Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Beer/Archive 10

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Awards

There has recently been some discussion about including awards in articles about breweries, specifically what kind of awards are worthy of being listed there. The article that started the discussion originally looked like this, listing more than 70 awards. Then all the awards were removed by Drmies, with the edit summary "we're not a directory of beers. these awards, great, but they're a dime a dozen: there's a million awards for a million categories, enough for every beer in the world to win gold or silver.".[1] Then the gold and first place awards were restored by Carrite, with the edit summary "Restoring gold and first place awards, which are noteworthy".[2] Then I took out all the awards except those from the Great American Beer Fest and the World Beer Cup, with the edit summary "deleting all but the most notable awards, namely GABF and World Beer Cup. We don't normally list state fairs and regional festivals even if they are "international"." This was based on what I have seen done at the beer articles I work on and I thought it was pretty much consensus. Apparently it isn't. Might we want to work out a consensus here for what kind of awards can be listed in brewery articles, and then maybe add it to the project guidelines? Thanks for any input. --MelanieN (talk) 17:22, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of the long lists of awards, of of beers (edit: not a fan of lists of type sof beers sold by a brewery) for that matter. It seems to be WP:NPOV and/or WP:Peacock, although the last is more syntacical than thematic. Still. My question is if we list awards, where do we draw the line on which organizations? I agree that state fairs are not really notable. But GABF hands out a lot of Gold and Silver awards in different categories. WBC showers even more. Where's the line? And, then, once a line is drawn it shoudl go into WP:ListBrew so it can be referenced when they get deleted out. Prof. Mc (talk) 18:06, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, the bottom line is always GNG - coverage by independent reliable sources. I don't know about your area, but where I live GABF and World Beer Cup awards always rate a full, staff-written article in both the local paper and the regional paper - so they kind of seem like a gimme. Or should we combine my approach (GABF and WBC) with Carrite's (gold medals and firsts) to say that we should list only gold/first awards and only from one of those two events? --MelanieN (talk) 19:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

P.S. After we reach agreement here - or maybe even before - somebody needs to take an axe to Ballast Point Brewing Company. --MelanieN (talk) 19:48, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

I would like to thank @MelanieN: for informing me of this conversation. I am not as active as I was in years past on Wikipedia, but I am happy to provide a additional opinion. I think the question is what awards are notable themselves, and are the national industry equivalents to the Oscars, Golden Globe, Tonys, or British Academy Film Awards. While there might be reliable sources on more local awards, if those awards are not themselves not notable perhaps their inclusion (if any at all) should be included in a critical reception section (like how films have them).--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:31, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

I really appreciate that you've come into this conversation, @RightCowLeftCoast:. It's a helpful perspective, and not least of which because I like it. ;) I wonder how we establish notability. Nationally-recognized? Regionally? Internationally? I think @MelanieN:'s listing of GABF and WBC are spot-on. Probably a list of them here at WP:Beer is necessary, with folks allowed to add more with some kind of criteria? Prof. Mc (talk) 21:18, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Howdy, folks. If you take a look at Wikipedia:Notability#Notability guidelines do not apply to content within an article, you'll see that -- wait for it -- notability guidelines do not apply to content within an article. The notability guidelines are just for determining which subjects should have their own article. So, within a brewery article, the beer awards themselves do not have to be notable. But, that doesn't necessarily mean they should all be included, either. In general, some article content could be so trivial as to not be worth mentioning, because it doesn't really help the reader understand the subject any better. That said, I think it would sometimes make sense to include some pretty minor awards in brewery articles. As to where to draw the line, I'm not sure. It seems to me that if a brewery has tons of awards, it might be better to include only the relatively important ones. But if, say, a new microbrewery has only won the bronze medal for best IPA at the state fair, I think it's okay to include that. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:38, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

• As stated in the edit summary above, I'm of the WIKIPEDIA IS NOT PAPER school of thought here... Gold medals at state fairs and such could and should be included, in my estimation. Obviously, the way the article in question started, with 70 awards down to third place finishes, wasn't anybody's idea of a correct handling of the matter. But neither should high honors that are not the highest honors be ignored, in my view. I don't do a lot of brewery pieces, your mileage may vary. Carrite (talk) 01:55, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

If the article in question is Ballast Point Brewing Company, that one's problematic anyway. The only reference to all of those is the brewery's own website. Probably a violation of WP:OR. Prof. Mc (talk) 10:29, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

• This is an interesting discussion as we have no clear guidance on Wikipedia for what content should and should not be used in articles. Largely it is left to editorial judgement. We do have guidelines, such as Wikipedia:Good_article_criteria] which say that an article should stay "focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail", though links go to splitting off information into sub articles, so the advice is not about importance and relevance of the material, but on keeping an article to a readable size. Notability guidelines, as mentioned above, relate to stand alone articles, rather than content in a section of an existing notable article. We have Wikipedia:Out of scope, Wikipedia:Relevance of content, WP:OFFTOPIC, WP:INDISCRIMINATE, etc, in which we get the sense that material should be focused and pertinent, but nothing clear and specific. I think the reason for that is that it is down to the editors to decide what may be encyclopaedic for any given article. If a brewery is notable for having won a lot of awards, then that info would be deemed worthy of inclusion by saying something like: "Green Flash have won a number of awards, including one of the gold awards for beer style at the 2008 World Beer Cup", though the statement is best supported by an independent reliable source (ie, not the brewery themselves, nor the Brewers Association who run the competition). In the UK it is considered notable that a beer has won Champion Beer of Britain (CBOB), but not so much for one of the style category awards. I don't see much helpful in having a section for an award, unless something meaningful could be said about the beer and the award - ie, more than just a mere listing. In the UK, Timothy Taylor's Landlord is famous for having won CBOB four times, while Fuller's ESB has won it three times. The respective articles deal with this in different ways, though both put the awards in some form of context by using prose. Merely listing an award without putting it into context is unhelpful. If we are to mention that Green Flash won an award at the 2008 Beer World Cup, then let's at least make it clear for readers that they didn't win one of the Champion Brewery awards, but simply one of the less distinguished beer category awards, of which in that competition 91 golds were handed out that year. And let's use some independent sources so we can escape from the accusation that we may be falling victim to a marketing ploy.

In short, I'm not sure we can draw up an appropriate guideline, other than to say that if reliable sources have covered it, then so should we; and if the only sources are the brewery and the award giver, then we should be dubious about mentioning it at all. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:26, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

• I've always liked the approach that, if it's important enough to place it in a list, you should be able to write two or three sentences justifying it and placing it in context....Then use that instead of the list.Beakerboy (talk) 15:22, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Main beer cat discussion

I came here to take part in the above awards discussion, looked at a brewery article and noted that the main beer category, Category:Beer and breweries by country is being considered for renaming to Category:Beer by country. I'm not clear on how helpful that is as the cat was created by this project in order to keep beer and breweries together, and I suspect that taking "breweries" out of the name may encourage a parallel cat system to run alongside the main beer cat, but without an umbrella cat to hold them both. I suspect the rationale is that breweries would remain under beer, but in reality I think that would require some kind of monitoring. However, I am unsure. The discussion is here (or Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2016_June_4#Category:Beer_and_breweries_by_country) if anyone's interested. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:40, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Untappd userbox

Hi everyone,

While most of my edits concern video games, outside of Wikipedia I'm a huge lover of beer. When I was updating my user page the other day, I wondered if a Untappd userbox exists; it did not. Well, now it does! I've created the userbox template just so that other people can use it just as easily. See {{User untappd}}. Kind regards, soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 13:01, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

5 Rabbit Cervecería

5 Rabbit Cervecería is currently being considered for deletion. Interested editors can contribute to the discussion, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/5 Rabbit Cervecería. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 19:19, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

2016 Community Wishlist Survey Proposal to Revive Popular Pages

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• Fix and improve Mr.Z-bot's popular pages report

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More changes needed? Canadian Beer articles

I have been doing edits on several articles about beer in Canada. Beer in Canada, Sleeman Breweries, Moosehead Breweries, Alexander Keith's, Formosa, Ontario brewery, Creemore Springs and several others. If anyone has interest in these topics, check them out. If additional revisions are needed, let's discuss in each article's Talk page. Peter K Burian (talk) 23:09, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Major changes to many beer articles. More revisions needed?

In the past week or so, I have been updating several articles relating to beer, world wide.

If anyone is interested in this topic, please take a look at these primary articles and let's discuss in their Talk sections if they still need other changes.

SABMiller Anheuser-Busch InBev MillerCoors Miller Brewing Company Molson Coors Asahi Breweries Pilsner Urquell Brewery South African Breweries Thanks,Peter K Burian (talk) 23:07, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Brewery links in state list articles

In the "List of breweries in [U.S. state]" articles, we've been removing links to the breweries' own websites. But, should such links be allowed? Not to verify that a brewery actually exists -- for that a third-party reference should be used (for example, a newspaper or magazine article about the brewery). And not as embedded links, from the text of the brewery names. But as additional links the brewery webpages could be helpful to readers. And articles about individual breweries do have such links. The current version of List of breweries in Hawaii is an example of how this might look. Most of the breweries in the article have third-party references as footnotes, but there's also a separate column for the brewery web page links. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:22, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

External links to company websites should not be in the lists, only links to reliable, independent sources or internal wikilinks. The ones in that Hawaii article should all be removed. Interested readers can follow the wikilinks to the articles about the breweries, and find their websites there in the "External links" section.—Anne Delong (talk) 05:46, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Would anyone else care to comment? The question is, should links to the breweries' own web sites be allowed in the "List of breweries in [U.S. state]" articles? And, why or why not? Wouldn't these links be helpful to our readers? Or are they "link spam", promoting a commercial enterprise? Note that articles for individual breweries, or for other companies, do include links to their own web sites. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:56, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Standards for including breweries in beer style articles

Some of this project's articles on beer styles tend to attract some single-purpose editors who add lines like "Smiling Jack's Brewery and Burgers in Winnipeg brewed its first Gose with apples and blueberries", with a link to Smiling Jack's website. While such inclusions may be helpful in publicizing the brewery to Wikipedia readers in Manitoba, I don't feel that are very helpful to the general public. I think that it is helpful to readers to identify some prominent commercial examples, which would enable a reader to potentially obtain a relevant example of a style, but I think that at least, any examples should be 1) limited in number, so we're not listing EVERY brewery that makes an IPA, for example, 2) widely distributed, so there is a reasonable chance of my being able to obtain a sample, and 3) continuously made, so no one-off or seasonal examples that I won't be able to get at some time or another. In formulating such a guideline, I think we'd run into venerability issues; how do we verify that brewery X has a widespread distribution? I think we'd also run into conflict over how we limit the number; why is (my favorite brewery)'s beer not listed but (a different brewery) is listed? I'm not looking for a way to create more drama, but a way to clean up some of the articles like Gose, for example. Any thoughts? Neil916 (Talk) 21:25, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Popular pages report

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Goose Island article

Hello. There is currently a lively discussion at Talk:Goose Island Brewery#Awards, promotion, and notability, about what material is suitable for inclusion, and how to go about improving the article. Interested editors are invited to contribute to the conversation. Thanks. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:41, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

List of Belgian Beers

Hello Beerlovers,
I've started and Update/correction process on List_of_Belgian_beer, all help is welcome, suggestions on Talkpage

• to update / correct the list
• to add references to both beers and breweries from reference sites like Biere en Belgique, Belgenbier, Ratebeer, Beeradvocate or Untapped , and from the brewer or brandowner/reseller
• to create a page for each brewery Like the Brasserie_Grain_d'Orge_(Hombourg) page
• pages for each beer might lead too far as there are over 1600 beers to be described

I've modified the header layout of the list to differentiate between

• Sort : Beer_in_Belgium type classification
• Fermentation method : refer to the page Brewing#Fermenting use Top Fermentation, Lager, Lambic or Gueuze

--DerekvG (talk) 16:59, 3 September 2017 (UTC)