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Hatnote to explain pronouns

I think we would benefit from a hatnote on articles about drag queens. I have created {{Drag queen pronouns}} to do this.

Here is the format for Chi Chi DeVayne:

{{Drag queen pronouns|Davenport|he|DeVayne|she}}

Which yields: User:Coffeeandcrumbs/Template:Drag queen pronouns

It also works for someone that prefers non-binary pronouns, using Sasha Velour (for lack of a better example):

{{Drag queen pronouns|Steinberg|they|Velour|she}}

Which yields: User:Coffeeandcrumbs/Template:Drag queen pronouns

Armadillopteryx and others, what do you think?--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 17:50, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Coffeeandcrumbs, Thanks for bringing to our attention. I do wonder if this should be shared with a wider audience than just WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race, though. There are hundreds of articles about queens unrelated to this television series. I'm open to wording changes as other editors see fit, but I like this idea generally. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:53, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps post a note at WikiProject LGBT studies? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:56, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Coffeeandcrumbs, I like the idea and also agree with Another Believer that drag queen articles outside the scope of this project would also benefit from it. Armadillopteryx 17:57, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Armadillopteryx and Another Believer, to be honest, this is well outside my area of interest. Would either of you be willing to take over? I can help with editing the template but I am not familiar enough with the subject to start a big discussion on how to treat pronouns in such articles. I do notice that Wikipedia talk:Gender-neutral language may be the best place for this discussion with notices at the LGBT studies Wikiproject and other places.

BTW, I have also created {{Drag king pronouns}}, and the more general {{Multiple pronouns}} which allows for either with the first parameter making it interchangeable between drag queen and drag king. It could be expanded to deal with more and more outcomes if necessary.

I will add documentation all the templates soon. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: Thanks for the templates. When they're ready for sharing, I can post them at the relevant WikiProjects/talk pages. Armadillopteryx 21:16, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Armadillopteryx, Thanks for volunteering. I'm so glad members of this WikiProject are willing to go above and beyond to help make the encyclopedia better outside our scope. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:18, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Armadillopteryx, documentation has been added. I also went ahead and added it the hatnote to Chi Chi DeVayne as an implemented example you can use. Ping me in your discussion or RfC (that is, if you feel an RfC is necessary). --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 21:02, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: Thank you, this is wonderful. I don't personally see the need for an RfC, so I will just share the template on the relevant pages. If anyone who sees it is inclined to start an RfC, they're obviously free to do so. I'll ping you. Aside from Wikipedia talk:Gender-neutral language and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies, are there any places that you or Another Believer think it would be prudent to share it? Armadillopteryx 23:25, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

I alerted Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style to this discussion. I'm not a fan of mismatch pronouns in our articles or mismatch names unless stating a different name at some part to avoid confusion...such as stating a woman's maiden name when stating that she married her husband while noting her husband by name. I think that the mismatch approach is not ideal and is unnecessary. But, yes, a hatnote explaining the mismatch route would help. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 04:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I was also going to alert Wikipedia talk:Hatnote, but a different editor beat me to it. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 04:33, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Full names

I saw the above template was added to the Chi Chi DeVayne article. I am still thinking about some possible changes to the template's wording, but I have one comment in the meantime. I think we should display full names in the template. In the case of Chi Chi, simply displaying "Davenport" and "DeVayne" is perhaps intuitive enough, but many drag queens have pseudo-last names which I do not think should be used. For example, I don't think we should ever refer to Detox Icunt by "Icunt". Does this make sense? I went ahead and added full names to the Chi Chi DeVayne article. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:15, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

@Another Believer: I think we can just take this on a case-by-case basis and do whatever makes the most sense for each article—the template is flexible enough to allow us to input the names manually. I lead toward your thinking that full names will make the most sense in the majority of cases, though. Armadillopteryx 23:28, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Order

I just thought of something else. Chi Chi DeVayne is notable as a female persona. For this reason, should the template display she/her first, then clarify why male pronouns are also used within the article? Leading with the subject's birth name, which is not how the subject is known, is a bit confusing. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:37, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

The template technically has no preference. I left it up to editorial discretion. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 21:51, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Coffeeandcrumbs, Yes, thanks for clarifying, I guess I'm just thinking out loud for when we share this proposal with a wider audience. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:11, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

I support using the more notable name first. Armadillopteryx 23:28, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Wording

Ok, sorry, another thing. Re: the wording "This article about a drag queen uses a different pronoun when referring to the subject in drag", some entertainers prefer to be called "drag performers". I wonder if we should use a gender neutral term here, and simply link to "Drag (clothing)" instead of "Drag queen"? Also, are there any other wording adjustment to consider such as "This article about a drag queen uses different pronouns when referring to the subject in and out of drag", or similar? I'm mostly just trying to make sure we're using the most inclusive language possible. --Another Believer _(Talk) 21:40, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

This: {{Multiple pronouns|performer|Steinberg|they|Velour|she}}

Yields:

This article about a drag performer uses a different pronoun when referring to the subject in drag. They/them are used to refer to Steinberg, and she/her are used to refer to Velour.

--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 21:57, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Coffeeandcrumbs, I like this version (and the added customization it allows). I have a minor grammatical quibble: using "or" between the pronouns technically keeps the subject singular, meaning it should read: "he" or "him" is used ... (and likewise for the other gender variants). My preferred solution would be to simply replace "or" with a slash, yielding "he"/"him" are used ..., or to replace "or" with "and", yielding "he" and "him" are used .... Armadillopteryx 23:33, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

My preference is for a slash to keep it similar to the common terms he / him, she / her, and they / them, which are familiar to many when speaking about gender identity. It was Wugapodes who changed it, citing MOS:SLASH. I wonder what they think. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 23:40, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Coffeeandcrumbs, I also slightly favor the slash—as you say, that form is in very common usage when discussing gender pronouns. And I would argue that it's not us synthesizing that convention when we use it, unlike the examples at MOS:SLASH. Let's see what Wugapodes says. Armadillopteryx 23:42, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

I thought the slash looked weird in context, but I'll survive if we go back to it. If we go back to the slash, I would recommend using an unspaced slash since that's (1) how I've seen it most commonly written and (2) closest to the guidance at MOS:SLASH (An unspaced slash may be used...where a slash occurs in an expression or abbreviation widely used outside Wikipedia...). — Wug·a·po·des​ 04:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done. Since quotation marks are incorrect and it should be in italics (MOS:WORDSASWORDS), and because of WP:ITHAT, I have used {{Noitalic}}. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 05:34, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

• Comment. I’m not opposed to a hat note but I think the current version is way too long as is. It might be more useful to omit the reference to drag altogether—especially as many do not see themselves as doing drag—and focus instead on that the article uses different pronouns for different phases of the person’s life. Gleeanon409 (talk) 05:59, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

This hatnote is for people who simultaneously have one gender in drag and another out of drag, though. We wouldn't use this template for someone like Peppermint or Carmen Carrera. I think two brief sentences is a good length, too. Armadillopteryx 06:05, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

What about:

This article uses she/her to refer to Chi Chi DeVayne and he/him to refer to Shavion Davenport.

Short, simple and can be used for a variety of articles besides those about drag performers. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 08:21, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Shorter seems better, and more likely it will be read. Gleeanon409 (talk) 09:16, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Either way works for me. Armadillopteryx 13:04, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done. Now {{Drag queen pronouns}} and {{Drag king pronouns}} are redirects to {{Multiple pronouns}}, which moving forward only accepts 4 arguments to execute. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 16:13, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: Thanks! The template seems to be displaying with a comma before the "and" in the Chi Chi DeVayne article; could that be removed? Armadillopteryx 20:35, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I went ahead and made that change; is that okay? Armadillopteryx 20:48, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Coffeeandcrumbs and Gleeanon409, just a thought: since the hatnote is the very first thing that a reader will see, they won't necessarily yet know both of the subject's names and may be confused about what seems to be a reference to two people. What about saying the following?

This article about a drag queen uses she/her to refer to Chi Chi DeVayne and he/him to refer to Shavion Davenport.

That's still shorter than before but gives an indication up front that we're talking about a single person with two identities. Armadillopteryx 22:03, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I would prefer This article uses different pronouns to represent different gender identities of the subject. Gleeanon409 (talk) 07:00, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I think that's too vague; specifying the name–pronoun combinations explicitly is much clearer to everyone. Not all readers are familiar with gender identity-related issues anyway, and for those who aren't, that hatnote would mean very little. Even to me, that wording sounds more like it's referring to a genderfluid individual who changes genders in their personal life; it doesn't sound like a drag queen, or someone who has a personal and a professional identity of different genders. Armadillopteryx 19:00, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Armadillopteryx, I could make Gleeanon409's suggestion the default if no parameters are provided. Technically speaking it would be if |1= is not provided. This could be useful in some situations. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 04:44, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: Sure, having an additional option wouldn't hurt so long as it doesn't replace the others. So, just to be clear, does this mean there will again be five arguments, and the first could be either king, queen or null? And the king or queen version with the name and pronoun arguments would produce text like what I suggested above (or like what you had before deleting the first sentence), while leaving all arguments null would yield Gleeanon's proposed sentence? Armadillopteryx 06:10, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Armadillopteryx, I can make anything work. But I do not want to spend any more time on the template until a phrasing is agreed upon. Please hold a formal or informal RfC to decide exactly what wording we want to use. One for the default where no names are provided and another with names included. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 06:17, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Workshop

Can we hammer out wording we agree on for the hatnote so that Coffeeandcrumbs can finalize the template? Courtesy pings to Another Believer and Gleeanon409. Here is my suggestion:

• The first argument of the hatnote can be either queen, king or null.
• Each case would produce the following:

• queen → This article about a drag queen uses a different pronoun for the subject out of drag. She/her refers to Chi Chi DeVayne, and he/him refers to Zavion Davenport.
• king → This article about a drag king uses a different pronoun for the subject out of drag. He/him refers to Elvis Herselvis, and she/her refers to Leigh Crow.
• [null] → This article uses different pronouns for different gender identities of the subject.

Thoughts or suggestions? Armadillopteryx 06:57, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I think the first label should be null or fill in the blank (entertainer, performer, dragster, dragmonster, king, queen, fairy, princess, monarch, etc.)

Then likely fill in the blanks for various pronouns as well. Gleeanon409 (talk) 08:00, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Right, sorry if my wording is unclear. The template would still have five arguments, the last four being name–pronoun–name–pronoun. The only thing that needs to be settled is what the wording will be in each case. Armadillopteryx 13:31, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Armadillopteryx, is there a reason you have returned the first two to the longer versions? You semi-long version was not bad, IMO. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 16:18, 25 August 2020 (UTC) I have placed notices in a few the projects we have previously mentioned. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 16:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Coffeeandcrumbs, after thinking about it more, I decided I prefer the longer version. It explains why being a drag performer involves a second set of pronouns, and it also indicates what the less familiar name is (i.e. that it's just the subject out of drag). Most people, I assume, read the hatnote before the article and may not already know the less notable name. Armadillopteryx 16:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I just noticed that you cut out "are used to" and changed "refer" to "refers". NICE! That shaved a lot of characters and it should fit on one line on most screens. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 16:52, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: Thanks! Glad you like it. I also changed "when referring to" to "for" to cut out a few more characters. Armadillopteryx 17:15, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Gleeanon409, do we really need all these options? I was hoping we keep it to [null], queen, king, and the general performer and entertainer. I have created a redirect for drag entertainer but there are no corresponding articles (or redirects) for dragster, dragmonster, fairy, princess, and monarch, which will make writing a template very complicated. What do you want those to link to? Can we do without them? --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 17:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I think in addition to null, king and queen, maybe a fill in the blank is available for profession/title, and a blank for pronouns if non-normative. Gleeanon409 (talk) 17:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Gleeanon409, I am sorry but no. Unless you can show me an example of where that would be applicable, I am not going to create an opening for any random thing an editor wants to add to a hatnote. That is asking for abuse and vandalism. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 05:24, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Deletion

This template has been nominated for deletion. See Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August 26#Template:Multiple pronouns. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 05:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I voted to delete the template. I think it would be better to obtain consensus among a wide variety of editors for a template like this before starting the page. I do not think there was ever a widespread consensus for such a template. I do not think this page may even be the right place to discuss creating such a template; maybe work on consensus in the Wikipedia:Village pump proposals or idea lab sections next time? Aasim 15:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Let's continue

I have moved the template to my user space because the debate at TfD was pointless. Delete or not the outcome would have been the same: to move to an RfC to see if we can use such a hatnote.

Armadillopteryx, if you want to continue developing this template and seeing if we can get to a presentable version we can offer at an RfC, I am available. The templates can be found at User:Coffeeandcrumbs/Template:Multiple pronouns, User:Coffeeandcrumbs/Template:Drag queen pronouns, and User:Coffeeandcrumbs/Template:Drag king pronouns. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 03:10, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: I'm happy to keep working on this. Before the TfD, I had understood that we would finalize the wording here, start an RfC on it, and post notices about the RfC at Wikipedia talk:Gender-neutral language, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies and possibly elsewhere. Is that still the game plan? If so, are you happy with the current wording? I noticed that in the midst of the TfD, you updated the template to reflect my suggestion on this talk page, so I'm happy with the present version myself. Armadillopteryx 06:18, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Armadillopteryx, I am fine with it. Just make sure to choose a very public place to start the RfC. I would suggest at Wikipedia talk:Gender-neutral language --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 06:33, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: Sure thing. Before we move on, I just thought of another phrasing option that I like. (It's three whole characters shorter!)

This article about a drag queen uses two sets of pronouns. She/her refers to Chi Chi DeVayne (in drag), and he/him refers to Zavion Davenport (out of drag).

Is this better, worse or the same as the current version? Armadillopteryx 07:35, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't know. the terms "in drag" and "out of drag" sound weird and not Wikipedia-ish to me. But that may be because I am not familiar with the subject area. If you think those are normal phrases to use in a formal setting, I am fine with it. It is very clear and direct. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 07:40, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

BTW, don't bother editing the template but you can if you want to. The manually written version is probably enough for an RfC.

Another thing that might help is to have two different RfCs.

1. Should articles about drag queens/kings use two sets of pronouns just as The New York Times does in this article?
2. Should a hatnote be place at the top of articles to note the use of two sets of pronouns?

This way, you separate the two issues and stop people from being bigoted but using the hatnote issue as a cover. While we are supposed to AGF, I suspect a few the oppositions had less that good faith intentions. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 07:50, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea at all. In fact, higher up on this page (#Should we have an RfC re: pronoun use in drag queen biographies?), we had started drafting an RfC for the first item you mentioned. I agree it might be useful to separate them, as I had some of the same suspicions you did. Armadillopteryx 08:13, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Coffeeandcrumbs, those phrases are standard terminology. Here are some examples from RS:

• Priyanka showed herself to be a true star both in and out of drag. [1]
• Courtney was the runner-up on the most recent season of Dancing With the Stars Australia, where she danced in drag with a male professional partner. [2]
• Tammie, who was known for her Old Hollywood aesthetic, has appeared out of drag, as Keith Glen Schubert, in commercials for McDonald's. (same source as above)
• And now, the music video is here, featuring both Alaska and Kandy in and out of drag. [3]
• How does he differentiate between who he is in and out of drag? [4]

Anyway, if you are okay with this new phrasing I've proposed, we can give others the chance to weigh in, and if there are no objections, I'll draft the RfC wording. I will then post it here for input and modifications before opening the RfC. Armadillopteryx 08:08, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: Just a heads-up that someone else started this discussion about drag queen pronouns at the MOS talk page. Armadillopteryx 06:27, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

RfC drafts

Comments are welcome on the following drafts of RfC text. One is for the question of how to handle pronouns in drag queen biographies, and the other is on whether the hatnote is the best way to clarify the convention for readers. (Courtesy ping: Coffeeandcrumbs) Armadillopteryx 08:24, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

First draft of pronoun RfC

Draft and comments

Draft text (copied and slightly modified from #Should we have an RfC re: pronoun use in drag queen biographies?): Wikipedia contains several hundred biographies of notable drag queens and kings (see Category:Drag queens and Category:Drag kings). These are individuals who are notable as a stage persona that most often has a different name and/or gender from the performer. Reliable sources typically report on these subjects' careers using the name and pronouns associated with the drag persona. Some RS also use the drag name and pronouns when discussing subjects' personal lives [5][6], while others do not [7][8]. Which of the following describes the most appropriate use of names and pronouns in drag performers' Wikipedia articles? Option 1: The subject's drag name and drag pronouns should be used throughout the article, with the legal name only mentioned in the infobox, the lead, and either the Early life or Personal life section. Option 2: The subject's drag name and drag pronouns should be used in sections related to the subject's notability and work as the drag persona (e.g. in the lead and in the Career section). The subject's legal name and out-of-drag pronouns should be used in other sections (e.g. Early life, Personal life). Option 3: The subject's legal name and out-of-drag pronouns should be used throughout the article, with the drag name only mentioned as a stage name in the infobox, the lead and the Career section. Further questions: Should one of the above options apply uniformly across drag queen articles, or are there conditions under which one option might be preferable to another? What might those conditions be? Armadillopteryx 08:24, 8 September 2020 (UTC) Comments I don't think I like "while others do not". You should spell out that those sources use two sets of names and pronouns, switching back and forth, as necessary, when describing the persona in drag and the performer in their personal and public life out of drag. (Some of these performers have notable out-of-drag lives.) I also don't like the "legal name". We don't know for sure it is their "legal name". It is better to say: "The name and pronouns the subject uses when out of drag should be used when referring to the subject out of drag (e.g. Early life, Personal life).". Do not ask the "Further questions". All rules on Wikipedia have exceptions. State something like: This is a general guideline. As with anything on Wikipedia, well-thought-out exceptions based on consensus will be permitted" If you are going to include "notability" and "in the lead" to Option 2, I would oppose all 3 options. I mostly work on articles about people that have already died and raising articles to GA and FA. When expanding the lead, I would be very limited if forced to use only in-drag pronouns and names. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 16:08, 8 September 2020 (UTC) @Coffeeandcrumbs: I mostly agree with these proposed changes—thank you. After others have more time to weigh in, I'll make a new draft. Armadillopteryx 17:19, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Second draft of pronoun RfC

Updated draft text (reflects changes from Coffeeandcrumbs' comments in the previous section and a few tweaks of my own):

Wikipedia contains several hundred biographies of notable drag queens and kings (see Category:Drag queens and Category:Drag kings). These are individuals who are notable as a stage persona that most often has a different name and/or gender from the name and/or gender the performer uses and identifies with in private life.

Reliable sources typically report on these subjects' careers using the name and pronouns associated with the drag persona. Some RS also use the drag name and pronouns when discussing subjects' personal lives [9][10], while other RS use the drag name and pronouns only to discuss subjects' work, switching to the out-of-drag name and pronouns when covering other aspects of their lives [11][12]. Rarely, if ever, do current RS cover subjects' careers using their out-of-drag names or pronouns.

Which of the following describes the most appropriate use of names and pronouns in drag performers' Wikipedia articles?

• Option 1: The subject's drag name and drag pronouns should be used throughout the article, with the legal name only mentioned in the infobox, the lead, and either the Early life or Personal life section.
• Option 2: The subject's drag name and drag pronouns should be used in sections related to the subject's work as the drag persona (e.g. in the lead and in the Career section). The subject's legal name and out-of-drag pronouns should be used in other sections (e.g. Early life, Personal life).
• Option 3: The subject's legal name and out-of-drag pronouns should be used throughout the article, with the drag name only mentioned as a stage name in the infobox, the lead and the Career section.

The option that gains consensus will become a guideline that reflects the default approach to be taken in drag performer articles. As usual, well-reasoned, case-by-case exceptions may be determined via discussion and consensus.

Armadillopteryx 09:57, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Comments

Please place comments on the second draft in this subsection. Armadillopteryx 09:57, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Draft for hatnote RfC

To be discussed pending outcome of pronoun RfC

Wording for this will obviously depend on the outcome of the above-mentioned RfC. If its outcome is to use our present convention, I propose something like: Wikipedia contains several hundred biographies of notable drag queens and kings (see Category:Drag queens and Category:Drag kings). These are individuals who are notable as a stage persona that most often has a different name and/or gender from the performer. In our biographies, we use the subject's drag name and pronouns when discussing their career, and we use the subject's private name and pronouns when discussing their private life. Should a hatnote of the following form be used to communicate this information to readers at the top of such articles? This article about a drag queen uses two sets of pronouns. She/her refers to Chi Chi DeVayne (in drag), and he/him refers to Zavion Davenport (out of drag). Further questions: Should any modifications be made to the hatnote's wording? Armadillopteryx 08:24, 8 September 2020 (UTC) Comments Let's not even discuss this until the above RfC is settled. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 16:09, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Divina De Campo

The article for Divina De Campo is at Divina de Campo (with a lower case d). Her wikipedia page uses an upper case D (Devina De Campo) Should the article be moved?Naraht (talk) 07:52, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Most of the sources in her article use the capital D, though I see at least four that use the lowercase d. Her personal Instagram uses the lowercase d, while her official website uses the capital D. It might be a toss-up. Whatever we decide, we should at least make the article consistent within itself (i.e. use only lowercase or only uppercase throughout the article). That means we need to either change the article title to uppercase or the article text to lowercase. I don't really care which one. Armadillopteryx 08:38, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

+1 ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:03, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Mostly looking for consistency. And meant to say her personal web page uses the upper case D, though the rest is true as well. Things are so confused, I wouldn't find it objectionable to actually ask her!Naraht (talk) 21:20, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Season 12 progress table edit warring.

There is currently an insane amount of edit warring happening on the Season 12 page based solely on the contestants progress section. Every time I revert it back, it gets changed within minutes by vandals. I feel like maybe the page would benefit from protection? Billwebster91 (talk) 21:22, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Probably worth mentioning I have left messages on a few people’s talk pages to no avail. Billwebster91 (talk) 21:22, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Billwebster91, I've requested page protection. See the above discussion as well. We must do something about the progress table edit warring. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:28, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

There was a suggestion to create a template and then said template would be indefinitely protected. No way to edit/change then :) ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 10:27, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I think that’s probably the best way forward Billwebster91 (talk) 15:23, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Billwebster91, I've already shared this above, but FYI, I've asked for page protection once again. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:06, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Another point about web accessibility.

If I understand it correctly, this shouldn't be on the previous, locked discussion. This is the current progress table for All Stars 5:

Progress of contests including rank/position in each episode

Contestant	1	2	3	4	5
Alexis Mateo	HIGH	SAFE	SAFE	SAFE	BTM5
Blair St. Clair	SAFE	HIGH	HIGH	SAFE	BTM5
Jujubee	SAFE	HIGH	WIN	HIGH	BTM5
Miz Cracker	HIGH	SAFE	SAFE	WIN	BTM5
Shea Couleé	SAFE	WIN	BTM3	SAFE	WIN
India Ferrah	WIN	BTM3	BTM3	BTM2	ELIM
Mayhem Miller	BTM2	SAFE	HIGH	ELIM
Mariah Paris Balenciaga	SAFE	BTM3	ELIM
Ongina	LOW	ELIM
Derrick Barry	ELIM

  The contestant won the challenge and won the Lip Sync against the Lip Sync Assassin.

  The contestant won the challenge and tied in the Lip Sync against the Lip Sync Assassin.

  The contestant won the challenge, but lost the Lip Sync against the Lip Sync Assassin.

  The contestant received positive critiques and was ultimately declared safe.

  The contestant received critiques but was ultimately declared safe.

  The contestant received negative critiques but was ultimately declared safe.

  The contestant was up for elimination.

  The contestant was eliminated.

According MOS:COLOR, no information should be conveyed using only color. If I understand correctly, this table doesn't comply, as it uses three different color combinations along with the same text ("WIN") depending on whether the queen won, lost or tied the lipsync. (Combined, at most, with bold text for win and tied, and regular text for lost). What kind of symbology could be used to make this more accessible?

(The voting table has similar or worse problems, should it be part of this discussion or would it be better to take it one table at the time?) Not A Superhero (talk) 05:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

You are correct †Not A Superhero, I totally forget/didn't realise. I've done another example below. It is much simpler and reduces the emphasis on colour. I will admit it is quite different, but based on the accessibility guides about colour and simplicity this is the best I can come up with. Also to show how the full table would look, I used Allstars 3 as it was nice and complete.

Progress of contests including rank/position in each episode

Contestant	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
Trixie Mattel	Safe	Safe	Safe	Bottom 3	Top 2	Bottom 3	Top 2	Winner
Kennedy Davenport	Safe	Bottom 2	Winner	Bottom 2	Safe	Bottom 2	Bottom 2	Runner-up
BeBe Zahara Benet	Safe	Safe	Safe	Safe	Winner	Top 2	Bottom 2	Eliminated
Shangela	Safe	Winner	Safe	Winner	Bottom 2	Bottom 3	Winner	Eliminated
Morgan McMichaels	Eliminated					Returned	Eliminated
BenDeLaCreme	Winner	Top 2	Top 2	Winner	Safe	Winner
Aja	Top 2	Safe	Bottom 3	Safe	Eliminated
Chi Chi DeVayne	Bottom 2	Safe	Bottom 3	Eliminated
Milk	Safe	Safe	Eliminated
Thorgy Thor	Safe	Eliminated

  The contestant won RuPaul's Drag Race All Stars.

  The contestant was the runner-up.

  The contestant was eliminated.

  The contestant was one of the bottom queens of the week.

  The contestant was one of the two top all stars, if the box says "winner" then the contestant also won the lip sync for their legacy.

  The previous contestants were given an opportunity to return to the competition, ffter BenDeLaCreme chose to leave the competition, she was allowed to choose a contestant to return.

Not A Superhero What do you reckon? @≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:45, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

This example is much better. I support its use. nyxærös 14:51, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

While I think we do need to bring all the tables up to the wiki standards on accessibility, this example is lacking information and is not uniform with other Drag Race pages. Checking all the guidelines, I believe adding symbols and footnotes, so as to not have color be the only differentiating factor, is what is necessary and a simple solution oculd be to change the table to this.:

Progress of contestants including rank/position in each episode

Contestant	1	2	3	4	52	62	72	8
Shea Couleé	SAFE	WIN+	BTM3	SAFE	WIN+	HIGH	HIGH	Winner
Jujubee	SAFE	HIGH	WIN−	HIGH	HIGH	HIGH	LOW	Runner-up
Miz Cracker	HIGH	SAFE	SAFE*	WIN+1	LOW	WIN−	WIN+	Runner-up
Blair St. Clair	SAFE	HIGH	HIGH	SAFE	LOW	LOW	ELIM	Guest
Alexis Mateo	HIGH	SAFE	SAFE*	SAFE*	HIGH	ELIM		Guest
India Ferrah	WIN−	BTM3	BTM3	BTM2	ELIM			Guest
Mayhem Miller	BTM2	SAFE	HIGH	ELIM				Guest
Mariah Paris Balenciaga	SAFE	BTM3	ELIM					Guest
Ongina	LOW	ELIM						Guest
Derrick Barry	ELIM							Guest

  Winner: The contestant won RuPaul's Drag Race All Stars.

  Runner-up: The contestant was the runner-up.

  WIN+: The contestant won the challenge and won the Lip Sync against the Lip Sync Assassin.

  WIN−:The contestant won the challenge, but lost the Lip Sync against the Lip Sync Assassin.

  HIGH: The contestant received positive critiques.

  SAFE*:The contestant received critiques.

  SAFE:The contestant was declared safe without receiving critiques.

  LOW: The contestant received negative critiques.

  BTM: The contestant was up for elimination after being named as one of the bottom queens of the week.

  ELIM: The contestant was eliminated.

1. ^ Miz Cracker and Morgan McMichaels were both declared as winners of the week 4 Lip Sync.
2. ^ In episode 5, RuPaul announced that for the remainder of the season, all contestants not deemed Top All Star of the Week would be up for elimination, irregardless of their critiques.

What do you think? 2001:268:C01E:2D9D:5061:6EDD:9570:38DC (talk) 17:54, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

References

Protecting contestant progress charts

Unresolved

I'm so tired of changes to the contestant progress charts across RPDR articles. Can we please revisit the discussion to somehow protect these charts?

How about putting the charts on subpages, protecting them, and then transcluding them into the season articles? Wouldn't this cut down on much of the edit warring and vandalism? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:43, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

That's a great idea. I definitely think that could do wonders with preventing vandalism. Scootersfood (talk) 17:25, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, are you referring to the template approach in #Another thread about tables above? However it's implemented, I support this approach. Armadillopteryx 21:12, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I also support this approach 100%, I feel it’s probably the only way to stop the warring. Billwebster91 (talk) 21:30, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Anyone know the best next step(s) here? Seems there's general support but I'm not exactly sure how to make this happen. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:35, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this was what you had in mind, but I had the idea of making the Contestant Elimination Charts their own templates, and then just protect those template pages. Maybe we can try something out with the Season 1 chart. Scootersfood (talk) 23:04, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Scootersfood, So, move the chart to RuPaul's Drag Race (season 1)/Contestant progress, then lock this page and transclude to RuPaul's Drag Race (season 1)? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:25, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Why not just use {{Drag Race progress table}} and {{Drag Race contestant table}}, which Wugapodes made and presented above in #Another thread about tables? Armadillopteryx 16:33, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Armadillopteryx, I'm fine using whatever templates on the subpages, but I'm focused more on how we name the subpages consistently and transclude and protect them appropriately. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:05, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

As soon as page protection was removed from the Season 12 article last night, the edit warring and vandalism to the progress table has instantly started again. Is there any way we can move forward with this? As it’s never going to stop otherwise. And that goes for all the drag race pages. Billwebster91 (talk) 21:59, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

+1000, so tired of this. I've re-submitted page protection for the season 12 article. In doing so, I pleaded for help and directed eyes to this WikiProject talk page. Fingers crossed ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:03, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I've submitted another comment asking for help over at the requests for page protection page. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:05, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Importance assessment criteria

I notice that only three contestant articles are listed as high-importance to this project: Shangela, Courtney Act and Willam Belli. This strikes me as weird and arbitrary: none of these three won a season, and all of the winners' articles are ranked as less important. What criteria are we using for this? Armadillopteryx^talk 18:37, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't think there are any criteria. This page is the best to discuss. I'd generally say Main Article >= Seasons >= Winners >= Other Contestants. I'm not sure where on there to include DragCons (though I hope DragCon UK gets moved mainspace prior to it actually happening).Naraht (talk) 19:18, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Naraht, Yeah, I could see us having winners as "high" importance, but I'm also fine with keeping all contestants as "mid", and keeping "high" for main article, seasons, RuPaul, perhaps some lists, etc. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:39, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, I'd drop most of the non-winners (or at least non-finalists) to Low. I just have a hard time seeing Kelly Mantle or Venus D-Lite being ranked as mid. The good news is that very little is Start Class, anything lower then C-Class tends to get shifted to Draft peretyNaraht (talk) 21:07, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Naraht, I don't feel strongly about med vs. low, but I think we should be consistent across types of articles (seasons, contestants, events, etc.) I know User:Nikki311 did much of the original assessment, so they may care to weigh in if they return to editing. Otherwise, I think we should be bold and propose top, high, med, low parameters here. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:17, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Parameter proposal

Just to get a discussion started, what would people feel about the following categorization?

• Top-importance articles
  • RuPaul's Drag Race
  • RuPaul's Drag Race All Stars
  • RuPaul
  • Michelle Visage
• High-importance articles
  • Season articles
  • Carson Kressley, Santino Rice, Ross Mathews
  • Series (not season) articles of the international variants
  • Winner articles (including of international series)
  • Articles on non-winners involved in key/historic events on the show, who are often referred to as "iconic" and considered integral to the show's history, and/or who continue to have widespread influence over the show's following (e.g. Willam, BenDeLaCreme, Katya, Courtney Act, Manila Luzon, Adore Delano, Shangela)
• Mid-importance articles
  • Season pages of international variants
  • All DragCon articles
  • RuPaul's Drag Race: Untucked
  • RuPaul's Drag U
  • Snatch Game
  • List of awards and nominations received by RuPaul's Drag Race
  • Non-winning contestants who presently still receive a lot of coverage/have large followings/generally have not fallen out of the spotlight but are not quite as influential/followed as those listed above (e.g. Kameron Michaels, Laganja Estranja, Raven, Milk, Blair St. Clair, Jujubee)
  • Maybe Werq the World (if not here, then low-importance)
• Low-importance articles
  • All episode articles listed at Template:RuPaul's Drag Race
  • RuPaul's Drag Race Live!
  • All Christmas Queens articles
  • RuPaul's Celebrity Drag Race
  • RuPaul's Drag Race Holi-slay Spectacular
  • Non-winning contestants that don't get much coverage at present/don't have large followings/aren't even mentioned or referenced much on the show (e.g. Venus D-Lite, Mrs. Kasha Davis, Tempest DuJour, Jessica Wild, Kimora Blac)

Thoughts on this? Armadillopteryx^talk 16:09, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

First thought, I'm glad someone went through and made suggestions. At most, I'll suggest a few tweeks.

1. Every queen who has been in the Final is at least Mid-importance
2. Series not Season gets confusing due to the way the UK does it, Drag Race UK is a "Series to an american", but it will have Series 1 and Series 2. Maybe Each international Version vs. Series/Season.

Naraht (talk) 17:52, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

I agree with point 1. For the sake of clarity in point 2, I am using American English, so I mean "series" and "season" according to their US English definitions. Naturally, this means anything I describe as "season" corresponds to "series" in UK English. Armadillopteryx^talk 23:23, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Also the including of Tempest DuJour who is a redirect to their season. All of these redirects (queen to season) should be included in the importance but with importance = No. (That's apparently allowed)Naraht (talk) 20:00, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Sorry—didn't realize Tempest was a redirect! Armadillopteryx^talk 23:23, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Time to revisit?

The creation of the season 13 article got me thinking about this again. As a start, should we at least give all season articles equal importance? High? Armadillopteryx 21:03, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Canada's Drag Race, Season 2

Season 2 has been announced: https://ew.com/tv/canadas-drag-race-season-2-confirmed/

We might consider forking content to Canada's Drag Race (season 1) and Canada's Drag Race (season 2) when the time's right. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:47, 7 January 2021 (UTC)