfully pass the RFA gauntlet for jc37 modship (did I invent that word?) precisely because giving somebody the block tools is a higher level of power. Higher power should be more difficult to acquire. Which is one reason why so few people make it through the process to become full admins.

I might apply for a 3rd level of adminship without any delete or undelete tools. I have over 24,000 edits on Wikipedia and this is the only type of admin or moderator that has piqued my interest in becoming. And I know my stuff too. I have 17,000 edits on the Commons, and 36,000 edits on Wikia. I am a bureaucrat on Wikia.

This 3rd level of adminship will deal with more content issues. That is what is sorely needed on Wikipedia. See: User:Timeshifter/More articles and less editors. --Timeshifter (talk) 09:50, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

"Higher power" is in the eye of the beholder (as we are seeing). I personally think from a social perspective, block is seen that way, but from a content contributor's perspective, delete is seen that way.

Anyway, without the deletion tools, I think there's only 4 or 5 other tools in this package which aren't already given to autoconfirmed, and I wouldn't want them given to someone who couldn't view deleted material. When I said that this package was interdependent I wasn't kidding. I reduced 54 user-rights to 16 and added editprotected (which isn't in the admininstrator user group due to admin having protect).

So this is about as "condensed" a package as I would want to see one. The idea was to make the tools as useful as possible with as small a package as possible.

So anyway, without the ability to delete and to see deleted, I would oppose the package as unbalanced. - jc37 11:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how deletion or undeletion tools are essential in general to these functions listed at the beginning of your proposal:

Proposal: A new user-right package (aka user group) designed primarily to help with content-related admin tasks for which there is often a backlog. - For example, to allow for implementing the close of content-related discussions like: RM; DRV; AfD / CfD / FfD / TfD / MfD / etc.; various talk page and noticeboard RfCs; and so on. In addition, assessing CSD, and PROD, and edit-protected requests, and other such content-related tasks which would be related to the tools granted in this user-rights package.

Unbalanced? If some specific cases require the deletion or undeletion tools, then these 3rd-level admin/mods can recuse themselves.

I also don't believe non-admin closes should be allowed, and this group should be used instead. So there will be plenty of work they can do. Non-admin closers don't have deletion or undeletion tools. They also have very little accountability, and in my opinion non-admin closes alienate a percentage of users.

You are saying the same thing others are saying about your proposal, that admins must have more, more, more tools, and therefore they oppose your proposal because you are taking away tools from admins. Admins who will still have to go through an approval process regardless of the number of tools they are given. They are illogical in this, and you are being illogical in this. Admin volunteers should not be turned down because they don't want to do everything. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:21, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

The tools themselves are only subdivided the way they are mostly due to dev preference. A good example of this is the tool protect. It technically could be (at least) 4 different tools. But they combined it into one. Technically most of the deletion tools could be combined into a single user-right.

So the goal is to find out what these tools actually do, and what would be necessary to perform the most tasks possible with the fewest tools. For example, movefile is both moving and handling files. And the ability to move a page without leaving a redirect requires the ability to delete. There are technical things involved here too. I didn't pick these cause "Hey I thought this would be fun"  : )

The core of this user-right package are the abilities I noted at the top, xfD, RM, CSD, editprotected, etc. You can't close an XfD without the deletion tools to implement. That's been the standard for a long time. Someone may need to edit protected pages in order to adjust hatnotes and links to a now moved or deleted page, they may need to adjust a category name due to a rename or a merge, and so on. The goal here is to not add to admin's work, but to give the moderator (if that's what we call this user group) that ability to assess consensus, to handle content-related issues, without needing to run to an admin, because the moderator, in these situations, will be as trusted as an admin to perform them. Why? Because the mod went through the same trust-assessing process that admins do.

What I didn't add were (of course) block and protect, but thre's a lot more in the admin package than that. +sysop (which is what the admin package is) pretty much a dumping ground for most new tools made. And what's left (mostly) deal with the ability of an individual to edit, and assessing an individual's edits, rather than handling content. Besides that, I left out editing mediawiki (which, as I know from previous discussions, is "not a chance"), and types of importing. (I only added the user-right dealing with commons due to being able to implement that type of close at FFD, and other image/file-related discussions.) So with that in mind, this is a rather clear division of work. One thing we don't want is a confusion about what a mod is able to do now (or in the future).

So, you're welcome to disagree, but this was all inherently logical.

As for RfA, as long as it's a place where individuals express their personal opinion of what "trust" is (and thus also, what their fears are), it will always be subjective.

So my goal is to help affect a change in tone, not a change in our standards of assessment. the latter will likely not happen, and I honestly prefer that we have high standards for those using such tools. Though i can accept that you (and others) may disagree. - jc37 14:43, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you really addressed my points head on. I see your point that having the deletion tool is handy. But I don't think it is essential. I get stuff deleted frequently on the Commons. I just put a "speedy" tag on empty categories. It is easy to do the same thing on redirect pages on Wikipedia.

It is not my goal to "do the most tasks possible". Also, there is no reason that closing an XFD can't be separated from actual deletion.

My main point is that the WMF only requires the standard RFA process for admins who will be given undeletion tools. The standard RFA process is a failure for recruiting enough admins. It is unnecessarily hard to get through it (unlike years ago).

So remove the undeletion tools (and deletion tools since they have must stay together in order revert one's own deletion mistakes). Problem solved. Changing the tone is not enough. We need more admins, and many more mods. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:29, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Some of what you suggest would seem to require changing common practice/policy/guidelines. I was attempting to not need that at all in this proposal.

As for the rest, without the deletion tools (and the many and varied related tasks and responsibilities thereof), this would be a hollow, pretty much pointless usergroup. The remaining tools are too disruptive to be handed out by admins, but not useful enough as a package that anyone would want to go through the RfX process to attain. - jc37 17:57, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, it is common practice to bundle them all together for full adminship. That is an obvious failure. We aren't getting enough admins through the RFA process. Some people think the unbundling you propose is pointless since people will still have to go through RFA. I disagree.

I already pointed out why this 3rd level of adminship is not a hollow and pointless usergroup. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, it is common practice to bundle them all together for full adminship. That is an obvious failure. We aren't getting enough admins through the RFA process.

That wasn't always the case. The solution is to counter the inflated expectations that have developed over the years, not to validate and reinforce them by creating stripped-down packages for candidates not meeting them. —David Levy 19:50, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Admin volunteers should not be turned down because they don't want to do everything.

This is my main criticism of RfA. Candidates are rejected because they don't need every tool.

As I've commented in the past, the relevant question should be "Can this individual be trusted to not misuse the tools?". If someone is trustworthy and doesn't need a particular tool, he/she simply won't use it.

The standard RFA process is a failure for recruiting enough admins. It is unnecessarily hard to get through it (unlike years ago).

Agreed. And the introduction of stripped-down admin package variants would validate and reinforce the current approach, thereby making adminship even harder to obtain. —David Levy 19:10, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

This 3rd level of adminship would not be as hard to obtain. There will be less need for full admins if some of the load is taken off them. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

This 3rd level of adminship would not be as hard to obtain.

I'm referring to adminship in its current form. The introduction of "lower" forms would encourage the community to reject candidates who haven't demonstrated a need for every tool (despite a reasonable belief that they can be trusted to not misuse any of them). As a result, we would have even fewer "full admins".

There will be less need for full admins if some of the load is taken off them.

Trustworthy users should simply be "full admins". Making some of them "partial admins" (thereby preventing them from properly addressing certain situations without flagging down "full admins" for assistance) would be a net loss. —David Levy 19:50, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Re: "The introduction of "lower" forms would encourage the community to reject candidates who haven't demonstrated a need for every tool (despite a reasonable belief that they can be trusted to not misuse any of them)", this appears to be an invalid argument. Wikipedia talk:Village pump (technical)/Proposal by Jc37/Discussion#Why trust the one community and not the other? has a detailed explanation, but in essence you are saying that the community cannot be trusted to make the decisions that you think they should make. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:41, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

No, that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that I disagree with a particular approach (requiring trustworthy users to demonstrate a need for every tool included in the package that they request). In my view, the creation of "lower" adminship levels relies upon the premise that this is advisable (and doesn't make sense unless the community agrees that it is), so I oppose it here and now.

In other words, this proposal's success would evidently reflect consensus that trustworthy editors should be required to demonstrate a need for every tool included in the package that they request. In such a scenario, it would hardly be unreasonable for the community to respect this apparent consensus at RfA. That's why I'm arguing that it's the wrong message to send. —David Levy 21:28, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah!.

That is not the intent of this request whatsoever. But I think I see where the confusion laid now! : )

I agree with you in that admins should be trusted to not abuse the tools they are granted, and thus trusted to not use tools inappropriately (or at all) at their discretion. And thus by extension, I apply the same feeling to moderatorship, per the tools that mods are granted. Same thing, same process, same expectation. As I've tried to make clear, this isn't to be handled like the "permissions" that admins grant. A full rfA process means full community vetting.

Where the confusion laid was I was referring to certain commenters not ALL commenters, when noting that the process might be less stressful due to not having all of the admin package. That some individuals feel that block is worse than delete. Not that I felt that way. So that's why some people were getting the idea that I thought that. (I obviously don't.) - jc37 21:54, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I realize that this isn't your intent, but I believe that it would be a consequence of the proposal's success (and one not unintended by many of its supporters).

In my view, the level of trust needed to grant modship should be the same as that needed to grant adminship, so I see no reason for the community to draw such a distinction (as opposed to simply permitting trustworthy users to decline/relinquish access to tools that they don't need/want). —David Levy 23:33, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

That's back to basics and it's the theory that most people (and I ) appear to uphold: if someone can be trusted with one of the tools, they can be trusted with them all. Which again renders any discussion about 'admin lite', moderators (WP is NOT a web forum, if we start using that word people will think it is), trial adminship, and other unbundling, superfluous. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:51, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Comment. Per normal, groupthink has set in. Jc37, you really don't get it. The reason many people support your proposal is specifically because they feel it is a start in separating admins from their oftentimes arbitrary use of block and delete.

David Levy. You are assuming that the stupidity of the current process for full admin vetting will continue and get worse. You also just don't get it. Many people want lower levels of adminship specifically because logically they will require less of the abusive vetting for full admins. Logically, once many of these 2nd and 3rd level admins show good work, and not too many have their adminship removed, then people will see that there is also less need for such abusive vetting of full admins too.

And once people see that making it easier to remove admins at the 2nd and 3rd level is working in the percentage of cases where it is needed, then people will also see the utility of making it easier to remove full admins too. That will also lessen the need for such abusive vetting to begin with. It is amazing to me that the logic goggles get turned off so easily among admins. Such fanboy groupthink at all ages. See User:Timeshifter/More articles and less editors for more info on removing admins. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:47, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

You apparently believe that all editors (or at least admins) who disagree with you "don't get it" and deserve to be ridiculed via name-calling, so I see little point in continuing this exchange. —David Levy 05:09, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Timeshifter. My apologies for not making it clear that my last comments above were directed to David levy. We have been having a rather lengthy discussion, but we were both (as it turns out) somewhat talking past each other. We both knew we were misunderstanding each other, but not exactly certain what it was. And I have to admit, I think he understood at least sommewhat before I did. Hence, my "Aha" moment above.

As for why various individuals aren't supporting the proposal, there are several reasons, ask me again after this is over, and perhaps I'll share my thoughts with you : ) - jc37 04:15, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Too much rebuttal by proposer

It would be helpful if the proposer would refrain from commenting on so many of the "oppose" comments and votes in the Poll unless a specific request for clarification is asked of him/her. We are well aware of the proposers POV and don't really need so many responses to those who disagree. It's the equivalent of letting a candidate into the voting booth. It's unwelcome at the least. Vertium (talk to me) 14:37, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a democracy and this is not a "vote". And you're welcome to choose to not discuss.

Anyway, as I wrote the proposal, I'm clarifying anything which seems unclear. It's up to you whether you wish to respond. (and I have done so in the support section as well.)

I have NOT been attacking anyone for their comments, nor have I been badgering them to support the proposal. Everyone is welcome to their opinion.(Including you.) - jc37 14:48, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your confirmation of my right to an opinion and to comment on RfCs. I really appreciate that. I'll resist the strong urge to clarify what is seemingly unclear to you other than to make the point that I did not accuse you of anything. I simply suggested (politely, I might add) that your comments on the opposition comments could have a chilling effect. You defend your removal of selected quotes from the WMF Statement by arguing that "every Wikipedian can read", yet you feel the need to proactively comment on people's comments - because something "seems unclear". If we can all read, and there's so much lack of clarity in the proposal as currently written, perhaps it's best withdrawn and resubmitted when its clarity can be gleaned from reading it. Thank you. Vertium (talk to me) 15:52, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Nevermind. It's not worth it. Vertium (talk to me) 15:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

a.) You did accuse me of (among other things) "rebuttal". I was responding to that.

b.) I don't believe anything in my response was unpolite either.

c.) Oh I have no doubt that the proposal should be clearer. Since this was a lengthy proposal anyway, I was briefer in some things that in hindsight, I obviously I probably should not have been so brief about. I've since clarified a few things in the proposal (and noted them on the discussion page).

d.) I've considered re-submitting, both for those reasons, and because I probably should have personally asked for the WMF clarification from the start. Instead, several people have been unsure about the WMF when commenting. I haven't withdrawn simply because substantial discussion has already occurred, and now that we're here, we might as well continue on. I think (I hope) I've clarified the proposal at least somewhat better, so that should (hopefully) be less of an issue. As you may or may not have noted, I haven't needed to clarify much in either the support or oppose sections recently since adding those clarifications to the proposal.

My goal in this is clarity and understanding. So that everyone can openly and informedly express their opinions/perspectives/comments.

I hope this clarifies for you. - jc37 17:45, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

At the risk of redundancy, I needed no clarification. I consider this particular discussion closed. No further comments from me will be forthcoming in this thread. You and I don't see eye to eye on this, which is fine - and I genuinely do respect your right to your position. I'll maintain my opposition, but take a break from my involvement in this discussion, as conversations like this become circular far too quickly, rehashing the same points over and over without advancement of consensus. I believe I've clearly made my points in poll comments. I will leave it there without further participation on my part. Vertium (talk to me) 18:29, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Lack of good faith

The Before commenting, please read the proposal below thoroughly. and However, due to what is being proposed, the commenters really should clearly understand the proposal. text is offensive and shows a severe lack of good faith of the Wikipedian community, implying in advance that editors routinely don't read proposals in their entirety and are often too stupid and or lazy to make meaningful contributions to a discussion. Nobody Ent 12:44, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I dont think that is the case. I think it's more like "I know you've heard this a billion times, but just hear me out..."--v/r - TP 21:24, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Nod, it's happened a lot in other discussions. people look at the summary, presume what the proposal is the same as a bunch of others they've seen, then drive-by "vote".

It's human nature.

So I thought maybe if I begged, people might take a moment out of their busy day and read through the whole thing.

What didn't help was that it turns out that it actually wasn't long enough. I needed to clarify quite a few things that I had left out for the sake of brevity. Which was clearly a mistake on my part. - jc37 04:15, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm actually with Jc37 here. I don't particularly like the proposal, but the comments essentially said "pay attention, please" and "make sure you're replying to this proposal and not another similar one." Those comments seemed appropriate here, given how many variations of semi-admin or pseudo-admin have been proposed in the past.--Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 05:20, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Automatic right to "upgrade"?

A thought I've had, which may sway my !vote, is whether "moderators" would have the automatic right "upgrade" to admins (should they so wish at any time). My rationale for asking this is that if the Foundation are insisting that "moderators" must (a) go through the same process and (b) meet the same criteria as admins then they will have already passed RfA. If afterwards someone wishes to changed their bit from "moderator" or "administrator" (or vice versa) then that is their choice.

Like others, also, I wouldn't like this to become a barrier to folk becoming admins (e.g. where people might be expected to become a "mod" first before requesting again to become an "admin"). If a "mod" could simply opt to become an "admin" then there would be no possibility of that. Linking the two would would also safeguard against what the Foundation caution about when they warn that, "If the selection criteria or processes should drift from that used for the selection of administrators, we would need to reconsider the position."

The crucial thing, however, would be that allowing someone to opt for the proposed "mod" (instead of "admin") bit may act to invite more people into the admin corp — but under the title of "moderator" that may attract less hassle and suspicion from other editors. I'm dubious about the "pacifist" argument, but a reduced "moderator" suite might also be more appealing than the full "admin" suite for some.

Finally, it might also do something to break down the "big deal" that surrounds adminship if someone with the "mod" bit could simply opt to be an "admin" (and vice versa). --RA (talk) 17:25, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I inquired about this in the thread that arose from my opposition (section link). Jc37 indicated that moderators would need to go through another RfA to seek adminship, on the basis that the original discussion didn't establish sufficient trust. I, too, have struggled to understand how this jibes with the Wikimedia Foundation's position. (See this discussion for details.) —David Levy 23:19, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

My reading of the Foundation's position is that it RfAs and "RfMs" would need to be "exactly the same" (their emphasis) and "using the same criteria, operating on the same page" (their emphasis again), "If the selection criteria or processes should drift from that used for the selection of administrators, [they] would need to reconsider the position." That sounds pretty unambiguous, so I don't see the point in asking someone who fulfills the criteria to be a "moderator" sitting through an RfA again. Just give it to them if they choose. --RA (talk) 23:44, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree. In fact, I see no point in addressing the distinction at RfA. Just allow users whose requests are successful to decide which package they prefer (with the option to switch later). —David Levy 23:52, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I would be of that opinion too. And if that were part of the proposal, I would probably support it. Would you be of the same mind? However, a new problem would then present itself: the proposal as it stands makes reference to removal of the "mod" bit from a user by community consensus, which is not current practice with the "admin" bit.

I don't see the proposal as it is currently formulated attaining consensus (opinion is pretty evenly divided); but I wonder if it is worthwhile looking at oppose !votes and seeing how they could be addressed? --RA (talk) 00:09, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't object to the technical creation of admin group variants lacking certain tools, provided that no distinction is drawn at RfA. (As you noted, this includes the special recall provision.)

However, it seems unlikely that many administrators would decline the current package, so I don't know whether the community would consider such an endeavor worthwhile. —David Levy 01:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

David Levy. Many people are interested in admin-lite classes. Especially if they don't have to go through the current abusive RFA process. They would gladly turn down the full admin package in order to avoid the current RFA process. And WMF only insists on the current RFA process for admins with undeletion tools. Also, many people want easier recall of admins and admin-lites. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:36, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

That's irrelevant to the current proposal and the alternative discussed above. —David Levy 07:49, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I was replying to you. I said "David Levy". You discussed "admin group variants lacking certain tools". In the same comment you said "seems unlikely that many administrators would decline the current package." One logical implication from your comment is that there aren't many people who would be interested in admin group variants where administrators could decline the current package. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:16, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I was replying to you.

Are you under the impression that I've suggested otherwise?

I said "David Levy".

And I replied.

You discussed "admin group variants lacking certain tools".

And I explicitly referred to "RfA" in the same sentence. I wasn't addressing tools to which access is granted elsewhere, which don't carry the "admin" designation.

In the same comment you said "seems unlikely that many administrators would decline the current package."

Indeed. It seems unlikely that many users, having passed RfA and attained adminship, would choose to decline access to tools available to them.

This has nothing to do with a hypothetical scenario in which users qualify for heretofore nonexistent tool packages outside RfA. —David Levy 08:47, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

And you still missed my main point. I was replying to you. But glad you clarified your point about RFA. --Timeshifter (talk) 09:00, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

And you still missed my main point. I was replying to you.

I honestly don't know what point you're making or how I'm contradicting it. Sorry. —David Levy 09:19, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it should be automatic, but it could be useful to have mod status as a prerequisite for RfA. This would mean every admin candidate would have already demonstrated their content collaboration skills. Discussion at RfA would then concentrate on demonstrable understanding of policy and the candidate's suitability for using the block/protect tools and dealing with behavioural issues. - Pointillist (talk) 14:22, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

"Handle deletion"

It's obvious that (51-44 19:00, 2 July 2012 (UTC)) there is no consensus to implement this proposal completely.

However, reading the opposes, I judge that most of the opposes have to do with the "Handle deletion" toolkit.

• Some editors (like me) don't want to give out the handle-deletion toolkit more easily;
• Others object to an RfA for this toolkit without receiving the other tools, etc.

There may be an overwhelming majority supporting the creation of a moderator-class, with the other powers (not "handle deletion"). Editors opposed to such a moderator-class should write additional opposes, addressing that option.

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

If the big deal is with deletion, then the obvious solution is to have a separate process for handing out all of the associated rights, quite separate from any other. And on an associated topic, am I the only one who's completely pissed off with every new user right being granted to existing administrators automatically, but never being able to be taken away? Malleus Fatuorum 22:24, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Many people agree with you there. It's a math problem. Many people can't seem to understand that part of the reason it is so difficult to remove admins is because it is so difficult to become an admin nowadays. People know that if they remove admins it will be difficult to replace them. So we keep going on with this insanity. It is kind of like the US Senate. A supermajority vote (60%) gets things passed. And so the status quo continues even though a majority of people may oppose this and that. A majority of people oppose the current chaos due to the lack of real moderation on Wikipedia. But little is done about it because it takes a supermajority consensus on Wikipedia to change anything. Totally nuts. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:49, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I am more pissed off by this David Levy, whomever he is, editing my comments, including moving this section and others without even leaving even a note.

I trust that he will be blocked the next time he edits another's talk-page comments. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Most of the discussion sections were moved to this subpage. This wasn't my decision, and I don't object to moving all of them back (if that's what consensus dictates). But there's no logic in arbitrarily starting new ones on the poll page (thereby creating confusion and misleading users to believe that all of the discussion is occurring there) or restoring outdated versions without replies that occurred here. You're being disruptive. —David Levy 14:48, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Note: Jc37 has recombined the pages (so the above references to "this subpage" and "the poll page" are outdated). —David Levy 16:10, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Alternative process consideration

Seems from the discussion that there is a split based on many wanting a different selection process than what the WMF is suggesting. Perhaps the best process would be to allow admins to decide on moderators. Basically, perhaps a system where after an editor is nominated an uninvolved admin reviews the editor's contributions and states whether he or she supports that editor having moderator tools or not. If another uninvolved admin seconds that support and there are no objections to the candidate from another uninvolved admin within a reasonable timeframe, say a week, the mod status is granted. Non-admins would be able to comment, but it would be more akin to sheriffs deputizing citizens with Robert's rules-style checks to prevent any one admin from picking a bad apple.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:38, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

This isn't merely a suggestion on the WMF's part; it's a condition on which its approval (without which such a change cannot be implemented, irrespective of consensus) is contingent. "If the selection criteria or processes should drift from that used for the selection of administrators, [they] would need to reconsider the position." —David Levy 23:52, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

"Reconsider" does not mean "will not support" as they could reconsider and find the alternative approach to be suitable.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:48, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm clarifying that the stipulation isn't a mere "suggestion". It's an explicit condition of the current approval (assuming that consensus is reached). The WMF could agree to an alternative approach, but this has yet to occur.

And based upon other comments ("We're not saying that criteria can't change - just that if it changes for admins, it must have a mirrored change for moderators. Not two different sets of standards." "What we're trying to say is this: we can't have moderators be 'admin-lite', or a training ground for admins. Promotion must be taken just as seriously, because they have access to some seriously important stuff."), it seems highly unlikely that the WMF would agree to anything along the lines of the system outlined above. —David Levy 01:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

And which alternative approach might that be? The WMF's clear intention is to deflect the responsibility for any legal repercussions surrounding deleted material onto the Wikipedia community and away from itself, therefore an RfA-like process is clearly mandatory. I think they're pissing in the wind, but that's their choice. Malleus Fatuorum 01:10, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Devil's Advocate. That is a great idea. But it would only work for some kind of moderator/admin without undeletion tools. David Levy obfuscates (deliberately?) the fact that WMF only requires the current RFA process for any admin class with undeletion tools. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:38, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't appreciate the accusation. The Devil's Advocate explicitly referred to the "moderator" package and the possibility that it could be granted under terms other than those specified by the WMF. —David Levy 07:49, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

It was a question, not an accusation. "Moderator" can be many things. I offered clarity on what the WMF said. Specifically, requiring the current RFA process for undeletion tools. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:10, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

You accused me of obfuscating (deliberately or not) a fact immaterial to the above discussion, in which no reference to alternative tool sets was made. —David Levy 08:47, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I struck out the offending part of my comment above. It is not immaterial though that "moderator" can mean many things. --Timeshifter (talk) 09:06, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I struck out the offending part of my comment above.

Thank you.

It is not immaterial though that "moderator" can mean many things.

If the Devil's Advocate meant something other than the specific package currently proposed under that name, this was unclear to me. —David Levy 09:19, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

While I was referring to the current proposal for modship, if undeletion and with it the ability to view deleted material is the only concern then that task could still be left up to admins. I believe DRV is the only noticeboard mentioned, which does not have a serious backlog as far as I know so it would not be a serious loss to leave that power out of the hands of mods.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:58, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Withdrawn

Well, what I said in the proposal about train wrecks seems to once again come to fruition. Though this time, though it involved the process, it was more the confusion concerning the WMF and undelete/seeing deleted material.

I fault myself in not running this by them before starting the straw poll.

Problem two was because I was aware the proposal was lengthy, I left out some clarifications, and some of what I had included wasn't clear.

In any case, withdrawing this. I'll work on it some, and let some time go by before suggesting another user group/user-right package.

My sincere thank you to all who joined in this discussion : ) - jc37 16:19, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome. Best of luck! It was a worthy proposal, answering long-felt needs. Debresser (talk) 23:18, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Good luck. I'm not opposed to it in any principled way. Just some real practical issues ought to be dealt with. I'm all for another kick at the can when it's had some work. Shooterwalker (talk) 00:14, 4 July 2012 (UTC)