Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 42

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Dates for three Scandivian countries

So I was looking through the Afd of Lennart Fridh and @Bring back Daz Sampson: has put up an interesting source relating to his Professionalism in Swedish football area where their is a PDF in the first source. This source after looking at resembles the possible dates professional football that is legalized. These dates resembling in 1967 (Sweden), Denmark (1978) and Norway (1991). These three dates could be helpful in determining the possible starting point for these leagues and where they turned professional. HawkAussie (talk) 03:57, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Should We add (from 1967) to Sweden and (from 1978) to Denmark unless anyone thinks that we should move the year even further forward than those? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:49, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy for these dates to be implemented for Sweden and Denmark; I think Norway needs more discussion given the recent implementation of 2001. GiantSnowman 14:53, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

The fact that something became legal doesn't mean it became widespread. Eg. homosexuality was decriminalised in England and Wales in the same year, but that didn't mean everyone immediately became gay! I was still working on the Sweden info, which is why I hadn't posted it here yet. Looking at the evidence compiled so far I think it's obvious that, like Norway, the sort of cultural zeitgeist was against full-time professional football in Sweden until the 21st Century at the very earliest. I'd be very surprised if "virtually all adult players are paid a salary that they can live on and do not need additional sources of income" at present. In 2019 only 90% of male players came into this bracket and 50% female. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 17:45, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Denmark I haven't really looked at yet but the bits I have seen point to the formation of the Danish Superliga in 1991. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 17:46, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Is this "fully professional"? Were the 168 part-timers all "outliers"?

“ Of the 315 players who participated in the 1998 Allsvenskan, fewer than half (147) were full-time professional footballers. Many were students, while just over a quarter (81) had full-time jobs outside football, although this proportion had substantially reduced from previous seasons. ”

I oppose any suggestions that the Swedish, Danish, and even Norwegian leagues should be taken off the list or amnended. I recall an addendum that top tier leagues were presumed notable before non-professional status anyways and I posit that most these players would pass WP:GNG to begin with.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:11, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps if you had got on board with my requested move we might have been able accommodate these sorts of unqualified/unevidenced opinions here. But as it stands they are totally irrelevant and you constantly repeating them is tantamount to spam. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 15:06, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

I disagree, addendums are always possible. And I counter that if my comments are spam then so are yours.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:22, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Greek Super League 2

So is that not fully-pro anymore? Govvy (talk) 10:34, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• Based on? SportingFlyer T·C 16:30, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Well in the list it says until 2019, so I was confused at that, was trying to verify a new player article earlier. Govvy (talk) 16:37, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

The until 2019 applies to the Football League. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:08, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Okay, then maybe we need to put that in brackets, because it also looks like it's counting League 2 also. Govvy (talk) 23:23, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

There's a comma separating Super League Greece 2 from Football League. There are multiple similar instances, such as Mexico, Hong Kong, France, etc. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 23:27, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Doesn't help a dyslexic person now does it! Not very clear in retrospect. :/ Govvy (talk) 10:28, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

I think ideally the Super League 2 should have a source attached to it, which would further help distinguish it from the Football League. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:04, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

According to this article, 70% of players in the Super League 2 are paid minimum wage. This other article seems to suggest that lower-tier clubs are, at best, having difficulties paying their players with regularity. Is there any basis to keep the league as fully-pro? Many of this is probably down to the current COVID-19 situation, but still. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 20:31, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

And that's another thing, the Greek economy crashed (Greek government-debt crisis) and still has major problems, this in turn surely effects the football leagues there. Govvy (talk) 11:27, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Interestingly, this 2019 article states that while the average Super League footballer earns about 10x more than the average Greek citizen, 31.5% had salaries of below 934 euros. To me, between the crisis and COVID, the status of the Super League is proportionally comparable to that of the Super League 2. I wouldn't be against keeping the SL2 using the sources above. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:53, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Players debutting in national and league cups

Hi. If a player made his debut in professional football in a cup instead in the league is notable? For example if a player make his debut in FA Cup or in Carabao Cup is notable? Dr Salvus (talk) 17:32, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

@Dr Salvus: If both teams are from professional leagues, yes. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:39, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: I know pages of players that the only professional presence is in the FA Cup against an amateur team. An example of such a footballer is Alfie Devine Dr Salvus (talk) 21:45, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

@Dr Salvus: - Devine fails WP:NFOOTY but he does pass WP:GNG which is why he is considered notable. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 21:50, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Belarusian First League

I cant see how this can possibly be professional/notable. Based on this, the average attendance is around 350, which is what you typically get at step 3 of English non-league. I don't understand Russian so it would be great if someone could see what is actually stated in the source, but the extract from it doesn't seem to suggest full professionalism to me. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 18:35, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

You seem to have linked the RSSSF page for the Belarussian season (which is in English, not Russian). But yeah, an average of about 250 is very low. I'm surprised it's listed as a pro league, I though you were talking about the first division. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 20:48, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree it cannot be fully professional and should be removed from the list. GiantSnowman 21:11, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: - I meant the source provided on the list - [1] Microwave Anarchist (talk) 21:25, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Ahh ok sorry, got it. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:29, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Is it possible to get a source that it's non professional? I don't feel comfortable removing it from the list without something tangible backing it up. Slippery slope and whatnot--Ortizesp (talk) 22:54, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

The reasoning should go the other way. We should find a source that proves that it is fully-pro. There is the Russian PDF linked above, but ideally we need someone who speaks Russian to translate it for us. It's often difficult to find a source (especially in Russian) which explicitly says "The Belarusian First League is not professional". Since the PDF is the source being used to demonstrate its professionalism, we need to make sure that it is actually proving it is fully-pro. If not, the league should be removed unless another source which proves it is fully-pro can be found. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 23:09, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

I would argue without further clarification, the source actually cited is not sufficient to justify inclusion. If I'm understanding the translations correctly, the source seems to only apply to the one season, probably 2009 judging by the dates. The part highlighted in the citation only says that clubs have to submit copies of their players' labour contracts to the ABFF (I'm assuming that's the Belarusian FA) to be allowed to participate in the championship. It provides no details on the nature of these contracts, so semi-professionalism seems at least possible. Sir Sputnik (talk) 23:43, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, I've been BOLD and have removed it. I hope there are no players up who have been created solely for having played in the Belarusian 2nd tier... Nehme₁₄₉₉ 00:06, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - I'll ping @BlameRuiner: to see if they have any knowledge, as a Belarusian, on this. I, too, was fairly surprised to see it on the list. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:42, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Thanks for pinging me. I don't watch this page so I wasn't aware of this discussion. Let me add some comments. 1) The document that was used as a source is a bit outdated, here's the more recent one from 2020: [2]. Some sections were rephrased and rearranged since 2009, but the main part remained the same: First League clubs can only use players with professional contracts, with the exception of youth players that belong to the academy of said club, or conscripted players (in case a club has a partnership with a nearby military base - there are no stats as to how many people fall into this category, but it's what the regulation says. It's the same for Premier League, actually). 2) In a country like Belarus, the league attendance cannot be used as a merit of professionalism, simply because the clubs don't profit from it. You don't seriously think it makes any difference if it's 300 vs 2,500? I just quickly googled and found that a season pass for Shakhtyor Soligorsk (the current champions) costs 20 to 50 rubles (which is roughly 7 to 15 Euro). All of our clubs' money come from sponsorships, ~95% of which is from state-owned enterprises. Plus BATE had about 10 years of good UEFA money flow, but that's gone after they failed to reach GS for many years by now. 3) Honestly, even if the final assessment will exclude the league from fully-pro level, it may affect like 5 players, tops. I never created articles for First League players because their level is below my own notability bar. --BlameRuiner (talk) 20:09, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
    • @BlameRuiner: Brilliant, thanks. By 'professional', would it imply that the players are full-time or just that they are under paid contract? Microwave Anarchist (talk) 20:28, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
      • The text doesn't imply nor specify one way or the other, I'm afraid. --BlameRuiner (talk) 07:46, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
• Comment As far as I can tell, that source shows the average attendance per game is about 2,500, very different from 300. @Microwave Anarchist:, where are you getting 300 from? Absent a satisfactory explanation, I would support readding it for the moment. Smartyllama (talk) 18:30, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Comment: Why is average attendance being used as a proxy for a league's professional status anyway? Seany91 (talk) 18:34, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

@Smartyllama: I think you're looking at the Belarusian Premier League, rather than the First League. @Seany91: - it's not. The league's professional status was unsourced, and I merely used the average attendance to make the point that it is unlikely to be an FPL, given how little money is in the game. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 18:38, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

@Microwave Anarchist: I support your proposal; just wanted to cut off this particular line of argument using average attendance as evidence for professional status. Seany91 (talk) 06:51, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

@Microwave Anarchist: The league's professional status was sourced, this is a professional league (professional contract means professional contrqact, full time players), so it belongs to the list. Using attendance as a criteria is irrelevant and OR.Ludost Mlačani (talk) 12:56, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

@Ludost Mlačani: paid players ≠ professionalism, and the editors who have been kind enough to analyse the source for me suggest that the source suggested nothing more than they are under contract, meaning semi-professionalism seems likely. If you have a source that shows it meets the fully-professional criteria, then I would be more than happy to have another look at the league. Though, to be honest, any notability guideline that suggests all players to have played in the Belarusian First League are notable is a stupid notability guideline in my opinion. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 13:19, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

No, the source does not suggest that, read it again please. Only profesional players can compete in the league (and youth academy players of course) and there is a clear definition: Футболисты, участвующие в соревнованиях, проводимых под эгидой АБФФ, являются любителями либо профессионалами (не любителями). Футболист обретает статус профессионала с момента заключения контракта с профессиональным футбольным клубом с целью участия в соревнованиях.Футболист-профессионал –это игрок, который имеет письменный контракт с клубом и получает за свою футбольную деятельность доход сверх компенсации понесенных расходов. Деятельность футболиста–профессионала регламентируется действующим законодательством Республики Беларусь, уставными документами и регламентами ФИФА, УЕФА и АБФФ. And you said everything about yourself with the last sentence. I am surprised and shocked about such humiliating, biased and ignorant stance against a league you personally do not like. As you said it is just your opinion. It has nothing to do with the policy. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 16:04, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

@Ludost Mlačani: Google Translate has translated that to:

Football players participating in ABFF-sponsored competitions are either amateurs or professionals (not amateurs). A footballer attains professional status from the date of contracting with a professional football club to compete. A professional footballer is a player who has a written contract with the club and receives income from his football activities in addition to reimbursement of expenses incurred. The activities of a professional football player are regulated by the current legislation of the Republic of Belarus, statutory documents and regulations of FIFA, UEFA and ABFF.

That, to me at least, suggests there is not even a requirement for all players to be 'professionals' (with it definiting professional as ;not amateur'), though I could attribute this to errors in translation. But, even so, this does not prove or suggest the league meets the status of full-professionalism, as it does not prove players 'do not need additional sources of income', that the salary is a 'living wage', or that it extends to 'sufficient contact hours, and facilities, equipment, expenses and other support as necessary to allow full-time pursuit of the sport'. This is not a 'humiliating, biased and ignorant stance against a league you personally do not like'; I know sod all about Belarusian football and couldn't care less about whether or not this league was on the list if it wasn't for the fact that having leagues like this on the list undermines the integrity of this list, the guideline and the WikiProject as a whole. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 18:08, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

The requirement is in the other paragraph, I thought we already established that. Here is just the definition of professional players you said is lacking. Read the whole document. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 21:54, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

@Ludost Mlačani: - I can't - I don't speak the langauge. And the definition of professional we have here is that they are paid, which is far from fully-professional. Unless you can provide some solid evidence that shows this league meets the FPL criteria, I suggest you just WP:DROPTHESTICK. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 22:28, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

If you do not speak the language, how can you then remove the league from the list. You should drop the stick. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 23:10, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Microwave Anarchist makes a valid point. Having a written contract and having expenses reimbursed could just as likely be true of a semi-pro club as well. It doesn't necessarily guarantee that the league is fully pro. MA is asking difficult questions but they need to be asked. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:56, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Just to give an example: my friends who play in the Italian 9th tier get reimbursed for travel and miscellaneous expenses (a few hundred euros a year). There is no way one could define them as "professionals". Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:58, 9 March 2021 (UTC)