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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport/Archive 23

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Latest comment: 2 years ago by X750 in topic IMSA GTP
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WP:NMOTORSPORTS

Latest comment: 3 years ago31 comments6 people in discussion

I'm really getting concerned about some parts the Motorsports SNG. Specifically about points two and three of it:

2. Predate the sharp distinction between professional and amateur (prior to World War II).

3. Competed in a series or race of worldwide or national interest (for example, the American Championship or 24 Hours of Le Mans).

What is point 2 even supposed to me. Everyone who was involved in motorsports in any way who lived prior to World War II is notable?? That's so ridiculously vague it's useless.

As for point 3, I agree with the worldwide part, but I think the part of "national interest" sets the bar way to low. I strongly contest that everyone who competed in any national championship in any country, no matter how small, around the world is automatically notable.Tvx1 22:43, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I would agree with scrapping point two. Driving a racing car in 1936 does not make someone notable. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 23:06, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Regarding point three: I would interpret "of national interest" as meaning "likely to receive wide coverage across the nation"; so the Nascar Cup Series, British Touring Car Championship, or Turismo Carretera would all count towards that, but ARCA or the Renault Clio Cup wouldn't. That being said, even with the Cup Series or the BTCC I would prefer to judge a driver's notability on the pure WP:GNG grounds. I don't think it's ethical for us to try and make some BTCC backmarker from thirty-years ago WP:FAMOUS. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 23:06, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
The first thing to note is that passing that criteria means you are presumed notable - it doesn't make you notable. It just means that the person is more likely to be notable than not. That being said - the bar is set incredibly low. Predating the "sharp distinction" doesn't make any sense and should be scraped. I agree with HumanBodyPiloter5's assessment of what criteria 3 means - but also think the bar is set to low. Is someone who competed in one season of BTCC and came last notable, I doubt it. SSSB (talk) 09:24, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Realistically I think the bar at which we can presume drivers to be notable is quite high. I can't really comment on series that don't receive much coverage in the English-speaking world, but in terms of those that do I think Formula One drivers who have competed in World Championship Grands Prix are the only group where we could reliably assume that 100% of the members would pass WP:GNG. I think that our criteria for WP:NMOTORSPORTS could extend beyond that; post-merger IndyCar Series drivers probably being the group which fits the bill most definitively. However, I think for many series we need to limit the scope of WP:NMOTORSPORTS to only drivers who have at least scored podiums, if not won races or even championships. The current criteria are far too vague and we need to have something more solid in place. The biggest hassle might be the Nascar Cup Series. I don't know if the transition between the pre-modern and modern eras (1973ish?) is recent enough that we could reasonably establish that all competitors after that point would pass WP:GNG; however I cannot see any other logical points to place a cutoff without it turning into a somewhat arbitrary subjective mess. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 14:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
I also agree there are serious issues with NMOTORSPORTS, but I feel that even point 1 is ridiculous. "Have driven in a race in a fully professional series" is either an extremely high, or extremely low bar. The example given, of the Trans Am series, is at least currently an extremely low bar. The definition of professional is also quite vague given in many cases prizemoney is not something which gets published, and is in the "modern era" (draw your own line in the sand on that one) is not really the primary way that entrants make money, they do so via sponsorship (and many series which surely pass the spirit of NMOTORSPORTS do not have much prizemoney). I have a hard time working out exactly what point 2 is trying to say, but I would strongly disagree that today there is a sharp distinction between professional and amateur racing. I would argue that, for example, "pay drivers" in F1 or the Supercars Championship (etc) could be considered amateur. I also agree that someone driving prior to WW2 should not automatically be considered notable, but I also don't think they should be artificially held to higher standards if they weren't strictly professional. I don't see as much of an issue with point 3, and indeed it nicely replaces points 1 and 2. Whether it should be reworded slightly to make it a tighter requirement I don't know, but certainly it is more meaningful than points 1 or 2, and anyone meeting the spirit of points 1 and 2 would be captured by it. I also don't see points 4 or 6 as reflecting the status quo so probably need to be reworded also. A7V2 (talk) 23:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Proposal

Having thought further about this, I would like to propose that we reword the criteria to something along these lines:

While many motorsport figures who do not meet these guidelines will still meet the WP:GNG, the following competitors can be presumed notable with a high degree of certainty:

  1. Drivers or riders who have qualified for any of the following events:
  2. Drivers or riders who have competed for at least one full season in any of the following series:
  3. Drivers or riders who have finished on the overall podium of any of the following events:
  4. Drivers, riders, or co-drivers who have won any of the following events overall:
  5. Drivers or riders who have won any of the following championship titles:
    • The overall championship title of any series in the previous category without winning a race (a relatively common occurrence in series whose points-scoring systems favour consistent finishes over inconsistent victories).
    • A major championship in which a large number of the competitors are amateur "gentleman" drivers or privateers, such as the European Le Mans Series, Intercontinental GT Challenge, or European Rally Championship.
  6. Have owned or been team principal for a team in a major racing series (Formula One, WRC, MotoGP, Formula E, IndyCar, DTM, Super GT, Nascar Cup Series, V8 Supercars, CART, or top-level IMSA) for a full season or more. This includes Cup Series crew chiefs.
  7. Have been enshrined in any notable motorsports hall of fame.
  8. Hold or have held a significant motorsports record, such as a land speed record.

I believe that changing the guideline to something like this would result in it becoming far clearer; discouraging both the creation of WP:BLPs of non-notable figures (who it isn't our job to make WP:FAMOUS) and deletion nominations for drivers who are clearly notable to anyone with a knowledge of the subject, but whose articles are poorly sourced (such as that case a month-or-two ago where an unsourced article on a 1960s F1 driver got nominated for deletion, only for a reasonable number of offline sources to emerge during the nomination).

Creating a concise proposal was somewhat challenging, as the remit of WP:MOTORSPORTS is far broader than most other sports. In that regard it may also be worth considering (possibly down the line) whether WP:NMOTORSPORTS needs to be split-up somewhat so separate guidelines on more peripheral topics can be created by those with a better knowledge of them than most editors of motorsport-related articles. That is probably a question for another time, however.

HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 17:12, 16 September 2021 (UTC)HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 12:49, 17 September 2021 (UTC)HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 13:01, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
I think that is a good effort - which may need revisiting in a year or so after we have seen it in action. But, as you say, Motorsport covers a very broad range of quite distinct categories - 2 wheels, 4-wheels, open-wheeler, closed-top, circuit or cross-country racing etc etc, most of which often have mutually-exclusive personnel. And then throw in that team managers/engineers/designers can have an equally large impact in the sport to add a further layer. I would venture to suggest perhaps point 1 & 2 is limited further to those who have had a top-10 finish in a race in said series (but its not vital), as many people have popped in for a single-appearance and then vanished without a trace. But policing a proliferation of such stub articles getting created can be handled by other means than the notability argument. Overall though, a good start for further discussion and adoption Philby NZ (talk) 00:44, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Regarding point 1, I based the criteria there upon my familiarity with sourcing and previous deletion nominations of competitor's biographies. Take Marco Apicella as an example. Only one start in F1, but still clearly passes the WP:GNG based upon what sourcing is available online and in English, let alone any offline sources or sources in other languages (ie. Italian or Japanese). HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 12:57, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
I support these changes in general. There are some categorisations I diagree with (is FIA Formula 2 Championship of significant international importance? I'm not sure I agree.) The second bullet point under criteria 3 needs rewording: Le Mans and Bathurst weren't pre-war Championships but the proposed wording makes it sound like they are. SSSB (talk) 10:12, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
I have tweaked the wording to move the "pre-war..." part to after Le Mans and Bathurst. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 12:50, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Regarding Formula 2, I based my wording there upon my familiarity with existing sourcing. Making a couple of starts in F2 is unlikely to make somebody notable, but I think in the vast majority of cases there will be enough sourcing out there after a driver has competed in a full season to meet the WP:GNG. That being said, if others disagree the wording could be changed to not use F2 as an example. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 12:57, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Your probably right concerning the sources. The problem is that the sources aren't because Formula 2 is of international importance, but because it is an F1 feeder series. I suggest we move Formula 2 to a seperate bullet point, something like: [drivers are presumed notable if they participate in a full season of] a feeder series of a major series, such as FIA Formula 2 (feeder to Formula One) or Indy Lights (feeder to Indy Car season). (I used Indy Lights as an example I have no idea if it belongs in the same notablilty bracket as F2) SSSB (talk) 15:12, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
I don't think Indy Lights has the same international importance as Formula 2, and some of its recent seasons have seen extremely sparse fields. I can see an argument for grouping F2, GP2, and International F3000 into their own bullet point as the main feeder series of Formula One, however. We could probably do the same with Moto2 and its predecessors. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 15:35, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
@SSSB: Perhaps the proposal could be ammended by changing point 2 to read:
2. Drivers or riders who have competed for at least one full season in any of the following series:
This would resolve the issue of whether or not feeder series are of international importance, and by using a now-defunct series like the World Touring Car Championship as an example we could avoid leaning too hard into WP:PRESENTISM and ensure that the guideline reminds those referencing it that notability is not temporary. I think singling out F2 like that would probably also set a precedent that F3 drivers should not be presumed notable, which as things currently stand is something I take issue with, given many F3 competitors are kids who it is hard to argue actually pass the WP:GNG.
HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 22:18, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
That would be better. I just couldn't see how you could justify describing Formula 2 as being of international importance. SSSB (talk) 16:10, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
I'm a bit concerned about the vague "any of their predecessors" statement. F2 had a rough history and not all incarnations had an equal international importance. There was a previous FIA F2 championship for instance in the late 2000's and that did not have the same notability.Tvx1 16:31, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
That's true. Perhaps it could be reworded, either by specifying "a top-level feeder series to Formula One or MotoGP, such as the GP2 Series or the Moto2 World Championship" or by just listing off all of the series which would be eligible (in the case of F1 that would be the current F2, GP2, International F3000, and probably the pre-1985 European F2 championship; someone with a better knowledge of motorcycle racing could probably help unpick which of the various Grand Prix classes would be appropriate for the criteria). HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 18:18, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
Would a further useful proviso be to include that a person is notable if they hold an FIA Platinum or Gold License (I don't know their predecessor qualifications), which would catch a lot of the significant sports or GT drivers who don't venture into single-seaters or get called into the works-teams at Le Mans and suchlike. For example, the global success of the current GT3 regs has allowed many drivers to become successful across Asia, Europe & the Americas without getting into the (traditionally) elite Euro-centric levels of the sport. Which goes back to the original point that Motorsport is a very broad church with many disciplines across the world. Interesting, productive discussion! Philby NZ (talk) 21:29, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
That's actually a really good suggestion. I might try to write up a new draft incorporating that. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 21:46, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Revised proposal

Following feedback received from others, I have tweaked my proposal as follows:

  1. Drivers or riders who have qualified for any of the following events:
  2. Drivers or riders who have competed for at least one full season in any of the following series:
  3. Drivers or riders who have finished on the overall podium of any of the following events:
  4. Drivers, riders, or co-drivers who have won any of the following events overall:
  5. Drivers or riders who have won any of the following championship titles:
    • The overall championship title of any series in the previous category without winning a race (a relatively common occurrence in series whose points-scoring systems favour consistent finishes over inconsistent victories).
    • A major championship in which a large number of the competitors are amateur "gentleman" drivers or privateers, such as the European Le Mans Series, Intercontinental GT Challenge, or European Rally Championship.
  6. Any driver who does not meet the previous criteria who has received an FIA platinum driver categorisation can be presumed notable. Drivers who have received an FIA gold driver categorisation are likely to be notable, although a minority of drivers in this group may not meet the general notability guideline.
  7. Have owned or been team principal for a team in a major racing series (Formula One, the World Rally Championship, MotoGP, Formula E, Indycar, DTM, Super GT, the Nascar Cup Series, V8 Supercars, CART, or top-level IMSA) for a full season or more. This includes Cup Series crew chiefs.
  8. Have been enshrined in any notable motorsports hall of fame.
  9. Hold or have held a significant motorsports record, such as a land speed record.

If anyone has further feedback I would be glad to take it onboard before this gets submitted more formally. In particular, if anyone has feedback about how this guideline could better cover motorcycle racing or forms of motorsport outside of circuit racing or rallying, that would be most welcome. Thank you. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 22:19, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I like this proposal. The only change I would suggest is that in points 3 and 4, the list of races there is far too prescriptive (ie really should be something like "for example", or "including"). Races which should really go under one of those would include, to me, any non-championship National Grand Prix (cars and bikes), the Targa Florio, Mille Miglia, several rallies (at the very least the Monte Carlo, Alpine and RAC rallies), the Gordon Bennett Cup, the major intercity races of the 1890s-1900s,... . Perhaps we could create something akin to Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues, which could include both championships and specific races/rallies? A7V2 (talk) 00:13, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
Having a fleshed-out list as a separate Wikiproject guideline with it's own page could be sensible. I think we could tweak the wording to make the proposal less prescriptive regarding individual races outside of championships (I realise now that many editions of the Mille Miglia or Targa Florio weren't World Sportscar Championship rounds), but at the same time I think firmly establishing what level of event we are talking about is also useful. Again, the broadness of our projects scope makes keeping the notability guideline concise a bit of a challenge. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 02:18, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
@A7V2:, how would you feel about this proposal:
4. Drivers, riders, or co-drivers who have won any of the following events overall:
HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 21:57, 21 September 2021 (UTC)HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 00:05, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
It is much better. However I still feel there is something of an over-reliance of races being part of a championship (you have reminded me of this when mentioning the world sportscar championship that I have been meaning for some time to raise some serious concerns with our articles from much of 1960s in this regard, but that is a tale for another day... the short version is it is not necessarily clear cut which races counted towards the world championship, or if a championship by that name existed at all). Another issue to consider with relying on championships is that at least in the case of rallying and sportscars, the world championships were initially both for manufacturers anyway so it seems a bit odd to determine driver notability in such a way. But then the document/page is meant to provide guidance so it needs to be reasonably concise, so I think it will do. I think it is reasonable to assume we won't get a sudden rush of nominations who meet the spirit but not letter of these guidelines. A7V2 (talk) 01:43, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
I doubt we will get a rush of nominations. The point of sections like WP:NMOTOR is to say "people who satisfy these criteria will satify WP:GNG most of the time."

No article should ever be deleted because it fails WP:NMOTOR if WP:GNG is satisfied. At the same time, satisfing WP:NMOTOR is no garuntee that the article will be kept.

If we find that a larger number of articles satisfy WP:NMOTOR but not WP:GNG (or vice versa) it is an indication that WP:NMOTOR needs to be changed to reduce the number of articles that may satisfy one or the other. SSSB (talk) 09:32, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Ivan Lukashevich

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello! I've stumbled upon this one while checking out the GP3 season articles, and I wanted to ask if Lukashevich is even notable per WP:NMOTORSPORT? I did my WP:BEFORE search and expanded the table with the championships he participated in, but I still don't know whether Formula Palmer Audi, Toyota Racing Series, ADAC GT Masters or Russian Circuit Racing Series count towards the notability (as GP3 is a junior non-professional feeder series). Any help would be appreciated. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 00:17, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Reliability of juwra profiles?

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hey, how reliable is juwra profiles as a source? I understand it's used as a source for race statistics, but I was looking at whether their driver profiles such as Colin McRae are considered reliable. There's some grammatical errors on the profile which suggests the writer is ESL and from what I can tell the site is run by one person whose experience with reporting is running fansites. I've used the McRae profile as a source on Colin McRae for now, but can always switch to using his biographies for early life information instead (I originally asked this over at WikiProject World Rally but it's been a month with no response) CiphriusKane (talk) 02:58, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Brabham Featured article review

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I have nominated Brabham for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:49, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Mika Salo paid editing

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
  FYI
 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:Mika Salo#Discussion of "paid contributions" template – some input would be helpful from people familiar with the subject.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:52, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Kyffin Simpson

Latest comment: 3 years ago5 comments5 people in discussion

The Cayman Islands are not a country, they are part of the United Kingdom. This should be reflected in his infobox, but is constantly rejected by someone who cannot grasp this concept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.149.165.144 (talk) 08:04, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

First of all, none of the reference nor the external links say he has nationality due to living in Cayman Islands. Its says he lives there, but regarding the nationality its refered as "american" or Barbadian and American. So Cayman Islands must be removed, and British shouldn't be added, unless references are given.Rpo.castro (talk) 12:11, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
The closest any of the sources come to calling him British is saying he is based in the Caymans (those two aren't even close to being the same thing). This arguement seems to concern the "nationality" field. Based on the evidence, he should be idenfied as American or American-Barbadian in that field - I don't see a source calling him British or Caymian(?) SSSB (talk) 13:38, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
It’s not only about the nationality field in his infobox. He is also currently identified with the Cayman flag in the articles on the championships he competed in.Tvx1 07:44, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
The RefDesk isn't a place for you to whine about something that you should be talking about on the articles Talk Page. Nanonic (talk) 14:03, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Excessive MOS:REPEATLINKing in tables about championship races, etc.?

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Hi,

I'm not sure if this is the best place for bring this up, but this morning I discovered 2013 German Formula Three Championship through the overlink tag. Every instance of a engine/car/team/driver name was wikilinked, which I started to remove. I was going off memory of what things like filmography tables usually do, so I didn't realize until just now that MOS:REPEATLINK lists an exception for tables "if helpful for readers". All the articles for other year's champsionships include the same amount of repeat linking, and it seems lots of other race/championship articles do as well.

I couldn't find any discussion about this, so I wanted to bring this up here. Despite the exception for tables in the guideline, it still feels like it may be a bit much. Some of the instances of repeat linking seem more excessive than others, like the chassis brand being linked every time despite being the only brand used and only in the one column of the table. Any thoughts? Thanks, SpinningCeres (talk) 00:16, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi @SpinningCeres:. I think you'll find that pretty much every occurrence of a driver/constructor/car name is linked in pretty much every motor racing table. It's a convention which has developed over time. I think the main rationale is that if readers find a driver/constructor/car about which they want to know more information near the end of a long table, it can be tedious to have to scroll back up the table to find the first occurrence, when for very little cost, we can just link every instance and they can just click the occurrence they found. DH85868993 (talk) 09:53, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
Alright, thanks for the feedback. I've restored the wikilinks on that article. SpinningCeres (talk) 16:34, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

RFC that could affect this project

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is a titling RFC at Wikipedia talk:Article titles that will affect many articles at this project. There was discussion of making the RfC handled bit by bit before all projects understood the ramifications with entertainment being singled out next in a deleted draft, and other projects after that. Whether you agree or don't agree please join in the discussion for this massive Wikipedia change. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:42, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Infobox on 2021 F2 (and F3 potentially) races

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I've fixed the template Template:Infobox FIA Formula 2 race report so as to have an optional third race to allow for the 2021 races (I can probably do the same for Template:Infobox FIA Formula 3 race report though really we should be merging this almost identical templates) but now I wonder how we want the information displayed. For the first few races of the year, they were entered in assuming that three races would be added to the template in chronological order, eg 2021 Sakhir Formula 2 round, but from the 2021 Silverstone Formula 2 round onwards only the feature and sprint 1 are included, in that order. Of course now we can add the sprint 2 race, but should the top race shown be the feature (and most important) race go on top with the sprints below (eg 2021 Yas Island Formula 2 round), or should they be in chronological order? Pinging @AS19Portsmouth: as creator of most of these articles and @Dh16dh, Corvus tristis, and MSport1005: who had a previous discussion about the template. A7V2 (talk) 23:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Nice work, appreciate it. Chronological order is the way to go in my opinion. MSport1005 (talk) 11:55, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
OK I've also fixed the F3 template. If I get the time I will also add the third races and rearrange the existing F2 races (this can be done by by making sure the "_r1" elements are for the first one displayed, "_r2" are second and "_r3" are third). Also for race 3 to be displayed it must have a number of laps entered as this is the trigger so as not to have it in rounds with two races. A7V2 (talk) 22:15, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Teams or cars in motor racing venue infobox lap records

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello. I have started a section at Template talk:Infobox motorsport venue#Should record_team be replaced by record_car? regarding the relevance (or lack thereof) of team names or car names in the lap record section of motor racing venue articles. I invite interested editors to participate there. A7V2 (talk) 04:51, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Text formatting when describing a table

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is an ongoing discussion (revolving mainly around motorsport articles) at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Text_formatting#Use_of_bold_and_italics_in_the_legend_for_a_table, and I invite interested editors to participate there. A7V2 (talk) 04:57, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Pratt & Miller#Requested move 31 December 2021

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
 

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Pratt & Miller#Requested move 31 December 2021 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. -"Ghost of Dan Gurney" 17:53, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Pending proposal to declare NSPORTS (and NMOTORSPORTS) an invalid argument at AfD

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

A new proposal is now pending to add language to NSPORT providing, among other things, that "meeting [NSPORTS or NMOTORSPORTS] would not serve as a valid keep argument in a deletion discussion." If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, please feel free to add your comments at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Subproposal 1 (NSPORT). Cbl62 (talk) 18:05, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Titans-RX#Requested move 25 January 2022

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
 

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Titans-RX#Requested move 25 January 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. دَستخَط، اِفلاق (کَتھ باتھ) 05:33, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Need Moderator Help in Edit War

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

An editor on the Baja 1000 article has chosen to remove the sentence, "It is one of the most prestigious off-road races in the world, attracting competitors from all over the world." I returned the sentence, this time providing 4 inline citations mentioning the event's prestige but, the editor still reverted it. Editor's talk page shows that he is already involved in other edit wars. Any help in this matter is appreciated.Orsoni (talk) 18:49, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Changes required to your articles

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

To maintain a professional and accurate encyclopædia on motorsport, I propose that you make the following changes to articles that fall under these umbrellas:

  • Remove sponsor and commercial names from article titles where possible – for example, the 2017 Wilson Security Sandown 500 should be re-named 2017 Sandown 500 with the commercial name included in the format "The 2017 Sandown 500 (formally known as the 2017 Wilson Security Sandown 500) was a...".
  • When there is no official name for an event, put the series first and the circuit second – for example, 2019 W Series Hockenheim round is correct however 2022 Sakhir Formula 2 round needs to be swapped.
  • ALL drivers who have only competed in F3 Regional, GB3, Formula 4 and GB4 (excluding W Series) have their articles immediately deleted under WP:NOTABILITY. W Series drivers stay as they are notable under Wikipedia:WikiProject Women's sport.
  • ALL individual result tables for the above championships as well as ANY karting-related tables that appear in a driver article immediately removed under WP:NOTABILITY.
  • All are to be drivers listed in series tables and race results under their nationality of passport and/or citizenship instead of the nationality of their licence as the FIA's official position is "All Drivers, irrespective of the nationality of their Licence, participating in any FIA Championship Competition, shall retain the nationality of their passport in all official documents, publications and prize-giving ceremonies.".[1]

Thank you for your attention.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:3b3a:7e00:38d4:1084:dedf:b28b (talk) 01:26, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I'll deal with the points in the order you gave them:
  • Your going to have to create move requests. It'll also help if you explain your rational properly, and not just declare it as "[un]professional [and/or] [in]accurate", becuase I don't understand how this is an improvement, if WP:COMMONNAME is followed.
  • Your going to have to create move requests. It'll also help if you explain your rational properly, and not just declare it as "[un]professional [and/or] [in]accurate", because I don't understand why this would improve anything.
  • A blanket rule like that completely undermines WP:NOTABILITY, the notability of article's should be decided on a case-by-case basis. I daresay there are Formula 4 drivers who are notable. You need a seperate WP:AfD for each driver.
  • WP:NOTABILITY is only used to determine if a subject warrants an article, not what goes in it.
  • We reflect the flags used in the documents (as far as I am aware), so nothing needs to change here.
In short, blanket rules, like you laid out above, are completely inappropriate. SSSB (talk) 10:10, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
I've been slowing trying to move NASCAR article titles away from including sponsor names for a little bit now. That being said, I agree with SSSB and add that these "proposals" (which sound more like demands) coming from a 1-contribution IP, are hilarious. -"Ghost of Dan Gurney" 11:43, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "FIA International Sporting Code" (PDF). Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile. Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile. 18 January 2021. p. 34. Retrieved 23 April 2022.

User script to detect unreliable sources

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

  • John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Nationality

Latest comment: 2 years ago8 comments4 people in discussion

I assume that some editors are exaggerate nationality aspect in the articles. I had big doubts that Jack Aitken mentioned in majority of sources as Korean racing driver. Not sure if it complies with MOS:ETHNICITY Corvus tristis (talk) 12:36, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

In all news and official information I ever read (and I did a check minutes ago although not very deep) and he is only mentioned as British. I didn't even knew he had Korean background. BUT his personal social media always states british/korean (or scottis/korean) so he highlights his korean background.Rpo.castro (talk) 13:24, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
For the Infobox though, per MOS:FLAGS, we only list sporting nationalities. And I can’t find any evidence that Aitken actually ever competed under the Korean flag.Tvx1 16:00, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
He only competed under british license.Rpo.castro (talk) 16:30, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure we should equate sporting nationality to racing licence. Most drivers that use a licence from a country different to their passport(s) do it because they have no other choice (i.e. they live far away from their country, it's much cheaper, or they get no support from their ASN). In some cases, like Angolan drivers, they all race under different licences because Angola doesn't have an ASN. Does that mean we should remove Angola from their nationalities in the infobox? Obviously not. As far as Aitken is concerned, he's proud of both his nationalities, wears both on his suit, carries both on his car, but uses a British licence because he can only use one (and lives in the UK for that matter). I won't revert any further for now, I want to know your thoughts. MSport1005 (talk) 17:22, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
License nationality is what dictates the flag they compete under in these competitions and thus will appear in official documents. That is quite patently the sporting nationality. For FIA world championships there is the added requirement that they possess the legal nationality of the sovereign state they which to represent.Tvx1 17:51, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
One thing is the use of flag in sport articles that must be the sport license. If an Angolan driver like Luís Sá Silva wins some championship, its a championship for Macao not Angola. Other thing is the nationality in any person biography. In this case, is there any reliables sources that clearly states that he has also Korean nationality or just the common british-korean because he has Korean heritage?Rpo.castro (talk) 17:46, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
There are a couple of sources in his article which confirm he actually has dual citizenship. In the lead there is a source which specify him being South Korean.Tvx1 17:51, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Pro Winners vs. Overall Winners | 2022 GT World Challenge Europe Sprint Cup

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I've been working over at 2022 GT World Challenge Europe Sprint Cup and have had an edit reverted twice regarding the "Overall" vs. "Pro" class winners in the "Race Results" table. In all previous seasons, we've listed the highest finishing Pro-class car as the "Pro" winner, even if it didn't win the overall race, but since the series scores the top ten finishers regardless of class (with the Pro class not having its own points classification), there's significant confusion as to whether the highest finishing Pro car should be listed as a winner in its class. The 2021 page shows what we've done in the past, where you'd bold the overall race winner as its own class winner while leaving the highest finishing Pro-class car in its own column.

I apologize if I haven't made myself all that clear here, but I'd like some clarification as to whether the precedent should remain or if we should consider changing something here. SmackJam (talk) 16:41, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Well, I'm used to and I like more the 2021 version but the truth is that we don't have a Pro Winner, and being first of Pro won't mean much if you end always behind Pro/Am teams. So yes, they are right imo.Rpo.castro (talk) 21:10, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Monster Jam World Finals

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I'm not really super well-versed in other motorsports apart from Monster Jam... basically, is there any cleanup that can possibly be done for this article? Seems like it's getting a bit lengthy now, likely due to the amount of tables/brackets in the article. I'm not sure how 'noteworthy' it is as a whole, or as separate events. If article splitting for each WF event would work, I definitely think that could help out, and then with Monster Jam World Finals serving as the main/general article for the event as a whole. Any comments/help with this? Would definitely be great to get the article/information cleaned up and well-organized. Thanks in advance. Magitroopa (talk) 16:20, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Infobox for endurance and other races

Latest comment: 2 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

While editing 2022 Bathurst 12 Hour I noticed that Template:Infobox V8 Supercar race report has made its way onto various endurance race articles (such as 2021 24 Hours of Spa) and other series (2021 W Series Austin round for example). A problem arises when looking at the "Round X of Y in the year series" part of the infobox. Back in 2015 when I reformatted the Infobox, I never intended for it to be used on anything other than Supercars Championship race reports. As a result, the series parameter acts as a switch function for the various names under which the Supercars Championship has existed throughout its history, and does not allow for any other names to be entered, while the year parameter is used for both the Round X of Y line and for the actual date cell. For the other races on which this infobox has been used, the series name has been either been included in the year parameter, which means it also appears in the date cell as on 2021 24 Hours of Spa, or has been entered as the series parameter, which means it does not appear at all as on 2021 W Series Austin round.

There are a couple of options to fix this:

  • I edit Template:Infobox V8 Supercar race report to change the series parameter from a switch function to just be text input. This would require updating every individual event report article for the Supercars Championship by replacing the code for the switch function with the full series name for each season.
  • The template does have a non_champ parameter which removes the "Round X of Y..." line altogether. This parameter could be turned on for the non-Supercars articles, however it would be ideal to keep the "Round X of Y..." where the race forms part of a series.
  • Use a different template for the non-Supercars articles. I do not have time to search through templates but surely there is a more generic motorsport race one to use?

– Kytabu 11:27, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

A different template should used. V8 supercars is not endurance racing.Tvx1 11:48, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
I agree. I think either a generic (if it fits) or a new template (probably a copy from V8supercars with minor changes).Rpo.castro (talk) 16:34, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I did get to have a look at Category:Motor race report infobox templates this morning and there are no generic race report infoboxes. I guess this makes sense given the massive variations in formats across the world's championships. The following is the list of articles which are incorrectly using the V8 Supercar template:

The Finali Mondiali articles can continue using the V8 template with non_champ active as they were one-off events. The DTM does actually have its own infobox so I cannot understand why those articles are not using it. For the remaining endurance race and W Series articles, I think it would be worth creating a generic infobox for endurance races (sidenote: I was surprised to see that Le Mans race reports do not feature an infobox) while the W Series could have its own infobox as F2 and F3 do. – Kytabu 23:18, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Surtees TS5/TS-5

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I've started a discussion regarding the correct naming for the Formula 5000 Surtees TS5/TS-5. Interested editors are invited to contribute to the discussion. DH85868993 (talk) 11:49, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Ginetta GT4 Supercup

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Should xyz-year Ginetta GT4 Supercup be categorized together? I did that but have been subsequently reverted at Category:Ginetta GT4 Supercup. It seems to be that such articles should be categorized together, since they are just the supercup seasons for that year. After reversion, they only categorize into Category: xyz-year in British motorsport, which seems to be under categorized -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 03:04, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

It seems reasonable to me for the xyz-year Ginetta GT4 Supercup articles to be categorised together in Category:Ginetta GT4 Supercup. DH85868993 (talk) 05:49, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Jarno Zaffelli

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello, WikiProject,

It would be great if someone knowledgable about racing could look this new article over. Thanks, in advance, for any help you can provide. Liz Read! Talk! 02:10, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Categories

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Some categories involving motorsport drivers, teams and races were emptied "out of process" and have been tagged for speedy deletion, CSD C1. If you believe they are still useful and do not want them deleted in a week, you might ensure they are not empty in 7 days. You can find them in Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 02:22, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Pinging Formula Downforce, who's recently been doing work with motor racing categories. DH85868993 (talk) 03:19, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
The categories Category:Svenska Mästerskapet drivers, Category:Bhaitech Engineering drivers, Category:BVM drivers, Category:Forsythe Championship Racing drivers, Category:Fortec Motorsports drivers, Category:Koiranen Motorsport drivers and Category:Mark Burdett Racing drivers are just dupclicates of [[:Category:Swedish Formula Three Championship drivers]], [[:Category:Bhaitech drivers]], [[:Category:BVM Racing drivers]], [[:Category:Forsythe Racing drivers]], [[:Category:Fortec Motorsport drivers]], [[:Category:Koiranen GP drivers]] and [[:Category:Mark Burdett Motorsport drivers]]. The category Category:Nissan Motorsports drivers is a duplicate Category to either [[:Category:Kelly Racing drivers]] or [[:Category:Nismo drivers]]. The category Category:European Formula Racing drivers included just Mark Webber (racing driver) but there is no evidence that he drove for a team named like that. The category Category:European GT Championship drivers included just John Fitzpatrick (racing driver) and the Championship doesn't even have a Wikipedia article and isn't found anywhere else. Formula Downforce (talk) 12:42, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

2022 World Touring Car Cup Standing

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Number of points in team standing in the article for whatever reason is different from standing on official website. Also Girolami's number of points is wrong. Might be some other errors, someone needs to check. 194.104.22.5 (talk) 15:54, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I've brought this up at Talk:2022_World_Touring_Car_Cup. SSSB (talk) 16:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Question

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hi, I'm working on Mercedes-Benz CLK GTR, and I've come here in the hope that someone might be knowledgeable in this area. From what I can gather, two CLK GTRs left the factory with the 7.3 litre SuperSport package, and three others were later retrofitted with the package. Sources say two, some say five. This RM Sotheby's auction description says it was the sole coupe fitted with the SuperSport package, and I know for certain a roadster (the Sultan of Brunei's if I recall correctly), and this Mercedes-World article details how another car got the SuperSport engine without the package. The RM Sotheby's car and the Mercedes-World car are two different chassis (the latter is painted dark metallic blue), so I think my assumption is correct, two left the factory with SuperSport specification, and three others were later retrofitted for a total of five, as mentioned in this auto evolution article. I've also contacted DK Engineering about this, so hopefully they can confirm it.

TLDR; two Super Sport CLK GTR chassis or five Super Sport CLK GTR chassis with three retrofits? X-750 List of articles that I have screwed over 06:27, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Nationality... Again

Latest comment: 2 years ago56 comments4 people in discussion

User:MSport1005 continues to add unsourced speculation about drivers' nationalities. From my point of view. We should adhere to MOS:FLAGS and MOS:ETHNICITY. We already discussed matter and reached conclusion that Aitken is not referred as South Korean racing driver in majority of sources and that we should not refer him as South Korean driver in infobox. But he still put this using kinda new reasons which still do not comply with wiki guidelines. P.S. I have nothing against to show the background in article but it should not confuse understanding which country he actually represented according to third-party sources. Maybe using of the notes will be better for this purpose. i.e. Sacha Fenestraz Nationality: French<note>Uses Argentine flag on his car and helmet<source>. Corvus tristis (talk) 18:51, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh, thank you for opening this, I was actually starting a new topic on your talk page right now... So, there's different cases, for a start. I don't see in the same way drivers like Lance Stroll, Lirim Zendeli, Victor Martins or Pascal Wehrlein who completely ignore their 2nd nationalities and focus on their main country of origin, and people like Jack Aitken, Sacha Fenestraz, Ayrton Simmons or David Malukas, who wear both flags on their helmets, race suits, cars, etc., and have stated their will to represent both of their countries in racing. It just doesn't sit well with me to give so much importance to a racing licence, which isn't 100% in the driver's control. I don't agree with removing one nationality for these drivers just because they can only race under one licence, while we can perfectly have Romain Grosjean, Edoardo Mortara, Simona de Silvestro or Raffaele Marciello with their two flags purely because they've changed licence over time—which I do support. In any case, I really encourage you to stop reverting while consensus isn't yet reached—we should listen to other user's views first. For me, we should keep both flags only for drivers who provenly use both flags in their official forms, i.e. on their car and suit (not in stylised artwork like helmets). I could agree with using notes if you deem that more appropriate. MSport1005 (talk) 19:12, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia is based on WP:Reliable sources and nor on our direct evidence nor on our interpretation. This is your mistake in the first place. Driver him/herself may belive that he even a Martian and may put on his car or suit a flag of Mars. Our goal is to reflect in which way he was reflected in a complex of reliable sources and put this info to infobox. If majority says that driver is British, then it should be British. If it is important to reflect position of minority - use note. Corvus tristis (talk) 19:31, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
Please be serious and discuss sensibly, we're not 12-year-olds. Driver him/herself may belive that he even a Martian This is not about beliefs. This is about a) the driver actually officially possessing both nationalities and b) the driver willing to represent both of those countries in racing. Using the flag on car and suit is the 2nd best proof for the latter—the best one obviously being stating it explicitly in interviews. So it's double source if anything, not the silliness of putting any dumb occurrence you come up with on your car—which you're not allowed to, by the way. MSport1005 (talk) 19:42, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
Suits and car liveries are stylised (usually by the team, though the driver could have a say). Using flags from race suits and car liveries is WP:OR at best. There is absolutely nothing to stop Ferrari put the Italian flag on Leclerc's race suit - it doesn't make him Italian. The infoboxe should be limited to the nationality they race as - the only exception being if they aren't that nationality (is that even possible?) The prose can deal with the ins and outs of the situation. SSSB (talk) 19:53, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
There is absolutely nothing to stop Ferrari put the Italian flag on Leclerc's race suit Not really... It's down to the driver what flags appear next to his/her name on the suit, the side of the cockpit, and the halo. Also, that's not stylised: it's simply <flag1> <flag2> <driver name> and possibly <#number>. In text format. is that even possible? It is, yes. Novalak and Piastri have raced under British licences in the past, Palou under a Japanese one, Bedrin and Blokhina are racing under an Italian one, Doornbos and Kobayashi raced under a Monégasque one in F1 and FE respectively, etc. It happens usually in European karting in fact. And Angolans always have to get other licences because their ASN doesn't issue them. The prose can deal with the ins and outs of the situation Now, that's an answer I was looking for. If a few more users agree with your view, then we'll be in the position to call it consensus. MSport1005 (talk) 20:10, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
No, that’s not only up to the driver. Teams can decide whether or not to incorporate those too. Most importantly, they have no official meaning whatsoever. Bertrand Gachot once had the flag of Europe on his car and helmet. You’re not seriously going to suggest his nationality was European, are you? Lastly, nationality of an ASN issuing a licence≠racing nationality of the driver it’s issued to.Tvx1 02:22, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Who are you and why are you trying to teach me about motorsport? That last sentence proves you have no idea how this industry works... You need to take a good look at articles 1.4 and 1.5 of Appendix L to the International Sporting Code before spreading all this misinformation. MSport1005 (talk) 09:10, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Those articles don't state that the driver must be of the same nationality as the ASN. SSSB (talk) 09:36, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Well, that was exactly my point. What are you trying to defend? MSport1005 (talk) 11:44, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Tvx1 said that ASN nationality is not the same as racing nationality, and you point him to those articles, articles which don't talk about that issue at all. SSSB (talk) 12:12, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Maybe I misinterpreted what Tvx1 meant? I thought his point was that the country you race for isn't necessarily the country of the ASN that issues your licence. Something which is blatantly wrong. MSport1005 (talk) 12:55, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
That is his point - and there is nothing in the articles you mentioned to suggest he is "blatantly wrong". SSSB (talk) 13:24, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Are you trying to waste my time? MSport1005 (talk) 14:19, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
You're wasting everyone's time by refusing to provide a link to the relevant regulations and playing these stupid games telling people to look things up. If you make a claim, the onus is on you to provide the evidence, not send up on a wild goose chase (WP:PROVIT). Either you've pointed me to the wrong articles, or we are interpreting them differently - please quote the text you believe supports the claim that Tvx1 is "blatantly wrong". SSSB (talk) 15:29, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Alright, let's set this straight because I think you're getting a lot of things mixed up. You can have all the nationalities you want but what determines the country you represent in FIA-sanctioned series is the ASN that issued your licence. If there's no licence, there's no race for you. Surely this was something obvious and a clear basis of this discussion? You literally pointed at that earlier when you said The infoboxe should be limited to the nationality they race as - the only exception being if they aren't that nationality. Appendix L to the ISC, specifically the articles I mentioned, covers all this. Simply look at the F3 entry list from last weekend, the country next to the driver is the country of the licence. Look at Goethe for example: he's representing Monaco despite not having the Monégasque nationality. Even the Wikipedia article on F3 explains it well: "Goethe is a Danish-German driver competing under a Monegasque licence." Even clearer for FRECA and [//Elenco_verificati_spa_19062022_verified.pdf Italian F4] where you're given the nationality of the driver (i.e. the passport they're using) and the country of the ASN that issued the licence they're using. And it's the latter that they represent—hence why, for example, the Italian anthem is being played when Nikita Bedrin wins this year. You can search for F2 2017 when Palou raced: he had the Japanese flag. Why? Because he was racing in Japanese F3 that year and Japanese F3 forces their drivers to use Japanese licences ([1]). Go back to F1 in 2005 and you'll see Doornbos with the Monégasque flag. Why? Again, same case as Goethe, he's not Monégasque but he's based in Monaco and therefore got his licence there because it was easier for him ([2]). It's as simple as: the country you represent is the country of the ASN that issued your licence. I really don't understand why we're going on a tangent about something that is common knowledge (or so I thought...). MSport1005 (talk) 16:18, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
The articles you mentioned don't cover this at all. And it is obsurd to think that volunteers (which we all are), most of whom are little more than casual fans, would know the ins and outs of a regulation which has no direct impact on the competition. I, for one, don't moniter F3, or take any real notice of who drives for what nation, or what national anthem is being played. Can we please also turn down the aggresion.

Getting on to the subject at hand, your paragrapgh is WP:OR. Looking at your paragrapgh, it seems perfectly reasonable to say that drivers race as the nationality of their license by default, but may choose to override this to their actual nationality, if they so wish. SSSB (talk) 18:20, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

No I'm not telling things that are blatantly wrong. Cut your arrogant attitude here please. You're not going to achieve anything by treating other editors like that. The nationality of an ASN that issues a driver's licence is not necessarily the same as the nationality that driver competes under. Sure there have been plenty of cases where that was the cases, but that doesn't mean it is a default. You want an example of the opposite? Sure, with pleasure. Andre Lotterer's licence was issued by the ASN of Belgium (his motherland), but he nevertheless he competes under Germany nationality (his fatherland). Racing licences have a nationality field, just like passports, and that determines what nationality a driver competes under. Often they simply leave that the same as the ASN, but it isn't always so. Thus we cannot purely go by ASN nationality. And I reiterate that flags on cars and overalls have no official meaning. Tvx1 18:24, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
It's not as much arrogance as it is exasperation, to be completely honest. I do apologise to User:SSSB and you if I was too aggresive though, I might have got too carried away. As for the Lotterer situation, I'm aware of it and from what I've been told it was all either a misunderstanding from those Belgian newspapers, or just reproduction of outdated information. As I said, my statement that the country you represent is the country of the ASN that issued your licence applies exclusively for FIA-sanctioned championships. He is racing under a German licence in FE, that is for sure. What you say might have been true for Super Formula, which he was doing at the time of the articles. MSport1005 (talk) 18:38, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
He also drove in F1 as a German while holding a licence from the Belgian ASN. Moreover, there are different regulations for different FIA championships. For FIA world championships the International Sporting Code dictates that drivers must compete under a passport nationality they possess. Therefore, Robert Doornbos, who you mentioned earlier and who drove in F1 in 2005 with Monegasque nationality, must have had that nationality too in addition to having a licence from its ASNTvx1 18:42, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
That might owe to a particularity for FIA World Championships covered by Article 9.4.2 of the ISC ([3]). A particularity which, if I may add, is rarely enforced, as Doornbos in 2005 proves. For all other championships, Article 9.4.1 (i.e. the country you represent is the country of the ASN that issued your licence) applies. I do have reasons to believe Lotterer raced under a German licence in F1 though. MSport1005 (talk) 19:18, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
We don't goby ones personal "reasons to believe", we go by evidence. Tvx1 19:29, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Who cares anyway? What licence Lotterer used in F1 eight years ago is irrelevant to this discussion, and my "reasons to believe" aren't things I can share publicly, so what is the point? MSport1005 (talk) 19:35, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
No it isn't. It is an example of a driver competing under the nationality of the ASN issuing his licence. Comments that you have "reasons to believe" something regarding a racing licence that you cannot however share publicly are really difficult to take serious. It seems more probable that you personal motives for refusing to believe that factual scenario that has been presented to you is not possible. Even you call into question the situation in F1, he also drove in another FIA world championship, WEC, in the years before and after. And also in non-world championships he competed with a licence from the Belgian ASN, yet there is no evidence he ever competed in any championship under Belgian nationality. Thus drivers competing with a different nationality to the nationality of the ASN issuing his/her licence CAN patently happen. Also the ISC you linked to is the 2022 version, what we're discussing happened 8 to 15+ years ago. Regulations can change over time. Tvx1 14:38, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Completely off the point. But also in non-world championships he competed with a licence from the Belgian ASN, yet there is no evidence he ever competed in any championship under Belgian nationality. That's because he didn't. In fact his Formula E stint pre-WC (pre-2020/21), which falls under Article 9.4.1 of the ISC, confirms he's using a German licence, not a Belgian one. MSport1005 (talk) 18:38, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
It's down to the driver what flags appear... er, last I check the team designed the livery. And even if it was down to the driver - it is still WP:OR to follow that. From what you've said, there is nothing to stop Vettel using the Ukrainian flag (which he has already done on his helmet), and there is nothing to stop Verstappen putting the flag of Verstapland. Unless you can point to the regulation that dictates drivers may only display flags to which they are officially connected, the use of flags is a stylistic choice (who makes that choice is irrelevant) and it is WP:OR to claim that it is their nationality. SSSB (talk) 08:11, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Agree. I said before, Gachot put a European flag on his car at some point. And some British drivers have put the flags of their home nations on the cars. These have no official meaning whatsoever.Tvx1 18:41, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
For what it's worth, what you debate is outside the scope of what I suggested in one of my replies above: a) the driver actually officially possessing both nationalities and b) the driver willing to represent both of those countries in racing. MSport1005 (talk) 19:21, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Willingness to represent is not the same thing as having represented multiple nationalities. We don't list multiple nationalities in infoboxes unless they actually have represented multiple nationalities. There is no guarantee a willingness is actually put in practice.Tvx1 19:31, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
See, you're conferring sporting nationality a meaning that it doesn't strictly have. The whole reason this section was opened is that this is not set in stone, it's not something for you to be condescending about, it is up for debate. And don't make me bring the example of the Angolans into play again... MSport1005 (talk) 19:40, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Willingness? A driver might be willing to race as Donetsk, that doesn't make it his nationality. Willingness is WP:OR in most cases anyway. Infoboxes should limit themselves to actual nationality and sporting nationality, not hypothetical nationality. SSSB (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Why do you keep making the same comment over and over again? This is like an endless spiral. I'll repeat it for a third time—if you want I can put it in bold, in italics, underline it, circle it and put little stars around it for you to read it. What I'm suggesting is a) the driver actually officially possessing both nationalities and b) the driver willing to represent both of those countries in racing. None of the examples you've given of Ukraine, Europe, Donetsk, 'Verstapland' and Mars fulfills that. MSport1005 (talk) 09:48, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Really? Ukraine is not a sovereign state then? As we have explained to you already neither a nor b are justification to include nationalities in the inbox of racing drivers. Our practice is to only include nationalities that a driver has actually competed under. Including nationalities based on willingness is ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as listing a driver as having won a world championship because they declared a willingness to win one. Tvx1 14:47, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
If you can forward to me any source that confirms Vettel has a Ukrainian nationality... MSport1005 (talk) 18:34, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I kept repeating the same thing again and again because you keep making a ridiculous, WP:OR claim: "willingness". Willingness is not a metric used to determine nationality, apart from, apparently, by you. SSSB (talk) 09:06, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

But who said it's a metric to determine nationality? People say something and you interpret the opposite. This feels like arguing with a concrete wall, seriously. MSport1005 (talk) 09:31, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
You, when you mentioned the "willingness" of the driver. If you are now acknowledging that "willingness" is not a metric used to determine nationality, then "willingness" isn't relevant. So why do you keep bringing it up? We either use their legal nationality, or sporting nationality, or both. Not this WP:OR, subjective mix and match of what the driver is "hypothetically" willing to do. As for "confirms Vettel has a Ukrainian nationality" - you're the one who keeps telling us that this isn't relevant. You are the one who keeps insisting that drivers compete for the nation who is their ASN. So if Vettel gets a Ukrainian license, he races as Ukrainian. SSSB (talk) 09:59, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
You're taking everything out of context and not reading what other people say. It's pointless to continue this conversation. MSport1005 (talk) 10:18, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm beginning to think you're trolling us here. Our replies were merely refutes of your arguments. The Ukraine things was just to show that flags on cars don't mean anything. Any driver, not just Vettel, could have a Ukrainian flag painted on their car and still would have no official meaning. You're the one ripping it of context here. And it seems that you have now yourself admitted that it's a meaningless argument. Tvx1 12:10, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
No, it's just that you're twisting my arguments to disprove me instead of purely stating your opinions, and I'm tired of it. My point all along was that what country a driver represents isn't strictly up to the driver, so equating sporting nationality to licence (which, per Article 9.4.1 of the ISC, is what determines who the driver represents in most series) isn't fair or accurate. Sacha Fenestraz, who has on several occasions stated he wishes to represent Argentina and not France, is a prime example of this. Jack Aitken, who always carries the Korean flag wherever he goes and remembers his Korean background, is another. So is David Malukas, who literally blends the Lithuanian and American flags in order to represent both. My view is that taking the flags a driver opts to wear on his car and suit (provided they have the passport of said countries) is a good common ground, and avoids removing countries that drivers feel attached to but can't, or have difficulties representing—but does leave out others like Mauritius for Wehrlein, Portugal for Martins, or Albania for Zendeli. I know it's something unofficial and changeable, which makes it a shaky metric, but I'd personally prefer it over strictly sticking to licence. I'd also prefer if each of you just manifested your views instead of picking apart some of my words out of context, giving unrelated examples to discredit them, and just wandering about in circles with the conversation. That's all I have to say. MSport1005 (talk) 14:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Could you please clarify how "I know it's something unofficial and changeable, which makes it a shaky metric, but I'd personally prefer it over strictly sticking to licence." connects with WP:Reliable sources and WP:OR? Driver itself is not a third-party source. You provide some questionable source in edit description about driver raced under different license/nationality during one season and on this basis you making conclusion that driver competes whole racing career "via dual nationality". Corvus tristis (talk) 10:14, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
1) If you're talking about Simona de Silvestro, that source is the same source that supports the entire driver standings in the season's article. Now please explain why Nuvolari3000 are, in your view, questionable. 2) No one other than you has said the words "whole racing career" here. Wikipedia doesn't require the driver to have raced for a country for their "whole racing career" to put it in the infobox. 3) "Via dual nationality" is an established practice for whenever two nationalities appear in a driver's infobox, it's not something I've randomly come up with. And for what it's worth, I agree with Tvx1 on removing it. MSport1005 (talk) 13:07, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
It is funny that you completely ignore first question, because your point of view is direct violation of the guidelines. 1) How we should know that this is not an error of site editor? This is the only source claiming that she raced as Italian. 2) But for readers it may give wrong impression. If De Silvestro raced whole career as Swiss driver, then it should be the only nationality in her infobox. We do not need to guess that she probably raced as Italian for just one year according to one site which we cannot verify. But I have nothing against to higlight this small fact via notes, especcialy if you have additional source confirming such claim. Moreover I do believe it can be a good practice to use sourced notes for explaining that driver used different nationality/racing license during certain years. Two flags should be remained for drivers like Grosjean and Gachot, who actually used to race under both flags, which is confirmed by different third-party sources. 3) Okay. Corvus tristis (talk) 13:48, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Well I just found the first question somewhat incoherent. Driver is not a third-party source? Who a driver with multiples nationalities represents is supposed to be the driver's decision. When it isn't, then I'd give value to what country or countries they would choose to represent if they could—no better source for that than the driver itself. There's no real WP:OR in here. Also, here you go several more sources about De Silvestro racing as an Italian, and not just for one year: [4], [5], [6]. MSport1005 (talk) 14:52, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes, driver is not a third-party source, please acknowledge yourself with Wikipedia:Independent sources. Driver is a direct example of non-indenpendent source. In case with Di Silvestro you have proved your point, because you provided plenty of independent sources, but they should be featured in articles. Otherwise, according to WP:BURDEN it may be removed without further ado. Corvus tristis (talk) 10:24, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure you're better familiarised with WP:IS than I am... Independent sources are preferred so as to avoid bias, unreliability, inaccuracy and/or self-promotion. That does not mean all examples of non-independent sources are disallowed. They are valid provided that the connection of the source to the topic can be "clearly identified", which is the case. As for the Simona de Silvestro sources (and also David Malukas and Romain Grosjean), do you want me to stamp it right in the infobox? Should I create a footnote saying "<driver> competed under <whatever> licence earlier in their career"? MSport1005 (talk) 11:11, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Where I have said that it should be disallowed? I said that driver is not a third-party/independent source. Perception from independent sources is more important then personal view when it comes to nationality. When I said about martians it was not a joke, it was a reference to Russian Census (2010) when some people called themselves as martians, elves, goblins, etc. I'm certain that readers here for facts reflected in the indepedent sources. Because Wikipedia is encyclopedia in the first place, not a mindless re-print from drivers' websites. As, SSSB said below, it should be in-line citation. I believe it would be fine either in infobox, either after the sentence where we mention drivers' nationality. And, yes I think it is also good idea to add footnotes for different racing license which we usuall did not mention at all in the drivers' article. Corvus tristis (talk) 04:42, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
It is WP:OR because we would be the only source paying any attention to the nation a driver wants to represent. And the reason other sources don't pick up on it is because who the driver wants to represnt is irrelevant. Wikipedia reports facts, not wants. SSSB (talk) 11:28, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
  • @SSSB:, thank you for link for WP:OR. This is funny but original research is literally what MSport1005 asks me in the edit descriptions, when he doing his reverts. Corvus tristis (talk) 04:15, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
    Now, this is frankly shocking. If we're going to read edit summaries: yesterday you were saying "you're breaking <this> and violating <that>", "gosh, you even read your source?" and then proceeded to complain about my "tone, please" when I told you 5 times to do your research. You even told me it's my obligation to do the research in your place! You were removing established material from Wikipedia on the basis of claims like "no source that he raced as <whatever>" which you didn't even bother verifying. You were wrong in multiple cases: De Silvestro, DeFrancesco, Grosjean, even Lund who's literally racing as a Nicaraguan currently, even Weug a few months ago where you didn't even check the sources that were already in the article! And you still keep pretending you're always in the right. This is not a good attitude to have in Wikipedia. We're here to discuss in a civilised way, not to tell the others things like "this is your mistake in the first place". MSport1005 (talk) 09:36, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
    This is not in keeping with WP:BURDEN. Once is a mistake, doing it multiple times comes across as arrogance or failing to get to the point that it is your burden. A driver racing under multiple nationalities is always a claim that should be cited. It is your job to provide attibutation for your edits - you can not expect others to go on a wild goose chase looking for it. SSSB (talk) 15:35, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
    They're not my edits. MSport1005 (talk) 16:19, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Reverts are your edits. Addition of the "suit and car flag" to infobox of Aitken, also your edit. Just facts. Corvus tristis (talk) 17:54, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Whether or not you are the first person to add the content is irrlevant. By restoring the content the onus was on you to prove something that was reasonable challenged. SSSB (talk) 18:03, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
I see your point now and understand my mistake. Either way I did provide the necessary sources as per WP:BURDEN when asked to. I do still think part of the burden is on Corvus tristis, particularly at Frederik Lund and Maya Weug, where he didn't check the existing sources properly. MSport1005 (talk) 18:29, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
The easy thing to do is add an in-line citation to the infobox... SSSB (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Audi R10 TDI

Latest comment: 2 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

I'm giving the article a rework, and I'm confused. It seems that from 2006 both Joest Racing and Champion Racing used the title Audi Sport North America? Or was it just Champion Racing from 2006-2008? Because I saw on the 2006 24 Hours of Le Mans page that it was team Joest, so I'm a little confused. If anyone can clarify, that'd be brilliant. Thanks X-750 List of articles that I have screwed over 11:08, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

I think Joest only used it in 2006 for Le Mans while Champion Racing used for ALMS season. The wikipedia french version of Joest Racing also states this but with no sources.Rpo.castro (talk) 17:54, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply Rpo.castro, that seems to be what I'm getting, this article says "Expect Joest, a semi-factory European Audi team, to field two R10s at Sebring and Le Mans, likely with the help of Pompano Beach-based Champion Audi, which won Le Mans last year." (just in case you don't have a ProQuest subscription) So what I get from this is that Joest fielded the R10 at Le Mans and Sebring, whereas Champion Racing did the rest of the season. The Joest Racing page also says they won the 12 Hours of Sebring and Le Mans but doesn't mention anything else for the rest of the season despite if you look at 2006 American Le Mans Series they won many more races, including the Petit Le Mans, so I guess it was just those two races. Do you agree? X-750 List of articles that I have screwed over 22:15, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with you. I think they focused in developing the car for Le Mans and Sebring is a great test for Le Mans.Rpo.castro (talk) 12:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Reese's 150#Requested move 6 September 2022

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
 

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Reese's 150#Requested move 6 September 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 08:26, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Major discrepancies in 1962-65 World Sportscar Championship articles

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sports Car Racing#Major discrepancies in 1962-65 World Sportscar Championship articles regarding discrepancies in these articles. I realise what I put is very long, but would appreciate any help anyone can offer there, in particular if someone has access to the book Time in Two Seats which is used as a source in those articles. Thanks. A7V2 (talk) 10:59, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

IMSA GTP

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

If anyone needs information about a specific model that competed in the original GTP class from 1981-1993, I've got a great book that is super comprehensive. More than happy to answer X-750 List of articles that I have screwed over 08:16, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

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