Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music/Archive 11

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Bots on the loose/'rewriting' references

Several bots are being used to automatically rewrite references with sometimes unpredictable results. I and some other editors have already complained about Polbot, see here, but there seem to be others (e.g. DumZiBoT). It seems approval has been given prematurely to bot operations which should really have been tested first. Problems can be reported to the Bot owners' noticeboard. --Kleinzach 02:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

200 year anniversary of the premier of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony

I thought this project might be interested in trying to get Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven) up to FA status by Dec. 22, 2008 for the 200 year anniversary of the premier of the work. It was already once a FA and is currently a A-class article so it may not take too much work to get it up to FA shape. Just a thought. Remember (talk) 10:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't look to me like it ever achieved FA status. I notice that there are many changes (edits, at least) to the article since the last failed FA try. How many of the criticisms leveled against the article in that review have been addressed, and how many still need attention? (This line of discussion is probably best continued on the article talk page.) Magicpiano (talk) 19:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Good points. I was incorrect that it has been featured before (just proposed twice). I don't know how many of the problems have been addressed and I agree that discussing improving the page should be done on that talk page, but whether this WikiProject decides to improve this article should be done here. Remember (talk) 14:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

New FP

Manuscript notes for Beethoven Piano Sonata No. 28

Hi, just dropping by to mention there's a newly featured picture that relates to your project. Best regards, Durova^Charge! 09:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Featured sounds

The following are featured sounds (including a recording of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 28, mentioned above):

Ludwig van Beethoven – Moonlight Sonata

Ludwig van Beethoven: Piano Sonata No. 14 in C sharp minor Op. 27 No. 2 – Moonlight

Antonio Vivaldi – The Four Seasons

Antonio Vivaldi: The Four Seasons (Le quattro stagioni). Performed by the Wichita State University Chamber Players; violin, John Harrison

Concerto No. 1 in E major, Op. 8, RV 269, "La primavera" (Spring)

Concerto No. 2 in G minor, Op. 8, RV 315, "L'estate" (Summer)

Concerto No. 3 in F major, Op. 8, RV 293, "L'autunno" (Autumn)

Concerto No. 4 in F minor, Op. 8, RV 297, "L'inverno" (Winter)

Franz Schubert – Impromptu in B flat

Franz Schubert's Impromptu in B flat (D. 935/3; Op. 142 No. 3)

A combined version is also available:

Ludwig van Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 28

Ludwig van Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 28 in A major, Op. 101. Performed by Daniel Veesey from Musopen.com.

See also: Beethoven's original sketch of the fourth movement.

Feel free to nominate more at WP:FSC! Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 20:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Sound clips/Fulda Symphonic Orchestra recordings etc.

Sound clips have recently being added to a number of music articles. This is an example that has been added to the Tristan und Isolde article:

Some of these are being recommended as Featured Sounds. (Criteria for featured sounds are explained here.) Here are some candidates:

• Gounod 'Petite_Symphony'
• Mendelssohn 3
• Pasculli 'Gran Concerto'
• Don Giovanni

So far few specialized music editors have been involved in the process, but there have been concerns about the quality of the clips etc.

A number of recordings have come from the Fulda Symphonic Orchestra - for example the Mendelssohn, Don Giovanni, or Tristan above. This is an amateur orchestra that has released public domain recordings (in varying sound quality) on the internet, which have been copied over onto WP. --Kleinzach 08:28, 10 September 2008 (UTC) P.S. After writing the above I find some more (Non-Fulda) examples have already been posted above by Shoemaker's Holiday.

Actually, I believe most of those, including the Tristan, have been in articles for years.

As far as I can tell from things you've said elsewhere, your opinion seems to be that if something is not a historically-significant recording, or performed by a major professional orchestra, then there is no point including it on Wikipedia.

Certainly, low-quality amateur recordings need to be rejected. For instance, neither the Fulda or the Skidmore recordings found at Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven) could ever be a featured sound. The Fulda takes the first movement far too fast, and the Skidmore has no balance between the instruments whatsoever.

However, being professionally recorded and released by a major record company is no protection against the recording having issues. Professional recordings can suck too. I have a copy of Les Troyens - by Colin Davis, if I'm not mistaken - where significant dramatic impact is simply thrown away by... um... failure to actually do what the script calls for, like leaving out Cassandra's last few (spoken) lines before her death, basically destroying the scene by leaving dramatic musical setups uncompleted, &c.

Likewise, the recent professional recording of The Contrabandista has perfect diction, excellent instrument fidelity, and no emotion or humour whatsoever. The singers may as well have been singing their grocery list, because not one of them pays any attention to the words actually being sung.

This is a bit round about, but my point is: We could sit here and hope that some professional recording drops into our lap, or we can use what is actually available to Wikipedia, and then try to progressively ratchet up standards, building up prestige and using front page views and other such things to give professional orchestras incentive to release some of their recordings into free use.

Or we can look at what we can't have, and, with copyright being as it is, will never get hold of in our lifetimes, decide that, because we can't have, say, Carlos Kleiber's recording of Der Freischutz, that we should never have any recording of Der Freischutz.

In some cases, I get the impression that you're opposing use of a recording not because you dislike the quality, but because it's not a specific, copyrighted performance that you want. If that's true, I'm not sure you're being pragmatic enough for Wikipedia. In the end, it's far better to hear a pretty good recording of a work than to not hear it at all. Obviously, there's a point where the quality of a recording becomes an issue, and where the recording is so bad that it would put people off the work unjustly, but I don't think any of the fiver recordings you cite are anywhere near that territory, and certainly not the studio recording of Pasculli, or the live recording of Gounod by professionals included in that list.

Actually, I think the Fulda Symphony Orchestra is probably the best orchestra (as opposed to wind quintet or other small ensembles) we have in any quantity. Admittedly, competition is not great on that front. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 09:52, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a comprehensive misrepresentation of my views but I'm not interested in arguing about it. I'd like to see the knowledgeable music editors here become involved in the selection of audio clips both on articles and on Featured Sounds. That's all. --Kleinzach 10:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I got your views wrong, but they were how things appeared from things you've said, e.g. saying that only hoistorically significant recordings should appear on the opera portal, etc. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 10:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Scribimus indocti doctique. Anyway, I've had my 2 cents worth on Featured Sounds. Now let's ask for some other opinions. --Kleinzach 10:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Why are my posts here being deleted? I posted this:

No, no, no! Please read again what I wrote! I didn't say the Pasculli was from Fulda. I gave it and the Gounod as examples of candidate clips. --Kleinzach 10:07, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Now it's gone! What's going on? --Kleinzach 11:07, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I deleted that section of my post because I thought it was unfair to you, leaving that comment orphaned. I didn't think you'd mind. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

You should never delete other people's messages. If you decide to withdraw what you have written, then use strikeout. Essentially you shouldn't edit what you have written after it's been replied to, unless it's simply a matter of a typo. What you've done is to interfere with a reasoned discussion.--Kleinzach 23:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry that I deleted your statement objecting to my commebnt when deleting the comment you disliked. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 20:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - I have already weighed in on a few of the FSC nominations and reiterate my point there: the sound quality is poor. The performance standards are understandably fairly low, but given our copyleft requirements, we obviously cannot be too picky. But we should aim for a more decent recording than this offers. Eusebeus (talk) 11:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I hope some other editors will also take an interest in the recordings - despite the confused state of this discussion here. --Kleinzach 23:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

That's what you get when you quote Horace ;) Eusebeus (talk) 23:17, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Classical music

Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 23:11, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

The articles selected are: Classical music, Baroque, Elton John and Orchestra. This compares with 72 articles for the Opera Project which is only half the size of this project. Criticisms of the selection have been raised at WP:WPO. --Kleinzach 00:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The bot-generated list is likely inaccurate. The CSV file containing the full list of articles includes things not listed in the link provided by the bot that are bannered with this project, like Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven) and Symphony No. 9 (Beethoven) (to name two that are pretty easy to search for). I'll raise this on the 0.7 talk page. Never mind, I read some things wrong. The Template:WP1.0 data indicates assessment but not selection. See also the list of assessed articles. It appears that they calculated an "Importance Score" based on hit counts, page links, and interwiki links, and then gave articles with higher ratings (a Start-class article bumped 150, B-class 300, FA-class 500). Articles with an overall score over 1300 appear to have been selected automatically. This project has about 80 articles whose "Importance Score" is over 1000. Considering the project membership's distate for assessment, it seems unsurprising that not many articles were selected, as a significant part of the score is the assessment level. A fair number of the articles scoring 1000+ are on subjects that are arguably worthy of inclusion. Magicpiano (talk) 13:05, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I went through the the list of assessed articles, and looked at most of the unselected articles scoring over 1000. Based on this cursory examination, it seems to me that the following articles could be nominated for inclusion. Some might need work to be accepted -- I assume the nomination process would identify issues.

• Sonata
• Sonata form
• Musicology
• A Midsummer Night's Dream
• Sylvia (ballet) *FA
• Chamber music
• Violin Concerto (Mendelssohn) *GA
• Carnegie Hall
• Herbert von Karajan
• Concerto
• Mstislav Rostropovich
• Juilliard School
• Motet
• Suite
• String quartet
• The Nutcracker
• James Levine
• Messiah (Handel)
• Hurdy gurdy *GA
• Vladimir Horowitz
• Symphonic poem
• Berlin Philharmonic
• Leopold Stokowski

I thought the following articles are not ready for nomination, but might merit nomination based on the subject matter, if their quality (or unresolved issues) can be raised.

• Cantata
• Symphony
• Overture
• Romantic music
• Classical period (music)
• Ballet (music)

Any thoughts? Magicpiano (talk) 21:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I've decided not to make nominations. Like other editors (see here), I think the procedure is flawed and the selection bad. Making a few nominations - which have to be individually explained - would be an effort and I don't think it would really improve the overall result much anyway. Of course, if you want to go ahead and spend your time on it, that's up to you. --Kleinzach 23:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Interesting perspective there. Thanks for the pointer, I wasn't following that discussion. Magicpiano (talk) 01:08, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Quick question: what does Elton John have to do with Classical Music? Isn't he in the pop genre, or something-or-other? —La Pianista ^{(T•C•S•R)} 03:50, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Elton John was wrongly categorized as a classical musician in the course of a bot run. I think this was because he's in Category:Alumni of the Royal Academy of Music. --Kleinzach 07:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Portal:Classical music

I have changed the layout and format. The former colors are too dull, so I changed it to be more "striking". I am in a process of changing the contents and create archived pages like what I do every month for Portal:Opera (the contents are updated every month). Below are contents to be updated, feel free to suggest for contents (for the month of October). I will update Portal:Opera first. If we have volunteer to manage this portal, it is even better, so I can concentrate at Portal:Opera only. I also added a new section "Project introduction", copied the introduction from CM project mainpage. I need someone to change the intro, because it doesnt really sounds professional to me. Below are the contents to be changed, please avoid clash contents with Portal:Opera.

• Selected article (for October 2008)- Brandenburg concertos

(Avoid choosing "opera articles" like Tosca, Tenor etc. Ideal article for this project would be like Brandenburg concertos, Chamber music, Sonata, Juilliard School, Symphonic poem and many more)

• Selected picture (for October 2008)- Image:Stradshp.jpg

(Avoid choosing "opera houses" or "opera scenes". Ideal photos would be like music instruments etc.)

• Selected biography (for October 2008)- Ludwig van Beethoven (suitable for CM portal, not for Opera portal because he only writes 1 opera)

(Avoid choosing opera singers, or composers who write many operas, including music conductors who often conducting orchestra for opera. There are many conductors/composers/musicians who are not involve in opera or only write/conduct few operas. Ideal biography would be Frédéric Chopin, Mstislav Rostropovich, Mstislav Rostropovich and many more)

• News - to be updated from time to time but also please avoid "opera" related news. I have removed Plácido Domingo news and will create "Archived" page when we have long list of news.

Refer my suggestion articles, feel free to suggest others. Thanks - Jay (talk) 03:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to Jay for refurbishing this. Looks great! I like the new yellow and blue borders. I don't know if we will be able to find someone to take this over, but on the other hand I don't think it needs to be changed every month. Every two or three months would be OK. I'll put a note on Composers which doesn't have it's own portal. Best. --Kleinzach 08:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

User:La Pianista has volunteer to maintain the portal. I will also help from time to time - Jay (talk) 07:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

That's great. Will it change monthly? --Kleinzach 08:12, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I will change every 2 months (Portal:Opera too) but if User:La Pianista wants to it monthly, that is good too. - Jay (talk) 09:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I will do my best to keep up a monthly schedule. If it is feasible, I would recommend we add a section listing our featured articles as well - or at least, once we get enough of them. —La Pianista ^{(T•C•S•R)} 19:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. Perhaps you would like to post messages here from time to time to get suggestions, feedback and let people know that the portal exists? --Kleinzach 10:27, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. In fact, I have started a new discussion below regarding a possible ad (under my travel account). --La Sockista (talk) 03:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I've started a five-month schedule for upcoming selected articles, but I'm having trouble filling in the blanks. Any comments can be posted at User:La Pianista/sandbox directly beneath the table. Any collaboration is greatly appreciated! :) —La Pianista ^{(T•C•S•R)} 21:55, 7 October 2008 (UTC)