Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jazz/Popular pages

Jazz/not jazz: the first ten

Starting with the top ten, are all of these people jazz musicians?

1. Diana Ross
2. Della Reese
3. Barbra Streisand
4. Frank Sinatra
5. Woody Allen
6. Seth MacFarlane
7. Amy Winehouse
8. Gregory Porter
9. Bing Crosby
10. Ray Charles

Let me first say that I'm not making a value judgment or a moral judgment. There's nothing wrong with not being a jazz singer, just as there is nothing inherently good about being a jazz singer. It's not a contest. These are all good singers.

Women first. I'm unaware of Diana Ross doing much jazz singing, having built her career at Motown with the Supremes. AllMusic calls her R&B, pop, and rock. Della Reese has recorded jazz. She started her career with the Erskine Hawkins Orchestra in 1953, then recorded with Jubilee and RCA Victor. Barbara Streisand? AllMusic says vocal, pop/rock, stage/screen but not jazz. I'm unaware of any jazz singing done by Streisand, except perhaps early in her career and some traditional pop standards. Amy Winehouse does get listed under jazz at AllMusic. I don't know how much jazz singing she did other than record a couple duets with Tony Bennett.

That brings us to the men. Traditional pop and jazz singing overlap, if only in the public mind, so although Frank Sinatra is sometimes dismissed as jazz singer it would be foolish to dismiss him. Bing Crosby sings pop and jazz. He started his career with the Paul Whiteman orchestra and hosted a radio show with Eddie Lang as his sidekick. I don't usually think of Ray Charles as jazz. More R&B, blues, soul, pop, which is verified by AllMusic's categorization. Seth MacFarlane, creator and voice actor of Family Guy, seems to take his vocal career seriously. He's been classified as jazz and swing and received a Grammy nomination for Best Traditional Pop Vocal Album. AllMusic classifies Gregory Porter as jazz and contemporary jazz, though the bio adds soul and gospel. His mentor was jazz saxphonist and pianist Kamau Kenyatta. He started his career singing backup for jazz flautist Hubert Laws.

That leaves Woody Allen. Hmm. He's a jazz fan, includes jazz in his movies, plays clarinet, and has performed with the Preservation Hall Jazz Band, but his career is as a screenwriter and director. He's not notable as a musician and hasn't recorded. I'm not sure about this one.

For those of you keeping score at home, this is my list from the current top ten most popular pages. Those listed "not jazz" ought to be removed from Wikiproject Jazz. A secondary consideration is going through the article and removing where they are called jazz, such as the infobox and categories, provided this is done so within the rules of Wikipedia. Sometimes it involves a fight, or at least research, debate, and attempts at persuasion. Usually there's someone who doesn't like it, but that can't be avoided when you are in search of the facts.

1. Diana Ross (not jazz)
2. Della Reese (jazz)
3. Barbra Streisand (not jazz)
4. Frank Sinatra (jazz)
5. Woody Allen (uncertain)
6. Seth MacFarlane (jazz)
7. Amy Winehouse (uncertain)
8. Gregory Porter (jazz)
9. Bing Crosby (jazz)
10. Ray Charles (not jazz)
    –Vmavanti (talk) 19:23, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Streisand can go; "jazz" doesn't appear in her lengthy article. Allen is fine: he has recorded (review) and has received coverage for at least one international tour (which would be enough in itself to justify an article, based on WP:MUSICBIO). Sinatra and Porter are fine. I see no evidence for including MacFarlane (charting in a "jazz chart" isn't enough for me), but maybe there is some. The same goes for Ross. I'm not bothered about Reese, Winehouse or Crosby (borderline for me). I lean towards including Charles, as some of his recordings are listed as being jazz and he's in the Rough Guide (but not Penguin). EddieHugh (talk) 20:35, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Winehouse's article has plenty of mentions of jazz. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:02, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

True; at least one source for really being a jazz singer in the very early days. EddieHugh (talk) 23:21, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

• On Winehouse, Ross and Charles, I refer you to my 25 December 2017 and 3 January 2018 comments on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jazz. AllyD (talk) 09:04, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

To be clear, I'm not commenting about the Wikiproject tags found on talk pages. Members of this project can decide on what they want to do with those. I do object to article content being affected because one editor thinks frauds have invaded his club. Also, any remotely controversial decision taken here to remove the jazz genre from an article will likely rightfully be challenged via revert and/or discussion on the article's talk page resulting in discussion being rehashed. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 10:54, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

You have misrepresented my position, thus making it easy to ridicule. I'm not forming a club. Those are already formed. I'm simply questioning their principles of selection, assuming that any exist. Many people dislike questions. All of my efforts on Wikipedia are directed to making it better. My intent is to give people the information they are looking for so that they can find something that is factual rather than false. As an experienced editor, I discourage the slapdash use of language. Jazz is already defined broadly on the Wikiproject and elsewhere. My guess is that few people in the jazz world, wherever that may be, would have a problem with the judgments I've made. But I probably do have too little patience with immature bullshit.
–Vmavanti (talk) 00:38, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

@Vmavanti: Do you understand the Wikiproject definition of jazz has little bearing on whether on not the jazz genre appears in the infobox of an article (if it has one)? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:45, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

My advice to you is to read what I've written, or for matter what anyone has written, stop and think about it, spend some time reflecting, more than seven seconds, and try to avoid responding impulsively. That way leads to progress.
–Vmavanti (talk) 00:48, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

@Vmavanti: I have read what you wrote. It seems you want to decide what is "factual rather than false" based on your opinion rather than sourced article content. This is reinforced by your statement that Natalie Cole falls into the "uncertain" camp. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:55, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Jazz/not jazz second group

If I do only ten at a time, this will take too long. I'm going to put some ideas down to see what objections there are. If anyone reads these pages, they can comment. Breaking the list up makes it easier to read. Is this jazz?

• Dean Martin (uncertain)
• Frank Zappa (no, but some will debate this)
• Glenn Miller (yes)
• Randy Jackson (uncertain)
• Michael Bublé (yes)
• Quincy Jones (yes)
• John Coltrane (yes)
• Louis Armstrong (yes)
• Sade (singer) (not jazz)
• Eartha Kitt (uncertain)
• Jazz (yes)
• Miles Davis (yes)
• Harry Connick Jr. (yes)
• Nina Simone (yes)
• Linda Ronstadt (uncertain, I say no)
• Billie Holiday (yes)
• Nat King Cole (yes)
• Sammy Davis Jr. (uncertain)
• Norah Jones (yes)
• Duke Ellington (yes)
• George Gershwin (yes)
• Steely Dan (no)
• Blues (no)
• Tony Bennett (yes)
• Jelly Roll Morton (yes)
• Ella Fitzgerald (yes)
• Natalie Cole (uncertain)
• B.B. King (no)
• Langston Hughes (uncertain, not a musician)
• Baby, It's Cold Outside (yes)
  –Vmavanti (talk) 00:20, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

• Are you reading the articles to check what sources say? It's kind of hard to believe you have if you have a three-time nominated, one-time winner of a Grammy award for jazz as "uncertain" --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:28, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Who? This is off the top of my head except for "no" and "uncertain". The idea is to see what kind of response I get, if any. I research anything that's debatable. I'm going to try to err on the side of caution, but I have my own ideas about what that means. I can't see including Diana Ross. I would include Seth MacFarlane, though I understand how it could be debated. Linda Ronstadt probably stays. She did a couple albums with Nelson Riddle, but that's it. There's a lot of overlap here with pop and traditional pop. It will be interesting to see what names appear when the people who aren't jazz are removed from the list.
–Vmavanti (talk) 00:40, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Natalie Cole. Basically I have one criteria - the article. If there's no or little mention of jazz then take out the genre. If the article covers appearances at jazz festivals, names whole albums as being considered as jazz, and/or mentions major jazz awards then leave the genre in. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 01:18, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Of course. But the article has to be right. People do a lot of name dropping and other shenanigans to try to elevate the musician they admire. There's a club called jazz now that many people want to belong to. It would be a disservice to the real musicians if the frauds were admitted and got all the attention.
–Vmavanti (talk) 03:52, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

• Blues (no)... really? From Louis Armstrong and Bessie Smith, through Charlie Parker, to Ornette Coleman or to other strands such as soul jazz, this is crucial. AllyD (talk) 09:18, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

My point is that blues and jazz are not interchangeable. So long as people know that, and some don't. But of course there's a connection. Per your request, this discussion continues back at the home office of the Talk Page at Wikiproject Jazz.
–Vmavanti (talk) 15:49, 3 January 2018 (UTC)