Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics/Cleanup/Archive/Article Improvement Drive

Comics Project Improvement Drive

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The proposition (as discussed here) is that we target articles to raise them up a level or two. We can pick three or four from each class, post them in the section on the notice board (which we haven't started yet) and focus the attention of the project on them through a specific section on the article's talk page.

This isn't just about bagging more GAs for the project but an overall improvement of articles on all levels. Initially I suspect we will churn through the sub-GAs as there must be a lot that won't take much to raise them up and leave them set up for future improvement. Equally, we can hammer through stubs quite easily, the trick bit will be the middle ground and we'd probably need to aim to improve them and leave suggestions which editors can continue working on but we'll switch them out of the list for the time being (although if it was stalling and looking like it needed a boost it can be renominated).

Currently under focus (as part of a test run):

• Nocturne (comics) - B but just shy of GA
• Crisis on Infinite Earths - B and in need of work

Possible candidates:

• 300 (comics) - currently a start but with the film out if we can't bump it a few levels now we never will

• Hellblazer - currently a start and with the 20th anniversary next year now would be a good time to really get it moving

• 52 (comic book) - a B but as it is just finished and the trades are coming out now is the time to take things up a notch

• The Sandman (Vertigo) - B and it should be a GA

• Kingdom Come (comic book) - start and a GA nominee - definitely one to start with

• Batman: The Dark Knight Returns - B and with some good references and some work it can be taken up a couple of notches

• Wonder Woman - B but she is one of the big names in comics

• Fantastic Four - B and in need of some work - a good candidate

• Grant Morrison - B

So I'd suggest:

• 300 (comics) - start
• Hellblazer - start
• Kingdom Come (comic book) - start and GA nominee
• 52 (comic book) - B
• Fantastic Four - B
• Batman: The Dark Knight Returns - B

I'd also like to rummage together some stubs and we should be able to power through them.

So has anyone got any nominations, ideas, thoughts, input? (Emperor 00:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC))

User:Erik has a long-term plan to turn Kingdom Come into an FA-class article; he's been gathering sources for a while. Since he's devoted to that I don't think as a group we need to worry about that one, although if you want to pitch in you should talk to him and coordinate something. 52 has a lot of comic press references but few if any academic analyses; frankly it's too soon and hasn't had the mainstream impact something like Watchmen or The Adventures of Tintin (both FAs) have had. There's been a lot written about The Dark Knight Returns. I know; I've found a lot while doing work on Batman. I honestly believe if I and a number of editors really committed to it, this could become an excellent FA in a month or less. There's a surprising amount of academic analysis of Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum, as well. I have the reprint of the first issue of Sandman published last year that has interviews and behind-the-scenes info; I would assume the Absolute collection would have more. I've also seen that book The Sandman Companion around. There's no lack of sources on Wonder Woman. Quite the opposite; in fact, the main problem could very well be trying to be comprehensve (and tracking down every notable reference over 66 years dealing with the character) while weighing which sources are of merit. WesleyDodds 05:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

OK I've dropped Erik a note. I was also looking at the list and thinking it needed more Marvel entries, as well as things other than the big two

• Venom (Eddie Brock) - start but was a GA nominee

• Hellboy - unrated but one has been requested so we'll see how the land lies there (I also did the same for New Frontier)

• Mike Mignola - start and needs work (I did run through it a bit ago and it is looking more solid but there are places the fat can be trimmed and areas that need bulking up).

Anyway I'll keep on digging. (Emperor 01:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC))

Also: the archives at time.com and nytimes.com are your friends. If you are interested at all in referencing comics articles, these should be your first stops. WesleyDodds 05:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Another suggestion: DC: The New Frontier. There's a New York Times reviews, a thorough Comics Journal interview with Darwyn Cooke, and the bonus material in the Absolute edition we can draw from. WesleyDodds 06:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Starting some work on The Sandman (Vertigo) because I was in the mood. WesleyDodds 10:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Emperor, before you start looking through stub-class articles (which is a good idea, since some have undoubtedly been improved to higher classes since their original assessment or could easily be moved in that direction), you might want to flip through the Category:Unassessed Comics articles [1] list for things that stand out as topics that may be worthy of working on. There are over 4000 comics articles there, so undoubtedly there are some unnoticed diamonds in the rough. BOZ 14:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, I notice that Category:A-Class Comics articles [2] is a very small category. Are you looking to get B-class articles up to A, or right to GA's? BOZ 14:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Unassessed articles are tricky as it is difficult to know what you are working to. The best bet might be to get them assessed first and then we can work plot out a plan for them.

On how far we take it? That depends on the general enthusiasm of the editors and the article at hand. It could be that we can get in and hammer a stub up to GA but it is unlikely - what I'd be looking at is get it to a B (or close) and leave it with ideas and suggestions that can help editors to continue to build on it (the aim isn't just to bag as many GAs as possible but to try and bring up worthy articles to a better quality across the board). Often these things depend on a dedicated editor or two taking an article in hand and driving it to top article status and it might be this is where things could fit in with the idea of a contest (mentioned in the same section): We can get in an start the ball rolling and if one editor wants to go point on the improvement drive they could work on integrating the ideas and sources provided. Or a number of editors can get cracking on it.

A-class articles are interesting and worth targeting but it is an odd class as often if you find a few people sufficiently interested and motivated to take an entry from start or B to GA (or fail and not get reassessed). It'd be good to boost things up to an A and use that as a kind of base camp to push on for GA but it might be if people have the bit between their teeth that they can drive on to GA status. I suspect in the initial round if we are looking for near GAs to boost then we could find some good ones there but there are also GA nominees and failed/former GAs in the B class (I'll nose through the As now). (Emperor 01:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC))

Looking at those As ones that would seem to make sense for the project (to round out the big titles) are:

• Avengers (comics)
• Exiles (Marvel Comics)
• Iron Man

I suppose part of this should be making that the attention of the project can be focused on making sure the important articles are as good as they could be - the enthusiasm of an editor can often help drive something to GA while in some places you get too many cooks spoiling the broth so we'd want to try and even this out. (Emperor 01:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC))

Another one for the future is V for Vendetta it has been nominated for GA but failed so it could be that it just needs some more eyes on it to help boost it up. (Emperor 13:51, 15 October 2007 (UTC))

We also need to get Comics to GA - it is a vital article and one of the core 1,000 articles, as well as being added (or being considered for addition) on various offline versions. (Emperor 02:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC))

I originally intended to improve Kingdom Come (comic book) some time ago, but when I sought to use the Featured Article Watchmen to guide me, I found the latter article to be in incredibly poor shape. I will likely focus on improving Watchmen and place it in the FAR process. For Kingdom Come, before I switched to Watchmen, I put together some resources, which can be found here. Feel free to use them. You can also see my resources for Watchmen here -- at that subpage, you can see the draft in which I've highlighted bad content, and I am attempting a full revision to revisit all the sources. I'll be collaborating with WesleyDodds for Watchmen, but I don't have any plans to touch Kingdom Come until Watchmen can be improved into a true Featured Article. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 02:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks that looks very useful - that certainly seems to make Kingdom Come a dead cert for something in the first sweep through. (Emperor 04:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC))

Hopefully, I've got something here that will help give some focus on where to start if I think I'm following where you're going. I cross-referenced B-Class Comics articles [3] (probably the smallest among the list between Start, Stub, and Unassessed) with High-importance Comics articles [4]. It seems to me that would be one way to generate more GAs and possibly even FAs. Then, you could move on to searching through the far longer lists of Start, Stub, and Unassessed for articles to improve. It may seem like a long list, but it's not so long that people can't look at it and pick out ones that they'd be interested in working on:

2000 AD (comic) - 9 Chickweed Lane - Abby Holland (comics) - Academy of Comic Book Arts - Action Comics 1 - Akira (manga) - Alex Toth - André Franquin - Andy Capp - Aquaman - Archie Andrews (comics) - Arkham Asylum - Association of Comics Magazine Publishers - Asterix - Atom (Ray Palmer) - Batgirl - Batman (1989 film) - Batman (Earth-Two) - Batman: The Animated Series - Beast (comics) - Betty Cooper - Bill DuBay (comics) - Bill Watterson - Bizarro - Blade (comics) - Bob Kane - Bone (comics) - Bucky - Buffy comics - Burglar (comics) - Cable (comics) - Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) - Captain America's shield - Captain Marvel (Marvel Comics) - Captain Universe - Casper the Friendly Ghost - Catwoman - Cerebro - Citizen V - Clark Kent - Clayface - Colossus (comics) - Comic-Con International - Crisis on Infinite Earths - Cyclops (comics) - DC Universe - Daily Bugle - Daily Planet - Daredevil (Marvel Comics) - Darkseid - Dave Sim - Dennis O'Neil - Dick Grayson - Dick Tracy - Doctor Doom - Doctor Octopus - Doctor Strange - Doom Patrol - Eagle (comic) - Earth X - Ed Brubaker - Editorial cartoon - Elfquest - Fathom (comics) - Fictional history of Spider-Man - Flash (Jay Garrick) - Flash Thompson - Foggy Nelson - FoxTrot - Franco-Belgian comics - Frank Cho - Frank Miller (comics) - Franklin Richards - From Hell - Gardner Fox - Garry Trudeau - Gaston Lagaffe - Ghost Rider (comics) - Gladstone Publishing - Green Lantern - Green Lantern Corps - Harry Osborn - Harvey Pekar - Hellfire Club (comics) - Henry Pym - Hergé - History of Superman - History of the British comic - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes) - Howard the Duck - Hugo Pratt - Hulk (comics) - Illuminati (Marvel Comics) - Infinite Crisis - Invisible Woman - Iron Man's armor - Jason Todd - Jean Grey - Jerry Siegel - Jijé - Jim Shooter - Jim Steranko - Jimmy Olsen - Joe Shuster - John Buscema - John Constantine - John Romita, Jr. - Joker (comics) - Jonah Hex - Judge Dredd - Kang the Conqueror - King Features Syndicate - Kryptonite - Legion of Super-Heroes - Liberty Meadows - List of Transformers comic book series - Little Lulu - Lois Lane - Love and Rockets (comics) - Lucky Luke - Magneto (comics) - Malcolm Wheeler-Nicholson - Mar-Vell - Marvel Universe - Maus - Mr. Freeze - Ms. Marvel - Multiverse (Marvel Comics) - Namor - Neil Gaiman - Nick Fury - Nitro (comics) - Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe - Onslaught (comics) - Penguin (comics) - Perry White - Punisher - Red Hood - Registration acts (comics) - Robin (comics) - Roy Thomas - Sabretooth (comics) - Scrooge McDuck - Showcase Presents - Snoopy - Spider-Man's powers and equipment - Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew) - Steve Ditko - Superhero - Swamp Thing - The Death of Superman - The Sandman (Vertigo) - The Spirit - Thor (Marvel Comics) - Todd McFarlane - Two-Face - Ultimate Marvel - Uncle Ben - Wally West - Wally Wood - Walt Disney's Comics and Stories - Will Magnus - William Hogarth - Winnie Winkle - Winsor McCay - Wizard (magazine) - Wizard Entertainment - X-23 - X-Men: Deadly Genesis - X-Men: The 198 - Young Avengers - Youngblood (comics) - Zap Comix

BOZ 03:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Hell's teeth!! ;)

I would ultimately like to get 2000 AD (comic) on here and really push things but it has had all of its images removed which has been a set back, but then again that might mean it is an idea time to do it. I'd like to get a round of this done first and see how the land lies - I'm getting the book on 2000 AD for Xmas and will be better placed to flesh things out then. Ditto Judge Dredd.

Apart from ones we've flagged already (like Sandman and Crisis on Infinite Earths) the one that jumps out at me is From Hell - the notes at the end of the trade should prove useful and I'm sure one or more of the Alan Moore papers I dug up touch on this (they are on the other computer).

So I'd revise that list (bearing in mind comments that it might be too soon for 52) to:

• 300 (comics) - start
• Hellblazer - start
• Kingdom Come (comic book) - start and GA nominee
• From Hell - B
• Fantastic Four - B
• Batman: The Dark Knight Returns - B

We don't want to bite too much off so could bump some until some of these have been done - thoughts? (Emperor 04:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC))

My first thought when committing myself to working on any article in-depth is "What references are available?" because that's what largely determines what is a good, useful encyclopedic article. Of those six listed, The Dark Knight Returns is the clear winner. I've found sources on its publication, creation, analysis, and to some extent sales. 300 and Fantastic Four are the next contenders.

Also, I'd like to say that a lot of, if not all, articles labeled A-class in this project are nowhere near A-class material. Of course passing GAC is not needed to label an article A-class, but some of these are barely B-class and none are near featured quality. For an example of what an A-class article should look like, here's Nine Inch Nails. WesleyDodds 05:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The references are indeed important and I think the initial steps should be identifying the major issues with article and collecting together references. We could add the references straight into the article but it might be best if we start a sub-section where people can add things they find and then someone can integrate them into the article later.

I have found the From Hell papers I was thinking of and this is a useful for Hellblazer/Swamp Thing/Sandman. Also ImageTexT could prove useful and this and this on Moore should prove useful for an analysis of From Hell. So I feel confident that we can find enough material to give all of those listed a boost in quality (and set some up for the drive to GA). As we are discussing this I'm jotting down notes but am increasingly eager to get the ball rolling. (Emperor 14:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC))

Whoops! What I meant to do last night was to cross-reference the B-class articles with the Top-importance Comics articles [5] - that's a much smaller list to work with, and probably a higher priority than most of the ones I listed above. Some of these have been mentioned already, but I'm leaving my list as it is.  ;) OK, there's more than enough to think about for now, so I'll leave it at this:

Action Comics - All-American Publications - Alternative comics - American comic book - Archie Comics - Bill Everett - Buck Rogers (science fiction) - Captain America - Carl Barks - Cerebus the Aardvark - Comic book - Comic strip - Comics - Comics Code Authority - Creepy - DC Comics - Dilbert - Doonesbury - EC Comics - Fantastic Four - Flash (Barry Allen) - Funnies Inc. - Jack Kirby - Jean Giraud - Justice League - Little Nemo - Little Orphan Annie - Mad (magazine) - Manga - Marvel Comics - Marvel Mystery Comics - Osamu Tezuka - Peanuts - Popeye - Robert Crumb - Seduction of the Innocent - Spider-Man - Stan Lee - Will Eisner - Wolverine (comics) - Wonder Woman - X-Men

BOZ 14:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Phew that is a lot easier to cope with and I think most people would expect those entries to be as good as we can make them. Manga is currently in the grip of a complete overhaul so we'll wait and see how that goes and then see if it needs any additional help to give it the last boost (I have pitched in but they have everything in hand and such a good grasp of the subject my additions are only minor). I did think of Stan Lee before going to bed last night (something you'd not often admit to in a public forum but it is probably OK if it in connection with this) and Jack Kirby is also a big one. Also EC, DC and Marvel make sense and then the top flight superheroes and teams.

Of course, this shouldn't just be about boosting Bs to GAs (I note Sandman has gone down to a start and is crying out for this kind of thing) but we should certainly scatter in some of those as we go along. (Emperor 15:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC))

We shouldn't worry too much about the current ratings. I had to bump The Sandman down to Start class because I had to take out a huge portion of the article which was unreferenced analysis. But was remains is essential and I've been working on sources. WesleyDodds 22:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes somewhere between stub and GA the ratings can be awfully variable. The real pity about Sandman is that it seems little more than a holding page for links to other articles when there has been a lot of analysis of the series. Anyway that is a definite for getting some attention in the near future.

Sometimes getting one's hands on sources is going to be tricky - I can access most journals that have an electronic form but does anyone here get the International Journal of Comic Art? I'd be interested in knowing if there is more in the Hellblazer paper about "Shoot" and there are others that could come in handy (e,g, "300 AND TWO: Frank Miller and Daniel Ford Interpret Herodotus's Thermopylae Myth" and "The Function of Dreams and Stories in The Sandman"). Equally if anyone has some very handy resource to hand let us know as we might fire a few questions off. (Emperor 13:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC))

Given work currently being done and what we've discussed, how's this lineup for now?

• The Sandman (Vertigo)
• Kingdom Come (comic book)
• From Hell
• Fantastic Four
• Batman: The Dark Knight Returns

Five articles with enough reference material available to make them well-rounded, and topics which many editors should be familiar enough with to contribute positively to. WesleyDodds 20:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

That seems like a pretty solid set that I feel we can do a good job of. Shall we get the ball rolling? (Emperor 13:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC))

Sure. I'll probably go to the library tomorrow, and I'll start on The Dark Knight Returns and Fantastic Four. WesleyDodds 03:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Cool - I dropped in a note in the project talk page and will get things moving tomorrow - I've jotted down a few From Hell notes so should be able to get the ball rolling there. (Emperor 03:59, 16 October 2007 (UTC))

OK I've got the ball rolling WP:CMC/ID - I've dropped notes into the relevant talk pages to get the ball rolling. I'll go through and drop in my specific thoughts later on. (Emperor 23:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC))

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.