Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 6

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Don Giovanni / Norma infoboxes

A new contributor called Dan pierson has made infoboxes for Don Giovanni and Norma. Maybe we should have an opinion on this. Are they useful? Is the info relevant or is it duplicated? Do they look good? - Kleinzach 14:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

A similar infobox was axed by the classical music people here. I think these are really helpful if (1) people often look up the article to find a quick fact that would be listed in an infobox, or (2) the presence of the box gives the reader a quick overview of the person/event/etc.. I don't think (1) applies here, and I think any possible operatic overview providable by an infobox would be unhelpfully incomplete. Plus, as Kleinzach suggests, it's pretty well duplicative of the first paragraph. I say no (but I appreciate Dan Pierson's effort to be bold!). Fireplace 15:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I think these can be helpful, if well thought-out and consistently done. I too applaud Dan Pierson's boldness, but this particular example is unattractive, starting with the bright yellow colour, which looks unprofessional. Marc Shepherd 15:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

He's also done one for L'incoronazione di Poppea. I agree about the yellow and the need for further thought. The other infoboxes in the Performing Arts area duplicate a lot of the information, too - see, e.g. Top Hat, Show Boat, William Shakespeare(!), but I don't mind that, and the posters/programme covers/whatever are attractive. So a tentative Yes from me. --GuillaumeTell 17:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Yuck. That yellow looks awful. However, they're useful summaries, so keep, but get rid of the yellow. Blue is a less glaring colour. Cheers, Moreschi 18:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Responding to GuillaumeTell: I absolutely agree about images of the posters/etc, but those are separable from infoboxes. Fireplace 19:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I like infoboxes which offer a useful collection of facts, typically in geographical articles (e.g. Vosges, not necessarily repeated in the article. In our case, however I don't see that operas can be reduced to essential information in quite the same way. There are also design problems here (there is a big choice of colours that can be used on WP so the awful yellow could be avoided), and he doesn't seem to have made a basic template for the boxes.

There is another consideration as well. Is he just goiong to do his favourite operas - or all of them? I don't see much point in just doing three or four - this brings me back to the point about there not being a template - just a mass of code on each page. - Kleinzach 17:43, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what Kleinzach means about "there not being a template." There is indeed a template—although it's not one of the better ones on Wikipedia. I do agree that it needs to be populated for a large number of pages to create a coherent look. One guy just updating his favourite operas doesn't create any consistency. Marc Shepherd

I was wrong. There is a template and it is here: Template:Infobox_opera.

So what should we do? Our options would seem to be; 1. Delete as opera project decision, 2. Edit the template directly (do we have a volunteer?) 3. Invite Dan pierson to take part in the discussion here with a view to him improving the box and applying it to more operas. (My own preference would be option 1. I think we have better things to spend our time on. - Kleinzach 00:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I support (1), per my comments above and the analogous discussion about the classical music infobox. (I left a message on Dan pierson's talk page a few days ago point him to this discussion.) Fireplace 02:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings, but I tend to agree with Kleinzach, not because it couldn't be useful, but because the effort to make it useful would be considerable, and "we have better things to spend our time on." Marc Shepherd 03:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Good. I make that 3 votes for deletion and 2 (unethusiastic?) votes against, so the 'no's have it. I'll leave Dan pierson a (hopefully) tactful note on his user talk page. - Kleinzach 11:50, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I certainly have no time to spend on the infobox, but I still think that if the mysterious Dan peirson was prepared to discuss the matter and do the work (on the basis of a consensus, of course), it could be useful. He appeared like a meteor on 13 July, made the following contributions: Special:Contributions/Dan_pierson on the same day and then disappeared again. It was only three days ago - maybe he'll reappear. (There was also an infobox for I puritani, in day-glo green, which Kleinzach has just removed - but it can still be seen via History.) --GuillaumeTell 16:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I left Dan peirson a friendly note and made the deletions. I was surprised to find that most of the boxes had been put there anonymously (mainly Bellini operas). Perhaps he lost his password or something? In the future infoboxes could be useful for detailing current productions info/stats etc. but I don't think we are near that stage yet. - Kleinzach 17:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello, It my the guy who came up with the infobox. Sorry about going over everyone's head, I didn't realize there was a group working on opera. The infobox I put up was not what I intended to be a final draft, and that is why (with the exception of Don Giovanni(Sorry about that, got ahead of myself)) I stuck with smaller operas. I am really sorry about the yellow, I did start looking for other colors (I agree the green wasn't much better), since that made the web-page look like a Monopoly board. I was looking to do something similar to what has been done to the operas at the Italian Wikiedia site. I agree that infoboxs are a little redundant since they mostly just repeat whatever is said in the first paraghraph. That is true of all or most infoboxs on Wikipedia, but it is a handy index and link to other articles. Since someone said that 'you have other things to worry about' I can understand, and so I'll leave the infobox thing up to you. Again I didn't want to step on anyones toes, I just wanted to spruce up the opera section. (Again sorry about the yellow.)

Also I thought I was signed i, I wasn't trying to change everything anonymously. --Dan_Pierson

Welcome Dan, and thanks for your note. We'd be delighted if you liked to join the project. There is indeed a need for illustrations on the pages. I don't know whether you might be interested in taking on the role of our 'picture researcher'? In particular we need pictures of composers. In some cases it's fairly easy job mving them from the German, French and Italian WP. (In the past some people have posted CD covers but these may be best left to the sections on recordings.) Anyway, that's just an idea. All the best. - Kleinzach 02:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

New names on the missing singers list

I have added a significant load of names of important opera singers such as Ludwig Weber, Ludwig Suthaus, Otto Edelmann, Anton Dermota, Gerhard Unger, Thomas Stewart, Robert Lloyd, Aage Haugland, Ferdinand Frantz, Franz Mazura, Hans Sotin, Franz Crass, Maria Stader, Edith Mathis, Hertha Töpper and more. All those articles are to be found on the german Wikipedia, and most of them on the french. RCS 15:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Fine - provided everyone added in is really notable. Moreschi 12:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they are. It seems to be a common assumption that somebody who's not yet cited on en:wiki is not famous. Thomas Stewart - to take but one example - worked several times with Herbert von Karajan, Hans Knappertsbusch, Rafael Kubelik and Pierre Boulez. Ferdinand Frantz (another example) was Wilhelm Furtwängler's favourite Wotan and Rudolf Kempe's favourite Hans Sachs. Maria Stader was Ferenc Fricsay's favourite soprano. You can check them all up on de:wiki. RCS 14:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

RCS's singers are indeed worthwhile (welcome to the Opera Project RCS!). Some of the earlier singers can be checked in The Record of Singing. There are still many, many notable singers that lack articles (e.g. in the same group, Maria Reining, Elisabeth Höngen, Anton Dermota, Julius Patzak, Peter Anders, Erich Kunz, and Paul Schoeffler). - Kleinzach 17:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I've already quoted Dermota, one of the greatest tenors of his times (by the way, i am the author of de:Anton Dermota and fr:Anton Dermota as well as of 70 other singer biographies on both those Wikis). Cheers, RCS 17:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The full list is here and here. Just help yourself ! RCS 17:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

That's great. Are you intending to do them in English? - Kleinzach 17:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

No, i'm not fluent. I've been waiting for someone to pick those names up by himself, but i've given up. Imagine that : i wrote the german and the french articles about Elizabeth Harwood and Philip Langridge several months before some english-speaking chap did it for the english speaking encyclopaedia ! There is a big, a huge deficit on en:wiki if you compare the total number of articles and the number of articles on opera singers, especially on english-speaking ones ! Still nothing about de:Robert Lloyd, for instance, one of the most versatile singers of his generation - this is so sad ! Sorry to get emotive but i hav to let my frustration out. Please translate my articles, or use them as a base for stubs. Thank you so much ! RCS 19:10, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm attempting to do some from your French list, however I'm not fluent in French, so you should probably check me. Mak (talk) 20:01, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I do. But whenever an article is present in both languages - french and german - the german version is more complete. The Germans just won't let you write only a few lines ! ;-) RCS 20:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'm just going through your list, so now I've done Hermann Uhde and Ludwig Weber. Someone tell me to stop if they're too bad. I'd translate the German ones, but sadly my German simply isn't good enough, although I will look at them. Mak (talk) 20:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll volunteer to do Robert Lloyd (tomorrow, not today). I don't know much German, but it's easy to work out what is being said, and I have a couple of reference-books (and a whole lot of programmes!) with more info on him. BTW, he was born on 2 March, not 2 May, 1940, according to both my books. --GuillaumeTell 21:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I translated Robert Lloyd (singer) quite easily (with a little help from [1]), but left out the POV sentence about his being the most important British bass since Raimund Herincx. I'll fix the Sadlers Wells link (should be ENO) and add some other details later today. --GuillaumeTell 11:07, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Note to RCS: Your written English looks excellent to me! Other non-native speakers have contributed here and we have polished up the English afterwards. As you can see we have a very enthusiastic project team here. From having a fairly basic (and often inaccurate) set of articles six months ago we have already come a long way, although we have been concenrating more on composers and works than singers. - Kleinzach 23:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I prefer to go through the translations once they are made and add or correct some details. Look at Ludwig Weber, i've added a whole section now. I just listened to him singing Gurnemanz in Knappertsbusch's 1951 Parsifal yet again - wow, there has NEVER been a better singer for this part ! And he was already past his prime - unbelievable ! RCS 07:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Category:Lyric comedy and Category:Lyric drama

Most of the lyric-whatever categories have now been deleted. What about these two? Is there any reason to keep them? I think they started life as Italian genres but have become random collections. - Kleinzach 01:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see these as being very useful. Moreschi 17:01, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Lyric comedy is already empty. I would de-populate Lyric drama. Marc Shepherd 16:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Lyric comedy is now up for deletion (BTW re-naming/re-directing is not an option for cats.) If anyone wants to help de-populate lyric drama i'd appreciate the help! - Kleinzach 06:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. We can now put the cat on CFD. Moreschi 18:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I have put it up for deletion. - Kleinzach 02:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Joining the Project

Sorry for such an easy question, but to join the project, do I just add my username to the list of contributers? --Doublea 02:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you add your name to the list of "participants" in the 5th section of the main project page. Regards. - Kleinzach 02:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The Tragedy Category

Continuing the work on the genre cats . . . we have a large 'hold-all' miscellany category simply called 'Tragedy', which is sometimes mistaken for a drama (rather than opera) classification. It has 64 items listed. Should we delete this in favour of smaller, specific genre cats (e.g. Tragédies en musique, Dramma tragico)? - Kleinzach 02:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

It might be helpful to have the specific genres be subcategories of Tragedy (also, are there really no operas that are "officially" marked tragedy?). Fireplace 02:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

At some stage we will have to get into this. It's complicated and I only have access to the second volume of Grove here. As you probably realized opera seria also covers tragedy and there are various French and Italian genres which include the word tragedy as a noun or as an adjective. (The French in particular loved these classifications.)

I think it would be easier to get rid of 'Tragedy' first - note that it isn't even 'Tragic opera' - as cats can't be moved or redirected only deleted, and then tackle the genuine genres like Tragédies en musique etc. one by one. - Kleinzach 04:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Most of the operas in this category aren't what I'd call a tragedy in the Aristotelian (or Shakespearean) sense, and some, e.g. Lulu and From the House of the Dead, aren't tragedies in any sense, even though people die in them. I think that the only safe way to categorise operas is to use the librettist/composer's designation, if there is one, and not to invent one where there isn't. These are given in the Penguin/Viking Guide as well as Grove. I agree with getting rid of 'Tragedy' as a start. --GuillaumeTell 10:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. If we are agreed that the present category is a liability I'd appreciate having help in de-populating it. - Kleinzach 14:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

It's empty. I still think it's potentially useful per my comments above, but you seem to have a game plan for genres and I'll follow your lead. Fireplace 15:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, that was really fast! I have put it up for deletion. I do indeed have a 'game plan' for the cats - pretty much in line with GuillaumeTell's opinion above. I think it's easier for us to delete the meaningless cats first and then work on restructuring afterwards. Doing it the other way would be confusing IMO. - Kleinzach 16:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Prodded CNN opera

Non-notable neologism used briefly by a few critics to describe a few operas. Better to mention it (or not) on the opera articles. De-prod if you object. Fireplace 12:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me. Moreschi 14:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

nth most performed opera in North America

User:Doublea has apparently got a list of most-performed operas from somewhere and has been busy adding the information to lots of articles (I assume: I just looked at the two - Aida and The Barber of Seville - that are on my watchlist, and at his/her list of contributions, which are all edits to opera entries). I put a "citation required" sticker on those two and a note on her/his User Page suggesting a) joining the Project and b) posting here with further and better particulars about the source of the information. I await developments. --GuillaumeTell 21:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Even if the information is up to date, surely that data changes regularly. Fireplace 21:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't cite the information, but I posted the link to the website once on one of the opera pages, and it got deleted. Anyways, the website is: http://www.operaworld.com/cornerstones/index.shtml [2] . It's called Cornerstones, and it is a collaberation between Boston Lyric Opera and The Minnisota Opera companies (on behalf of Opera America); they counted all of this, so I think it's interesting for readers to have these statistics. Sorry once again for not citing or anything. I'm sorry if these don't follow the Wikipeda regulations. By the way, I posted this information on all twenty operas on the list.--Doublea 21:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, but Cornerstones doesn't seem to say where they got their figures from or what they are based on or what the figures actually are. Maybe we should ask them. --GuillaumeTell 00:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

This appears to be an initiative by the Boston Lyric and Minnesota (both rather minor companies) rather than Opera America as a whole, also no time period or actual stats are cited. For their purposes - the promotion of opera in America - it's all reasonable, but here we are presenting facts from a NPOV and an international perspective here so perhaps it is not appropriate unless our phrasing is non-committal (e.g. "One American website associated with companies X and Y claims that Aida is the 16th most performed opera in north America' (or whatever). - Kleinzach 01:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I e-mailed them to get some figures, and I'm hoping for a reply. I'll let you guys know if they give me any. --Doublea 02:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

So, I e-mailed them and the basis of the list is based on the number of productions of the operas since 1980. They gave me these statistics. So, I don't know whether you guys want this information to be in the articles or not. --Doublea 19:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

How about putting the information here? Or is it substantial? And is it unpublished? - Kleinzach 03:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The representative of OperaAmerica sent me a Word document containing the Top 10 to 20 operas per year since 1980 according to the number of times the opera was produced per year in North America. I can add up the number of productions; it wouldn't be a problem. However, the only problem is that it is OperaAmerica statistics, so I'm not sure I can give the information without any sort of consent given to Wikipedia by Opera America. --Doublea 15:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

One way to handle this would be to do an article about Opera America and put the information there. - Kleinzach 16:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that would be a good idea, and we can put the list there. However, wouldn't Wikipedia still need to get rights from Opera America in order to release the figures? Becuase it's not like they gave me permission to put those numbers in public, and it's not like they ever put those numbers on their website for everyone to see. You guys know better than me about this....--Doublea 22:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd recommend going ahead and doing the article with links to the website etc., then tell OA about the article, asking for extra info. also for permission to put their data there. If they don't want their list on WP you can then ask for a public link. There are a number of other organizations in the world like OA and it would be good to cover them as they have a lot of vital information. OA is actually one of the smallest of them, the most important is the Deutscher Bühnenverein. - Kleinzach 03:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright then. I'll start the article on Opera America then, just talking about the mission statement, who they are, etc. I'll then ask for permission to use the figures they gave me. If they don't, I'll put the list they provide from the website on. --Doublea 04:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I created the OPERA America page. It could do with some editing though.... --Doublea 23:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

That's great. Will you refer back to this article from the nth most popular operas etc.? Also is there a special reason for putting OPERA in caps? It's normally discouraged on WP. - Kleinzach 02:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll refer back to this article on the others I put the information in. The only reason why I put opera in caps was because that's how they refer to themselves on their own website (OPERA America). I don't know otherwise. --Doublea 02:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I've added reference to OPERA America to all articles I think which mention the statistic. --Doublea 02:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

That's good. Re OPERA, the problem is that it looks like an acronym. I think we need to change it to Opera. Another thing is that we need to add it to a category. I have put in 'Opera' as a temporary measure but perhaps we need a new category such as 'Opera organizations' or 'Opera institutions'. What do other people think? - Kleinzach 02:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll change all the capital opera s to 'normal operas.... --Doublea 03:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I've changed all the OPERA America's to Opera America with the exception of the title. This is because I had previously made a redirect page of Opera America going to OPERA America. I, unfortunately, can't revert it. Can any of you do it, or do I have to list it under the WP:RM page? --Doublea 03:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I've reversed the pages using cut and paste, so OPERA America is now the redirect. - Kleinzach 03:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I wanted to do that, but I thought the discourage the use of cut and paste. --Doublea 03:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

That's right - but I am not sure what you are supposed to do! In this case it's not controversial anyway . . . - Kleinzach 23:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Category:Nationalist operas

Nationalist operas now contains 7 Russian operas, 2 Janacek and something recently composed about the French Revolution. Should we de-populate and delete, or can this category (which in this case is not based on a translation of a foreign term) be rehabilitated? - Kleinzach 03:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't seem to me to be terribly useful. Best, Moreschi 08:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Might be useful in future. I plan to add a couple of Moniuszko operas ("Straszny Dwór", "Halka") and maybe Ferenc Erkel's two famous ones. If you get a Smetana or a Dvorak opera fan coming along, the category would be overflowing in no time. "Ruslan and Lyudmila" needs adding, "Ca ira" needs deleting.--Folantin 09:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I see this has jumped from 9 items (Ca ira deleted) to 16. (Did you add them yourself?) The problem is that they are all eastern European. Is nationalism something that only occurs in eastern Europe? I don't think so. (There is also the distinction between 'national' and 'nationalist' that needs to be addressed. Calling Straszny Dwór the 'national opera' of Poland is quite a different matter from calling it 'nationalist' in the sense of supporting nationalism. )

IMO the best way to do this - if you are interested in a genre category - is to first write a properly-sourced article which defines the genre and then collect together examples. If you collect the examples before you have defined the category, i think we are again going to have random inclusions. - Kleinzach 12:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Neither of the Janacek operas listed is in any way Nationalist or National or anything like that (anyone want to disagree?). The Hussite second part of his The Excursions of Mr. Broucek on the Moon and in the 15th Century might qualify, but altogether I'd favour deletion of the category (along the lines of my view expressed up above). --GuillaumeTell 20:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The consensus here seems to be against keeping this category. I will also vote for deletion rather than maintain this as an east European only classification, bearing in mind that we do have special categories for Czech, Russian and polish etc. operas anyway. So I will de-populate (again any help will be appreciated) and put it up for deletion. - Kleinzach 15:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

This is now up for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 July 22. - Kleinzach 02:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I added those. I wouldn't have put the Janacek pieces there (the only one of his works which qualifies is probably "Sarka"). I thought nationalism in music was a generally accepted term, implying use of folk themes, national subjects and some degree of rejection of the Italian/Austro-German/French musical mainstream. A work like "Straszny Dwór" was also strongly nationalist politically too, which is why it was banned. It's no surprise that nationalist operas tend to come from 19th century Russia and eastern Central Europe. I could have added some Georgian and Armenian pieces and - though I don't know enough about the subject- there might be works from Scandinavia or Spain which would qualify (that's certainly the case with non-operatic music). But if they all came from the eastern end of Europe, what's the problem? As far as I know all "bel canto" operas come from Italy, but nobody is too worried about broadening the geographical scope in that category. Whatever the case, I won't push too hard for this category to be reinstated since I don't have the time to work on it right now. But there are some far more deserving candidates for deletion out there. "Operas by Astor Piazzolla" for instance. AFAIK he only wrote one!--Folantin 08:46, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

On second thoughts, "Jenufa" should probably be in there as well. Plus something from a more westerly bit of Europe, Joseph Parry's "Blodwen", the first Welsh opera.--Folantin 09:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Our discussion has been a bit confused. If you (Folantin) had written (what you have explained above) earlier I would have held off from de-populating and recommending for deletion. (I did start off by asking if the category could be rehabilitated.) Thematic (as opposed to stylistic/technical) genres are tricky to define and in this case we had no article, no references and no definition. In any case, I still have doubts about this as a catch-all for non-Italian/German/French works, and also wonder wonder whether what you are referring to isn't 'national' rather than 'nationalist'.

Re- 'bel canto' please note this is treated as a term not a genre category on WP. Re - Blodwen, we can't categorize articles that don't exist. - Kleinzach 14:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I just assumed musical nationalism was a fairly well-known term. It's not quite the same as political nationalism and it's not just a catch-all for non-Italian/German/French works, since it only really applies to (certain) operas of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries (for instance, Janacek's "Sarka" is nationalist, "The Makropulos Case" isn't; Tchaikovksy's "Eugene Onegin" and "The Queen of Spades" wouldn't make the grade either). According to the "Oxford Dictionary of Music" "more decidedly...narrowly nationalistic" composers would include: Glinka, the Russian "Mighty Handful" (or "Five"), Smetana, Dvorak, Grieg, Sibelius, Albéniz, Granados, Turina and Falla. Plus Moniuszko, Erkel and some others. I'm not desperate to save this category or anything, but I wouldn't want to consign it to oblivion permanently with no hope of rehabilitation. Cheers --Folantin 16:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we re-visit this topic later when you have time to write an article on the subject. It needs to be discussed because while the concept may be well-founded (as you suggest) it doesn't necessarily follow that we should treat it as a genre, rather than as a term or (simply) a topic. - Kleinzach 17:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

PS: If you want to get rid of a totally useless category, then chop "Melodramas". --Folantin 16:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

If you mean the genre category 'Melodrama' (singular) then I am aware of the problems. I've already been working on them. - Kleinzach 17:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)