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NF consistency with ESC articles

This is regarding a recent edit by @IvanScrooge98: on the PzE24 article.
Most active users will recall a discussion that happened around the 2023 contest after which prose was added to show segments including intervals and qualifiers, as per WP:NOTSTATS, which established the the current look of the Eurovision by year articles. As per the cited policy and for the same of consistency, should national final articles not be held to the same standard? — IмSтevan ^talk 20:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I would agree that per WP:PROSE there should be some description of the results of each show in prose. I don't think it should be as detailed as the recently deleted text, I think simply listing the artists qualified and not qualified without the song titles on the PzE article is all that is needed, while having a more full breakdown of the results on the Serbia in ESC 2024 article would be more appropriate given the lack of any tables related to the semi-finals there. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:16, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Had read NOTSTATS distractedly, I’ll admit. Now that I understood where the issue seems to lie, though, I still don’t think it really applies here – there is enough context and explanation for readers to be able to figure out the tables without the need to add a prose summary of what happened in each show. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 20:18, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Sims, prose listing the qualifiers is enough. After the full results are revealed, I'd also point out the winner of the semis.
Edit: To be consistent with ESC articles, the non-qualifiers should be listed as well — IмSтevan ^talk 20:21, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand why that wouldn't be relevant in that article. When a national final page exists separately, it is intended to have more detail than the country in ESC year article, with the latter article then being pared back, typically with preliminary rounds and semi-final tables removed and just a summary of those earlier aspects.

However, taking a step back, I don't believe the Pesma za Evroviziju 2024 article should exist. Historically only contests/events that have notability outside of Eurovision would be at the level of notability for a standalone article. Otherwise, as Ivan has indicated, there is a redundancy. If Pesma za Evroviziju's sole purpose and reason for existence is to select the Serbian entry, then the 2024 article should be merged to Serbia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2024. If it exists as a separate contest just with the caveat that the winner also gets to go to Eurovision, then it's typically separated. The latter is the case for the yearly Sanremo Music Festival and Melodifestivalen (which are huge events in general in their respective countries), but not for yearly Evrovidenie or Ellinikos Telikos processes (which are known as just Eurovision-related events). Grk1011 (talk) 20:25, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I tried to merge the PzE 2023 article last year and got pushback from the original author. Their point was that RTS are attempting to create a brand here, and I didn't want to start a fight so I left it. Personally I would support merging these articles, especially given there are many other longer-standing NF formats that don't have their own standalone articles either, so why should we treat Serbia and PzE any differently? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I'd argue that perhaps those other contests deserve their own articles as well, Dora being the prime example — IмSтevan ^talk 20:32, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

While the name would make a person believe it to be only a national selection, the supervisor of the contest Olivera Kovačević among other organizers insists that it's more than that and a platform for young artists to promote their music and present themselves to the Serbian public. I believe it's relevant enough to have a stand alone article — IмSтevan ^talk 20:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I suppose the main question is not about what whoever in RTS thinks about PzE, but whether it stands up again all the notability guidelines that Wikipedia is based on. WP:GNG and WP:EVENT would be the principle notability guidelines in this case. Even if I think back to previous Serbian NFs, Beovizija at one point I'm sure felt like it had the same momentum as PzE right now but it went on a long hiatus, so what's to say that PzE is not another case of recentism? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:46, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

That's maybe a (indirect) goal, but is that how it's perceived by independent sources? I would air on keeping everything together to paint the full picture. Let's also recognize that the name of the event translates to "A Song for Eurovision", so I'm not sure how that supports claims that the organizers wanted a standalone contest for young artists to promote themselves in general. Grk1011 (talk) 22:34, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

As the user who has created most of the nation-in-Eurovision and national final articles for 2024 (while not PzE), I basically followed the previous usage without thinking it through very much. But I had been thinking about this for a while and my take is actually that some selections would be better off in an independent article, chiefly for how much they clutter the general one (see Israel 2024, definitely too long IMO). In other words, there is enough information and coverage for some of them to argue they might deserve a standalone article. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 20:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Not for the first time I find myself wondering just how much content Eurovision editors want to delete. Language, translation, flags, now entire NF articles. What are we doing here? Every time I nip into talk pages it's never about building the community or building the project, it's always delete delete delete, remove remove remove. I guarantee, were I to nominate the very first ESC for deletion, some of you would support it. doktorb _words^deeds 20:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

So do you think we should just add as much trivia on the contest as possible, even stuff that is completely unsourced, original research or that goes completely against Wikipedia's rules? This is an encyclopaedia, not Guinness World Records, not some almanac of stats, and not a fan site where every single bit of Eurovision knowledge should be held. If you don't understand what Wikipedia is about then I suggest you read up on what Wikipedia is and more importantly what Wikipedia is not. We're not talking about removing NF articles, we're talking about merging articles when notability for standalone articles is not covered. Why have two mediocre articles which duplicate each other in key aspects when you can have one really good article that covers everything well? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 21:05, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I've been here for a long long time. I've never been so disheartened and dejected as an editor than seeing you taking a hacksaw to each and every article because of "Wikipedia purity".

Tomorrow morning I'll nominate ESC 1956 for deletion to prove my point. After all, radio only, no confirmed results, no notable singers, little contemporary coverage: it suits your deletionist tendencies to the bone, right? doktorb _words^deeds 22:22, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Good luck with trying to delete a good article. If anything this will probably backfire on you and raise questions around whether you're here to build a Wikipedia. I'm sorry you feel so dejected when other people challenge the status quo and question the content of articles in comparison to Wikipedia policy and guidance. I'm not trying to be a purist, what I'm trying to do is raise valid questions about the content and layout of articles, make improvements as I see them, build consensus around this when things are challenged, and make our articles better overall. I also have been here a very long time, and if you have such a problem with how I have conducted myself on here then please do raise this further, to admins or whoever, through the escalation processes that do exist. I will stand by my conduct on Wikipedia in the 15+ years that I have contributed to this site, I can admit my mistakes where I have fallen short, but believe me in no way has my conduct ever been intentionally malicious to anyone on here! Sims2aholic8 (talk) 22:47, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Doktorbuk, you have been here for many years and I've always appreciated your feedback. However, Sims' tone aside, I do echo a lot of their sentiment. It's not "Eurovision editors" wanting to delete things, its editors trying to make sure we are aligned with Wikipedia's guidelines to create quality, dependable articles, and spread knowledge of the contest. We are all trying to build an encyclopedia here, but if there is a policy in place (not a preference) then I don't know how we can just say meh, don't care. It's tough to bring articles to GA status (and FA!) and, if anything, it's been invaluable for editors who have learned what goes and what doesn't to bring that knowledge back and spread the wealth. It only helps save frustration in the end. Grk1011 (talk) 22:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

On Grk1011's point around my tone, if what I said was in any way short or overly to the point in a negative way or was read in that way, I do apologise. It was not my intention to be rude, it's just a very frustrating situation to be in when my motives are called into question. I believe I have tried to approach every situation in good faith, but if what I have said has called that into question then I am sorry. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 22:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Look at my track record on creating, curating, and maintaining articles, of course I'm here to build an encyclopedia. I just see you on this crusade to remove so much content and wonder what the end goal is? I know OTHERSTUFFEXISTS but look at, say, the French Wiki equivalents of the articles you're tearing to shreds: everything they've kept, you're removing. The gap between content will raise questions about your motive doktorb _words^deeds 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm gonna jump in here as an editor that has recently been proposing a LOT of changes; Sims' proposals are based in Wikipedia guidelines, not on a desire to strip Wikipedia of Eurovision data — IмSтevan ^talk 00:39, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I also have a very extensive track record when it comes to curating and maintaining articles, and I have what I believe to be a good understanding of what a solid Wikipedia article looks like. What I am trying to achieve by being here is to put the work in, build up these articles and create something that is useful for the average reader. Specifically around this point on whether there should be standalone articles for NFs, like I said above, my preference is that one really great article that fully covers a topic in all its aspects is better than splitting it out just for the sake of it. Obviously in the case of Melodifestivalen or MGP in Norway there is usually justification to make these standalone articles since they are in some ways bigger than just their role of picking for Eurovision, and this is especially true of Sanremo where the two are completely separate beings. What I don't believe is helpful to the reader is in the case of PzE e.g. where content is split across two articles, and especially where PzE is not an established contest which would warrant separate articles for each year's contest outside of the normal "country-by-year" articles. If a standalone article is able to meet Wikipedia's policies around notability then of course it should be there, but I just don't see that being the case most of the time. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 10:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Images from Swedish Melodifestivalen on Commons

Samir & Viktor - Melodifestivalen 2024, Malmö.

The Swedish playoffs for ending up in the ESC has started in Malmö, and a triggerhappy photographer is there to capture everything. Keep an eye out for the images being uploaded to Commons this and coming weeks and feel free to add them to articles and to help out with translations, wikidata and other things around. Requests, questions and general shout outs can be added to the Swedish mello project page. /Axel Pettersson (WMSE) (talk) 10:45, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the lovely words Axel. I think everyone should refer to me as the triggerhappy photographer henceforth. Jokes aside, I happily receive feedback and requests while I'm covering the first and fourth preselection rounds. --Adjoka (talk) 14:55, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@Adjoka: @Axel Pettersson (WMSE): Thanks so much for the pics and for letting us know! Grk1011 (talk) 18:40, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

ESCplus España

This isn't meant to be a criticism necessarily, more just a question as I'm quite curious, but I've noticed that on a lot of "country-by-year" articles that there has been a preference to use ESCplus España as the source of choice when adding information. I certainly don't dispute the verifiability of this site, and I expect everything that has been added is completely relevant, but it's curious to me with the number of English-language sources available why this website in particular has become so common given that English-language sources are preferred and it got me wondering if there is perhaps an undisclosed conflict of interest incident going on here. I would very much appreciate any answers either way on this. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 00:10, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd imagine that a Spanish user adding content simply finds it easier to use a Spanish-languaged source; this is based off only what you wrote here and to give further analysis I'd have to dig deeper. Is it the same user adding the sources? Are they replacing pre-existing sources? Are all those sources written by the same person? — IмSтevan ^talk 10:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah looking into it more I'm less and less convinced it's anything nefarious. I've probably just been looking at the same pages too much recently and probably my curiosity got the better of me! Sims2aholic8 (talk) 11:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I have been using ESCplus España as a source more often lately, especially for the national final results, since it is always very detailed compared e.g. with Eurovoix. That’s probably why you are seeing it in various articles. No conflict of interest going on, I am not related in any way with the outlet. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 12:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

New semi allocation maps

With the new base map with the geographical fixes and corrections, as well as the new colour scheme for the main Eurovision events maps, I took a stab at creating a new scheme for the semi-final allocation maps. I felt given that we've now moved to a blue-red scheme for the main maps, that it might make sense to find a new colour scheme for the semi allocation maps given that they have had a legacy blue-red scheme. I felt a green-yellow scheme could work well here, given that from a colourblind perspective this combination does not have the same level of issues as other combinations. I've done an example for 2015 (which also shows the special colour for Australia voting in both semis); happy for a discussion on the colour scheme if there are strong opinions and to plot a path forward as a community. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 11:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

The idea of changing the color scheme seems reasonable. At a glance, though, I feel the dark green shade in your proposal overpowers a bit the other hues. Still don’t know if I just need to get used to it, but I’d change yellow with a stronger color. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 22:35, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Or maybe we could use a mild shade of blue instead of green? ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 22:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I had considered blue as well, especially since blue and yellow are complimentary colours. I can have a go at some other shades, cause I did think the green was somewhat overpowering as well. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 22:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

File:ESC 2015 Semi-Finals 2 (1).svg

Take two, swapped the green for a lighter shade of blue compared to the main maps. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 23:01, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Looks great! That’s pretty much the idea of blue I had and this version definitely seems much more balanced to me. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 23:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: Perhaps wait with making more of them as the base map still has some mistakes, the borders in the Middle East and North Africa are clunky. For example you can see something sticking out of Morocco, which is a different Morocco model — IмSтevan ^talk 23:23, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

No problem at all! There's definitely no immediate rush on this so happy to wait till the base map is finalised. In the meantime we can still discuss and finalise the colour scheme for these maps. None of the already existing maps are impacted anyway. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 23:41, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not against a color scheme change, but I honestly think the shade of blue is too flashy here. Darker and/or more paster shades work better I think Yoyo360 (talk) 19:35, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

We opted for this shade since the other color is also bright. So I get your point but changing the shade of blue would also require to change the shade of yellow IMO. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 19:49, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

File:ESC 2015 Semi-Finals 2 (2).svg

Have tried to darken the colours a little bit so they're not as "neon" or flashy. Thoughts? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 00:21, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Fine by me! ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 00:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

My issue is that microstates are barely visible amongst the aqs — IмSтevan ^talk 19:29, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I've made the automatic qualifiers lighter shades of yellow and blue, hopefully that addresses your concern? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:26, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: New map for 2024 with the blue-yellow colour scheme is now live. Please do let me know if there are still any concerns with the colours and we can work on tweaking the scheme further. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 11:00, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Participating countries, songs, and languages

I think the pages look a bit cluttered by having the songs listed in one big column with songwriters, languages etc. and then the songs re-listed again for the information on the semi-finals / final results.

Personally, I think it looked a lot cleaner how it was before: Languages listed in the table next to the song name in the Final/Semi-Final, and people can find the songwriters by clicking the songs' names individually to go onto their page. No big table near the beginning of the article which now essentially duplicates information.

I'm not sure of the process in terms of how this should be agreed and implemented, but I regularly use these pages to find this info and find it was easier beforehand (not sure when it changed). Would someone be able to please advise?

Thanks. 77.102.82.71 (talk) 02:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I mean I simply disagree with this, however I think that we should bring back the languages row for the live shows, as the language of a song as it is released is sometimes different than the language(s) it's performed in — IмSтevan ^talk 11:46, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how the language a song is released in is relevant when it's different to the language it was performed in at Eurovision. There have been many occasions where a song has changed language before getting to Eurovision, and those details are relevant to the song articles but I don't see how they're in anyway relevant to the Eurovision articles. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:47, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe it’s much more consistent to have all the participants (and related additional info) together rather than forcing readers to look for a country in the semi or final sections. As to languages, they can also be found in the song articles just like songwriters, so I don’t really see the point of breaking stuff across the page. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 12:08, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the participants section is very helpful. I believe this came about in the last 2(?) years due to concerns from non-ESC readers who felt that the information wasn't presented fully before being divided up. Grk1011 (talk) 13:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe 2024 is the first year this table has been in place going into the contest, but it has been a common feature on country-by-year articles for a number of years now and I think it adds value by incorporating the songwriters (and conductors pre-1999) in a way that avoids massive duplication in the contest overview section. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Additional referencing for countries competing in a specific Eurovision year.

A bit hard to make a good title for this, but I was using wikipedia the other day to do some research of Eurovision data, when I realized how frustrating it was to find pages like Cyprus in the Eurovision Song Contest 2004.

For example, if I go to Cyprus in the Eurovision Song Contest, and look at the table, where every year's result of the country is listed, I could click on 2004, and it would lead me to the page Eurovision Song Contest 2004. I found this a bit strange, as I would expect that clicking on 2004 would direct me over to Cyprus in the Eurovision Song Contest 2004.

I am not sure whether to change the references that happen when you click on i.e. 2004 from Eurovision Song Contest 2004 to Cyprus in the Eurovision Song Contest 2004. But I really feel like adding a reference to Cyprus in the Eurovision Song Contest 2004 (and for the other years) somewhere in the table would be extremely useful. I tried to add these references when you clicked on the place in the table. This was met with reversions, and so instead of going on an endless war in reversion, I wanted to hear some opinions on this. I am very open to the reference not being via the country's place, but I really believe that these references would be an amazing addition. Thomediter (talk) 18:30, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I can agree with that confusion, it happened to myself at the beginning. Usually, one has to navigate to the national pages by using the templates at the end of the page but the template is not accessible in the mobile version (at least in the Wikipedia app) so it can be frustrating.

On the other hand, if we replace the "ESC year" links in the participation overview table by the corresponding "country in the ESC year" link, where would we include the "ESC year" link then? Having them both included in the table could be also confusing and "inflate" the table too much...

Another option would be creating a separate section and table for "National selection" overview with columns for year (=> "Country by ESC year" link), winner, selection mode ...? EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 19:01, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that there would be disadvantages if we just replace the "ESC year". I wondered if referencing through the number indicating their final placement or final points total, could be a possibility. I don't think the tables would be that much inflated, I mean, at Eurovision Song Contest 2024, there is a table referencing - Country, Broadcaster, Artist, Song, Language, Songwriter(s), and if that's not too much inflating, I don't see that this would be.Thomediter (talk) 19:58, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I am not opposed to EurovisionLibrarian's suggestion of including a new segment for "National selections" with tables or prose as appropriate covering each country's selection process. In fact this is best practice for these articles, and have been featured in Good Article examples such as the articles on Sammarinese and Andorran participation. However, per MOS:PROSE, we should be striving to use prose, and not tables or lists, where possible, and only for very complex information, such as the participation and results tables on Eurovision articles, are tables appropriate. A table containing information on a country's national selection information may be appropriate, but it depends on the contest. This information also will need to be backed up by reliable sources, and for many countries there are very few reliable sources that we can use to verify their selection process each year sufficiently enough to warrant adding a table or list to the article. This is why for other GA nominees, such as the Luxembourg article, this section is not included as information on previous NFs is mainly found only on unreliable fan sites, therefore the amount of verifiable information that can be included is limited. Potentially one solution could be to add a direct link to each country's main category (in the case of Cyprus this would be Category:Cyprus in the Eurovision Song Contest) as a {{see also}} or similar as part of the "Participation overview" or other section, as a convenient way to find the links to all "country by year" articles on mobile devices. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:54, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I've tested something here. Open to other terms, colors, labels, etc. Grk1011 (talk) 18:39, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

That's not bad at all, in my opinion (apart from the fact that I think "testing" should happen in sandboxes, not on live pages, but that's a different story). Of course, we should pay attention not to link to any redirects which link to the country page itself. In that case the cell probably has to stay empty.

The "see also" solution suggested by Sims2aholic8 is also possible but that would mean writing a "Selection process" prose section about the national selection history of each country (sourced, needless to say). It would be nice indeed to have such a section in the long term for each country page. That would also give us the opportunity to rewrite the "Contest history" or "History" sections of the country pages – many of them are badly sourced, focus too much on statistics, and/or focus on the 21th century (Italy, Germany). EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 20:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

This would work for San Marino given that all articles exist, however I worry about how this might work for the likes of Luxembourg or Monaco where the majority of articles are missing. Would we then have a column where we only have a handful of links and the rest are blank? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I thought about putting the N/A grayed out fill there. I don't have a problem with harmless tests on live pages, it's the experimental ones that are the concern. Also this way brings more folks in. Grk1011 (talk) 22:42, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@Sims2aholic8 Thanks for bringing up that point. Indeed, countries with a long participation history before the 1990s and which have held no public selections then have many per year articles missing (i.e. Monaco, Luxembourg; as well as Austria and Switzerland for the 1950s-1980s). If the column is omitted only for those countries, this would lead to inconsistency. If the column is present in the table with many empty cells, this would look a bit awkward on those countries' pages. I nevertheless have a preference for the second option. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 10:04, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I've added the column to the Luxembourg article, and I dunno what to think. It's a little bit messy but with a few tweaks to the table structure it might work. Thoughts? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 13:28, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I absolutely love this idea. @Grk1011 Thomediter (talk) 23:24, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I'd also suggest adding a column of this type to the participating countries tables on the main contest articles, which also suffer from difficult navigation to these articles. Potentially in place of the unsourced languages column (recall that I also feel language is just one of many characteristics of a song and its presence in the table suggests it has some sort of impact). Grk1011 (talk) 13:53, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

If this new column were to be introduced on these tables as well, which I would tentatively support, what would we replace the current links in the country column with? One possibility I can think of is to the main country participation articles, since these are currently not present anywhere within these articles. Regarding the languages column, would you be proposing we remove these from all articles (including the country in contest and country by year articles)? I can certainly see your argument for that, especially on some of the country by year articles where this information is wholly unsourced, but I fear a massive pushback from a subsection of readers so I feel that this needs a new consensus outside of this discussion. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 14:41, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I'd support changing the pipe for the country column to the country in ESC target. As of now, I think we have it set up in a way that sort of makes sense, but also is a bit WP:EASTERy (I wouldn't be surprised if some folks think that link goes to the country's article). Also, you're right, removing languages would definitely be a larger discussion, and I only mention it because I wouldn't want our decision on the "more info" column to be based on "too many columns already". Grk1011 (talk) 18:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I can kinda see where you're coming from with the EASTER argument. It's one of those "in the bubble" things I guess where it makes sense to us but it may not make sense to the average reader. Given the split now of the detailed participants info from the results tables on the yearly articles, would you envisage changing the country links in the results tables as well, either to the main country articles or making them unlinked? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:03, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I think it makes more sense to have it in the participants section since the articles are about each country's participation overall. The results section has more space for additional columns, but if we did that, perhaps a pipe-to-"At Eurovision" link would be appropriate. Grk1011 (talk) 13:59, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting we also add the column to the results tables, I think having them just in the participants table is the way to go, my question was more about whether we change the country links in the results tables as well, and if so to what? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:25, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I see. I'm not sure. Suggestions/thoughts from others welcome! Grk1011 (talk) 22:53, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I've made the initial change to Eurovision Song Contest 2024 in the hopes of generating additional discussion. 14:32, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

I think this makes the tables on the main contest articles feel more cluttered. In my opinion, if the reader wants to know more about the country in the contest overall, they can access it via the country in the year article anyways. As for the country in the year articles themselves, I think the above examples seem messy, especially for countries such as Luxembourg. Maybe we could make a new section titled something like "Participation articles by year" with collapsible lists that link to the country in edition articles? That could be further categorized by decade and would avoid the blanks on the participation overview tables. Aris Odi ❯❯❯ talk 16:34, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Or my other idea would be that we add a section on {{Infobox song contest country}} that links to those articles, similar to what they have on {{infobox country at games}}. Example: Australia at the Olympics which has the links to the country in each game in the infobox, and only links to the games themselves in the overview section. Aris Odi ❯❯❯ talk 16:52, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like a great idea! Would you be willing to mock it up in sandbox? Grk1011 (talk) 14:41, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I also think this sounds like a great idea! It could be exactly the kind of solution we need for the country articles that is visible and easily accessible. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:00, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Sweden in the Eurovision Song Contest
Participating broadcaster	Sveriges Television (SVT; 1980–present) Former members Sveriges Radio (1958–1979)
Participation summary
Appearances	62 (61 finals)
First appearance	1958
Highest placement	1st: 1974, 1984, 1991, 1999, 2012, 2015, 2023
Host	1975, 1985, 1992, 2000, 2013, 2016, 2024
Participation history 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025
Related articles
Melodifestivalen
External links
SVT official homepage
For the most recent participation see Sweden in the Eurovision Song Contest 2023

 Comment: I went ahead and did some work in the sandbox to test out a new "Participation history" section using Sweden as an example. Similar to the Olympics infobox contests are listed only from when the country first entered, with links for any existing "country-by-year" articles, no links for redirects, greyed out text for contests where the country did not participate, and any winning entries are currently shown in bold. This is pulled automatically from individual templates underneath the infobox, e.g. Template:Infobox song contest country/Sweden. Eager to hear thoughts and any areas for improvements. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:35, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! This is a great start. My preliminary thoughts are that it would be nice if they could be lined up linearly instead of each row offset, and I'm on the fence about the formatting for the various participation outcomes when it doesn't have a key (and would be bulky/weird to add one). Grk1011 (talk) 15:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

I was trying to add padding to the template, but I'm not that sure whether it needs to apply to the infobox or the country templates. Tried to add it to the Sweden template but it didn't seem to work, so any thoughts on how to solve this would be good! Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:06, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

@Sims2aholic8: @AxG: any ideas on how to fix the vertical alignment? Is there a good venue to ask for help? Do folks like the idea of these links? It would be super helpful, especially on mobile, to have more straightforward links to the year articles. Grk1011 (talk) 14:07, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Grk1011: I've tweaked it a bit so to have a {{hlist}} for each line? -- AxG / ✉  15:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

ooo thanks! I'm not opposed to this. Checked on mobile and it works...ok.. but I think there are some formatting things for the infobox overall that affect it. Grk1011 (talk) 15:45, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah the formatting looks way worse on mobile, probably down to the font used and bolding obviously, if I was doing it purely for myself I'd use a monospace font, or the harder way and put each year and bullet in a separate field of a table. -- AxG / ✉  18:43, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

It's definitely an improvement, and it does look alright for me when I check it on the app and through a normal web browser on mobile. I would agree there are maybe some formatting tweaks that could be made overall to make it work better on mobile, however I'm wondering how much of this is possible within the confines of what is possible with using the Wikipedia-wide Template:Infobox. Either way this is an adequate solution which we can improve upon, so unless there are other concerns I'd say we can start rolling this out. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:43, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Great! Let's do it! Grk1011 (talk) 12:58, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi! This is an improvement, and I assume that it is still a work in progress. And as far as I understand by the documentation the contests supported are ESC, JESC and Choir. But be aware that right now other contest that use the infobox like OTI and ABU are showing the template for JESC: Spain in the OTI Festival, South Korea in the ABU Radio Song Festival. Ferclopedio (talk) 12:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Can someone switch this field to optional? For the Spain link just above, there is also the added complexity that it appears to have evoked the ESC template instead. I think that's because it's the default? Grk1011 (talk) 13:17, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Fixed now. I had accidently added the wrong code for searching for JESC in the Contest field, so it was by default showing any JESC templates for all templates if ESC wasn't presented in this field. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 13:35, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Fix verified!... Well done, thanks! Ferclopedio (talk) 15:57, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: I have started to create additional templates for the other countries (see Template:Infobox song contest country/Germany for the first one). If anyone has better ideas for how to create these, or other ways that we can get the same effect but without creating 50+ templates, I'm all ears! Sims2aholic8 (talk) 17:20, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Changes are now live on all country articles for the main contest! Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Also now live on Junior country-in-contest articles! Sims2aholic8 (talk) 22:14, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

This is amazing work, thank you for spending the time to implement it. Aris Odi ❯❯❯ talk 08:07, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Eurovision Song Contest 2024 – Participation summaries by country
Albania Armenia Australia Austria Azerbaijan Belgium Croatia Cyprus Czechia Denmark Estonia Finland France Georgia Germany Greece Iceland Ireland Israel Italy Latvia Lithuania Luxembourg Malta Moldova Netherlands Norway Poland Portugal San Marino Serbia Slovenia Spain Sweden Switzerland Ukraine United Kingdom

 Comment: I had been thinking about the above conversation of how best to present the links to these articles on the contest-by-year articles, and I thought maybe a standalone infobox that sits alongside the participants table might be useful. I've created an example for the 2024 participants (see right) to facilitate discussion and to help with gathering people's thoughts. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:47, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that should be fine. Let's try it for 2024 and see how it looks? Grk1011 (talk) 13:17, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Now added to the 2024 article. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 13:30, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I think adding extra links in an infobox with the same title as the participants table will cause confusion. I still believe it would be better to only link to the Participant in the Eurovision Song Contest by year articles, the readers can get to the main articles from there anyways. Aris Odi ❯❯❯ talk 08:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

If you have an alternative title that springs to mind that we can use here which reduces confusion then please feel free to share. I personally don't see the issue with having an extra infobox; anything we can do to make it easier for the reader to get to the article they're looking for in the fewest clicks should be considered a good thing, right? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 11:29, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I can see there being a learning curve since the title of the new infobox is the same as the title of the table. Some options:

• "Details for each Eurovision Song Contest 2024 Participant"
• "2024 Participation Summaries by Country"

I had a couple more, but the wording is tough because you want to make sure the reader knows it's about the 2024 participation not about the countries that are simply taking part in 2024. Grk1011 (talk) 13:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I went with this title originally as it was the simplest and most easy to understand title, but I can see that it is a bit too similar. There's also the added complexity that there are occasionally links for countries which did not end up participating in the contest but where we have standalone articles and/or redirects where an article may be appropriate should more information on the subject become available (e.g. Russia 2022, Belarus 2021, Romania 2016, Serbia and Montenegro 2006). I do believe these links should remain in these infoboxes, but for that reason the title probably should change. I've changed the 2024 infobox to "Eurovision Song Contest 2024 – Participation summaries by country" for now; I'm not sure "summaries" is the best word, cause that makes it sound more like something a lot shorter than what we usually strive for with these articles, but maybe I'm overthinking it. Either way let me know your thoughts and we can continue to tweak this if needed. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 13:37, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Flags as headers

I'm not informed enough to be the judge of this, but don't tables such as the detailed jury results in the Melfest 2023 final which use only flags as headers not present an accessibility issue to some users? And would they not additionally present a barrier to people that are just not familiar with flags? Why are we not consistent with Eurovision by year articles and using Template:Vertical header in nfs? — IмSтevan ^talk

I agree, I believe we should be consistently using either vertical headers or plain text placed horisontally instead of flags for that exact reason. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 10:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Having a similar concern, for Melfest 2024 I switched to using {{flagg|uxxa|COUNTRYNAME}} so that on desktop mode the name of country displays at mouseover. I’m afraid this still leaves accessibility issues on mobile though. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 11:40, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: So... do we just switch to normal headers where tables being too wide isn't an issue (most nfs), and to vertical ones where they would be? — IмSтevan ^talk 18:32, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe that’s what we should do, even though I also like countries being presented through their flags so I wonder if there’s really no other option. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 18:47, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I mean we can do vertical flags and vertical headers, we'd just have to implement a vertical flag value in Country data templates, or have the normal flags rotated — IмSтevan ^talk 11:49, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

That could be an option. Let’s see if other users have any particular takes or ideas/proposals. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 12:03, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Well my initial hope was to just add {{verth}} to the flag icons, but alas I couldn't make it work, a work around would be to split the cells, just an idea:

Detailed international jury votes

R/O	Song	Belgium	Ireland	Malta	Serbia	Australia	Iceland	Germany	Cyprus	Total

Whilst on the topic of Melfest, I'm not sure of the benefits of having the 'Age groups' colour-coded here with no explanation. -- AxG / ✉  13:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

That is a very good point. It makes sense if you've watched the show and know that the colours are what is used on the show to distinguish the voting groups, but without that explanation it could be quite confusing to a casual reader. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:04, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with keeping the color codes, but we could have a header spanning all 7 age groups that says "Points awarded by age group" — IмSтevan ^talk 16:27, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd recommend removing the colors. It's just there for decoration as the columns and their titles already fully describe what's going on. Grk1011 (talk) 16:34, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I think there is value in keeping the colour coding, however the "Format" section definitely needs to be updated with additional details on how the voting system works in greater detail, and in particular on how the final qualification system worked. If there's no easy way to explain how the colours relate to the age groups without using SVT publicity material, which is not free use, then I say it should be removed. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:35, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: I created a template for vertical flags:

Example 1:

{{Vertical flag|Serbia}}

{{Vertical flag|Serbia|border=y}}

Example 2:

{{{Vertical flag|Luxembourg}}

{{Vertical flag|Luxembourg|size=50px}}

Example 3:

{{{Vertical flag|Portugal}}

{{Vertical flag|Portugal|size=30px|border=y}}

That would give us:

Detailed international jury votes

R/O	Song	Belgium	Ireland	Malta	Serbia	Australia	Iceland	Germany	Cyprus	Total
		{{Vert flag|Belgium}}	{{Vert flag|Ireland}}	{{Vert flag|Malta}}	{{Vert flag|Serbia}}	{{Vert flag|Australia}}	{{Vert flag|Iceland}}	{{Vert flag|Germany}}	{{Vert flag|Cyprus}}

— IмSтevan ^talk 17:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. Seeing it mocked up, I feel a bit uncomfortable. Rotated like that they don't aid in identification as much and I feel like it would be confusing to see Hungary and Italy next to each other for example. Grk1011 (talk) 17:52, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Hate to say that from mobile it looks terribly messy—each flag displays in a different size. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 18:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I would tend to agree, this looks very messy even on desktop and it doesn't help at all with identifying the countries to each flag. It makes it very confusing to know where the hoist would be located; given the text starts at the bottom you'd expect the hoist to also be at the bottom, but in fact it's at the top. This is especially confusing for countries such as Ireland where its flag can be easily mistaken for the flag of Ivory Coast. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 18:36, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, not feeling the vertical flags and the different ways they are presented (even though official), and don't get me started on the Cyprus one (anyone got a magnifying glass?).  AxG / ✉  21:34, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Vertical looks terrible doktorb _words^deeds 01:05, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: So...where do we stand on this? I'd support just going the ESC pages route and using vertical names — IмSтevan ^talk 01:34, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

So far the one I like the most is AxG’s proposal. Even though I’m afraid it’s unnecessary to do that just to have flags in the tables. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 10:24, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

According to MOS:FLAG, we have to have the country name written out if the flag is to be included, so AxG's proposal is probably the best we can get. The rotated flags are confusing in appearance. Grk1011 (talk) 12:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)