Draft talk:1986 Miran Shah incident

Sources

Three sources that you used for this article do not mention a Pakistani SSG or XI Corps presence during the Second Battle of Zhawar, other than the officer and his NCO who attempted to use an English blowpipe against Soviet and Afghan aircraft.

1. https://novosel.libguides.com/c.php?g=594582&p=4112895 (No mention of SSG/XI involvement)

2. https://community.apan.org/cfs-file/__key/docpreview-s/00-00-09-39-44/2001_2D00_09_2D00_01-The-Campaign-for-the-Caves-_2800_Grau-and-Jalali_2900_.pdf

3. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XILyYPv_3a0C&dq=Pakistan+and+second+battle+of+Zhawar&pg=PA324&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Pakistan%20and%20second%20battle%20of%20Zhawar&f=true AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 16:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

@M Waleed: Can you clarify? —Saqib (talk | contribs) 08:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Well I didn't double check the reference but it is mentioned in the article of Special Service Group from where I added it and I didn't add it in the article about SSG in the first place but XI corps are indeed present as the army in KP where the incident happened falls under XI corps so I added it. Waleed (talk) 09:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

If you read “Afghan Commando Forces” there are no mentions of the SSG or ISI. I looked at the sources word for word. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 10:03, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Never did I mention ISI, and for SSG I copy pasted from the article Special Service Group Waleed (talk) 15:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I am certain you put the ISI in the info box, and if not, you still listed the result as a Pakistani victory despite the fact Afghan mujahideen did bulk of the fighting and were the ones who captured the Afghan commandos.

“ Another battle was taken place between the Soviet paratroopers and the Afghan mujahideen in Kunar in 1986 that suspected the Army Special Service Group's involvement but the Russians dismissed the claim and noted that the battle was fought between the GRU's 15th Spetsnaz Brigade and Abdul Rab Rasul Sayyaf's group.” From the Special Service Group page

You would be delighted to know that Zhawar is not in Kunar, but rather in Khost! That makes this an entirely separate incident. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 16:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

This is an incident which happened completely near the Pakistani city of Miram Shah, and the bulk of fighting and capturing of commandos has another article named Second Battle of Zhawar which goes into detail about what you're trying to mention here, this incident is a part of the Second Battle of Zhawar but it happened across the Durand line. I know your concerns but I try to write in a neutral manner , moreover check Second Battle of Zhawar, then it'll be clear that this incident is a part of it but the whole battle is listed as a partial Soviet victory Waleed (talk) 00:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

This incident is tied to the Second Battle of Zhawar and are both part of each other. The commandos were either way not actually captured by Pakistani forces (as you listed in this article, as well as falsely mentioning Pakistani SSG and reconnaissance planes), rather Yunus Khalis and Haqqani which are both Afghan mujahideen groups. The 38th Commando Brigade landed 5 kilometres inside Pakistan but were captured by the mujahideen during the chaos of the entire battle.

1.”They quickly overran four landing zones and captured many of the DRA commandos. Mujahideen reinforcements moved from Miram Shah in Pakistan to Zhawar and took the commandos from the rear. The commandos were trapped between two forces and were killed or captured. By the end of the day, the Mujahideen captured 530 commandos from the 38th Brigade”

2. “The Mujahideen held a field tribunal. Yunis Khalis and other Mujahideen commanders were the judges. They tried and executed Colonel Qalandar Shah, the commander of the 38th Commando Brigade and another colonel who landed with the brigade to adjust artillery fire. There were 78 other officers among the prisoners. They were given a chance to confess to their crimes from different battles and then all the officers were executed. All the soldiers were given amnesty since they were conscripts who were forced to fight. The amnestied soldiers were asked to perform two years of labor service in exchange for the amnesty. They did their service in logistics, were "reeducated" and released after two years”

3. “And, although the pathfinder commando element that landed in Pakistan was overrun by Mujahideen, these Mujahideen did not get the word to Zhawar. The Zhawar defenders were surprised by the air assault of the commando main body.”

In summary, a Pakistani capture of these commandos is not mentioned anywhere in the document. What you took from the SSG Wikipedia article is actually a separate incident which happened with Soviet forces in Kunar, whereas Zhawar is in Khost province.

Ref: https://community.apan.org/cfs-file/__key/docpreview-s/00-00-09-39-44/2001_2D00_09_2D00_01-The-Campaign-for-the-Caves-_2800_Grau-and-Jalali_2900_.pdf#page20 AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 10:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

The four landing sites were in Afghanistan, the whole strike force didn't land inside Pakistan, those who did were spotted by PAF and captured by Pakistani forces, SSG one is unsourced but not unbased Waleed (talk) 15:11, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

The strike force that were in Pakistan were still captured by Mujahideen present in the area. They crossed the border just to capture the 38th Commando Brigade, and there were already Mujahideen in the area regardless. The SSG one does have a source, but it refers to a different incident in Kunar Province, whereas Zhawar is in Khost Province. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 17:41, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@AfghanParatrooper19891, anyways seems like you've a strong basis for your claims, I won't dispute them , instead you shall list it as Mujahideen victory but I remember reading somewhere Pakistani forces were involved. I'll try to find a source Waleed (talk) 15:14, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@AfghanParatrooper19891, brother I found a source for my claims

Waleed (talk) 15:23, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Brother, this is a great source, but even then it does not mention anything about the commandos (only the ones who landed in Pakistan) being captured by Pakistani forces.

It says this at the end of your source: “Of the prisoners, all the officers were executed. The captured soldiers were compelled to do two years' manual labour in the logistics areas for the Mujahideen and then offered an amnesty” AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 17:49, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@AfghanParatrooper19891, , the start of the page mentions hundreds of SSG being flown to ZHAWAR Waleed (talk) 22:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! However, it does not state that the SSG were involved in their capture and it still counts as Mujahideen victory, however you can add the SSG back into the info box. It’s strange how the two other sources do not mention this. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 01:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Also the source states the Pakistanis had an advisory role over the Mujahideen, but overall, great sources which will benefit us both. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 01:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Also another thing I’ve noticed in this source and another source is that they state a Third Battle of Zhawar took place in 1987, which is confusing. Maybe Wikipedia simply got it wrong? AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 01:16, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I think we shall both co-operate for an article third battle of Zhawar Waleed (talk) 02:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think we have a lot of information about this third battle in 1987 other than those two sources. I did a quick Google search and only recieved what Jalil wrote and it only mentioned a second battle. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 07:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

“The Pakistanis decided to defend the Zhawar camp in 1986 by tak- ing a conventional warfare approach using Haqqani's mujahedin backed by Pakistani advisers.” per the source AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 01:20, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

it states hundreds of SSGs went to defend Zhawar, so their involvement is definitely more than advisory Waleed (talk) 02:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Regardless, there are 100 SSG commandos compared to 700-800 Haqqani mujahideen. It will remain a “Mujahideen partial victory” because this incident is actually the most integral part of the Second Battle of Zhawar, and I use the word partial because the battle continues and concludes as a “DRA–Soviet” victory. The SSG can be added to the info box. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 07:02, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't find the third quote in the source you presented brother Waleed (talk) 15:30, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Strange… I copy and pasted it directly from the source. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 17:50, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Page number, I wanted not a dispute Waleed (talk) 22:22, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@AfghanParatrooper19891, see my other replies Waleed (talk) 06:58, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

@AfghanParatrooper19891

See this

• https://community.apan.org/cfs-file/__key/telligent-evolution-components-attachments/13-14863-00-00-00-24-18-11/2005_2D00_12_2D00_01-Forbidden-Cross_2D00_Border-Vendetta_2D00_Spetsnaz-Strike-into-Pakistan-_2800_Grau-and-Jalali_2900_.pdf?forcedownload=true

So should we make article about this incident Waleed (talk) 06:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Zhawar offensive

Just letting everyone know that this incident doesn’t need its own article and it’s already covered in Battles of Zhawar, Second Battle of Zhawar and Afghan Commando Forces. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 12:51, 7 September 2024 (UTC)