Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Bodybuilding

Initial discussion

There are a bunch of things we should probably discuss:

• Article format / layout. I've been striving for a fairly uniform layout in the female bodybuilder profiles I've worked on, but there should probably be one standard.
• Dealing with competing projects. A few women (Marianna Komlos, Melissa Coates, Nicole Bass, and some others) have also been involved in pro wrestling. As you probably know, the Wikipedia pro wrestling community is very active, to say the least. There's no way that the bodybuilding project will be able to exercise "control" over these particular pages, so we'll need to be able to co-exist in these cases. I don't know if there are other competing projects, but it's something to be aware of.
• Fitness / figure. Should fitness / figure be included? To me, the answer is yes - it's closely related and should be part of the project, but others might disagree. It's also an area where I'm less knowledgeable, and so far, there doesn't seem to be anyone else actively working to improve that area.
• Dealing with AfD's. Notability is a frequent reason cited in votes for deletion. WP:BIO says that professional athletes or those who have competed at the highest amateur level are notable. There are a few cases where someone (not me) has created articles on lower-level amateurs (for example, Cindy Phillips, Melissa Dettwiller), so articles of this type might theoretically be at risk. Just something to keep an eye on, I guess.
• Scope. Individual profiles and contests seem obvious (but how far down into the amateur ranks?), but there could be other things, like magazines, bodybuilders in movies, etc.
• Historical stuff. It would be nice to have profiles on significant old-timers (people like Charles Atlas, Eugen Sandow, etc.), but those articls are harder to write due to lack of source material. Which leads to my next point...
• Source material. Since theoretically every article should be referenced, it might be useful if we could assemble a list of what non-Internet resources the project participants have available.

There are probably other things that should be hashed out, but I think this is enough rambling for now. fbb_fan 03:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow, fantastic and to think I thought I may be doing this alone. There are two other users who I can immediately thing of to assist us, both Yankees76 and Bizkit 21 2002 are fantastic contributors and (like yourself) very knowledgeable and active in bbing articles. I'll be inviting both of them in the hope they'll be keen to join us.

You have raised some really great points above. Here are some of the tasks I thought of as well:

1. Reference Like yourself, concerned about number of completely unreferenced articles
2. Categorize - Bio articles are especially bad (or at least were - awesome work fixing the categorization of the Category:Professional bodybuilders articles (I went to do this today and it was done!) - also we should ensure the geographic bodybuilder subcategories are listed
3. Stubbing - {{Bodybuilding-stub}} is now official - so pages which contain little information need this added
4. Copyrighted images almost every bio page has no image, or, even worse uses a copyrighted image from a magazine which is not being used correctly under the fair use doctrine. These images need to be replaced with a legitimate image (ideally), or removed at this time
5. Formatting The articles do not follow the guidelines of WP:MOS. Small things like External Links instead of External links, lists of titles or shows that use the <br/> code to insert each line instead of a * bullet point format.
6. Consistency Currently the bio pages use completely different styles and terminology. Some will say Bodybuilding titles, others Titles won, Bodybuilding career etc. One template needs to be decided on and used throughout.
7. Complete List of professional bodybuilders - currently Category:Professional bodybuilders is a good place to start as I tried to be thorough when categorising this from the many geographical bodybuilder categories.
8. Expand We need to build articles so they are Wikipedia:Featured article level. Our goal should to promptly built at least one bodybuilding article to featured article status (and no the Arnold article does not count!)
9. New articles To complete the Category:Bodybuilding by writing new articles so the category encompasses all notable subjects within the bodybuilding realm. As you've mentioned, scores of IFBB pro and amateur articles are missing, too many Red links when listing notable shows, and even the articles regarding notable supplements and/or supplement companies.

We should add this under tasks on the main page, and once again great work! - Glen 06:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Are categories like Category:Canadian bodybuilders a subcat of Category:Bodybuilding or should the bodybuilding category be added to articles in individual bodybuilders?Skookum1 07:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The categories for bodybuilders from individual countries are subcategories of Category:Bodybuilders, so the bodybuilding and bodybuilders categories should not be added. If a category for the country does not exist, it should be created. There are currently a few individuals in Category:Bodybuilders; they should be moved to the appropriate country subcategory. fbb_fan 22:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Size of images

I'm not familiar enough with Wiki image rules to know if there's a limit to an image size; I created Kevin O'Toole (bodybuilder) and it's a big image relative to what else I've seen...smaller pictures don't seem to cut it, but if it has to be reduced what's the max standard/allowable?Skookum1 07:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The best thing is to thumb the image - it should be thumbed to be fairly small, so it doesn't dominate the page. The full image can still be seen by clicking on the thumb. I reduced the size of the thumbnail image a bit. fbb_fan 22:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

No. of images

I'm also wondering, given the highly visual nature of bodybuilding/bodybuilders, if more than one, maybe up to three, images per athlete profile might be acceptable; although come to think of it other bios have more than one image. This is not to say pages should be gallery pages, with LOTS of images; just enough to illustrate either different poses, or maybe different shows. I know in the case of the one page I've written so far (Kevin O'Toole) he DOES prefer only his most recent/top-ranked win, but a career is a career; one of my favourite sequences for him is the succession of double-bi shots from the successive shows, thereby showing the improvement in his physique from his novice show to his not-quite-pro card. Just wondering about a standard within WikiProject bodybuilding, as there are other Canadian and Pacific NW bodybuilders I'm ready to contribute pics/articles on (including Aaron Maddron's Mr. Oregon win in '93) and want so guidelines from other project participants; also got some nice guest-posing ones of Sharon Bruneau, by the way...And I think if there are contest pages, class or overall lineup shots/comparisons would be worthwhile (esp. when the judges didn't know what the f**k they were doing)....Skookum1 00:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a reasonable idea, if done with some qualifications:

1. Stating the obvious, but we should avoid copyright violations. Pictures you took yourself are no problem, of course - just be sure to mark them appropriately when you upload them so that nobody tags them for copyright issues.
2. I would avoid multiple pictures if an article is extremely short
3. I think multiple pictures have value in a few cases - showing an athlete's evolving physique over time, showing someone at the time of a big win, possibly if someone pioneered a unique pose, etc.
4. So far at least, we don't have pages on specific contests. For example, there are entries for the Mr. Olympia and Ms. Olympia, but not separate pages for each contest, year by year. So unless / until this changes, it's probably overkill to add group / lineup shots, unless there's something exceptionally notable about them. Also, I suggest treading very lightly when you think the judging was wrong, to be sure to maintain NPOV.

fbb_fan 03:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

There were a lot of links added to bodybuilding-related articles by Rhino399 (talk · contribs) and 70.181.209.60 (talk · contribs). Unless this project considers them an irreplaceable encyclopedic resource, they should be considered linkspam and be removed. - WikiProject Spam. You can help! Femto 19:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 19:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Talk Page Template

We need a talk page template for bodybuilding related articles, if anyone wants to take the time. The current tiny header redirects to Wikipedia Wikibreak. Quadzilla99 08:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Weight training FAR

Weight training has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Contest lists/articles

Please see this, much of which I probably should just have written here; I'm not around the project much, although I do monitor it; I'll be recusing myself from Wikipedia in the next few months (I'm busy in certain other areas....too much) but am kind of tidying up things I meant to say or do or suggest; this (same link) is one of those. The absence of information in the "middle" level shows, or what I used to call regional-level - never mind the absence of the qualifying process for the IFBB card, which it's all part of and one and the same - was surprising in the main Bodybuilding article, but that's OK; I see you've got issues with what's in or out, like Teenage or Master's...I just think in terms of content about "Bodybuilding in the United States", say, the nationals-qualifying shows in each region are worth listing, and it's a long list, ultimately (even not including the state championships). I just think it would be useful, and might attract interest in athletes in keeping their rankings in place (as the pages would/could include historical class winners in a table-list or whatever). This is much bigger-scale than anything going on in this wikiproject I know; but such lists have been useful to help organize projects, too, by way of making sure everything's accounted for. Another reason is that, if I'm in a good mood, I could contribute pictures from older Emerald Cups and Pacific Coasts and such as I've done for certain other articles....but I'm not prepared to build all the show articles; life's only so long....Skookum1 08:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The out-of-shape-pro guest poser pics are always fun, but I wouldn't be so nasty as to post them; I do have some stunners of Sharon Bruneau at the 92 Emerald Cup, though, covered in metal bodybpaint (gold, but I shot b&w), and at another show in Victoria a year or two later.Skookum1 08:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Ian King

Can someone take a look at the article on Ian King. Currently it seems that subject lack notability big time. Aditya Kabir 14:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I must agree, the subject doesn't seem notable. From some googling, it seems that Ian King does have some significant accomplishments, but I can't find any reliable sources from which to write a proper article. I suggest deletion. Mipchunk 17:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Bodybuilding poses

As far as I can tell, the Wikipedia does not have a list of bodybuilding poses. This would be beneficial, not just because it is interesting in its own right, but to help wikipedians like me who don't know a whole lot about bodybuilding annotate bodybuilding photos on Wikipedia with the proper pose names. Jason Quinn (talk) 14:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Steve Holt (bodybuilder)

To me Steve Holt is a character on Arrested Development (Gob's illegitimate son)....I placed the notability tag on his article, as he's only placed first in one competition - a grandmasters class....needless to say there's lots of many more notable bodybuilders "even in Canada". I think we need to establish notability criteria for bodybuilding competitors that are inline with Wikipedia's regular notability guidelines, which may be more than enough but maybe there are special considerations for bodybuilders, can't say yet...I note the Ian King section above also, and I'd say we have to keep a watch on the Category:Bodybuilders hierarchy for "vanity pieces". Only regional/national winners, or those who have gotten press copy for some other reason, would seem to qualify under regular notability guidelines. This one I almost placed speedy delete on but maybe he's had enough media appearances and interviews and such to warrant inclusion, so I gave it a chance by just placing the notability tag....Skookum1 (talk) 16:23, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Never heard of him and his article reads like an ad. The site www.vegetarianbodybuilder.com that links from the article goes nowhere. I did find some self published material on Bodybuilding.com [1] and Facebook [2], but nothing that would make him notable enough to have an article. Doesn't even reach the notabolity level of Ian King (above) who's page was deleted, so a speedy delete on this one shouldn't ruffle too many (if any) feathers.--Yankees76 (talk) 16:44, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Post-cycle therapy

Input from members of this project would be grately appreciated. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 21:54, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Removal of Kevin O'Toole image - ??

Apparently this got taken out back in '07 and I missed any notice that it would be removed; as its uploader I certainly never received a notice of it. I looked at the log and it's User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson who did it and his reason for deleting it was simply "bullshit". This is the delete log. I've posted a query on his talkpage but he hasn't made any edits since 2008 so I'm not really expecting an answer as to "why is it bullshit?". I don't have a digi-copy of that image handy (on an old hard drive maybe, but have to rig it up to get at it) and I gather they're not kept as backup. But who was this person, i.e. was he an admin, or can any old fool delete an image for a reason as spurious as "bullshit"? Did he not think it was a real image? (it was, and not morphed in anyway). My guess is "just a muscle-hater".....Skookum1 (talk) 19:16, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Melissa Coates

I'm working on expanding and sourcing this article, but any help would be appreciated. WP:Articles for deletion/Melissa Coates Niteshift36 (talk) 10:01, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Are there enough articles on this subject to justify an Outline of bodybuilding?

Here's a discussion about subject development you might find interesting.

The Transhumanist 23:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

GAN backlog reduction - Sports and recreation

As you may know, we currently have 400 good article nominations, with a large number of them being in the sports and recreation section. As such, the waiting time for this is especially long, much longer than it should be. As a result of this, I am asking each sports-related WikiProject to review two or three of these nominations. If this is abided by, then the backlog should be cleared quite quickly. Some projects nominate a lot but don't review, or vice-versa, and following this should help to provide a balance and make the waiting time much smaller so that our articles can actually get reviewed! Wizardman 23:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Infobox for strength training exercises

Anyone else think this would be useful? I would propose using the classification/muscle info used on each exrx page. Bench press, for example. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 15:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

FAR Anabolic steroid

I have nominated Anabolic steroid for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination for Pauline Nordin

There don't seem to be some any specific notability guidelines for bodybuilders, but based on the current article vis-a-vis WP:ATHLETE she doesn't seem to qualify for a Wikpedia article. Since I don't know much about this area, I invite expert commentary and possibly article improvement from here. Pcap ping 13:14, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Tommi Thorvildsen article made

I just made this; the contest history from probodybuilding.com ends at 2003, I don't know his history since then; I'll be looking/soliciting a PD/fair-use image for the article. Not sure if other categories apply, maybe so.Skookum1 (talk) 15:35, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Night of the Champions

I noticed this was a redlink when making Thorvildsen's article; I don't know enough about the show to give it a writeup, though....Skookum1 (talk) 16:34, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Geir Borgan Paulsen - first Norwegian pro?

I think he was the first Norwegian pro bodybuilder, or the first one to rank internationally anyway. There must have been other Norwegian champions, i.e. that got pro cards, but I'm unaware of any that "made a mark" in IFBB pro shows; I wanted to add this to the article but don't have a cite for it; if it's wrong, please kibbitz/quibble.Skookum1 (talk) 16:26, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Sports Notability

There is discussion ongoing at Wikipedia_talk:BIO#RFC:_WP:Athlete_Professional_Clause_Needs_Improvement debating possible changes to the WP:ATHLETE notability guideline. As a result, some have suggested using WP:NSPORT as an eventual replacement for WP:ATHLETE. Editing has begun at WP:NSPORT, please participate to help refine the notability guideline for the sports covered by this wikiproject. —Joshua Scott (LiberalFascist) 03:06, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

1965 Mr. Olympia

I've begun a series on Mr. Olympia. This project seems to be dead. If anybody here is active please develop the competitions by year. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 09:31, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Request

Could somebody here have a look at Brendan Stote? The background is that the article's creator (whom I suspect but cannot yet prove to be Brendan himself) repeatedly removes any attempt to tag the article for any sort of maintenance or cleanup whatsoever (even {{wikify}} and {{uncat}}), so I've had to protect the page. However, the larger issue is that I'm not entirely convinced that he's notable enough to be here in the first place; I'm not familiar enough with the sport of weightlifting to know whether the claim actually constitutes genuine notability, or is just an exaggerated portrayal of a minor and unencyclopedic distinction — is the "International Powerlifting Association" (not the International Powerlifting Federation) even notable enough to have its titleholders recognized internationally as true "world record" holders? So could somebody have a gander at it and let me know if he even belongs here in the first place? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 20:39, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

NABBA Universe Page

Noticed many discrepancies in the Wikipedia listing of NABBA Universe Championships compared to the official list on the NABBA site. I went through and corrected the discrepancies for the male winners. I would guess there would be further issues though than I've had time to correct. Fillups44 (talk) 19:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Outline of bodybuilding

There is no Outline of bodybuilding.

See Portal:Contents/Outlines.

For a relevant discussion see: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds/archive 40#What do you think about making an Outline of Birds?

Here's the outline they created: Outline of birds.

The Transhumanist 18:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Sports outlines currently under development include:

• Outline of basketball
• Outline of tennis
• Outline of motorcycles and motorcycling
• Outline of running
• Outline of cricket

Can you beat the other Sports WikiProjects to completion?

For the whole set of outlines on Wikipedia, see Portal:Contents/Outlines.

Here are some examples of developed outlines:

• Outline of cell biology
• Outline of meteorology (weather)
• Outline of Iceland
• Outline of Japan
• Outline of anarchism
• Outline of chocolate

The Transhumanist 23:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Mr. Canada article

I found this looking for Steve Brisbois, who needs an article like others on that list....see Talk:Mr. Canada for recommended name changes, and also re the lede stating which federation each athlete was from, i.e. which federation conferred teh "Mr. Canada" title (or "CAnadian overall bodybuilding champion" which might be one of the title forms....Skookum1 (talk) 21:24, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Caruso (photographer)

Caruso used to get plugged in Weider magazines quite a bit; worked with Ben Weider some, Montreal-based, one of the great "muscle portrait" photographers....not on Caruso disambig page so just dropping note here that, provided sources can be found, an article is needed on him re the History of bodybuilding....Skookum1 (talk) 18:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

IFBB/NPC NORTH AMERICAN CHAMPIONSHIPS

Can someone create a page for these? It seems to be the highest amateur national competition in the US. (according to our article on IFBB Mr. America) It's not very clear to me if the name should have IFBB or NPC in it [3]. Tijfo098 (talk) 21:24, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

SFAIK it would be IFBB as it couldn't be NPC as it also includes competitors from Canada (CBBF) and Mexico (MBBF?) and the Caribbean....it's also the highest-possible tier of amateur competition in Canada, though the Canadian Championships organizers might not admit that (i.e. the promoter, not the CBBF). List of North American Bodybuidling Championships winners or some such title; not sure if we have a standard contest-title format for this WP or not yet....Skookum1 (talk) 07:07, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Canada needs retitling

Aside from the observation that "Mr. Canada" does have other possible meanings than bodybuilding, with the addition of Canada Cup (bodybuilding) winners, this is no longer purely a list of Canadian national overall champions, i.e. men who . List of Canadian national bodybuilding championships winners or some such title would be preferred, partly because it could include non-verall winners; and in lower case wouldn't be limited to the CBBF Nationals or the Canada Cup (which SFAIK is also CBBF); either that or "(CBBF)" and "(WNBF)" dabs in each title for each series of champions.Skookum1 (talk) 07:07, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

WikiWomen's History Month

Hi everyone. March is Women's History Month and I'm hoping a few folks here at WP:Bodybuilding will have interest in putting on events (on and off wiki) related to women's roles in bodybuilding. We've created an event page on English Wikipedia (please translate!) and I hope you'll find the inspiration to participate. These events can take place off wiki, like edit-a-thons, or on wiki, such as themes and translations. Please visit the page here: WikiWomen's History Month. Thanks for your consideration and I look forward to seeing events take place! SarahStierch (talk) 21:08, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Relevant AfD

• Aziz Shavershian

Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aziz Shavershian for the relevant discussion. Thank you, -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 23:43, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

VASCULARITY page edited

Hi,

I'm not sure I know what I'm doing, or even if I'm in the right place. Anyway, I've edited and amplified the "Vascularity" entry and provided the references that were requested by this note from four years ago: This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2008)

Can a Moderator/Editor help me to remove -- or remove on my behalf -- the above flag. Although the article could stand a few improvements -- plus perhaps a couple more refs -- it no longer warrants its earlier "stub" designation either. Of course, I can see how it might perhaps be integrated into the main bodybuilding entry, though that is pretty long already. Or perhaps that "main" article could include mention of vascularity with a link to this original stand-alone article attempt.

--Erasistratus1 (talk) 09:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

RfC on the use of flag icons for sportspeople

An RfC discussion about the MOS:FLAG restriction on the use of flag icons for sportspeople has been opened at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. We invite all interested participants to provide their opinion here. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:35, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

robo-mentality re deletions on Corney article.

See User_talk:GorgeCustersSabre#see_Talk:Ed_Corney where I took it to the perpetrator....all articles need work...I'm just getting tired in all areas of seeing people deleting and AfD'ing and CfD'ing and word-gaming without actually working to improve articles. Very tired. It seems like that's all the majority of new-era Wikipedia editors do these days; I pick up pieces in their wake all the time to the point I don't get writing articles myself, which I wish I had time to do if not for all the garbage that gets in the way. Just venting, but as far as I know that editor didn't even know anything about Corney, or about bodybuilding or its history, just deleted some stuff and moved on to "patrol" another article. In WP:Bodybuilding we all know sources are hard to come by that satisfy the stringes of WP:RS, as I said on Talk:Ed Corney. Anyways......I'm done ranting now, just p'd and tired of this cr*p.Skookum1 (talk) 08:00, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

See more on that same section in the wake of further activity by the template-tosser/deletionist. That article, like so many, needs work and research, not wanton deletions by an interested patroller who doesn't even try to improve the article; also note my comments in the previous section to the linked one.Skookum1 (talk) 04:00, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

ratings for importance

I just added and "importance=top" switch on Bill Pearl, and will do so on other great names as time permits; I note nothing displays on the talkpage template either about class=start or importance=x and don't know how to add that to it.....and we should have a listing of top/high/mid/low importance articles.......this prompted by the savaging of the Ed Corney article's content by a non-bodybuilding drive-by deletionist, and the ongoing issue of third-party references to be found for many like him....the content on that page was often straight from his own website, though some was quoting books about him; not that we're a busy group but just noting this for anyone who spends time working on WP:BB'ing articles; non-bodybuilding fans often edit these articles, sometimes with spurious/POV comments like t he "bullshit" one that an editor said when deleting a picture of Kevin O'Toole (bodybuilder) as if the picture was a morph, or maybe because of the usual spite against bodybuilding from people disrespecting the sport and its athletes/stars. I'll add few more "top" importance ones today - Schwarzenegger, Park, Grimek, Strydom, Haney, Yates and so on....if someone can do the honours on the template and maybe start a section about this, maybe auto-generated, for the project page, I think that would be a good thing.Skookum1 (talk) 04:06, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

blacklisting of bodybuilding.com - ??

I just made a request for removal at the blacklist reporting page; this affects the use of such sites for biographies, contest results and so on. The rationale that you will see on Talk:Geir Borgan Paulsen, where I first saw this blacklisting the rationale seems to be that it has "six pack abs" and "training secrets" ..... I can't remember so-and-so who inundates all of webspace with his ads, but those phrases are so common in bodybuilding media it's absurd to block based on those words alone. Maybe someone else might add to my comments on that reporting page. I had a glance at the log page but am not gonna spend half my day looking for a log/rationale it took some bot-headed editor 5 minutes to add; some better notification process is needed to specify where on the log such things happen. It's stuff like this that takes away from constructive time on wikipedia; instead we are faced with massive "reconstructive time" issues.Skookum1 (talk) 18:20, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Strongman/strength athlete jumble

Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Sports#Strongman.2FStrength_sports.2FStrength_athlete.2FStrength_athletics....I know it's quiet around here but more eyes needed on this little tanghle of articles/categories.Skookum1 (talk) 05:40, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

B Patterson et al.

See Talk:Bruce_Patterson. And noting other cases where an athlete is highly notable as such but also is notable in "another area" it makes me wonder who else is/isn't covered. Bruce's bodybuilding career has many, um, sides. Jeremy Son (Mark Dalton]) I know is in here, not sure where Zeb Atlas], Bob Birdsong, Bob Chicherillo, Chris Duffy and others may fall in/out...never mind those like Mark Wolffe (sp?) who are mega-famous in porn and who had bbing competitive careers berforehand. Because of the overlap with porn and after-porn careers and re privacy issues I'm hesitant to create//work on such articles.....Bruce is a major figure in the history of Canadian bodybuilding...but then again, so are many others not yet covered here.....and establishing notability and RS is already problematicSkookum1 (talk) 08:05, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

North Americans page

I just came across North American Bodybuilding Championships while looking for cites for Kevin O'Toole (bodybuilder), which at least needs a cite for his '96 North Americans win per notability......but all that's on that page is the women's titles...same, it seems, on getbig.com which is the cite there..... anyone know where NAm listings can be found? O'Toole's notable per this project's parameters; convicning others of that is only going to be found with reliable sources, even if we have to bend the normal rules around here by using commercial sites, since normal "mainstream" media generally ignores bodybuilding, other than local media which is also discounted in Wikipedia, often enough.Skookum1 (talk) 07:50, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!

Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

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Harej (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

valuable guideline for citing athlete websites and forums/blogs re bb'ing and strength articles.

Not a few bb'ing articles have had db's and other challenges to the common lack of normal Reliable Sources expectations. In many many cases all there is in the way of citation is the athlete's website, or material from what are necessarily commercial blogs and forums (due to the nature of bb culture/society and economics as well as information-sharing); but there are rational exceptions that mandate both of those very-available resources.

• RS:Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves

• • Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:
    • the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;
    • it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities);
    • it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
    • there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
    • the article is not based primarily on such sources.

• • These requirements also apply to pages from social networking websites such as Twitter, Tumblr, and Facebook.

I'm not sure how many athlete profiles I had had tagged on my watchlist, I didn't have them all (those within the WikiProject). Makes me wonder a bit how many are gone when I wasn't looking, that might not have been validly deleted, given this guideline, e.g. by db when I'm away for a few days...or months...most name athletes' pages seem still there, of a certain era maybe. I haven't looked to see how many new-era men's bb'ing articles there are; the contest results pages have always had citation problems, though in that case bodybuilding.com was tolerated in the same breath as if musclemag.com or flex.com article or results list. The mainstream media, which most out there think of RS as being, just don't cover the sport like they do other sports; and even with those listings available historical results and different organizations than NPC/IFBB et al aren't well-covered. The Anglo-American bias is built into the notability guidelines in MMA and other sports; it may be here too, I don't remember.

Anyways...so there's no need to relegate e.g. John Grimek's personal pages - or blog discussions about him (or fan sites, for that matter, either) - to External links; they can be used as cites directly.

Mostly it's men's pages that lack good citations; and I've venture that many pages that do have lots of citations might not meet the notability guidelines, and these are mostly modern-era female competitors. Now that I know this guideline is there to warrant it there's various pages I know of that need either better citation and some I know need updating, and will raise this guideline when somebody challenges a bodybuilding.com or elitefitness.com or testosterone.net article; whether this would work on pharmacological or diet/nutrition pages or not I can't say but seems unlikely. All possible to use on Ergogenic use of anabolic steroids, I'd say, given the context of that title (it had been "Recreational use of anabolic steroids]], but I doubt it would receive a friendly reception at Doping in sport, whose very title is IMO completely POV and pejorative in tone.

The one thing that seemed to prevent contributions here was the apparent restriction on personal pages as cites and also commercial and/or blog or forum sites and "internet resources" of various kinds. Celeb and pop music bios use fanpage citations all the time, for example.

I'm not sure who's still active around here, i.e. got this page watchlisted and may be working on articles out there; hopefully this is useful when a challenge is made to a page on your lists, or on any work on related articles, such as on Anabolic steroids and its subpage just named....'ergogenic' was a wiki-coinage/compromise because not all non-legally-medical usages is more than "recreational"...ergo- refers to energy only, not to all the other things they're used for and why.

But mostly it's good to know that this passage of the RS guideline means the cites we often see challenged, or prompting deletion attempts, are more than OK to use, so long as there is no reasonable thing to doubt their veracity. This is all the more important on BLP articles, where personal cites should be obviously OK, though challenged by guideline-nitpickers as not valid third-party sources; but those who cite that guideline or others don't seem to have read the rest of RS; a too-common problem with those hasty to delete something rather than research it, or genuinely study the guidelines.

BB'ing is an athlete-driven and fan-driven sport, and it's natural that RS about it would come from athlete, sport and fan sites of all kinds; not just from published magazine or enough media bios (three) to qualify as notable under the usual terms of reference; but bodybuilding media includes webspace in a big way; the sport's own blogs and forums and homepages have always been valid for use as citations; and those who object to them being used to that can be referred to this guideline....Skookum1 (talk) 12:50, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Is Roma Pawelek notable?

Is Roma Pawelek a notable female bodybuilder[4]? Dwanyewest (talk) 04:48, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

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RFC on sports notability

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Ed Corney

Ed Corney has died, I've tried to improve the article with more RS but there are still unreferenced sentences. There are obituaries online but I don't think they are RS, and I've yet to find a single obituary in a major newspaper. Please ping me if you can see this (as this WP is apparently inactive) and you want to help. Thanks!Zigzig20s (talk) 16:01, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm still here. I'll try to find something.★Trekker (talk) 17:06, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

★Trekker: I think it may be too late for an RD, but there is no deadline for editing/improving it.Zigzig20s (talk) 20:25, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Earle Liederman

Is anyone able to find out when Earle Liederman died please? I'd like to create his article and ideally cite his obituaries. Please ping me when you reply. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

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Discord

Hey all, I hope everyone is safe and healthy. My name is HickoryOughtShirt?4 and I'm a member of WikiProject Ice Hockey. I was wondering if there was any interest in starting a WikiProject Sports channel on Discord? There's quite a few of us who are interested in sports, and I think it would be a good idea to help the WikiProject recruit more members. You guys can join us through here.HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 00:13, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Katie Corio

I am not sure if anyone's monitoring this talk page, but if they are, can someone take a look at Draft:Katie Corio and let me know if they think they're notable? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 20:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Jo Lindner

I am currently trying to get an article to release about him. Is anyone active here anymore? I would offer my help for other bodybuilding related articles, too... MarvDj (talk) 20:37, 3 December 2023 (UTC)