Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 23

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Campeonato Gaúcho and Campeonato Carioca - notable enough?

@Lucas Gaúcho once asked here if Campeonato Gaúcho was a FPL, and as it seems, no consensus was reached. I also asked about Campeonato Carioca and Campeonato Gaúcho some time later, but nobody replied (only a single user agreed that Mineiro was indeed a FPL).

I'll post again those tournaments' regulations, so everybody can analyze it again:

Carioca - In Campeonato Carioca, the first paragraph of the regulation, it says: O Campeonato Estadual de Futebol da Série A de profissionais será realizado com a participação de 16 associações a saber [...];

Gaúcho - In the regulation, it says: É vedada a participação de atletas não profissionais com idade superior a 20 (vinte) anos., which means that only professional and youth players (yes, in Brazil a player can have a youth contract until his 20th birthday) can play.

I think they should be added on the list. MYS77 ^✉ 13:53, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Speaking only for the Carioca, whilst all clubs involved are registered as professional, clubs are allowed to register amateur players to enter it. The registration sheet for last season [1] has space for registering 4 amateur players in the registered squad for the competition. At least Bonsucesso Futebol Clube took advantage of this [2]. Gricehead (talk) 15:06, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

@Gricehead: I'll check later if these four amateurs are under-20 players. In some state leagues, like Gaúcho and Mineiro, this is normal as an amateur contract is like a youth/scholarship contract. MYS77 ^✉ 15:11, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

@MYS77: The amateurs can be registered in addition to U20 Professional players in the Carioca. Gricehead (talk) 15:12, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

@MYS77: Campeonato Gaúcho e Campeonato Carioca are fully professional tournaments. As Gricehead told you, a few U20 players can be registered as amateurs in professional tournament matches. Take a look at Article 39 of 2016 CBF General Rules of Competitions. Basically, it says that amateur players over the age of 20 years are forbidden in professional competition matches, however clubs are allowed to register up to five U20 players as amateurs per match. This is true even for Campeonato Brasileiro Série A. So I guess it is safe to say that at least all first division state tournaments are fully professional in Brazil, unless explicitly noted. Regards. —Alan Moraes (talk) 20:32, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@Alan Moraes: Thanks for your explanation. That's what I thought, I once saw Tombense using two or three amateurs in a Mineiro match, but then I went out to check their ages, all 18. That's what Bonsucesso may have done here as well. MYS77 ^✉ 11:29, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

@MYS77: Do we have to get approval of someone before updating the list? — Alan Moraes (talk) 13:14, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

@Alan Moraes: I think this consensus and the explanations provided here are more than enough. I'll add both tournaments on the main list. MYS77 ^✉ 14:08, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

@MYS77: Okay. I've put Campeonato Paraibano and Campeonato Pernambucano. — Alan Moraes (talk) 15:31, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Deletion of articles about football players

Hello. I want ask question about WP:NFOOTBALL. At second criteria for football player is : "Players who have played, and managers who have managed in a fully professional league, will generally be regarded as notable. See a list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football." But at WT:FPL there is a sentence about deletion of articles : "It might not provide valid criteria for an AfD nomination, or a noticeboard action or other dispute." So how we can decide players who played other leagues which listed at WT:FPL is notable or not? --Aabdullayev851 (talk) 18:15, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

If a player has not played in a notable league (as per FPL) the article will need to meet WP:GNG, although all articles should be meeting that anyway. Eldumpo (talk) 18:21, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

@Eldumpo: Hi there! In WP:N it reads "A topic is presumed to merit an article if: It meets either the general notability guideline below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right;" (emphasis added). I understand that meeting the subject-specific guideline is just fine to pass the bar of notability, although I agree with you that this is not an excuse for writing poor articles, right? Regards. —Alan Moraes (talk) 20:48, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi Alan. Whilst the opening paragraph of NSPORT does indicate that GNG or the sport-specific guideline should be met, further in the article it is confirmed that all articles should meet GNG. A number of footballer articles have been deleted where the player just about met NFOOTBALL (perhaps played a single game), but where the article did not meet wider GNG. Regards. Eldumpo (talk) 18:24, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

@Eldumpo: Hi! Could you please quote that passing in the text? Thanks. — Alan Moraes (talk) 21:55, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

See the opening paragraph of WP:NSPORT, and also the first section 'Applicable policies and guidelines'. Eldumpo (talk) 09:55, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

@Eldumpo: Thanks! — Alan Moraes (talk) 14:30, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Philippines Football League

I think it's time to add the Philippines Football League to the list of fully professional leagues. I think we can say with a high degree of certainty that this league will go ahead as it now has 7 clubs which have signed up to play due to kick of in April. There is also confirmation that it will be a professional league from the PFF[3]. A simple google search yields many result about professionalism. Simione001 (talk) 22:07, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

It will go ahead? It will be professional? WP:CRYSTAL. GiantSnowman 22:18, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Are you suggesting it should only be added once round one kicks off? Unless in the highly unlikely event that the league collapses in the next two months I think it should be added. Simione001 (talk) 22:25, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I think it should be added. The source and every other one says that each team needs to pass the AFC Licensing Criteria (along with PFF Licensing) which pretty much means the league will be fully-professional. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 01:43, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Why not wait until the league starts. Who knows what happens between now and then ... bankruptcy, civil unrest ... or Trump could nuke the planet. Nfitz (talk) 06:33, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

As the one who mentioned the PFL months ago, I agree that we should wait till the league commence.The final official list of participating clubs hasn't been announced yet and needs to be at least 6 in order the AFC to acknowledge it as a domestic national league. The corporation that will manage the league is yet to be formed. (at least there is no report on this yet).Hariboneagle927 (talk) 12:42, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Agree we should wait until latethe first game. The nature of the league is irrelevant for player notability until games have been played. Looks though that at that point it will be a fully professional league. Fenix down (talk) 14:17, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Southern League

What is the status of players who did not appear in the Football League, but did so in the Southern League prior to 1920? There are a number of wiki pages for players who played only in the Southern League prior to 1920, with editors "controlling" those pages and refuting any requests for deletion, insisting that the player is notable because prior to the addition of the Third Division to the Football League 1920, the Southern League was seen as the Football League's equal and the player was a full professional. Is there any kind of official clarification available? Beatpoet (talk) 22:43, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

I doubt it was ever entirely fully-professional, although there may have been periods before WWI when the vast majority of clubs in it were (possibly all but one or two in some seasons, although it will probably be impossible to prove either way). I would put the articles up for AfD though, as it does sound like a case of protectionism by the articles' creator.

On a related note, I noticed you have recently been creating season articles for Brentford during their time in non-League. Are you aware that these also fail the notability guidelines (specifically WP:NSEASONS – although the wording there is the vague "top professional leagues", the result of numerous AfDs has effectively meant that it is interpreted as FPLs as far as football is concerned)? Number 57 23:12, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Agree on both points with #57. Probably the players are not notable. The league is not on WP:FPL so they would need to meet GNG. Also agree that non league season articles need to meet GNG as they are not of a level sufficient to fulfill NSEASONS. Fenix down (talk) 23:15, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Mauritius

Mauritius was added to the list of FPLs earlier today, using this as a source. As a result (the source says nothing about the league's status), I removed it. I have now done some research and would welcome other views. This article suggests it is indeed an FPL, the key sentence being "200 players practice this sports discipline full-time and at the same time benefit from a monthly salary". However, before I added it, I thought it would be worth checking with others. The one thing that concerns me is that budget for the league is 40,000,000 rupees, or 200,000 per player. This is well below the median (261,000) and average (352,000) incomes reported in 2015 by Stats Mauritius. However, I guess this is perhaps only the central grant and clubs can raise additional funds. Thoughts anyone? Number 57 20:16, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Its obvious from the source that there's a significant level of professionalism in the MPFL, but there's also a lot here that gives me pause. First there's the fact that the 40M rupee budget is also meant to cover "match premiums" (whatever those are?), bringing the per player average down further. Then there's concerns about stability. The article suggest that it was doubtful whether or not the 2015/16 season would even happen. It also says that "the clubs have promised to completely fulfill their role." This sounds good of course, but you don't say it out loud at press conference unless its been called into question. Finally, there's the attendance figures. I don't have hard data on this, but the article reads as if the crowds of 2000-3000 people at stade St-François Xavier are outliers, meaning the attendance figures are well below what you'd expect for fully pro league. All to told my conclusions are that full professionalism is possible, but I'd need more information to convince me of that. What I think is more likely is that this is league in the process of professionalisation. Sir Sputnik (talk) 21:44, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Superettan

Hi, having recently contacted IFK Norrköping, to ask about a player, they told me that the Superettan Swedish second tier division is a fully professional league, is that correct? thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 19:18, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

@Atlantic306: There were no reliable sources to back up this statement? If no, then we have to assume that it isn't a fully-pro league. MYS77 ^✉ 19:43, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

No, just this email :

Hello,

We played in the swedish second division while Dago Funes played here. The second division called Superettan is a fully professional league.

Best regards, Fredrik Nilsson IFK Norrköping

---

Ursprungligt meddelande-----

Från: Jimmy Knott [4] Skickat: den 25 mars 2017 20:57 Till: IFK Norrköping Info Ämne: Dago Funes

Hi, can you please tell me whether Dago Funes played in the Swedish premier league while he was at your club. The reason I am asking is that the English Wikipedia article on him can only be kept if he has played in a fully professional league or his national team, thanks Jimmy Knott

Will ask them about rs tomorrow, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 19:48, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

@Atlantic306: Funes never played in any division higher than the Superettan. He does not pass through WP:NFOOTY but may pass through WP:GNG if you gather significant media coverage about him. All of these sources need to be WP:RS, though. MYS77 ^✉ 14:38, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I wasn't writing an article but I prodded a one line stub about him (just deleted) and was doublechecking if he passed NFOOTY. Have emailed IFK Norrköping to ask for rs about the Superettan, thanks for your help Atlantic306 (talk) 18:10, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Indian Women's League

So the Indian Women's League began a couple days ago. According to the All India Football Federation themselves, the league is professional. Other, independent sources such as the Indian Express and Tribune India have called the league professional, with the league being launched with a "bang" and Indian international footballers will be participating in the tournament. The Tribune article provides a bit more information, mainly that the league will/is being broadcasted on the AIFF website and that sponsors were hard to find, if any, but the league is still being organized in a professional matter along the same lines as the fully-professional Indian Super League. Players are also being paid to play in the league which I think helps. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 04:41, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

I would suggest not. Yes there might be a professional element to it, but the fact that sources suggest that there is no sponsorship deal attached at all and no t.v. deal, I am not sure what is meant by "professional" here; who is bank rolling this? Fenix down (talk) 13:51, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Essentially being bank rolled by the AIFF. And ya, I think I agree here for now. Even when you watch the games on facebook, the sponsorship boards only have the league logo, a Nike logo (the AIFF sponsor), and an ad for the facebook page of the Indian national team. Also looking more into this, I am not sure actually if every team has players being paid. Alakpura for example is just a team from a small village. Are these girls being paid? I don't know, they have no sponsors so I assume no. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:35, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Many leagues call themselves professional but probably aren't in a way that players can live from it. Colombia and Venezuela have one since this year. And if even Germany or Sweden are not fully pro, guess no other are. Really doubt the Eredivisie that's listed here is fully pro. -Koppapa (talk) 16:47, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

French Championnat National (and lower)

I propose that the Championnat National (the third tier of French football) is considered as a fully professional league. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether our definition of fully-professional relates to the clubs participating in a league or the players playing in a league. In the Championnat National (and the three tiers below) it is the case that players are paid a minimum wage through a federal contract (contrat fédéral) with the Union Nationale des Footballeurs Professionnels (UNFP). Note that these are standard contracts written by the FFF and validated by the UNFP. (Source - see section 3 Qu'est-ce qu'un contrat fédéral?)

In the National, it is obligatory that players sign a full-time (i.e. 35 hours per week) contract (again, see section 3 in previous link). Players in lower divisions on the federal contracts have the option to work part-time (60%) so I am not proposing that these are fully professional league (however, neither are they amateur as the English translation of their name suggests but that's another matter). Players are then put into one of three categories largely depending on their previous career, and given a certain number of points. Each point counts towards the player's wage, at a value of €14.40 (roughly £12.20, US$15.30) per point for the 2016–17 season (Source). The three categories are as follows:

• Case 1: The player was on a professional contract or an elite contract (players at professional clubs not subject to the minimum wages of professional players, e.g. recent academy graduates) during the previous season or part thereof — 250 points regardless of the player's new division
• Case 2: The player has been on a professional or elite contract at any point during their career, or has arrived from a foreign country and requires a contract for visa purposes — 180 points regardless of division
• Case 3: All other players — 130 points in National, 120 points in CFA, 110 points in CFA2 and 100 points in DH

Therefore, a player in the Championnat National is earning anywhere between €1,872 (£1,588, US$1,991) and €3,600 (£3,054, US$3,830) per month. To my mind, this is clearly enough money to qualify as fully professional. But as I said at the start, it is the players who are professional rather than the clubs. Is this acceptable under our current guidelines? BigDom (talk) 10:51, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure how a club cannot be considered fully professional if all the players are professional? Are managers/staff full-time? GiantSnowman 10:52, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

I simply meant that the clubs do not have professional players on their books in the same way as e.g. English league clubs. The players are not paid by the clubs, but through a central agency. I don't know about the arrangements for managers and staff to be honest. BigDom (talk) 10:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Requested removal of Greek Football League 2

Greek Football League 2 no longer officially exists. When used, it reffers to Gamma Ethniki as stated by the article itself. Also, the article in its lead says that it is an amateur league( Gamma Ethniki (Greek: Γ΄ Εθνική Ερασιτεχνική Κατηγορία, C National Amateur Division), is the third highest football league in Greece. ) Additionally, The Greek football federation includes it in their regulations for amateur matches. For these reasons, I propose to remove this league from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues--Kostas20142 (talk) 13:05, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Spent no time on it, but the article says its history was blah blah...professional from 1983 until 2014 season..blah blah, so I have noted the entry on FPL page as such. Surely it should stay there if the article is accurate? and if the article is not accurate, it should be corrected.ClubOranje^T 13:51, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Some periods it was professionall(although the clubs were not even close to noteable) --Kostas20142 (talk) 13:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

the clarification however is a good step--Kostas20142 (talk) 14:00, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

2016 Indonesia Soccer Championship A

How are we treating 2016 Indonesia Soccer Championship A, which was in 2016 the top league in Indonesia, with the same teams that used to play in the listed at WP:FPL Indonesia Super League. For that matter, how are we treating the 2017 replacement 2017 Liga 1 which again is planned to use the same teams from 2015 Indonesia Super League. I'm seeing prods for players who played in 2016? I've seen no indication that any of these teams have become non-fully-professional. Nfitz (talk) 23:38, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• Anyone? Nfitz (talk) 05:30, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

@Nfitz: it's a though one to say since the football federations in Indoesnia (and many other parts of the world) is so hectically operated. Based on WP:NFOOTY guidelines I think we will need some kind of proof to show that it was run professionally such as salaries or sponsorship's. However there is this documentary which makes me doubt that it was run professionally, although of course it is all assumption. View if you are interested. Inter&anthro (talk) 16:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Actually I backtrack, I think the 2016 Indonesia Soccer Championship A was possibly professional but the other leagues and stuff that where started in the super league's absence probably were not. Thanks Inter&anthro (talk) 16:24, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Hmm - must be something definitive in Bahasa somewhere. It's a big sport, a big country, with lots of media. I wonder what's written on the various Indonesian wikis. I'm not even sure which one might have the best discussion ... be it the lingua franca, Jawanese, or Sundanese I don't know. A research project one day I guess ... Nfitz (talk) 15:05, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Scottish Championship

I'm not sure why this is listed as a FPL. If it ever was, it hasn't been for a number of years. Dumbarton have played at that level for some years as a part-time club, [5] although they are in some danger of relegation this year. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 15:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

@Jmorrison230582: Then, Scottish League One and Scottish League Two shouldn't be considered fully-professional divisions as well. However, it would be nice to notify some people at WT:FOOTY to gather more opinions. MYS77 ^✉ 06:28, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

The 3rd and 4th levels of Scottish football have never been considered fully pro. As for the 2nd level, one semi-pro team is probably OK, it's what we have in Finland as well. "Fully professional" is merely an indicator of media coverage, which applies to both. GiantSnowman 08:48, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Delist - Last night I watched two more part-time clubs, Alloa Athletic and Brechin City, playing-off to join Dumbarton in next year's Championship. Brechin won on penalties to delight their 41-year-old player/manager, and the "pitch invasion" was slightly strange in that the players clearly knew all the fans who came on! One side of Brechin's ground is famously a hedge – in the first leg of this play-off final (presumably their biggest home game of the season) they attracted a crowd of 700, despite slashing prices and letting u16s in free. Apparently the guy who hit the winning penalty is returning to England as he's finishing his course at Stirling University. Post match, some of the players got in wheelie bins full of cold water at the side of the pitch. Don't get me wrong it was an enjoyable watch and I'm sure me and the few hundred other people who tuned to BBC Alba went away entertained. But "fully professional"? Not on your nelly. Or "nae chance" to borrow the vernacular. Hibernian and (possibly) Dundee United going up to the Premiership will leave the Championship with vastly-reduced coverage and average attendances if that is going to be our metric. I'd also point out that the references which are supposed to support this League's inclusion on the list appear to date from before the League's creation. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 09:40, 21 May 2017 (UTC)