Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 31

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TT Pro League's FPL status

There is one source cited for the full-professionalism of this league (from the league itself), but my reading of it is that the league's aspiration was to be fully-pro, not that the league actually achieved it. I've found a few articles which cast strong doubts on the league's status as anything but part-time professional. The national football team manager, Dennis Lawrence, disputes the full professionalism of the league in a July 2019 article. Former national team goalkeeper, Shaka Hislop, commented on the league's part-time status in a September 2008 blog posting. Another point of interest is Hislop's claim (which appears fairly consistent with the source cited on this page) about the league's player salaries averaging USD 10,000 compares unfavorably to entry level school teacher salaries at the International School of the Port of Spain. If league players earn significantly less than entry level school teachers, it suggests that they are not full-time players as they would need other sources of income to supplement their playing wages. I think it's time to remove TT Pro League from the FPL ranks until we find better sourcing that demonstrates it is indeed a fully-pro league. Jogurney (talk) 13:24, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

• Absent countervailing sources, I'd support removal of TT Pro League from FPL per these sources, particularly the quote from Lawrence about it being "part-time", playing only four months out of the year. The World Bank lists TT as a "high-income economy"; $10,000/year is obviously not a full-time professional salary in TT. GNI PPP per capita is $32,000 USD. [1] (see also List of countries by GNI (PPP) per capita). – Levivich 15:49, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I was hoping for additional feedback, but given the lack of any additional sources demonstrating the full professionalism of the league, I'm going to be bold and remove it from the list. Jogurney (talk) 13:57, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
    • I support the removal in the absence of any independent reliable sources which confirm its status. GiantSnowman 14:00, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
    • I'm also happy with removal. Would be good to also gain consensus on what to do with player articles that previously satisfied NFOOTY but no longer do. Fenix down (talk) 15:18, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
      • I checked each of the 245 articles in the category TT Pro League players, and only 28 wouldn't satisfy NFOOTBALL on the grounds that the footballer played in a fully-pro league or FIFA "A" international matches. Of that 28, three are already nominated for deletion (as articles covered a footballer with only 1 or 2 appearances in the TT Pro League), and 13 more cover footballers with no more than one season in the league (in my opinion, ripe for deletion if GNG cannot be met). I think we can wait to decide what to do with the 12 articles that cover footballers with multiple seasons in the league (articles which are more likely to satisfy the GNG). Jogurney (talk) 17:25, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
      • For tracking purposes, the 3 AfDs are as follows: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cristopher Mejia, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Miguel Romeo & Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eueller Eduardo Silva Couto.
      • The 13 articles that are in the queue for deletion are as follows: Kenny Adeshigbin, Alusine Bangura, Bradley Beaumont, Paolo De La Guardia, Carlos Diaz (soccer, born 1987), Luke Gullick, Robin Hart, Kareem Knights, Jairo Lombardo, Steve Loverso, Ralph Lundy III, Javed Mohammed, Christian Okonkwo and Oswin Williams.

So I tried to add this to the list of non-fully professional leagues, and was told I needed a citation. Could someone with more clear understanding of these criteria add this back? Jay eyem (talk) 00:10, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

The first link in Jogurney's post should suffice, with this thread backing it up with consensus if anyone challenges. Fenix down (talk) 06:47, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Scottish Championship/First Division (Untill 2013)

I have been informed that the Scottish Football League First Division; the second level of Scottish football prior to the 2013 revamp of the Scottish pyramid, should be considered a previous name for the current Scottish Championship, thus making it a fully professional league. Might I suggest that a note be added to the Scottish Championship section to reflect this, and to prevent any confusion between the Scottish First Division, a professional league by notability standards, and the Scottish League One, which does not meet the Professional standards and would therefore not count toward a players notability?

--Curt内蒙 (talk) 19:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I somehow forgot about our discussion about this, apologies. I'd support a note being added to make things clearer. R96Skinner (talk) 20:06, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

1. Lig and A Lyga and Costa Rican League

I came across am archived discussion regarding the professionalism of the Turkish 1. Lig, (link). It seems that it was agreed to be put on the list. Also, I came across a similar discussions about the Lithuanian A Lyga as well as the Costa Rican Primera Division (link 1 and link 2) that seemed to reach the same conclusion. Would it be okay to put all (or one) of these leagues on the list? Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 18:46, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Professional leagues that should be professional???

What is the word with the Girabola, Yemeni League and the Zimbabwe Premier Soccer League as their has been no word of whenever these leagues are now professional or not. HawkAussie (talk) 02:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

It's not very helpful. I'm not sure whether that comment is meant to say that they were expecting to be FPL but are not now, or whether they are legacy comments which were forward looking at the time they were added. Either way, I would say they should simply be removed as the sources in all instances appear to confirm none of them are FPL. Fenix down (talk) 10:16, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

@Fenix down: @HawkAussie:, I came across am archived discussion regarding the professionalism of the Turkish 1. Lig, (link). It seems that it was agreed to be put on the list. Also, I came across a similar discussions about the Lithuanian A Lyga as well as the Costa Rican Primera Division (link 1 and link 2) that seemed to reach the same conclusion. Would it be okay to put all (or one) of these leagues on the list? Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 02:36, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

On an unrelated note, what is the status of the National Independent Soccer Association, the new USSF sanctioned league? There have been concerns in the past about prior American leagues and I wasn't sure what the consensus was for this one. Jay eyem (talk) 22:43, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

• I'm not sure any of these are fully pro. I think players for Deportivo Saprissa or Alajuelense would almost certainly pass WP:GNG, though. NISA almost certainly is not. SportingFlyer T·C 03:58, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

@SportingFlyer: There was a discussion about the Turkish 1. Lig, Lithuanian A Lyga and Costa Rican Primera Division in the archived talk pages that seemed to lead to a resolution that they were fully professional. Should any of them be put on the list? Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 04:28, 12 September 2019 (UTC)}}

Start date for full professionalism of Belgian First Division A

I was improving Roland Storme and came across a KW article (it requires free registration with the site unfortunately) which describes the Belgian First Division as not being fully professional prior to 1960 (a top player on the league's top club had to work during the day and train with his football club at night). Should we set a start date for full professionalism at 1960? I suspect it wasn't yet fully-pro by 1960, but according to the article it certainly wasn't before that time. Jogurney (talk) 05:12, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. GiantSnowman 07:54, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Thai League 2 and 3, professional or not?

Is there any link to see if these two leagues are professional or not as in the article page, it says that they are a professional league and it's partly support with this link here and here which both mention Thai League 2 as professional but not League 3. But I feel like their are probably better references out there stating the professional status of League 2. HawkAussie (talk) 05:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Something being described as 'professional' and it being "fully-professional" for our standards here are different things. GiantSnowman 07:49, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Super League Greece 2

The Greek football league system has had a restructuring for 2019–20, with Super League Greece 2 coming in as the new second tier; with the Football League, Gamma Ethniki etc. moving down a tier each. Therefore, given the Super League (1) and Football League are listed as professional, shouldn't the Super League 2 be added? Perhaps a review of the Greek leagues at FPL is needed? R96Skinner (talk) 17:21, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Start date for full professionalism of Ligue 2

I came across an Ouest France article which indicates Guingamp did not become a fully professional club until 1984, despite being in Ligue 2 since 1977. Should we set a start date for the league's full professionalism at 1984? It's possible that other Ligue 2 clubs became fully-professional after 1984, but certainly it brings into doubt whether the league was fully-pro prior to 1984. Jogurney (talk) 20:12, 2 October 2019 (UTC) The Ligue 2 article in the French Wikipedia indicates full-professionalism was introduced in 1993. I'll see if I can find some sourcing to support that. Jogurney (talk) 20:17, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

• I found a blog post that confirms the start of full professionalism as the beginning of the 1993–94 season. Jogurney (talk) 16:18, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Good find! GiantSnowman 17:24, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

National Independent Soccer Association

Is this new American third division, National Independent Soccer Association, professional? They claim to be here, but I know we have a different definition of professional at Wikipedia. R96Skinner (talk) 15:33, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Lots of sources mention that it is "professional" - but as you say that is not the same as out "fully professional". I note however this source which talks about a team "going pro" when joining the league. GiantSnowman 15:46, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

A NPR article indicates Stumptown was planning to pay up to one million in annual salaries (not sure if that was for playing staff only): "The team budget for salaries will be in the range of $400,000 to $1 million annually, Carr said. The team would pay its expenses through ticket sales and business sponsorships." If they have 20 playing staff, and they actually pay a total of $400,000 annually, it's possibly these players train full-time. That said, if the $400,000 includes another dozen non-playing staff salaries, I doubt the average player would receive a full-time salary. Jogurney (talk) 17:21, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Status of W-league in Australia

There is a question as to whether the minimum payments to the players in the W-league constitute a professional or semi professional league The minimum wage at the moment is over $16,000 (not including insurance and other benefits) https://www.espn.com/football/story/_/id/26916632/w-league-player-pay-increased-new-deal While this is less than the average wage in Australia it should be noted:

• It is essentially a contract for 4-5 months of the year, which would make this rate higher than the minimum wage in Australia
• Players are not contracted for the rest of the year and are free to seek employment with other clubs
• This rate is higher than the unemployment payments in Australia
• They are getting paid the same weekly rate as the players in the A-league (but less in total because of the shorter season)
• These are the minimums and there are players who are making considerably more

The question comes down to where do you draw the line between professional and semi-professional and how much is 'enough' to live on. My view is that it is a professional league and should be added to the list Playlet (talk) 01:41, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

If it's only a contract for a few months of the year then surely they're not fully pro by definition and the fact that they are on higher than minimum wage is only on a pro rate basis? Fenix down (talk) 07:57, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

• We can't call it a fully professional league unfortunately, players often play for multiple teams in a season around the world, playing for the Victory doesn't pay well enough for that player to have one job, that of playing for the Victory. SportingFlyer T·C 01:03, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

A few arguments have crystalised in my mind since I wrote the first post, so I hope you will indulge me one more post on the topic: The gap between amateur and semi professional is clear. One you get paid nothing, and as soon as you get paid $1 you are semi professional However the gap between the semi-professional and professional is a very grey area. As far as I can see there are 4 dividing lines that can be drawn (and no doubt others could find other lines beyond these four)
a) Receiving a payment above the poverty line of the country in question
b) Receiving a payment above the total unemployment benefits of the country in question
c) A payment above the average minimum wages for a contract equivalent to the length of the season (that is the amount you could expect to receive for a 4 month contract compared to a 4 month season)
d) A payment equivalent to an average ANNUAL wage, even though the season is considerably shorter than a full year
The W-league would fulfill conditions a)-c) but would fail on d)
I am willing to concede that if it were a men's competition that I would not be having this debate and would not be fighting for it to listed as a fully professional league.
However, women's sport as a whole has been suppressed over the years, and abandoned to the amateur ranks. Now that it is on the ascendancy, we should not be judging it as harshly and potentially applying one of the more lenient measures to judge both the W-league and more women's leagues around the world. In short it is beyond belief that only 2 women's leagues in the world are considered professional, and if that is the case then perhaps we are measuring the women's leagues too harshly and we should be cutting them some slack.Playlet (talk) 13:28, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

• @Playlet: I entirely understand where you're coming from, and I'd love to be able to add the W-League to the list, but unfortunately the "fully professional leagues" list is simply a proxy as to whether a player has received reliable significant coverage in secondary sources, as we assume any player in a league which allows them to have football be their only job would also lend itself to WP:GNG-style coverage. A sample glance of a redlinked W-League player I picked at quasi-random - I used Alexia Moreno from Perth Glory - I couldn't find enough on her in reliable secondary sources that would convince me she would pass a deletion discussion, which would have convinced me the rules needed to be bent. Compare to redlinked Carly Leeson for the Melbourne Renegades in the cricket which receives substantially more press here, who I believe needs an article. SportingFlyer T·C 13:55, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

• I think SportingFlyer is correct here (though I haven't checked the references). For men, the line between players typically receiving GNG coverage or not, is about the point the teams are fully professional, or players have national team or Olympic final appearances. One could argue for a sport where the amount of money involved is different, that the line might be different. But the basis for that is surely involving GNG and not $. If we were to look at a typical team, and find that 90% of the players with more than a couple of appearances have GNG coverage, then I think many could support additional criteria for womens teams. Nfitz (talk) 17:01, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Possible addition of the National Football League (South Africa) into WP:FPL

So I was browsing the May 1959 article because my alternate history timeline is up to that part and I noticed that their was a date for when South Africa had a professional league with this link stating that professional football in South Africa started in 1959 with the National Football League. So I am asking if this is a notable enough reference that @Mandsford: has put up. HawkAussie (talk) 07:42, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Status of 3rd-level pro-football in Russia

A user at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Artyom Alimchev has raised the question as to whether or not Russian Professional Football League is really fully pro. Questions and thoughts on that? ミラP 02:14, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

In reality, WP:FPL is not a list of "fully-pro" leagues, it is a list of leagues of sufficient stature that by playing in them a player is assumed to receive sufficient coverage to be notable per GNG. It is clear from a number of recent AFDs that the Russian third-tier does not fit with this. As such I would be happy to remove the league from the list. GiantSnowman 09:17, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

I completely concur with GiantSnowman except for the "fully-pro" comment - with a couple exceptions (was it Norway where an amateur team randomly made the top flight?) if a league isn't fully pro there's no way it will be on the list. Don't know why the Russian 3rd league was ever listed. SportingFlyer T·C 11:52, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

I'd agree with the comments above. Whilst the sources provided indicate a degree of professionalism, the official document provided as one of the sources specifically does not mandate full professionalism at all clubs, in fact it specifically discusses both fully professional and semi-professional players: "В заявочный лист по форме «А» могут включаться футболисты, имеющие трудовые договоры сКлубом (футболисты-профессионалы), и выполняющие трудовую функцию спортсмена в клубе на условиях внешнего совместительства (т.е. имеющие иное основное место работы у другого работодателя)." which seems to me that whilst there is a requirement for players to have formal employment contracts with their club at this level, there is specifically no requirement for them to be full time contracts. Fenix down (talk) 13:16, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

I found an interview with a footballer who played in the RPFL with FC Khimik Dzerzhinsk that strongly suggests it is not a fully-pro league:

– Ты поиграл в нескольких командах второго дивизиона. В какой было наиболее комфортно?

– Интересно было в дзержинском «Химике», где нас тренировал Владимир Казаков, известный бывший футболист московского «Торпедо». В Дзержинске не было денег, так он кормил футболистов со своих, возил на игры за свой счет. На тренировки на машине отвозил. Перед началом сезона мне понравилась его речь: «Мне без разницы, кто где играл: высшая лига, первая или вторая. У вас есть неделя – докажите, что вы игроки основного состава». При этом на тренировках мы вообще не бегали – набирали кондиции только через «физику». А когда он увидел, как я работаю с мячом, то пошел в «Адидас», купил маленький мяч и ежедневно давал мне задания.

Google Translate tells me that there was no money at the club and the coach (famous former footballer, Vladimir Kazakov) spent his own money feeding and driving the club's players to practice and matches. How could they be full-time professionals in those circumstances? Jogurney (talk) 18:47, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear cut it is not fully pro. Are people happy we have consensus to remove and deal with the flood of AfD that will happen? Fenix down (talk) 07:59, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I think we're at four votes to nil, what's quorum? SportingFlyer T·C 08:06, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

No such thing as a quorum, just consensus, which is clear. Let's see a bit if anyone else pops up to provide evidence to the contrary, but if not then we should remove it shortly. GiantSnowman 10:56, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Of course, was being a bit tongue-in-cheek. SportingFlyer T·C 11:35, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

This player meant 100% that the club had money issues, and the coach had to pay players from his own pocket to compensate for that. I also don't see him mentioning any other source of income except being a football player. It's pretty far-fetched conclusion to decide that league is not FPL based on this one interview. Let's also exclude some leagues that had financially struggling teams like Bolton, Parma, Leiria, shall we?--BlameRuiner (talk) 05:25, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

• We've discussed in a couple of places. No indication that this league is fully-profesional. Shouldn't be listed as FPL. Nfitz (talk) 18:14, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I just wanted to apologize to reverting the edit that was the result of the discussion earlier today, I actually agree with the consensus here after reading through the regulations in more detail. Sorry. Geregen2 (talk) 15:59, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

@Geregen2: no apology needed! :) GiantSnowman 16:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Just to get started, I am starting to compile a list of players that have only played in the third tier of Russian football and I can see that this is going to be one long list of players. The list so far is over here. HawkAussie (talk) 02:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

@HawkAussie: Each one should have a WP:BEFORE done on both their English and Russian names before sending them to WP:PROD. ミラP 03:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

@Miraclepine: I will do that once I have the full list of players that have only played in the third tier. HawkAussie (talk) 04:46, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

@HawkAussie: @Miraclepine: Hiya, I believe I marked all the current RPFL players who never played in the top-two levels of Russian football for PROD. I am checking everybody's career to make sure they only played in RPFL (if the team was relegated to RPFL, but the player played for it in the FNL, they should be kept). Now I am going through the players who are not on the active RPFL rosters, backwards by birth year. I am also trying to limit PROD-s to maybe 100 a day or so going forward. Should take a bit of time to clean all of them up. Geregen2 (talk) 21:52, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

• Russian football expert: The third tier of Russian football is officially considered to be a pro division. Yes, the level is not great, but how can we assess the level itself? This is more about the sadly low level of some parts of Russian football than about it being fully pro (what does that even mean to be fully pro?) There are some arguments that those clubs do not have money - yes, but some fully pro clubs all over the world go bankrupt, which doesn't mean they are not "pro clubs."

So either the rules for the "pro football list" should be reassessed to include the "level check," than this league randomly be down from the list.

• • There are concepts related to all this in Russian laws. There is "основное место работы" (main employer) who is supposed to maintain your "трудовая книжка" (Employment record book). You can also work extra jobs on the side (as long as you fulfill your obligations to the main employer), that's called "совместительство" ("part-time" or "moonlighting"). To be a "professional footballer" (футболист-профессионал), your main employer has to be a football club. If your main job is, say, as a barber, or a banker, and you play football in your free time, you are not a "professional footballer". However, as quoted above in this discussion "В заявочный лист по форме «А» могут включаться футболисты.... выполняющие трудовую функцию спортсмена в клубе на условиях внешнего совместительства (т.е. имеющие иное основное место работы у другого работодателя)" - approximately "players who work outside of football and moonlight as footballers can be registered with the league". If your league allows moonlighters, it is not fully professional. There are no mentions of moonlighting in the regulations for the Russian second tier (Russian Football National League) or first tier (Russian Premier League). There is actually an example from last year's RPFL - as a publicity stunt, FC KAMAZ Naberezhnye Chelny signed a hockey player Artyom Lukoyanov for one game, fielded him for five minutes and then he moved back to hockey. I highly doubt that he changed the "primary employer" or actually went through all the employment record book paperwork for one week. I'm sure there are some RPFL players whose primary legal employment is something else, this was just a high-profile example that came to mind right away and was covered widely. Geregen2 (talk) 19:49, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

IMO the criterion about professionalism must be tightened. Regardless the discussed club pro or not, the 3rd tier itself cannot possibly be presumed notable. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:34, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

In England, where football is the national obsession, playing in the top 4 tiers confers notability (and there could be argument for the 5th). GiantSnowman 13:35, 23 November 2019 (UTC)