Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 40

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Pavarotti, may he rest in peace

I feel so sad to hear the news, never thought I would. I have never really liked him, I always compared the way his pronounced words, his lips/jaw movement, his singing, his fierce face with Domingo. Domingo is so much opposite than him – reasons why I adore Domingo more than others. But when I heard the news this morning, it is just strikes me hard that we have just lost someone so great in our times. Opera has just lost one of the greatest tenors. I like to ask for your moment to pray for him and may he rest in peace, Amen. - Jay 05:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, one of the great instruments, one of the most beautiful. I must have heard him half a dozen times at least. Something particularly melancoly and personal about the deaths of singers. But the voice lives on - and in his case was well recorded. If only we had similar, complete performances by Jean de Reszke or Caruso! -- Kleinzach 23:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I had started watching the EMI Don Carlo DVD featuring him just a day before he died, after hearing about his illness. Very sad day... Lethe 17:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Help with templates

I would really like to create a temnplate like the one found here on Rossini's opera. Can someone help?

Thank you Mrlopez2681 01:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes. How can we help? Actually I've just seen that you are an expert on uploading and documenting free, (non-fair use) images to WP. Perhaps you can help us? That would be great. -- Kleinzach 03:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Lopez, I have replied your msg to my talkpage - Jay 05:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Jennifer Ringo

This article, unusually, comes with a "Fair use rationale": "This article is an exact copy of information provided by Ms. Ringo's artistic agent, Michel Glotz, on her website . . . ." Is this OK on WP? The contributor Mike hayes has done plenty of other articles here. -- Kleinzach 23:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, had to delete that: you can't do this. We don't accept restrictions of this type when copyright is waived: you simply have to license everything into the public domain. Our exceptions to this rule just don't cover a whole article. Moreschi ^Talk 20:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

FAR of Dmitri Shostakovich

Hi folks, I have put the Dmitri Shostakovich page up for FAR. One particular problem of potential interest here is is the musical and aesthetic context provided for Lady Macbeth. Given the importance of the opera to the genre in the 20th Century, as well as the composer's own fate, review and comment would be particularly welcome. Eusebeus 15:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletions (WP:PROD)

see Archive 37 for the immediately preceding archived PROD section

Do not comment on these articles here; rather discuss on the talk page for the article nominated for deletion. If you agree with the proposed deletion, you don't have to do anything. If you think the article merits keeping, the remove the {{prod}} template and make an effort to improve the article so that it clearly meets the notability and verifiability criteria.

• 12 September 2007 - expires 17 September
  • McHenry Boatwright (PROD by User:Stormbay; "McHenry Boatwright 's life most probably inspired Richard Powers' The Time of Our Singing.") --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Philip Eisenberg

The article has received a notability tag. It is quite likely he is a notable individual, but the article's wording and lack of source make that difficult to assert. Adding sources that establish his status as a major prompter or opera personality would greatly help. I found this and this, but most likely this project's participants know just where to look to find the good stuff. Circeus 03:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Can a prompter (or a stage manager or any other invisible technician) be notable? I placed the tag to question this. If Eisenberg has received prominent public recognition (awards etc.) it might be that he is notable. On the other hand he may only be known locally - in the San Francisco opera world. -- Kleinzach 04:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I've put this up for deletion. Please contest this if you can demonstrate notability. -- Kleinzach 23:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This is now at Afd here. -- Kleinzach 03:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

New opera article checking: Help!

New opera articles are appearing every day. Care of Alex, they can be seen at User:AlexNewArtBot/OperaSearchResult

I've been trying to check them every day, but it's been taking up more and more of my time and I'd be grateful for some help. What this entails is:

• 1. Checking that bona fide articles have the opera project banner. This is important because it enables the bot to find the articles when compiling the the To do list and the Small to-do list etc.

• 2. Checking that the articles are categorized - often they are not. (Depending on the articles I usually either put an {{uncategorized}} tag on them or put at least one category.)

• 3. Checking that the article is worthwhile etc. If the article appears to be self-promotion (student opera singers etc.), it may be necessary to put a {{music-importance}} (or similar) tag on it.

I wonder whether anybody would be willing to take on one (or more?) of these chores? Thanks.

-- Kleinzach 00:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I've put User:AlexNewArtBot/OperaSearchResult on my watchlist, and am quite happy to monitor it for the time-being and to do 1-3 as necessary. In checking the current list I found some problematic stuff on Maria Caniglia and Piotr Beczala (see below). Best, Voceditenore 15:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Much appreciated! There are about three or four, sometimes half a dozen, new articles a day and most of them have some problem or other. What I have tried to do is mark them up - with the necessary tags, most of which are here - so other people will take them up and they won't fall off the radar. Obviously it's ideal if the creator cleans them up and in many cases this does happen. Usually it's not worth trying to do it yourself and I've only drawn attention to the articles here in special cases (e.g. Jennifer Ringo in Archive 40). -- Kleinzach 23:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Maria Caniglia and Piotr Beczala- Copy Vio?

In the Caniglia article, a biography by Erik Eriksson from the All Music Guide is listed as a 'reference' via [1]. The problem is that the Wikipedia article consists almost enirely of large chunks of the All Music Guide article reproduced verbatim. The same is true of the Beczala - verbatim chunks from the 'reference' listed [2]. Both articles were created by User:NewYork1956. I haven't got the time/energy to re-write them. I'm tempted to just revert them to stubs. Is that OK? Best, Voceditenore 15:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

User:NewYork1956 could be producing a lot more of these. I'd be inclined to put a {{copypaste}} tag on the articles and ideally contact him if you have a moment. If he doesn't rewrite them then perhaps it's better to get them deleted - though Caniglia, in particular, is obviously major. -- Kleinzach 23:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

"User:NewYork1956 could be producing a lot more of these." No, I checked via this. These seem to be the only ones. Since they're fairly recent, perhaps he's intending to return to them for a re-write. In any case, I've now put a {{copypaste}} tag on both. Voceditenore 11:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Need opinion and help

I was doing some checking on "arias category" when I noticed an orphaned article (Il dolce suono... Ardon gl'incensi... Spargi d'amaro pianto) which is also redundant with Il dolce suono. The contents in the orphaned article have neither citation nor reference; doesn’t look like aria or synopsis; it is more to personal opinion for the Act 3, Donizetti's "Lucia di Lammermoor". It was categorized as “Aria” before i removed it. My problem is, I find it very hard to request for the orphaned article to be deleted. May I know what shall I do or.. perhaps I just close my eyes and leave it be? Some of the contents can be used in Act 3 synopsis (may be and may be not). Any opinion? I have already adding it in AFD page .- Jay 03:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the deletion/consensus policy in AFD, hopefully if someone could give me some briefing. Say that, all of us here agree for the article to be merged with Lucia di Lammermoor and soon to be deleted, who will perform the task, the admin or any of us? Secondly, how long do we have to wait to do the merging, is there a period for us to wait like a week or 2? And lastly, after someone has “manually” transfers (merged) the valuable contents to Lucia di Lammermoor, do we have to “again”, request for the page to be deleted? - Jay 08:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion says that debate may last up to five days, after which the deletion process will begin. There's a pretty clear consensus about this article already, so it may disappear quite soon. On the other hand, there may be a backlog of articles going through the process (which is handled by an admin). I'd suggest replicating any valuable content wherever it fits as soon as possible, while leaving the AFD article as is. --GuillaumeTell 10:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Aria translations - a concern

I've seen at least 3 aria articles (there may be more) where the English translation is taken from the Aria Data Base - (Una furtiva lagrima, Il dolce suono, Celeste Aida) The site is listed as the reference, but no credit is given to the translator(s), nor does permission seem to have been given. Post-1923 translations (even of out-of-copyright texts) are still copyright themselves. See also this note on the The Aria Data Base:

Please note that all materials on the Database have been the result of someone's hard work. Except where noted, text in the Database is copyrighted by me, Robert Glaubitz, and should only be used outside of personal use with my permission. The translations and MIDI files are the copyrighted work of many contributors whose valuable work has made this Database what it is today. You may use their MIDIs and translations for your personal use but please respect their rights and ask permission before you put a translation on a program or a MIDI on your website. In general, if you wish to use a translation in a recital program or a publication or if you wish to use a MIDI on a website or a CD, you must ask the contributor for their permission or else you could be held accountable legally. Every contributor I have worked with is very nice and will probably have no problem with your request!

Comments? Best. Voceditenore 12:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, there were few arias where the translations were taken from the site even before I joined Wiki. I just continued the “culture” because I thought it was allowed, besides, I put on the reference at the footnote indicates that the translations were taken from the site. Here are few suggestions, choose one:-

1. Write the translators name under the translation text (I have done adding their names & e-mail)

2. E-mail to ask for permission?

3. Use the translation as a guideline and change the words

4. Delete the translation.

Any suggestions or comments? - Jay 13:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's enough to simply list the translators' names (and I'm also not sure how happy they'd be about having their email addresses published on Wikipedia). Their translations are copyright, and if they are reproduced verbatim on Wikipedia without their permission, I would think it's still a CopyVio. Your option 3 could be OK. Alternatively, it might be better to delete the translation until permission has been received. Best, Voceditenore 14:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, this is what I will do. I will send e-mail to all of them today, and lets wait for at least 4 days (until: 24 Sept 2007). If there is no reply/consent from them, we delete the translation or change the words. What do you think? I sincerely feel they do not mind having their names there because that is what they do in the Aria DB (published their names + e-mail). It is a big credit/compliment for them to see their names in WIKI, dont you think? But.. it would be great if any of you could start "changing" the words by now. So, at least if there is no cooperation from them, we can still keep the "amended" translation. This makes me sound so evil. Haha - Jay 14:39, 20 September

2007 (UTC)

It is preferable to translate from scratch than to tinker with someone else's text. Anyone know Italian?--Peter cohen 15:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Peter. It's better to translate da capo. Obviously the translations will still be similar, because often there really are only one or two optimal translations for a word or phrase. But at least it will be 'honest'. In many cases, it will also be an improvement. The translations on the Aria Data Base are of variable quality since often the translator is not translating into their native language. I can translate from Italian, but my time is really limited right now and I'd rather hold off to see what response we get from the ADB translators re giving permission. Best, Voceditenore 17:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

These are list of the arias, if any of you could help changing the words. I have just sent the e-mail to all the translators from The Aria Database.

• Vissi d'arte
• Non piangere, Liù
• Toreador Song
• Celeste Aida
• Il dolce suono
• Una furtiva lagrima
• Largo al factotum - Jay 14:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I may be in a minority here, but I don't think these articles belong in Wikipedia. I think they should be in WikiSource. Jay did try to put them there, but he got no cooperation from the monoglot WikiSource editors who simply didn't understand what it was all about, while I and other editors here didn't have time to get involved. However ultimately WikiSource is the only place they belong. -- Kleinzach 23:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Kleinzach, it should be in Wikisource and then link to the "opera title" articles in here. But after what had happened couple months back, I do not want to get involved with ppl in Wikisource anymore. Such a waste of time and effort. About the e-mail I sent to the Database Aria website's owner + the translators last night (my time +8.00), all the mails were bounced back. Damn they didnt update their e-mails. For that, I will remove all the translations. If I have time, I will try to use "machine translator" to translate it myself. - Jay 01:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I could knock up some rough and ready translations of a few of these if someone can deal with the formatting afterwards. They won't be too literary, I'm afraid. --Folantin 07:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

As for the formatting, I 'll do it. - Jay 07:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Kleinzach too. If there's something significant to say about the aria, it ought to be in the opera's article itself under 'noted arias', 'synopsis', or 'context and analysis' - most of these aria articles only have a couple of lines of introduction which largely repeat what is already in the article on the opera (or should be). The actual lyrics and/or translation can be provided via external links in a Resources section for the opera article, since the WikiSource option seems to be a non-starter at the moment. Note also that even in the USA Turandot (published post 1923) is still in copyright, and posting the original lyrics (or a translation, which is considered a 'derivative work' and therefore covered by the copyright of the original lyrics) of 'Nessun dorma', 'Non piangere, Liù', and 'In questa reggia' are copy vios. The single aria articles are also problematic in that some of them are not referenced at all, e.g. Un di, felice, eterea. I would suggest that we not start any new aria articles, gradually work to merge the contents of the ones we currently have in the Opera excerpts category into the main opera articles (with possible exceptions for really iconic pieces like 'Nessun dorma', 'Vesti la giubba', 'Ride of the Valkyries', etc. but even there I'm not sure about all of them). Best, Voceditenore 08:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've done a few quick translations as an exercise (this doesn't necessarily mean I'll vote to keep these pages). Let's wait and decide the whole issue of aria articles here before we proceed any further - possibly along the lines Voceditenore suggests. I agree that we shouldn't be touching any material still in copyright. --Folantin 08:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Francois Chassaigne (b. circa 1850)

There is no article for this composer, and I had never heard of him before, but he wrote an operetta called Le Droit d'aînesse (librettists Leterrier & Vanloo) that was a flop in Paris in 1883 but did well in the English-speaking world in a version by H. B. Farnie under the name Falka, playing in London in 1883 and then in America and Australia, as well as revivals at least into the 1890s. Sheet music for the "Falka Waltz" was published.[3] and there is information about the English version [here. Does the composer deserve an article? Does anyone know of anything else that he wrote? Best regards, -- Ssilvers 20:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

If you do a search under Francis Chassaigne (interestingly, the first name he's most often called by in France and Italy), you find a bit more. I found him mentioned as the composer of the following other opérette: Jeanne la sabotière, Les noces improvisées, Actéon et le centaure (sometimes just called Actéon) There is also a mention of him and a small photo in the memoirs of a late 19th century French chanteur, Paulus.[4] The only other biographical info I found online was that he died in 1922. There seems to have been an article about him in Issue N° 101 of Opérette [5] You might be able to find more in French reference books. Best, Voceditenore 07:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Wagner family tree

At Kleinzach's request, there is now an English-language article: Wagner family tree. I gather quite a few people are working on Wagner family members and thought you might appreciate the link! Cheers, Cricketgirl 23:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Much appreciated. -- Kleinzach 23:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism - Plácido Domingo

From 17 September until today, I have to monitor Plácido Domingo article almost every hour (except my bedtime). IP users from various locations keep changing his birth date from 1941 to 1934 and also other things. 2 days ago, I received reply letter from the office of Plácido Domingo in Germany asking which photos in his official website that I want, so then they could give WIKI the written permission to publish it. I replied the mail yesterday asking for 11 photos including few of his album covers for his discography. I also given them links to Domingo’s article and List of recordings by Plácido Domingo for them to check and verify whether the contents are correct. What worries me so much if they (Domingo’s staff) visited the article when this vandalism happened and I was not there to undo it back. Can anybody here lock the article from IP users at least for a week or... forever? - Jay 07:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jay, I just added three more references for the 1941 birth date, Encyclopedia Britannica, Concise Grove Dictionary of Music, and The Encyclopedia of World Biography. Note that some of the birth date edits are not necessarily in bad faith. Unfortunately, the 2nd edition of Rosenthal, H. and Warrack, J. (1979) The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Opera, Oxford University Press. p. 137 erroneously lists his birthdate as January 12, 1934. This error may have been perpetuated in other sources as well, although obviously not in Grove. On a general note, I looked at the references given in the Wikipedia article and notice that the vast majority come from Domingo's web site. I think it would give the article greater credibility and possibly help prevent vandalism, if other, more independent. references were also cited. I can supply some sources for you if you need them. Best, Voceditenore 09:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Further note: Unfortunately, in all the edit warring that seems to have gone on, some useful footnotes disappeared, e.g. This [the 1934 birthdate] was shown by the author Daniel Snowman to be an erroneous assumption on obtaining Domingo's birth certificate from the Madrid authorities. Here are the references for that: Snowman, Daniel, The World of Placido Domingo, McGraw-Hill, 1985 ISBN: 0070595275 and Matheopoulos, Helena, Plácido Domingo - My Operatic Roles, Little Brown, 2000, ISBN: 0316643769. Best, Voceditenore 09:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

That Concise Oxford has been superseded by Warrack, J. and West, E. The Oxford Dictionary of Opera (1992) where the correct 1941 date is given. I've added this to Voceditenore's list in the note. --GuillaumeTell 11:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

This is getting out of hand. See the today's revision history and my comment on the article's Talk Page Is there an administrator here who can temporarily lock this page to anonymous editors? It would he helpful, I think. For now, I've left the 1934 date in the article, but corrected it in a footnote. Hopefully the miscreants won't notice it for a while and go away (at least temporarily). Best,Voceditenore 15:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please. Can we get the admin to lock it now! - Jay 15:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, it has been locked. Now I can go to bed! - Jay 15:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Now these ppl moved to ms:Plácido Domingo, and other languages too! - Jay 09:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Laura Belli: Copyvio

I have marked the article Laura Belli as having content that is a copyright violation. Information on the matter is found on the article page. The article has also been listed at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2007 September 28/Articles. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 22:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Grand Opera

This article is really a tangle and I think needs serious work to sort it out. Info is scattered all over and the article does not read in an orderly 'encyclopaedic' manner. also it is thin on the ground in many important aspects. Examples: not enough on the origins of GO, the section on French grand opera needs fleshing out, there is nothing on the Wagnerian critique of grand opera, etc. I would welcome the opinions of WP:Opera participants as I would like to undertake a (gradual) rewrite with colleagues' cooperation. Smerus 09:35, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead. I'm really not an expert on Grand Opera but I have a few sources and I know a little bit about what came immediately before. --Folantin 13:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree, the article doesnt cite any references or sources at all - Jay 15:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

• I have made a start. Haven't touched the section on 'Italian grand opera' yet.Smerus 16:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
• OK, I have now completed the first cast. Please take a look and make any changes or suggestions you think appropriate.Smerus 08:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The intro starts with Grand Opera is a genre of opera generally in five acts. But to my knowledge and also if you goggle around, all operas with more than 3 acts are considered “Grand Opera”, not necessarily have to be in 5 acts. So, instead of saying generally in 5, can we change it to "4". Correct me if I’m wrong - Jay 15:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - I have changed to 'four or five'. Also have added template listing the Grand Operas 'proper' of 1828-1850.Smerus 18:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering why Grand Opera is capitalized through this article. I think this dates back a while. (Grove uses 'grand opéra'.) The navigation box entitled 'the golden age of Grand Opera' looks odd with this mixture of lower and upper case. (Also there are a lot of stray commas, missing spaces etc. in the table - I'd fix them but I'm not sure where the template is.) -- Kleinzach 01:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

• {{Template:Grand Opera 1828-1850}}. I'm cool about changing to lower case - opinions please? (also a signature for the previous comment?) :-}Smerus 13:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. I'm also cool about my comment being split. You can copy my signature over if you like!:-} -- Kleinzach 13:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Buondelmonte's article originally had an interesting section on the 'Number of performances of French Grand Operas at the Opéra in Paris' here. This seems to have disappeared. Can we re-instate it? -- Kleinzach 01:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Hasn't been deleted - removed to List of performances of French Grand Operas at the Paris Opéra and signposted as such in article. will also add it to 'see also' at foot of article.Smerus 11:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Right. I've bannered it. The composers will need wikifying. -- Kleinzach 11:53, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

To me Aida is a grand opera and among the best of Verdi’s. Why not it be included in the Grand Operas of the 1850s and 1860s - change it to 1875 perhaps? It is also listed in the top 20, compared to the “confused” Don Carlos. I believe Aida receives more demand until today compared to Don Carlos based on the arias, interesting set (esp at The Met), storyline and more lively! - This is just my personal opinion. - Jay 12:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

It is given a full mention in the article, under 'Italy' Smerus 13:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Non-Notables for deletion?

In my daily monitoring of the new opera articles bot I've found the following which I'm considering putting on Articles for deletion...

• Pot-Pourri (group): Non notable, reads like an advertisement, no references. All the web references to them that I could find were basically their own advertising. Have I missed something?
• Sarah Kraus: Alas, another fledgling opera singer who does not have a notable career, but is obviously hoping that a Wikipedia article will help. The references and 'achievements' are all for student productions and concerts. Has not won any major music competitions. Has not sung (even a small role) in any major opera house or with any major orchestra. Her one recording listed is of a live Manhattan School of Music performance in NYC of Thomas Pasatieri's The Seagull. She had an extremely small role, Paulina. The actual performance was reviewed in both the New York Times and New York Magazine. She wasn't even mentioned. This is her Google search (minus listings of the Seagull cd in online record shops). Comments?

Best, Voceditenore 13:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree with putting them up for deletion. The onus is on the creators of the articles to respond if they want to save the articles. -- Kleinzach 11:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)