Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 15

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Warcraft AfDs

Everyone should take a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Warcraft character articles, as the outcome will most likely set precedence for future articles regarding characters in game. Havok (T/C/c) 07:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah definitely, if this AfD passes it will get used to delete almost every CVG character article except for the extremely major ones like Link or Mario. Very important AfD. Ajaxfan 09:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

This afd targets many major characters in the warcraft universe. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 10:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

It was withdrawn by the nom, supposedly because it was "dissolving into a brawl" and would not pass, which of course had nothing to do with the fact that he self-admittedly knew absolutely nothing about Warcraft and nominated every single character article, major or minor in one massive clump. --PresN 18:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Clearly the only precedent being set is that mass AfDs don't work, which is fine by me. Nifboy 18:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

True, the only results I've ever seen come out of a mass AfD is No Consensus or a massive, complicated merge/delete that never happens, because it's too much work. (That's what happened with the 40 odd Morrowind articles put up, they were supposed to be merged into lists, but no one could agree one what lists, and a month later they're all still there.) --PresN 19:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

This seemed to be a very bad faith nomination. Sure, perhaps some of those weren't notable, but that should have gone to a merge debate, rather than deletion. How many delete voters do you think would even bother to read all 30 articles, let alone do the research to see if a single actual page was verifiable or not? Mass AfDs are almost always a bad idea, and when the nominator quite evidently didn't even bother to do adequate research for each page he was nominating, that's just embarassing. --SevereTireDamage 23:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The AfD debate has been re-opened because it is improper to withdraw a nomination after someone else recommends deletion. — TKD::Talk 03:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

According to the admin who reopened the AfD, he says it was bordering on "delete", if this is the case I don't know. I think it should be reported as a bad faith nomination, and have it strikken. If they want the articles deleted, they should nominate each one seperatly, because even after the AfD had started people started adding new characters to the list. Havok (T/C/c) 06:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The biggest problem with the articles is they have no context; for most of these characters, it's not even obvious if they show up in any of the games, or novels, or anything at all; ergo, their importance within the individual games/etc is completely unverified. Nifboy 06:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Basically because all the lore is either taken from the game itself, or the books. So it's hard to draw clear citations. We could use www.worldofwarcraft.com as a reference, but I think that is about it, as we can't use WoWWiki because of WP:RS. Ideas, suggestions? Havok (T/C/c) 09:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

So the primary work does not count as a reliable source for an article about a fictional character? Its not like we are talking about analysis or anything. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 10:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I would think primary source would be good enough. I'll start cleaning up when I get home. Havok (T/C/c) 10:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The AfD was closed as a trainwreck no consensus. MiB, the closing mod, additionally that if anyone wants to try again, that they under no circumstances nomintate more than 4 articles together at maximum. --PresN 15:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No formal English title

What's the consensus on games that do not have a formal English title? One of the Castlevania games is given in its Japanese pronunciation (Akumajou Dracula X Chi no Rondo), but not every game without a formal English title follows this format. Apple Town Story was never given a formal English title, and GameFAQs lists it as Apple Town Monotagari. On the title screen, however, it does explicity show Apple Town Story. I recently created the article Deep Dungeon: The Heretic War, which is the unofficial English translation of the title by KingMike (a fan translator). I sometimes see it listed as Deep Dungeon Madou Senki though. I was confused with the title system in an earlier article I created, Sword of Kalin - it sometimes goes by Kalin no Tsurugi. Can someone help me out here? Thanks! --Tristam 22:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:NAME states "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." Usage is a very iffy area, though; for example, Cave Story redirects to Doukutsu Monogatari. More generally speaking, it doesn't matter much so long as you set up redirects in case users search for the one you didn't use. Nifboy 03:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, Nifboy. I suppose with obscure games (such as the articles that I created and linked to), it's only a guess at which is more prevalent outside of a simple Google search (then again, unless you check every page of the search, the # of results can be deceptive). --Tristam 05:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Is it alright that we make our own English translations of game titles, if no official one exists yet? On the page for Dragon Quest Yangus, I made some edits that included the full Japanese title (it was on the page, thanks to User:YurikBot)), and a translation I made using my own knowledge of the language. I'm not so much concerned with the accuracy of my translation as much as if I should have made it in the first place. Is this okay to do? I Jethrobot 04:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it very much depends on the particular game. For example, Seiken Densetsu 3 is probably much better known by its Japanese transliteration than by its actual translation ("Legend of the Holy Sword 3"). Our usage should reflect the most common popular usage. If this cannot be determined, though, than the English translation is probably the best bet. It can always be changed later, if necessary. – Sean Daugherty (talk) 16:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Should we be retelling backstories?

Given the level of detail on certain articles (as a convenient example, the Warcraft articles above), it seems to me that there is no summary going on; in some cases, everything known about a character exists in that character's article. Because we are not attempting to recreate a universe's canonical bible, I would rather that emphasis be given to the actual narrative of the game (what the player sees and hears) rather than the much more numerous, minimal stories that the player only hears about. In part, I think this is a logical result of WP:WAF, as backstory is an almost exclusively in-universe element, with very little out-of-universe perspective.

I may pose this question elsewhere to get a broader perspective, but it seems more unique to the CVG project because some games allow the player to explore a lot of backstory. Nifboy 04:48, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think so. Backstory is just another form of plot summary, and this project isn't the place to recap every single fictional work ever in detail. All the time I see character and object and organization and event and list articles that are nothing but the setting, story, and backstory of a fictional work rearranged in a yet another fashion. This isn't limited to video games, but it would be good if this project came out and said, "No, this isn't what we're here to do." - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we should not be discussing backstories, unless there's something encyclopedic about them. A case might be: "In developing the third sequel, the creators decided to retcon the protagonist's history. The additional background material indirectly relates to the premise of a subplot explored during the middle third of the game. Several gaming magazines criticized the change, citing it as clichéd, uninteresting, and drawn-out." Or something like that. But, in general, just for the sake of having a complete plot? No. — TKD::Talk 21:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Release dates...and [{year} in video gaming]

Could someone clarify the use of release dates please? While I agree that the [year in...whatever] is useful, it breaks the funtionality expected when a full date is used (day, month and year). If you have something like: "October, 25 [put your favorite year here]" then, to me, the date functionality is not being used (dates). If the full date is then wikified properly, as suggested by the MOSDATE, then the piped year will keep the month/day preferences of the user from working. Just below the discussion about this in the MOSDATE article it says there is some disagreement among editors:

“ Another possibility is to link to a more specific article about that year, for example 2006, although some people find this unintuitive because the link leads to an unexpected destination. ”

The suggestion should be for a YEAR standing by itself, and not part of a day/month/year format. Frankly,I don't see why you would want to hide something as useful as "[{year} in video gaming]" behind a piped year. The "baseball guys" like to format dates like this, as well.

I would appreciate any constructive comments.Schmiteye 16:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Communication adventures and People games

If I could have your opinions: looking at the descriptions of People games and Communication adventure they seem rather similar. Are they the same thing, or should one be the subcategory of another? I think that Communication Adventures are a hybrid of People and Adventure games and am tempted to subcat it to People games. Marasmusine 18:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe the Harvest Moon series would belong to this category too? Marasmusine 18:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a quick look at them make me feel like they're complete neologisms that should be deleted. I really can't see how the expansion of computer games into the realm of art as the people game article quotes could be called a people game in any way. It's a phrase no one uses, I doubt David Cage is calling Heavy Rain a people game, do you? It's a neologism, and not a very good one. - Hahnchen 00:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Hahnchen here. I've never heard of the game genres, "Communication" and "people" games, even if Chris Crawford proposed it (hypothetically!). And I've been reading up on the subject of computer and video game genres lately, to add the current references to the article. Category:Communication games and Category:People games should be deleted as well. --SevereTireDamage 04:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"Computer and video games with social objectives" Is that clearly defined enough?. If not I have particular objections to these 'genres' being zapped. Marasmusine 21:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there is a significant distinction, nor any widely-recognized sub-genres to divide these from Category:Life simulation games. For example, in that category, there are two subcats for Virtual pets and Evolution games, which are distinct subgenres and terms that have been widely used over the years. --SevereTireDamage 12:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

{{music-cvg-stub}} created

I went ahead and created {{music-cvg-stub}} per the request I placed here, since it was apparently a case of WP:SNOW. Alongside this new stub, I created the new Category:Music game stubs category, which is a sub-category of Category:Computer and video game stubs. I also began to populate the category, and added ~15-20 articles over the last half hour. Let me know if I screwed anything up, since this is the first time I've created a stub. RandyWang (^{chat me up}/_{fix me up}) 06:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a bunch yesterday, it's up to 36 stubs currently. So, does this category include game music albums, general game music topics, accessories, and the like? --SevereTireDamage 05:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It could, but I'm not sure if that fits the name of the template ("music computer and video game stub", spelled out). We may need an alternative stub for them, although I don't know how we've done this in the past. RandyWang (^{chat me up}/_{fix me up}) 07:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

FA

Chrono Trigger is a Featured Article now! --PresN 19:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Solid Snake also made Good Article. Nice work! --SevereTireDamage 05:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

AutoCVGDeletion

I've modified the automatic cleanup script by User:Raylu to make it possible for people to automatically ad {{subst:CVG deletion}} to AfD pages. The script adds a tab to the top of the page, then automatically places the template at the bottom of the page when clicked, before adding an edit summary, marking the edit summary as minor and clicking "save."

It requires Add LI link and Add tab, so make sure you install those in your monobook.js before using this script.

Hope this is useful for someone other than me. :) RandyWang (^{chat me up}/_{fix me up}) 21:51, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Avoid self-references

I had an edit reverted on Gravis PC GamePad, so I wanted to check with others to see if I was misinterpreting WP:ASR. There's a section currently about how our project uses the GamePad icon that's directly based on this gamepad. Isn't that a Wikipedia self-reference that shouldn't be in the article? --SevereTireDamage 05:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you; I think that, to stay NPOV, we should not give undue weight to particular information simply because it is Wikipedia-related. Nifboy 06:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Game articles as a whole

Is it just me, or has there been a slew of "attacks" on gaming articles as a whole the past weeks. Things get nominated where people simply state "Not notable", "Gamecruft" etc. It's getting out of hand, having to fend of wave on wave of criticism all day long. Havok (T/C/c) 13:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, but I think the comment Jimbo made at Talk:List of commercial failures in computer and video gaming might have had something to do with it. Thunderbrand 15:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, that makes sense. Silly of wanting to delete that article. Didn't even give people the chance to cite anything. Havok (T/C/c) 16:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Because game sub-articles tend to confuse fictional facts with real ones (both stating fictional facts as though they were real, and including fictional facts that are important to the fictional world without any concern for if they're important to the real world). Many of these game articles that are "under attack" are just now, for the first time, under scrutiny. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been thinking about the attacks too and I find them unfounded. guitarhero777777 23:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested Articles

I kind of feel bad every time I delete someone's request for a new article because they didn't give any information about it, while most of the ones on there don't have information. To that point, I'm going to delete all of the requests that don't provide a description or a link. Tomorrow. If there's any that you want to save, do something now- currently, there are 56 requests, and I'm going to delete 30 of them. Better yet, just create one! I haven't seen a link on that list go blue in weeks, even though there are about 6 or 7 new articles listed a day in the New Article section. Comments? --PresN 17:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Why not just leave it alone? I don't see why you feel the need to delete any request with no information about it. The project page doesn't have to be perfect and cleaned up all the time. People don't always have time to create new articles. Due to that, I really think the requests should be left alone. There isn't that many (compared to other projects I bet), so it's not an issue. RobJ1981 17:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It's sort of a continuing process. A couple of weeks ago, there were 132 requests. Requests for Warcraft 3 mods, requests for games that for the life of me I couldn't tell what they were because there was no information, requests for rumored Wii games taht turned out months ago not to exist, requests that were in AfD within hours of being created, in one case, and one that was speedy deleted almost before I saw that it had been created. I cleaned up the list, got rid of the things that should not have articles, and left anyhting that looked like it was a real game, notable or not, rather than just pass my personal judgement on them. Someone else (don't remember who) added the comment at the top that when adding a new request, tell us what it is so that it's easier for someone to create it. Now, I'm thinking about deleting those requests that don't have a description, because about half of the new requests don't, and I'm deleting them. I'm nto asking for much- Human Race down there just has (c64), and that's enough information for me. But Apocripha? What is that? I have no way of knowing, and most people aren't going to hunt down the information to create it unless they were going to anyway. I knwo this, because no one ever creates one of the requested articles. in the past month, I've taken off 5 out of 140ish, and 3 of those were because they were created months ago at a different name, and the creator had never seen the request in the first place. I just think that if the requests had descriptions, they might be created. Otherwise, all of the new articles up there will continue to be things not on the list. --PresN 18:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

(Just FYI- I think that Apocripha is a hentai game, it's real name is Apocripha/0, and a google search for the name will not tell you that anytime soon, I had to infer it from red links in wikipedia. And I still could be completely wrong- only the requestor knows.) --PresN 18:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

From the google search it looks like it's a BL game, (already red linked on that page) but who knows if it's notable in that genre or not. Anyway, another helpful link to put at the top of the section might be for Wikipedia:Articles for Creation, which has more stringent requirements and is very clear about what is appropriate for Wikipedia. I even created Kakuto Chojin from that only because someone had bothered to write 1 sentence and provided two media sources.

But I wouldn't sweat it either. Most tasks, even in the gamebox, take a long time for people to notice them, if they ever get noticed. I don't see a problem with letting things stay for a couple of months, but after that point maybe it's worth clearing things out. --SevereTireDamage 00:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea to clear out any requests that don't provide any information besides a title. The person doing the request can make a small effort at providing some indication what the article should be about, even if they don't know how to actually create a new article. So I say go ahead in clearing out the list. jaco♫plane 00:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

As promised, the apocolypse has happened. I don't plan on ever doing this again, rest assured. As long as there's some sort of description, a request can stay there for as long as it likes, in my opinion. --PresN 17:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Rating System

Hey I've been working on an article for a couple months now. It was given a B rating (I want to get it up to GA status or higher), so I put it on Video and computer games peer review to improve it. I've sinced improved it, but I was wondering when and how an article can be designated as a good or class A article. Thanks to whoever answers this. --Clyde Miller 18:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It has to pass the Good Article nominations to be given the good rating. To be an A class article, it would have to be one step below FA status. See Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment for more info. Thunderbrand 18:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll look into that. --Clyde Miller 20:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I found the nomination page. Thanks. --Clyde Miller 23:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Stub sorting

After a fair amount of work, we're now down to just 193 articles (down from over three hundred in recent times) in Category:Computer and video game stubs! I know I'd appreciate the help cleaning the rest of this category out, so if you have a few spare minutes, help us replace the {{cvg-stub}} tags on these articles with something more appropriate. :) RandyWang (^{chat me up}/_{fix me up}) 00:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• I've looked through several of the unsorted stubs, and they don't seem to fall into any of the categories. Some new categories need to be made, or these stubs will have to remain just as cvg stubs. RobJ1981 22:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • There's enough stubs in many variable categories (like game design concepts, arcade compilations, text BBS games, etc) that will probably never reach 30-60 stubs, so as long as the total number stays under ~200 I think it's okay. --SevereTireDamage 07:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Copyright Help RE: Website Images

I was wondering if we could use images from the EA website regarding the soon-to-be released BF2142. The map images[1] on their site would be entirely useful for the List of maps in Battlefield 2142 article, but I dont know the status of the copyright of such images. Im assuming it would fall under promotional media for an upcoming game, or even a web-resolution screenshot to convey an otherwise impossible topic, but Im not entirely sure. I tried browsing around their Copyright page but couldnt find anything relevant, at all. Any help would be excellent :) -Trjn 04:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The ea.com terms of service page states: "You shall not copy, transmit, modify, distribute, show in public or in private, modify or create any derivative works from the Content you find on EA Online, unless EA expressly authorizes you to do so in writing." So it looks like we can't use those images without prior permission from EA. --Muchness 04:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

CVGproj tag update

Current Status - 1970-2003, Sega: Genesis, CD, 32X, Game Gear, and Saturn confirmed as done.

Got bored, went through List of Sega Saturn games over the course of a week, and List of Sega CD games took maybe an hour. Tagged and rated. Removed '07 and '08 from the list since future years are more unstable (though previous years do see additions every so often). Nifboy 05:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ditto 32X and Game Gear. Nifboy 17:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Update- '89 done. I don't rate them though, as it goes a lot faster if I dont' have to read or even look at the articles. --PresN 18:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

'90 and '91 done. I'm stopping for a bit. --PresN 20:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

You can make the process semi-automatic by customising User:Raylu's quickWikify script, here. I currently have a tab that automatically adds the cvgproj tag and a stub rating when clicked, which could easily be customised to include other ratings as well. Would this interest you? RandyWang (^{chat me up}/_{fix me up}) 21:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I'd like to take a look at it myself, see what I can do with it. Thanks for the link! --PresN 04:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks good, I have your cvgdeletion tab now, as well as a blank project tag tab and a stub tag. Thanks! --PresN 16:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

No problemo - I'm glad you got something useful out of it. :) RandyWang (^{chat me up}/_{fix me up}) 21:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Through '92, and it goes very fast if you have Firefox+mouse gestures+Randy's script(modified). Just open up 30-40 articles at once, run down the line going to the talk page, and either rightclick+move th mouse to close or click the new tab to auto-tag it. --PresN 18:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Finally, they are connected! All articles in the catagories "(year) Computer and Video Games" from 1970 to 2003 have been done. --PresN 21:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Character notability

Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction)#Clarification of "notability" for fictional characters and its subsections contain some discussion about revising the WP:FICT guideline to require secondary or tertiary sources for standalone character articles, and to require that such artcles contain no more than half plot summary / backstory, in order to ensure an out-of-universe perspective. Comments are welcome. — TKD::Talk 10:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I stole your text and posted it on Wikipedia:Wikiproject Warcraft. Havok (T/C/c) 11:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Computer and Video games with multiple possible endings

[[2]] needs to be populated. I've done a bit of adding, but I'm sure there is more to be added. RobJ1981 22:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. I'll add in stuff. -- Solberg 22:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)Solberg

I just thought of something-- is this intended to be a large category? Because most RTS, most dating-sim, and many computer RPG games feature multiple endings. -- Solberg 23:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)Solberg

We could make some of these (dating sims seems appropriate) into a subcategory, perhaps? I Jethrobot 23:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point, what do you think RobJ1981? Also, fighting games (due to number of characters) and modern interactive fiction also uses multiple endings frequently. To some extent it seems unfair to include RTS and fighting games. Should it be stipulated that only games involving the same character/side should be included. (eg this would exclude say Dune because after you choose a side, you only have one possible ending). -- Solberg 23:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)Solberg

I've added a couple. Trying to rack my brains for more. -- Steel 22:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I added the most famous example, Chrono Trigger. guitarhero777777 23:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to add in some things, as well. I Jethrobot 23:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• If there is enough for a subcategory, then create one. RobJ1981 00:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I created a category for dating sims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Dating_sims), and I put 19 titles I was able to find on Wikipedia, though I am sure there are more. I Jethrobot 04:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
• You could find the category for fighting games(if it exist) and probably add all of those to the list since any fighting game with a story mode and multiple characters is going to have multiple endings. Mitaphane _talk 01:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I would just avoid all fighting games and dating sims, since every game in the genres will have multiple endings by nature. Similar to what we did with Category:Computer and video games featuring cooperative gameplay, where we ruled out RTS games and sports games for the same reason. --SevereTireDamage 10:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Might be a niche, but I'd vote to disregard Princess Maker and its sequels as well, on the same account that the games have multiple possibel endings by nature. -- Bakabaka 11:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• The Resident Evil (series) is listed, but I question the whole series. I've played most of the games, and I don't recall multiple endings for all of them. RobJ1981 16:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I sort of added that in haphazardly-- I know that many of the games have different endings depending on your actions through the game, so I thought it'd be cumbersome to list all of them out. I get rid of the Resident Evil (series), and just add in the ones I'm sure of for now. I Jethrobot 22:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Should I add the Harvest moon series because you could get several girls plus the farm could be done or not done being revived.guitarhero777777 16:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

All simulation games, including life simulation games such as Princess Maker, Animal Crossing, and Harvest Moon have multiple endings. It's inherent in the genre. Again, I'd say leave them out, including these games will make the category large to the point of uselessness. It goes against the spirit and intent of the category, as I see it. --SevereTireDamage 17:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought the point of games like Animal Crossing was that they don't end, which is even more reason for leaving them out - X201 17:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• Animal Crossing has no ending, it shouldn't be on the list. RobJ1981 22:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Myst 1-3 and 5 were there, but not 4. It's fixed now. Racking my brains for more games. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current list of game types that we're not including are: Vs. Fighting games, RTS's, Life Simulation games, and Dating Sims? --PresN 18:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• • I know more about older video games, especially NES and SNES games, than I know about these new games. Do you guys think Metroid would count as multiple endings? The only difference was that the player got to see a different sprite of Samus and maybe a different congratulatory message, don't remember. Come to think of it, I remember playing Brave Fencer Musashi for playstation, and I got a different ending after I had collected all of the longevity berries, rescued all of the prisoners, etc., but the only thing different was an extra screenshot of the game characters with a message that said something like "Perfect! Congratulations!" So what is actually considered multiple endings for this category? - New User 22:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
• If fighting games inherently have multple endings, I'd like to leave 'Versus fighting games' as a subcat. Marasmusine 08:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Does [[3]] still need to be populated? I feel as though 87 pages is a decent amount-- I'm removing the tag for now. I Jethrobot 05:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

CVG Current Events July

Can someone archive the July events on CVG current events? I have some notable events for this month that I'd like to put up before we move into October! I'm a new member, so I can't move the page right yet, and there seems to be a backlog of requests on Wikipedia:Requested moves. The "How To" page for arhiving current events can be found here. I Jethrobot 06:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Oy. Okay, that was complicated, since whoever's been doing the updates hasn't been following the procedure listed at the How to Archive page. It makes sense the way they're doing it (create the new month page, redirect Current computer and video games events to the new month) but I had to figure this out. Same with Template:Events in video gaming by month links. It should be updated now. --SevereTireDamage 10:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone else want to help me out in putting up current events? I feel it'd be good if there was an article for each day on CVG current events. I Jethrobot 03:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Another quick question-- is it alright if I delete the events and game release info from July? It doesn't look like we've archived that sort of info from other months, and it doesn't really belong on the August events page. I Jethrobot 06:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Personal computer game

I'm trying to get this article up to GA-class, but appear to be about the only person who ever looks at the article. As such, I'd appreciate some feedback from you guys about the edits I've been making (including the changes I've proposed at the talk page), and some suggestions of where to go from here. Generally, I intend to add additional content to the article, rather than just a whole series of "see also" tags, and remove the (rather hefty) cruft that litters various sections. Any thoughts? RandyWang (^{chat me up}/_{fix me up}) 11:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

List of Nintendo 64 games

Hi guys, I've recently been working on the List of Nintendo 64 games and I think the list is very near to being complete. Could everyone be on the lookout for Nintendo 64 games that aren't on the list, and even better, if a Japanese speaking editor has the time could they take a look at the japanese list of Nintendo 64 games here and see if there are any japan only games missing. Thanks. Timkovski 14:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hah, I'll say you've been working on the list. You're actually the reason that the new pages section is capped at 3 days (2 at the moment) --PresN 18:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

What does capped mean? ChameleonMan 19:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Cut off, closed, etc. Basically, I move the links to the articles to the New Pages Archive, leaving only 3 days worth on the main page. Right now it's 2, because as you can see, Timkovski's been doing about 20 pages a day, and the point of the new pages section is so that people can see that somethings been created, and add to it if they want. If there's a hundred of them there's no point. --PresN 20:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks great, Timkovski! Did you look at this Gamestats list yet? It seems to have about 500 games while the List of Nintendo 64 games only has about 400 (if my text editor counted correctly). Also, wow, I wasn't aware we had a new article list, guess I should start adding my new articles there too. --ADeveria 15:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, if you don't, I don't notice unless they have "game" in the title, so no one puts them in --PresN 03:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahem, yeh, apologies for that, I got a bit carried away. Timkovski 14:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

New Article

I am going to attempt to start an article for the NES game Legacy of the Wizard. I don't know what to name the article, because although I know enough about the North America release of the game to at least write a small article, I have found that this game is from a long series of games in Japan that were never released in North America. The Japanese name I have found from various internet resources (including Wikipedia) is Dragon Slayer IV: Drasle Family when translated into English. I don't know how this is spelled in Japanese. So my dilemma is what to name the article. Personally, I think it should be entitled Legacy of the Wizard and the article should only be about the North American version, but maybe it should include information about the Japanese Dragon Slayer version as well, in which case the title of the article should reflect this. You can see my dilemma here! - New User 17:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• The article should be titled Legacy of the Wizard and you could mention its Japanese title in the article as I assume the versions of the game are the same except for translations. There is some information about the game here Timkovski 17:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, you shoudl create a redirect page called Dragon Slayer IV once the english page is up. The Legacy page shouldn't just be about the NA version, but I'm assuming that other than language, they're the same game? So just in the first sentence, say "Legacy...(Dragon Slayer 4:... in Japan) is blah blah blah. That should cover it. Technically you should get the Japanese name in enlish and katakana, but I have no idea how to write in that. See Final Fantasy VII for how it's usually done. (It'll probably look like (???) for you). --PresN 18:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks PresN. I have already seen how other games write the titles, what with the Japanese name in parentheses and it being written in kanji/kana and all, but I only know the English translation of the Japanese title. If anyone can find the title written in Japanese characters, or if anyone knows enough of the Japanese language to add it to this article, please do so (I am learning Japanese but I am at the ultra-beginner stage of learning the language). Thanks for the advice about the redirect page, I'll be sure to find out how to do that and then do it. I have never played the Japanese version of the game but from what I understand it is essentially the same game. - New User 18:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Redirects are esy, just go to the page you want to create as a redirect, and hit the Pound-R button up above the editing space, and fill in the name of the article you're redirectiong to. --PresN 18:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Here ya go, Legacy of the Wizard (ドラゴンスレイヤーⅣ, Dragon Slayer IV: Drasle Family) Timkovski 18:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

You might want to install East Asian languages before you copy-paste that, if it looks like ?'s, don't think it'll work right otherwise. (if in windows- ctrl panel/Region and Languages/2nd tab- install East Asia langs- needs a windows CD to do it) --PresN 19:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Pictures in the infobox

I have added CVG infoboxes to the articles for Hammer of the Gods and Legacy of the Wizard. I can get most of the information easily enough, but I don't know what to do about the pictures. The set standard is to use the game box art, but in both cases such an image is unavailable to me. I could get the box art from another internet site, like MobyGames or Amazon, but I don't know if that is legal or fair. I have found one such article (Faxanadu) for which the infobox image is clearly from MobyGames, which probaly means either it's OK to do that or the Faxanadu image needs to be removed. For both Hammer of the Gods and Legacy of the Wizard, I could probably get an image of the title screen of the game, or from the game instruction manual. The instruction manual artwork for both looks a little inappropriate because it says Manual or Instruction Manual or something on it. Anyone know what to do about these images? - New User 19:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't use Mobygame images, or any with a watermarked advert in. Better to use a advert free image of the manual cover art (which in many cases is similar to the box) or grab a title screen image. - Hahnchen 19:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

(Editconflicted) I think the way it goes is this- the box covers, as long as it's not a high-res image, is fine. Even if you get it from MobyGames, as long as it doesn't have their logo on it. WP consensus is that small images of box covers are fair use- make sure that you say that when you upload the images. If you can't get a clean, fair-use picture of the box, then common usage seems to be a screenshot of the title screen. I've never seen something from a manual used, and I think that the manual doesn't fall under fair use the way WP defines it. Hope this helps. --PresN 19:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think the use of the manual is fine if the art work is very similar to the box art. I used the cover of the manual for Malice (computer game) because it was the same as the box art but just smaller and better contained. It is fine to grab pictures from Amazon etc if they don't have a watermark on them (which Amazon don't). - Hahnchen 19:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

OK so I got an image from Amazon that will work for Hammer of the Gods... do I upload it to Wikipedia commons, or is this one of those fair use pictures, or what? I mean, what do I do now to get the image into the infobox? - New User 20:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

You cannot upload these kinds of images to commons. You have to use the "Upload file" link in Wikipedia (found in the toolbox on the left), and then select "video game cover" as a license. Then you can add the image in the infobox, jaco♫plane 20:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

CSD on Whiplash (video game)

I have an explaination on my this page shouldn't be speedily deleted, its just a stub, someone could easily expand it ChameleonMan 19:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

You really do have to expand this yourself, because right now you've just but up a contextless substub. The prod notice is only a slight reprieve. Best thing is, is to add in the Template:Infobox VG and put up all the information you know about it, that should be enough for a stub. You should do the same for Wilderness: A Survival Adventure too, because that too could be in danger of deletion. - Hahnchen 19:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for your comments ChameleonMan 19:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• I added the infobox for Whiplash, and put in information I knew (just what systems it was for). RobJ1981 19:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I've added the missing information, (I'll be back tommorow, but I have to go away now) cheers ChameleonMan 19:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I suggest going for start class now ChameleonMan 11:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Rating Games

Late last month I was asking about a game I was working on to be rated, and I was amazed at the informality of the rating system as a whole. I noticed that many games appear to be unrated, if only because people don't think they have the authority to rate articles they are working on. I guess I'll just go ahead and rate them myslef. There really isn't much to the rating sytem anyway just needed, stub, start, B, GA, A, and FA. I wouldn't have even posted this message, but I felt it necessary (I'm not sure why, maybe because the rest of Wikipedia is so bureaucratic and organized that I expected some committee to slap me on the wrist and say I can't do this). --Clyde Miller 20:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, this part really is that informal, except for GA and FA. Those have formal processes, so don't go rating articles like that. The rating system is mainly for the Wikipedia CD 0.5 and 1.0 projects, but those only care about GA and higher anyway, so... Rating things as Stubs, Starts, Bs and such are fine. I'd personally only rate something as A if it is already GA and you feel that it's better than that now. A is a pretty unused class in my opinion- since it's between GA and FA, it's mainly only used on articles that people are readying for FAC. And the needed ratings seem to be anything you want. The only reason that I don't rate need on article that I tag, is because if it's not tagged it's probably needed:no, and I feel bad slapping that on an article that in many cases is only a few hours old. That's just me though. --PresN 20:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah I'm aware that there's a whole process for GA and FA nominations (I have an article nominated for GA right now). Most of the articles I rate are B's because people love the game they're adding onto, and turn an article into an FAQ, so it has a lot of information, but is missing references, reviews, etc. I don't even bother with the whole needed thing. The Wikipedia CD 0.5 and 1.0 projects are doing that. I'm actually just doing this to busy myself while I wait for my GA nomination. Thanks for the help. By the way, I notice you help a lot. If you keep working at this pace, you could be an Admin by September 30 (most people want an admin to be here three months). You know that old chesnut. --Clyde Miller 01:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hah, thanks for the compliment, but I have no interest in becomming an admin. Too much housekeeping and such that I don't want to do, and I'm actually a fairly bad writer to boot. Also, once school starts up again, my time on here will be cut back severly. I just have a bad case of editcountitis at the moment. --PresN 15:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

editcountitis... I should make an article about that...--Clyde Miller 16:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Editcountitis. -- Steel 16:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

gotcha. I amm aawke nwo. --Clyde Miller 20:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Rygar NES game

I was looking at the Rygar article and it's kind of jacked up. Someone on the talk page requested that a seperate article be created for the NES version of this game. If that is the consensus, I will create the article. - New User 09:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd go for it. I know nothing about the game, but from reading the article, it looks like they're completely different games, that just have the same name and a few cosmetic similarities as a marketing tie-in. --PresN 15:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

You're about right. I was always a fan of the NES version, and when I first played the arcade version in the past year or so, I was shocked at the difference in the two. So I guess the article should be titled Rygar (NES game), unless there is some standard for naming CVG articles, right? - New User 15:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Never found a standard for cvg naming, but if there is one, Rygar (NES game) would be it, that seems to be the most prevelant way of naming for situations like this. --PresN 15:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• Once again I need the Japanese name for the game. Rygar's romaji name is Argos no Senshi, but how was that thing done that gets the Japanese charaters? Someone did it for the Dragon Slayer/Legacy of the Wizard title and I just copied and pasted it, I think it was PresN... Might as well tell me how to do it because I have my sights set on Inindo: Way of the Ninja for my next article and I know I'll need the Japanese title for that one too. - New User 22:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

It was Timkovski, actually, though it looks like the section it was in on this page got deleted? Dunno how that happened. I have no idea how to get the translation, unfortunately, so you might try asking him on his talk page. --PresN 03:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair Use Woes

Hey I was going to add a screenshot of a game into an article about it, but I have a slightly different situation then the past times I've uploaded a pic. This time I would have to take it from an internet site (since it's a console game) and I'm not sure if that's legal. All I would be doing is include it in the gameplay section and caption it to help explain how the game is played. By the way, It'd probably be from IGN or Gamespot. Can anyone help me? --Clyde Miller 16:37, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Short answer: no, it's all copyright. Scroll to the bottom of the IGN.com front page and click "User Agreement". Look at Rule 3 section D - X201 17:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well other video game articles have screenshots in them, how did they get around a copyright? I'm pretty sure they didn't use a camera and take a picture of the game. --Clyde Miller 20:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Clyde, I wouldn't take an image from IGN or GameSpot, purely because they have the IGN/GameSpot logo on them. If you find an image, upload it and tag it as fair use. -- Steel 20:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and you need to provide a link to where you got it from. -- Steel 20:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Screenshot copyrights are held by the game developer, not the person who took the screenshots. However, since IGN/Gamespot etc watermark their screenshots, those are not acceptable for use in Wikipedia. jaco♫plane 20:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well I can find other places with pictures of the game (that shouldn't be too hard), but I'm a little unclear whether or not I will be able to use them. How will I know if a company watermarks their pictures? And if they don't, does that mean I can use them? Or is it done on a case by case basis? Or can I never use any internet site's screenshots? --Clyde Miller 20:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Watermark is where they stick their logo on the picture, you can tell if they did or not by seeing if the picture says Gamespy on it. it'l be obvious. If it's just a screenshot, no logo over it, then it's perfectly fine. --PresN 20:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Fun. So now it's a game of finding the inept company that hasn't watermarked or loggod their screenshots. One more quick question. When will the watermark appear? --Clyde Miller 20:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey I found an image that doesn't look like it's watermarked. Here[4] is the image's URL and here[5] is the website. Is this okay? --Clyde Miller 21:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

That's fine, but you'll ned to think to the page [6] that is found on. -- Steel 21:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Many times one can go to the developer's website and get the same images from them, sans watermark. Or if you get your hands on the developer's press kits they have high quality versions of the logos & screenshots. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 06:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll look into that, but for now I have an uploaded picture. Now I just need to add onto the article so there's a place to put it.--Clyde Miller 20:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Citing the instruction manual as a reference

The articles I'm working on are for older games, and I can't find much for solid reference other than the game instruction manual. I copied/pasted the referencing format from Chrono Trigger's citation of the instruction manual, and it all makes sense to me except the last part of which says "id=SLUS-01363". Is SLUS-01363 some kind of book code that identifies that particular instrucion manual? The manuals for the games I want to cite have similar codes, but they are all letters with no numbers.

1. Legacy of the Wizard has NES-LC-USA in fine print on the front cover.
2. Rygar has NES-RY-USA on the front cover.
3. Swords and Serpents has NES-WP-USA on the front cover.

Are these codes the same as what is being referred in the Chrono Trigger citation? If it's not the same, is this code something I need to include in the reference footnote in my articles? - New User 20:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a very enthusiastic, info-shotgun attempt at appeasing FAC; as of late they don't seem to like references that simply read "The games and their instruction manuals". Don't bother, especially if you don't know what it is. Nifboy 23:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

SLUS-01363 is the PS2 disc ID ˉˉ^anetode╦╩ 00:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Referencing the instruction manual is a good thing, when balanced off by secondary/online examples, such as articles/reviews. As long as the reader can understand that this view of the gameplay is not biased and based solely in fact, then it should be fine. Gameplay and story sections are perhaps the most difficult to reference on Wikipedia in relation to pleasing all parties involved. — Deckiller 00:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

A Magazine Project

I had this thought occur to me while nominating Chrono Cross for FA. Many old games were reviewed solely in video game magazines, and we need these reviews for criticism sections. Sometimes these are difficult to come by. A lot of other interesting information is also stored in old VG mags. And, to my belief, a few of us have old archives or stacks of these (I have Nintendo Power 89-140). I propose we designate certain members with these magazines to systematically review them and post interesting or relevant information on games and reviews to be cited in future articles. It'd give a lot of old games extra padding that cannot be found anywhere else, and we could post it all to a page on WP:CVG. --Zeality 12:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The anime and manga Wikiproject had a similar discussion recently about this topic[7]. See also User:GunnarRene/Sources for what they're doing there. I personally ran into this issue too, as I currently need sources for Ninja Gaiden (NES) from magazines of the time period. It would be a useful resource, though sadly I can't really contribute myself, as my old magazines were thrown away long go. --SevereTireDamage 12:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. I have been trying to clean up and add information for older games, and I have often wished I had access to old Nintendo Power issues. I'll keep it in mind to ask you questions about issues 89-140. I lost all my old Nintendo Power mags years ago. - New User 13:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I've thought about it for the last couple hours; here are my ideas. Firstly, we can do what GunnarRene has done and make a template that CVG members can post on their user pages. We'll list copies of EGM, Nintendo Power, PCGamer etc. and we should determine a cut-off date (since most information past a certain period is posted online at magazine sites anyhow). Secondly, we can create a project page like CVG/Magazine where we can post review / top 10 / trivial information. I'm making a distinction between regular features, wherein a magazine discusses the game at length and provides a walkthrough, versus reviews, contests, previews, and lists. The former kind of information would be difficult to type out and would be a tad less useful than the letter, which we could type out on /Magazine and organize it by magazine and date for ease of referencing. We would nonetheless keep track of what games are covered at length on /Magazine. Then, if someone's writing a gameplay section and needs something to cite, we could dig out this information on request. Suggestions? --Zeality 15:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Am I to understand that you want to go through over 50 issues of Nintendo Power and just type out the facts portrayed in them? That seems like it would be a lot of work. How about just listing the games that are featured in each issue like this [8] along with the owner's user name, so if someone is looking for references to those games they can contact the person with the magazine? - New User 16:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh wait I guess that's pretty much what you did say, after all.... pardon me, it's been quite a lot of wikipedia for me in the past couple of days. - New User 16:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This wiki[9] has done a really nice job of summarizing the Nintendo Power issue contents for the first 127 issues, and I imagine they'll keep going. If people here want to do a similar lists for other magazines in user or project space, that'd probably be a good format to follow. --SevereTireDamage 17:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I hinted at something like this at CVG a while back (Archive 8) about listing the magazine libraries we have to offer. But nothing really came of it. As I mentioned there, I have quite a reasonable collection of PC Zone magazine and a few others. I really think a listing of our complete CVG libraries would be a great help. If anyone can be bothered to set up something in the Wikipedia CVG space, then I'd be glad to contribute. (Note that PC Zone have archived many of their reviews, some from many years back, but if need anything not on their website, give me a shout). I also have every single review by Nintendo Official Magazine that was made in 1994 (known as Nintendo Magazine System then). However, I am wary of citing reviews from "official" magazines, being that they have to toe the party line, but if you do want a source for a 1994 released Nintendo game, then message me. - Hahnchen 23:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm a little busy to get into the thick of this discussion, but if you guys ever do get anything off the ground (or need references), I have almost all the issues of Next Generation Magazine(minus the first 13 issues) which span 2/96 to 1/02 at my disposal. Mitaphane _talk 06:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Japan only game category

I was reading up on some of the new articles and I realized they were mostly Japan only. This caused me to think that someone should create a category for Japan only releases. I would do it myself, but I don't know how to create a category and I do not know enough on the subject. guitarhero777777 16:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Add Category:Japan exclusive computer and video games. Combination 13:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Candidates for deletion?

I found some stubs in the Category:Computer and video game fictional element stubs that are little more than definitions. One article, Ungai the eel was just so terrible that it made me want to nominate it for deletion (see the article Unagi (Super Mario 64), but I posted this comment because I don't know anything about the deletion process. Here are some more lousy stubs:

1. Haunted Woods
2. Goldband
3. Falena
4. Consortium (Syphon Filter)

- New User 00:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC) Also what is the March 33 stub all about? It has a CVG stub template but the article doesn't mention what game it's referring to. If it's not about video games, then it's a pretty serious topic for an article. - New User 00:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:PROD is thy friend. Bar that, WP:AfD gives a pretty thorough rundown of the process of nominating an article. Nifboy 00:46, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

To answer your question: March 33 is referring to Conflict: Global Terror. And yes, the article lacks an introduction.--elias.hc 05:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've added a bit of text to the top of the March 33 article to make it clear from the begining that it's about a fictional organisation - X201 07:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Sega Mega Drive vs. Sega Genesis

Please read the following discussion, and give your view on the matter. Remember to read all the comments, as they might help you decide if it should be supported or not. Havok (T/C/c) 10:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

FARC

Starcraft has been moved off of FARC, and kept as a featured article. Wario, however, has moved from FAR to FARC. Please help out with this article, so that we don't have a third formerly featured article for this project. Thanks! --PresN 18:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)