Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Curling/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

We need to talk about RCF

So I realize that in some ways, RCF is Russia. But in some other ways, RCF is definitely not Russia, and I think sometimes the distinction is important.

For example, at List of World Women's Curling Champions#All-time medal table, Russia is listed as having 2 silver medals (2017 & 2021). WCF database (assuming it's correct) says [1] [2] Russia only has 1, because there was no Russia in 2021. I believe that was the entire point of it, that RCF does not contribute to Russia's medal count.

I believe that was also the case with OAR in 2018 Olympics: none of those OAR medals count for Russia's tally as far as IOC and official records are concerned.

• [3] "the medals they’ve won won’t go toward Russia’s medal count in the history books"
• [4] "any medals won by the athletes will not be added to Russia's official medal count"

Am I right, or is that another primary vs secondary thing again? If there is one independent reliable newspaper out there (secondary source) that says that Russia won a silver medal at 2021 World Women's so now they have 2, does Wikipedia report that as such, or are we supposed to report what WCF (primary source) officially says, all those secondary sources be damned? -- 15:29, 26 June 2021 (UTC)CurlingClips (talk)

I remember when I was watching on TSN, they did say something along the lines of "RCF is in the final for the first time since 2017", with the implication that they were in fact Russia. I think you're going to see that official sources vs. secondary sources will do things differently. See also All-time Olympic Games medal table for how they handle the situation.-- Earl Andrew - talk 16:18, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

This is somewhat pedantic, but RCF did exist in 2017, so saying that 2017 was RCF's first time reaching the final and 2021 was RCF's second time is technically correct. Similarly, you can say that about Kovaleva too, because she was in both games. What you're not supposed to say, if you care about rules, is that Russia reached the final for the second time in 2021 and won a silver medal. Russia was not in 2021 at all, so of course they didn't win any medal. But like you said, secondary sources may or may not care about such details, which I suppose means neither does Wikipedia. -- CurlingClips (talk) 17:16, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

"Team Russia" can named (by IOC or WCF) time to time as OAR or RCF, but counting must be for Russia. -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 20:48, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the All-time Olympic Games medal table that User:Earl Andrew brought up does not include the 17 medals that OAR won in 2018 for Russia. In February 7, 2018, Russia's count is 120, and it remained 120 until August 2020, where it became 121 after CAS reinstated Olga Vilukhina's old silver medal. The 17 medals that OAR won in 2018 is not counted for Russia. The two articles I mentioned earlier says that this is the correct thing: Russia was banned from competing in 2018, and still is banned, so Russia can not win any new medals until the ban period is over. -- CurlingClips (talk) 23:36, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Wikidata import

Handedness

I've started importing data into Wikidata. I'm starting small with just adding "playing hand" (P741) information from https://results.worldcurling.org/Person

I ran into a few conflicts. I think these are all because WCF database & CurlingZone disagrees.

• Richard Hart (WCF is wrong, curler is lefty)
• Anna Kubešková (CZ is wrong, curler is lefty)
• full list

I'll try to import more data rom WCF database, but I've now concluded that it's actually full of errors and idiosyncrasies. Names are misspelled (e.g. Dale Johnston), one person might have multiple IDs (e.g. J. D. Lind), etc. Maybe we can send them an e-mail to get things fixed? Or is it not worth it because this data is understood to be poor quality? Let me know what you think either way. CurlingClips (talk) 22:20, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Update: yeah, I think sometimes both CZ and WCF are wrong. Nadine Lehmann is a lefty based on a few footage that I can find [5], but both sources say she's a righty. -- CurlingClips (talk) 01:53, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

I've come across errors before in both databases (more at CS to be honest), but seeing Richard Hart as a righthander is truly shocking. Emailing them might work, they responded to my last email a long time ago. All this to say, this is why relying on secondary sources is preferred. -- Earl Andrew - talk 03:52, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Wait, now I'm even more confused. I thought WCF/CZ are secondary sources when stating facts about curlers. Are you saying that they are in fact primary sources? I thought primary sources would be something like sourcing to Richard Hart's autobiography or something he said in a podcast/interview. I thought a database independent of Richard Hart stating facts about Richard Hart counts as a secondary source. Did I get that wrong? -- CurlingClips (talk) 04:47, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Well, it "feels" like a primary source. I'm no expert on the definitions though, so maybe I'm wrong. -- Earl Andrew - talk 05:15, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure WCF/CZ are primary-ish sources because they get their info directly from the curlers (and mistakes are probably a result of using defaults). At any rate, they're not independent sources. There's nothing inherently wrong with using primary sources for this basic factual stuff (especially since I doubt there are many independent secondary sources that discuss players' handedness), but the fact that there are mistakes complicates things. It's probably worth emailing CZ, because they probably want accurate info anyway. Allthegoldmedals (talk) 10:17, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Participating countries

I've expanded the import to events, so they all look like this. It has basic championship series structural data, start/end dates, and list of participating countries and their ranking/records. I've only done World Men's, Women's, Wheelchair, Mixed, and Mixed Doubles for now.

So you can generate medals table, similar to List of World Women's Curling Champions#All-time medal table, except this one separates RCF from RUS, which is how WCF does it.

You can also do new queries like list of all undefeated championship runs.

Let me know if you have any feedback. I have more ideas, but honestly I think I need to discuss how we're going to handle curling in Wikidata before I go too far. -- CurlingClips (talk) 19:36, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Update: here's a fun one you can play with: Performance timeline chart. It's basically a line chart time series version of List of World Women's Curling Champions#Performance timeline. You can click on the colored rectangles in the legend to toggle the corresponding line (i.e. hide the lines you don't care to see). -- CurlingClips (talk) 20:39, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Cannabis and sports

New stub: Cannabis and sports. Any project members care to help expand? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:02, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I think for curling, a more relevant article would be Alcohol in curling, similar to Template:Alcohol by countries. Lots of newspaper articles/news reports/book chapters on the topic. -- CurlingClips (talk) 23:54, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Brier Morning Classes

• Nate Vandermeer (March 2, 2020). "Morning Class at the Brier is a 72-year tradition". CTV News. It's a tradition that dates back to the Second World War where Canadian officer Colin Campbell gave early morning gin to his troops digging tunnels or munitions caves to boost morale.
• Joe Pavia (March 9, 2016). "Morning class part of the fun at Brier". Ottawa Sun. [Campbell] introduced morning classes at the Calgary Brier in 1948.
• Attending morning class part of the fun at Brier. Ottawa Citizen.
• Sean Fitz-Gerald (March 10, 2016). "'Morning Classes' the epitome of curling camaraderie". Its existence is publicized by word of mouth. (And made possible, largely, by Curling Canada providing a room.)

Brier Patch

• Ryan Horne (March 4, 2020). "Tales from the Brier Patch". The Sports Network. Officially established in 1982, the Patch has been a place where curlers and fans alike have come together during Brier week to make new friends over a drink (or two), enjoy each other's company, watch live musical entertainment and to have some good, old-fashioned fun.
• Cathal Kelly (March 6, 2020). "The Brier is curling's celebration of its old-timey values and classless society". The Globe and Mail. The Brier is where you go to watch curling and the Patch is where you go afterward to drink about curling.
• Allison Bamford (March 3, 2018). "Regina curling fans hit Brandt Centre for inaugural wild card game". Global News. In Saskatchewan, curling is synonymous with consuming large amounts of alcohol

Team World alcohol ban at 2012 Continental Cup of Curling

• "Team World takes serious approach to Continental Cup". Calgary Herald. January 11, 2012. [Team World] are taking this event seriously, and [it] has begun to evolve from being purely a curiosity to being a legitimate, and meaningful, competition.
• George Karrys (January 12, 2012). "Curling booze ban makes waves". The Curling News.
• Mike Beamish (January 12, 2012). "Team World has sober outlook". The Vancouver Sun. booze is such an integral part of the game's culture from its Scottish roots alternate link
• "Continental cup curling World team opts for booze ban". Winnipeg Free Press. January 12, 2012. Curlers have long been known to share a pint of beer or other alcoholic beverages after matches in the sport which is considered highly sociable.
• "Ulsrud clinches Continental Cup for Team World". CBC. The Canadian Press. January 16, 2012. We knew this alcohol question would be a talk of the town, and it was [...] But it really helped us, I would say, and now we'll have a great time."

Alcohol ban in Sochi 2014

• Nick Miller (February 15, 2014). "Sochi Winter Olympics: Alcohol ban against 'the spirit of curling'". The Sydney Morning Herald. curling and beer, these things tend to go hand in hand
• Andy Bull (November 20, 2018). "Beers on ice: Canadian curlers show why sport and alcohol don't mix well". The Guardian. curling journalists complained to the organisers because the only booze on sale at the Olympic rink was alcohol‑free beer
• Nora Princiotti (February 13, 2018). "Canada's Olympic curlers brought their own beer". Boston Globe. It's the only Olympic sport designed to be played while drinking a beer
• Brian Costa (February 11, 2014). "Russia's Ban on Alcohol in Arenas Leaves Drinkers Flat". Wall Street Journal. Who wants to watch curling sober? No one. I'll tell you that right now.

Alcohol ban in juniors

• Bill Graveland (April 11, 2009). "Juniors slapped with booze ban: WCF adopts zero tolerance policy on rowdies". The Eye Opener. Curling Canada. p. 11: the [CCA] found that allowing any drinking at the junior events proved disastrous and the WCF move is long overdue.

See also: Shawn Adams

• "Board of Directors Meeting: September 26 ‐ 27, 2009" (PDF). United States Curling Association. May 5, 2010. p. 10: We have a problem with drinking at Junior Nationals.
• "2019-20 USCA Rules of Curling & Competition" (PDF). United States Curling Association. p. 31: Older players on a team with younger players who cannot drink alcohol may not encourage drinking by the underage members of their team
• "Local/Regional Academy Athlete Agreement 2020-21" (PDF). Scottish Curling. In accordance with the players code of conduct no alcohol should be consumed by funded athletes during training and competition. The WCF have an alcohol ban at the World Junior Championships.

2018 Red Deer Curling Classic incident

• Aimee Lewis (November 20, 2018). "'They were breaking brooms' – Curling team kicked out of tournament for drunkenness". CNN. We were disrespectful and the committee was right to disqualify us from further play which we did not argue.
• Andy Bull (November 20, 2018). "Beers on ice: Canadian curlers show why sport and alcohol don't mix well". The Guardian.
• Gregory Strong (November 19, 2018). "Excessive drinking before game leads to team's ejection from World Curling Tour event in Alberta". Global News. The Canadian Press.
• Susan Zielinski (November 20, 2018). "Curling and drinking go 'hand in hand,' says Red Deer rink manager". Red Deer Advocate. in the old days, there used to be cigar smoking and drinks on the ice, but that doesn't happen anymore.
• The StarPhoenix & Regina Leader-Post editorial boards (November 21, 2018). "Editorial: Drunk curlers show need for culture shift". All over Canada, curling rinks almost always contain a bar.

Misc

• Photos and videos of old school curlers with beer on ice?
• "Italian soda, anyone?" (PDF). Curling Canada. drinking and driving is no longer tolerated in our country
• "Curling and drinking at Winnipeg's MCA Bonspiel". CBC Digital Archives. After the 2003 Manitoba Bonspiel bar managers noted a decline in drinking among players. Competitors are taking the game more seriously and even casual participants are curtailing their consumption.
• Bob Weeks (December 21, 2009). "Curler sends his demons packing on road to 2010". The Globe and Mail. Aside from the booze, the other constant in his life had been curling. But the sport has been intertwined with alcohol seemingly forever, the post-match drink a ritual. Benton had to ask himself if he truly loved the sport or just what came with it.

A change in drinking culture post-Olympics

• Cathal Kelly (March 6, 2020). "The Brier is curling's celebration of its old-timey values and classless society". The Globe and Mail. Curling's drinking culture isn't as romanticized as it once was. Blame that (and just about everything else) on the Olympics.
• "World curlers lose the booze for Continental Cup play". The Hamilton Spectator. The Canadian Press. January 11, 2012. The rule is nothing new for British curlers [...] They have been subject to strict guidelines on drinking since curling became an Olympic sport.
• Joe Pavia (November 17, 2015). "Ferbey the last of the beer-drinking curlers". Ottawa Sun. Elite curlers -- those competing for an Olympic berth, for example -- train more seriously nowadays as the sport becomes less social and more competitive.
• Brian Costa (January 15, 2014). "Curlers: They're Not So Fat Anymore". Wall Street Journal. At a time when cigarettes and beer were as much a part of curling as ice and brooms, the very notion of a pre-Olympic physical-conditioning test was controversial.

Etiquette/rules

• Milwaukee Curling Club. "Post-game Etiquette / Tradition". Behind each sheet in the lounge is a table. It is customary to sit down and chat and share a drink with your team members and opponents after a game.
• Coldwater Curling Club. "Rules & Etiquette" (PDF). Winning teams buy drinks for opposition & then opponents reciprocate
• Seattle Curling Club. "Game Etiquette Basics". Socializing is a big part of the curling culture, and the curling tradition has the winning team buying drinks for the losing team, and that everyone socializes over a drink after the game.
• "The Rules of 'Beer League' Curling". If you do not get the rock past the hog line, you have to buy the first round of drinks.
• Jean Mills (October 6, 2010). "Around the house: curling etiquette". Curling Canada. Winners buy the losers a drink, and the losers return the favour in round two. That is how the game is played, and we curlers wouldn't have it any other way.

List of teams

For each curling season we make an article "List of teams on the "–" World Curling Tour". For these articles we use the list of teams on CurlingZone as a reference but now that CurlingZone is no longer affiliated with the WCT, what are we going to name this article? I was getting ready to make the one for the 2021–22 season but I don't know what to name the article. Any thoughts/suggestions? -- TracyFleuryFan (talk) 22:01, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

It's a bit weird with the whole takeover of the WCT. It seems a lot of major events are no longer affiliated? Or do we not know at this point? You could list all the teams on the WCT ranking list -- Earl Andrew - talk 02:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

That was one of my thoughts at first however CurlingZone also covers the WCT events and teams on their page (for the most part). I was thinking maybe a title like "List of teams for the 2021–22 curling season" or "List of teams on the 2021–22 season". The WCT rankings list also doesn't cover alternates for the teams, which CurlingZone does. Just a few ideas... -- TracyFleuryFan (talk) 03:37, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

"List of curling teams in the 2021–22 season" or "List of teams in the 2021–22 curling season", maybe. Allthegoldmedals (talk) 10:10, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry I keep forgetting to check this but "List of teams in the 2021–22 curling season" sounds good to me, I'll get working on the page. -- TracyFleuryFan (talk) 03:51, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Can anyone update "red links" lists?

Can anyone update "red links" lists? Wikipedia:WikiProject Curling/Curling (red links) (last update April 11, 2021) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Curling/Curlers by nationality (red links) (last update March 23, 2021). Tool "Missing topics" not runnig for me on Eng-Wiki (I don't know why; on Rus-Wiki it runs OK)... -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 12:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

The FIRST Belgian curler

The FIRST Belgian curler Dirk Heylen added. And not existed categories too (included "base" Category:Curling in Belgium). New curling country! :) -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 16:42, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

New Olympic trials abbreviations for stats tables

The Canadian trials direct-entry event and pre-trials direct-entry event are coming up, and I think we should come up with abbreviations for stats tables (ex. Laura Walker for the trials direct-entry and Laurie St-Georges for the pre-trials direct-entry). Currently, pre-trials is "Olympic Pre-Q" and trials is "COCT". (I wonder if one of those should be changed too?) "Olympic Pre-Q Direct-Entry" and "COCT Direct-Entry" seem a little long and confusing. Thoughts? Allthegoldmedals (talk) 10:57, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

"COCT" and "COPQ" (Canadian Olympic Pre-Q) seems good (for me - but I'm from Siberian taiga ;) ), it must have "Canadian" inside as I think. -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 11:30, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

We should probably change the Pre-trials to "COCT - Pre" and then the direct entry event - "COCT - PreQ" maybe? And then for the COCT Direct entry, "COCT - Dir."? -- Earl Andrew - talk 19:25, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I like "COCT – Pre" and "COCT – Dir". The only thing about "COCT – Pre-Q" is that it could get confused with "COCT – Pre", but we can think on it. At any rate, if Curling Canada uses abbreviations this week, we could use those. Allthegoldmedals (talk) 21:00, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Flags

I see this year, @TracyFleuryFan: has begun using the UK flag on various articles, rather than the Scottish flag. This is in line with CurlingZone and the WCT, but those sites have also started using Canadian flags rather than provincial flags for teams. I think for consistency, we should either keep using the flag of Scotland to represent Scottish teams (except for the Olympics of course) OR adopt just national flags for all tour events (which I think will look rather odd for some events that don't have a lot of international teams). -- Earl Andrew - talk 18:44, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Earl. Yeah I was following what CurlingZone had listed for the women's teams as they are listed out of the UK while the men's teams are listed out of Scotland still. I think it would be best to keep them all as Scotland and keep the provincial flags for Canadian teams rather than the national flag. I'll go change them to Scotland right now, thanks! -- TracyFleuryFan (talk) 18:57, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Ahh, good then. I thought you may have had strong feeling about it, and so I thought I'd open it up to the community to discuss. -- Earl Andrew - talk 19:50, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Rhona Martin listed at Requested moves

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Use of provincial flags for Grand Slam of Curling events

At issue: whether the use of the Northern Ontario flag is preferable when using flag icons in GSOC-related pages. I've moved the following discussion from User talk:Earl Andrew for further input.

• I see you've reverted these edits without explanation. Could you elaborate? 162 etc. (talk) 16:03, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Hello, curlers only represent Northern Ontario in Curling Canada competitions (Brier, the Scotties, etc). For tour events, we have used the Ontario flag for any team from Ontario, regardless if they're from the North or not. This is because we use flags to identify what jurisdiction the team is from, and Northern Ontario only exists as a separate jurisdiction for Curling Canada events, and is not a separate province in reality. If you object to this practice, you are welcome to bring it up at WP:CURLING. -- Earl Andrew - talk 16:19, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

If we "use flags to identify what jurisdiction the team is from", then every Canadian team in tour events should be identified with a Canadian flag, because as you said, curlers only represent their provincial association in Curling Canada events. If we prefer to use provincial flags for tour events (as the articles currently do), then it is inaccurate to show Northern Ontario teams as Ontarian. 162 etc. (talk) 16:31, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I'll also note that I don't see any guideline addressing this issue at WP:CURLING. 162 etc. (talk) 16:32, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

It used to be that sources like CurlingZone used provincial flags for teams, but have recently adopted national flags. You can make the argument that perhaps we should make the switch too, though it would take a lot of work to go back and make those changes to all the appropriate articles. But anyways, since Northern Ontario is not an actual province, it doesn't make sense to use their Association flag for teams from Northern Ontario for events where they are not actually representing Northern Ontario. We don't have a written policy on it, but it is a presumed policy, because that's how we've always done it, and no one has objected to it until now. -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:38, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

As an encyclopedia, our articles should be factual, and the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards using Canadian flags all around. The current standard, say in the case of Jacobs, is that he lives in Ontario, so we use an Ontario flag. So should Tracy Fleury and Jennifer Jones use an Ontario flag? After all, these aren't Curling Canada events, they aren't representing Manitoba, and they live in Ontario. That doesn't seem right, does it? 162 etc. (talk) 17:55, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Flag choice is not based on where the skips live, but where reliable sources indicate their team curls out of. Anyway, if you want to make drastic changes to the way we do thing, you're going to have to move this discussion to a more appropriate avenue than my talk page (i.e. WP:CURLING). -- Earl Andrew - talk 18:30, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Reliable sources definitely indicate that the Jacobs and McCarville rinks curl out of Northern Ontario. 162 etc. (talk) 19:04, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I can see how using Canadian flags is logical, since we use national flags for teams from other countries. In practice, though, a lot of Slams (especially in past years) have far more Canadian teams than international teams, so using Canadian flags doesn't make a lot of sense – provincial flags would present more useful information. As Earl said, sources like CurlingZone also used to have provincial flags for teams. GSOC still defines Canadian teams' locations by city and province, and international teams' locations by city and country (Team Homan from Ottawa, ON; Team Hasselborg from Sundbyberg, SWE; Team Jacobs from Sault Ste. Marie, ON – not NO). Yes, reliable sources indicate that Jacobs and McCarville are from NO, but it also isn't disputable that Northern Ontario is in Ontario, so saying they're from ON isn't wrong. Based on all this, I don't see a compelling reason to change what we have currently: I think provincial flags (with Ontario instead of Northern Ontario) are fine. Allthegoldmedals (talk) 11:25, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

I should also add that the green Northern Ontario "flag" is only used at Curling Canada events, as it's the flag of the NOCA, so it would be inappropriate to use in tour articles.-- Earl Andrew - talk 12:09, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

• Not seeing much participation here, so I'll conclude with the following:
  • Reliable sources covering the GSOC refer to these rinks as Canadian, and do not use provincial flags or identifiers.
  • Using the Ontario flag for rinks that curl out of Northern Ontario is inaccurate.
  • Using the provincial flag in these articles may violate MOS:FLAGRELEVANCE.
  • Therefore, my opinion is that provincial flag icons should not be used in GSOC articles. Not opposed to a Canadian flag linking to the province.
    For example: Brad Jacobs.

That being said, I'm not volunteering to fix it all, so maybe it will just stay. 162 etc. (talk) 18:19, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, the Grand Slam did refer to teams' provinces before the 2020, which you can see in this photo gallery from 2019. It is hard to tell from this photo gallery from 2021, but there is one photo where you can make out "CAN" beside Jones in one of the photos. I do know for a fact that they used Ontario (not Northern Ontario) as a designation for Jacobs. I might be able to find evidence of this, if necessary. Anyway, as for their relevance, it's always been a tradition to use flags to denote teams. This is something used at CurlingZone for example. Prior to 2020, they also used provincial flags for the teams, but have switched to national flags. You could make the argument that maybe we should make the switch too, to follow suit, but I think it would be ridiculous to apply this to events from 10-20 years ago, where many Slams didn't even have any (or few) international teams.-- Earl Andrew - talk 19:59, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Article Guidelines

Hey everyone. I know we've talked and debated about this before but I'd like to come to a decision about the article guidlines. I've been updating the List of teams in the 2021–22 curling season and have been using the Wikipedia:WikiProject Curling/Article Guidelines to determine if a curler is notable. The first point states that a curler is presumed notable if he or she: "Has won a World Curling Tour event or participated in a Grand Slam of Curling event." This worked before when every tour event was considered a World Curling Tour event, however, the WCT now only holds a select number of events and makes up very little of the tour. I wouldn't be opposed to changing this to "has won a tour event," but I would like to hear some feedback as it is now a lot tougher to determine if a curler is notable or not. Thanks! -- TracyFleuryFan (talk) 02:59, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

This is a bit of a dilemma. If by "tour event" we mean events listed on CurlingZone, I'm hesitant to say winning a tour event presumes notability because I don't think this would be true – some of the events on CZ are small events without any high-level teams/notable curlers (including, but not limited to, the U20 and U25 events). The other issue with broadening the notability guidelines is that it's not just our call to make; since it's a Wikipedia guideline, it has to go through WP:NSPORT, and given what happened with the world wheelchair curling debate, I'm not sure we'd ultimately be successful in making that change. If you want to be sure of whether a curler is notable, WP:GNG is the best way to go. I suppose you're only asking, though, because of the decision of whether to add red links or not, so it isn't a huge deal – if it's plausible that an article on a certain curler would be created at some point, then adding the link is fine. Allthegoldmedals (talk) 12:12, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Yup, going through WP:NSPORT would be an ordeal to say the least. I imagine it will get reviewed again by someone who thinks the standards are too lenient, and I think that would be a good time to update it. In the meantime, we could draft an updated interpretation of the guidelines. Perhaps we should come up with a baseline SFM or purse to judge events by? I'd say purse value might be a best standard, as we can retroactively apply it to pre-tour events (though, that begs the question about whether or not we should factor in inflation).-- Earl Andrew - talk 15:03, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Template "Sports links" don't show CurlingZone ID for curlers

Hmmm... Today right now (hour ago) I found that {{Sports links}} dont't show CurlingZone ID for curlers (CZ ID from Wikidata), for example look at Eigil Ramsfjell. Someone user "Pppery" today commented (excluded) string
-- { prop='P3556', message='[$2 $1] at CurlingZone$3', short='[$2 CurlingZone]', langcode='en' },
in Module:External links/conf/Sports, because someones (who are those guys???) here decided that "Curlingzone is NOT a reliable site"... Why?? for what?? @Earl Andrew:, @TracyFleuryFan:?? -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 06:13, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

They have a point, CZ's not the most reliable source of information, unfortunately.-- Earl Andrew - talk 06:17, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Arena curling

Hi all, I was reviewing the article Arena curling and my WP:BEFORE found absolutely zip. I figured before I AFD'ed it I would ask some people who knew more about curling than I do what they think - the article is quite long but has no references, so is this actually a thing, maybe under a different name? FOARP (talk) 16:29, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

It is a thing, though it's more common outside Canada, which normally has dedicated curling facilities. And because it's not common in Canada, which is where curling is the most popular, there are going to be fewer sources. Anyway, I did notice the article is using my old photo which was taken at a curling club (a dedicated facility, not at an arena), so that's one thing I'll change. -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:38, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Are there any sources for this? It's looking like an AFD case. FOARP (talk) 11:48, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Jubilee is coming!

For today on English Wikipedia exists 4993 articles into category "Curling" and its subcategories. Only 7 articles to great number 5000! Look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Curling/Curling (red links) for numbers. Thanks to @Earl Andrew: and others! -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

5000 (five thousand) articles!

It's done! 5000 (five thousand) articles into category "Curling" and its subcategories. 5000th article is "The Curling News" (created by "Wiki-curling chief" @Earl Andrew: yesterday). Thanks to all editors - Earl, @TracyFleuryFan:, @Allthegoldmedals:, @A202985: etc. Hard-hard-hard! :) -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 20:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

That's awesome! I've been really busy with school lately :( but this is a huge milestone for this WikiProject. Here's to all the articles we've written, and to the articles that just haven't been written yet :) Allthegoldmedals (talk) 14:01, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Pending proposal to declare NSPORTS (and NCURLING) an invalid argument at AfD

A new proposal is now pending to add language to NSPORT providing, among other things, that "meeting [NSPORTS or NCURLING] would not serve as a valid keep argument in a deletion discussion." If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, please feel free to add your comments at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Subproposal 1 (NSPORT). Cbl62 (talk) 15:06, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Discussion about deletion of curling-bio-stub-categories

Hi @Earl Andrew:, @TracyFleuryFan:, @Allthegoldmedals: ! Can anyone say the word in this discussion about deletion of curling-bio-stub-categories? -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 16:07, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Goodbay for some time! (maybe)

Hi all! @Earl Andrew:, @Allthegoldmedals:, @TracyFleuryFan: and all curling-Wiki-editors
Maybe I will cannot write to Wikipedia some time, because Wikipedia can be blocked in Russia by Russian government today-tomorrow-or... (for the "fake information about Russian military friendly help to Ukraine by tanks and bombs down from sky", as this Kremlin's liers said) - or international cross-border providers (like Cogent, look here about it) can cutting off internet communications from Russia to "big World" (and Wikipedia too of course) till today or tomorrow.
I'm Russian in Russia - and I'm NOT support crazy Putin's deadly things vs Ukraine! It's GREAT SHAME for many-many people in Russia - but today we (yet) can't stop this fools in Kremlin. And we must PAY for our "tsar" and his criminal/stupid "friends-oligarchies with billions bucks in Western banks" - pay as ALL German people in Germany payed in 1945 for "Hitler and friends" ((((( So... I don't know when connection will back and I will can continue write to Wiki about curling... days or week or months or years...
GOOD GAME to all of us! Hard-hard-hard!
If you'll want send me some words - try (I don't sure that it will working in this "divided world" future) to write to mail gustow33 [at] mail [dot] ru
See you all (sometime in "tomorrow")! -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 08:19, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I hope to see you back onwiki eventually. Sorry this is happening to you. Until then, Good Curling - IAmChaos — Preceding unsigned comment added by ImNotChaos (talk • contribs) 08:24, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Cheers, Alexey! We're all hoping for peace, and hopefully Putin will comes to his senses soon. -- Earl Andrew - talk 13:12, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

All the best Alexey! Praying for peace. Thank you for all you do in the project and I'm sorry that you're getting swept up in all this mess. Hope to see you back here soon and good curling. TartarTorte 14:18, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Stay safe, Alexey! Hope this will end in peace, sooner rather than later, and see you then. Allthegoldmedals (talk) 14:36, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Sending good thoughts Alexey! Hope you stay safe and are able to return soon… TracyFleuryFan (talk) 22:42, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Curling notability guidelines

Following a recent request for comments where consensus was reached to remove participation-based criteria from the sports notability guidelines, I started a discussion about the effect on the curling guidelines. Comments are welcome at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports) § Curling. isaacl (talk) 04:55, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@TracyFleuryFan:, @Allthegoldmedals:, @A202985:, @Krazytea: Feel free to weigh in. -- Earl Andrew - talk 20:34, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Bad news - template "Sports links" nominated for deletion

Very bad news I mean - good useful template {{Sports links}} nominated for deletion. See discussion here. @TracyFleuryFan:, @Allthegoldmedals:, @A202985:, @Earl Andrew:. -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 17:33, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Robert Wilson (Scotland)

Can anyone tell (or find sources) - Robert Wilson (Bobby) who played for Scotland on WCC 1987, is the same person with Robert Wilson, who was 1991 and 1992 Scottish mixed champion with Robin Gray, Rhona Martin and Joan Wilson? I couldn't find any sources about "the same person" when I yesterday wrote article in Russian Wiki ru:Уилсон, Роберт (кёрлингист). -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 18:28, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Well, he know he was 22 in 1987, and here is a picture of the winning rink in 1991, and he looks fairly young there, so I'm leaning toward it being the same person.-- Earl Andrew - talk 20:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Earl - it's little bit better than nothing :) but it's not "the source" for Wiki I mean. So I don't add this 2 mixed golds to him yet. -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 01:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Scottish champions are NOT notable??

Strange thing... Very strange.

Look to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richard Pretsel (he's two-time Scottish champion) with such arguments... -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 00:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Notability guidelines have changed, see WP:NCURL. Allthegoldmedals (talk) 12:56, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

As I can see - now World Men's or Women's champion (as only this title owner, without any other criteria) isn't notability person, but bronze medallist on Canadian Juniors is. Strange... but "this is a law". OK, I will know for "not needed work". -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 14:35, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

We never really came to a resolution in our recent discussion. Appearances at Worlds, Briers and Scotties were removed completely without any replacement. -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:03, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Andrea Crawford

Andrea Crawford changed her name back to Andrea Kelly recently, with her team now known as Team Kelly. Not sure about the notability issue of the name but I was going to move her page to Andrea Kelly (curler) as Andrea Kelly is already taken, thoughts? TracyFleuryFan (talk) 04:14, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I say move to (curler). By pageviews, Andrea Kelly is much more PRIMARYTOPIC. However it looks like there are a few redirects with Andrea Kelly, so maybe I'll draft a DAB. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 04:24, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Created Andrea Kelly (disambiguation). Happy Editing--IAmChaos 04:29, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Carmen Schäfer listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Carmen Schäfer to be moved to Carmen Schäfer (curler). This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 04:49, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

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Can't update "red links list" for curlers

Strange thing: I easy can update Wikipedia:WikiProject Curling/Curling (red links) - but from 25 April can't update Wikipedia:WikiProject Curling/Curlers by nationality (red links) ("Missing Topics" tool running, but with no rezults). Hmmm... -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 22:38, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Fine with me, I don't understand the point of the latter.-- Earl Andrew - talk 13:27, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Hmmmm... black magic... Right now I tried again - with "Curling (red links)" work time ~25 sec., with "Curlers by nationality (red links)" - I wait 5 minutes and it didn't finish :( Maybe some "endless loops" in algorithm (and data set for "Curlers by nationality (red links)")? I don't understand... -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 14:30, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

James Fleming (curling and cricket)

Hello all. I have created an article on the above Scottish cricketer, who was also part of the Scottish 1949 World Championship winning side (though the article on that says it began in 1959). Leaving this here if anyone wishes to expand his curling endeavours. StickyWicket (talk) 09:36, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I would suggest moving the article to James Fleming (cricket), as his curling career is rather minor, I suspect. He did not in fact win the World Championships in 1949 as the World Championship did in fact begin in 1959, but he probably won the Edinburgh International, which was called the "Worlds Curling Championship" at the time. Also, he wouldn't have been on the Scottish team, as I suspect all the teams in the event would've been Scottish. -- Earl Andrew - talk 13:27, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the edits to the article Earl Andrew, I've moved him to James Fleming (sportsman). StickyWicket (talk) 15:33, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Rhona Howie (Martin) and David Howie?

Can anyone research - Rhona Howie (Martin) and David Howie (curler) (both are Scottish curlers) have any relationship like "father and daughter" or something else? Or they have the same surname only? (by the way, we don't know yet David Howie's birthdate and birthplace) -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 23:06, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Couldn't find anything, but I found David Howie's age, so we know he was born around 1927. He may be dead, but can't find any references to an obituary. According to this, Rhona's father's name is Drew. -- Earl Andrew - talk 01:58, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Great! As Russians said: "С паршивой овцы хоть шерсти клок" (Even a mangy sheep’s good for a little wool) :) -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 02:37, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Pan Continental Medals in players medaltables

Are medals won at the Pan Continental Curling Championships going in the same spot at medals won at Europeans or past Pacific-Asia championships? TracyFleuryFan (talk) 03:14, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I would honestly say this event is not notable enough for the infobox, but that's just my vote. Words in the Wind(talk) 04:04, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@Earl Andrew did add them, just wanted to get everyone on the same page. TracyFleuryFan (talk) 23:45, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

We had the Pacific-Asia medallists in the infobox, and this is basically an expanded version of that event.-- Earl Andrew - talk 04:47, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Category for Pan Continental curling champions

Who will create this (like Category:European curling champions)? -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 19:07, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Well... Done. Category:Pan Continental curling champions -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 16:54, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Move Kate Hogan back to Kate Cameron?

Seems as though she changed back, Scotties jacket and media guide both say Cameron. Social medias say Cameron as well... TracyFleuryFan (talk) 06:42, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. The media guide doesn't even mention a spouse, which indicates that it's likely the marriage didn't last long.-- Earl Andrew - talk 15:05, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Who knows about official resources of Chinese Curling Association?

Hi all. Today I was wondered (when makes in ru-Wiki article about Chinese national mixed doubles wheelchair team) that official site of Chinese Curling Association (curling.org.cn) was closed in the middle of 2021 (last web-archieved version is here (March 7, 2021). In WCF Members list only their Twitter is shown (https://twitter.com/CurlingChina ; last twit from 2018)... and nothing more (nor Facebook, Instagram, Baidu, any site or something else for who interested "what are doing now in Chinese national curling world?"). Who knows something about (maybe someone in WCF or CurlingZone)? -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 22:46, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Someone listed the results on the 2022-23 curling season page with references. That might be a good place to start.-- Earl Andrew - talk 04:47, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! I didn't seen that source (user group "Curling Pie" in Weibo social net) before. I will try to connect with "someone" (and ask Peja Lindholm - he is a coach of Chinese national teams). -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 12:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:56, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Who knows about toolforge.org ?

Service toolforge.org (and one of useful tools on it, "Missing topics", https://missingtopics.toolforge.org/ ) not running from yesterday's morning, answer is only ""503 Service Not Available". Who knows why? -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 11:20, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

2023–24 curling season started

Look at 2023–24 curling season -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 12:57, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Major RfC on capitalization of all our articles

I thought this was a done deal back in this 2022 RFC but obviously not. A handful of editors did another rfc with no sports projects input at all. And it's being challenged because we just noticed it. This could affect almost every single tennis and Olympic article we have, and goodness know how many other sports. Some may have already been moved it you weren't watching the article. And not just the article titles will be affected but all the player bios that link to the articles. Sure the links would be piped to the right place if thousands of articles moved, but if the wording in a bio still said 2023 Wimbledon Championships – Men's singles or Swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics – Men's 200 metre backstroke that would likely need to be changed by hand. There is also talk of removing the ndash completely.

Perhaps this is what sports projects want and perhaps not. Either way I certainly don't want projects ill-informed as the last RfC was handled. Express your thoughts at the following rfc. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:06, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Floor Curling started globally (with help of WCF)

World Curling to promote floor curling globally (WCF, news, 5 January 2024). As I can see, FC not present on Wikipedia anyway. -- Alexey Gustow (talk) 19:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@Алексей Густов, start a draft or use your sandbox and start working on the article. When you feel it's ready for mainspace, request a review and someone will go over the article and say what can be improved or give the green light to move it over to mainspace. You can also ask for help as you're working on the draft if you need help improving it. The main takeaway is to be bold and get started on the article. Oh and just remember, if it's in draft and no longer being worked on, it will be deleted. But I'm sure you know that. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 00:54, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Montana's Brier listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Montana's Brier to be moved to The Brier. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 05:17, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

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How should medals be ordered?

There's this IP that keeps changing medals from ordered by year to order by how good they are. Since now some of the articles are one way and some are the other, which way should we choose Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 11:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Medals should be ordered by placement first, then by year. The IP is correct. -- Earl Andrew - talk 13:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Jennifer Jones to GA?

I've been pretty busy the last few years... but since Jennifer Jones has retired from women's curling, would folks in this WikiProject be interested in working together to get that article to Good Article status (like we did for Rachel Homan a few years back)? Mostly expansion and references needed, and I could work on a stats table. Allthegoldmedals (talk) 23:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm down if you've got the time. Though, I think my next focus will be around the Broomgate controversy as I follow along with the new podcast about. We definitely need an article on that.-- Earl Andrew - talk 13:23, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't have the time to take on a significant majority of the work to get to GA, but if you and/or others in this group are able to pitch in then I could definitely find the time to contribute. Good idea on Broomgate, too. Allthegoldmedals (talk) 15:36, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Stats table added to Jennifer Jones (curler), missing a few possibly sourceable stats and refs so anyone feel free to add to it if you find anything. I can work on expanding some of the article prose content in the coming days. Allthegoldmedals (talk) 20:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll see if I can find some sources. -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:00, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Shoutout to @TracyFleuryFan: for adding a bunch of info! Sorry I've been on and off having time to edit. I'm thinking the article looks good enough to put up for nomination – anyone have anything else they wanted to do before we do that? Allthegoldmedals (talk) 00:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Happy to help! I think the 2010-13 section still needs to be updated a bit but other than that I think it is good. TracyFleuryFan (talk) 03:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Added some info and refs there and nominated the article. Feel free to add/change anything while we wait for a reviewer, of course. Allthegoldmedals (talk) 13:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Swiss names

I noticed with the streams from the Baden Masters that a lot of Swiss players are now going by hyphenated names (Benoit Schwarz-van Berkel, Romano Keller-Meier, Pablo Lachat-Couchepin). Wondering if the titles of their pages should be changed to reflect this? TracyFleuryFan (talk) 04:02, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, we have to abide by Wikipedia:RS and WP:COMMONNAME. At this point, I think only Benoit Schwarz (van Berkel) qualifies for a move, as most of the media was referring to him by his married name, and so is CurlingZone (though, notably not World Curling, yet). For the others, I've only noticed they changed their names on their jerseys, but nowhere else. -- Earl Andrew - talk 13:22, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

https://livescores.worldcurling.org/wmcc/aspnet/teamdetail?EventID=1&TeamID=18 World Curling has this listed for WMCC in April. Also, CurlingZone has changed Romano Meier to Romano Keller-Meier. Just wondering if this is enough for a move? TracyFleuryFan (talk) 21:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I won't oppose any move myself, especially considering if they were women, there wouldn't even be a debate. I do know that Benoit's article should definitely be moved at this point. Keller-Meier hasn't been in the news recently, so technically it's probably too early to make a decision. -- Earl Andrew - talk 13:42, 21 August 2024 (UTC)