Draft talk:The Batman (franchise)

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@BMA-Nation2020: I wanted to discuss this further on the talk with you. Per my reversion on this being submitted for review, I do not believe this draft warrants inclusion in the mainspace at this time, given there is only one film that exists in this planned franchise. There ought to be more than two projects released for it to even be considered a franchise that exists. Drafts should not be submitted for review without first being discussed by the active editors involved, as it is common courtesy to be on the same page. The formatting and information is all over the place and much of what is discussed is about the development of The Batman (which should mostly be restricted to that film's article), and the extent of Ben Affleck's work on that one film should not be the main focus for an article on a planned franchise. There are several instances, namely in the cast section, without sources. I have been working on a revamp of this draft at my sandbox to address and alleviate my concerns. Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:10, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Revamp

@(a)nnihilation97I WP:BOLDly made the changes per work I was doing in my sandbox. I said I was working on such a revamp in an edit summary here and on this talk page months ago. I'm not sure why you seem to note like the improvements and updates given they brought this draft up to par with other content. The long development of the first film was simply not needed and exhaustive as it is covered at the first film's article better, and this should be about work on the franchise itself. Other changes to the infobox, tables, and cast section were done to avoid this being like a table of contents, to provide reliable sources in an orderly format, and to avoid repetitive headers in cast. They were all out of WP:GOODFAITH, and I don't think individually reverting each change is really being warm to change itself. Also, assuming The Penguin is in 2024 because it will come before Part II isn't reliably sourced, so it should not be included. None of us here WP:OWN this draft, though there should be some agreement to improve it, and I thought I could help with that. Trailblazer101 (talk) 06:27, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

(a)nnihilation97 should explain why they reverted the changes, after which perhaps it would be useful if Trailblazer could explain their changes in more detail. —El Millo (talk) 07:00, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm more than happy to discuss my changes in detail after hearing back from annihilation, as to follow WP:BRD. Trailblazer101 (talk) 14:53, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I must clarify that they have a tendency not to participate in any discussions at all. —El Millo (talk) 16:45, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, that won't fly here at all. For the good of the article, a discussion ought to take place to establish a consensus. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:50, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

In an attempt to find a compromise and common ground, I have undergone some changes at my sandbox version that can be found here that includes and confined overview of The Batman's DCEU development, with a further link pointing to that film article's development section. Trailblazer101 (talk) 00:15, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

To note: I worked on further updates and changes, the current version of which can be found here. Trailblazer101 (talk) 05:20, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Surprise El Millo lol. Trailblazer101 is highly organized in the sandbox. I just feel like the Infobox you have worked on is a little too cluttered with information, while the infobox can just be simplified. The cast section, I believe should be in release order due to Matt Reeves confirming that The Penguin will be released in 2024 and takes place after the events of The Batman & before the events of Part II. I'm fine not including the Arkham series, GCPD series, the multiple planned spin-off films or even the third The Batman film until the official casting and release date. I'm open to coming up with a compromise to make everyone happy but thats where I stand with the Infobox and the Cast. – (a)nnihilation97 (talk) 08:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I modeled the infobox after that at Sony's Spider-Man Universe given the films were the main part when I initially started my sandbox, although since TV series will be equally prevalent, I am open to using the media franchise infobox instead in a similar fashion to DC Universe (franchise). I agree that we should not list other content there such as the Arkham and GCPD series or third Batman film as they have yet to be officially announced let alone in the mainspace. As for The Penguin, I know it has been stated numerous times that it will release before Part II, however, it has not been given an official release, so we should not say it will be 2024 unless a reliable source confirms that. For all we know, it could be early 2025 or anytime before Part II releases. For the cast order, I don't believe it is helpful to repeat the "Films" and "Television series" headers as it is unneeded repetition. If we wanted to go by release order (which we can't just yet for Penguin), we can simply evade those headers and just list the project titles for simplicity. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:17, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Right, if the Cast and characters section is to be ordered by release, then the "Film" and "Television" headers become irrelevant in that section, since they would only be there to explain why the order is not by release and that they are grouped by the type of media. —El Millo (talk) 18:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with that as well removing the "Film" and "Television" headers. - (a)nnihilation97 (talk) 15:06, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I've enacted the change to the infobox to use the media franchise one and removed the "Films" and "Television" headers from the cast section in my sandbox. I can make the update if everything looks good to you guys. Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:46, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm on board with the update. —El Millo (talk) 05:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Given it has been four-to-five days since the last responses and it was agreed upon the changes to alleviate the raised concerns, I have now implemented the revamp with the most recent version of my sandbox work, feeling it is now fully ready. Trailblazer101 (talk) 05:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

@(a)nnihilation97: I have reverted you twice now for reimplementing the year headers in the cast section as you seem to have ignored the consensus here for your own. Penguin's 2024 release simply is unconfirmed so we can't state that. It was agreed upon changing the headers to simply use "Films" and "Television series" or the years one, as a one or the other approach, and since the years don't work here, the medium one should remain. Please don't change this again without bringing up any additional points you deem necessary here, as to avoid an edit war. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

But who else agreed with you, Trailblazer101 on this page to include "Films" and "Television series" besides you? The consensus was no headlines. Just to avoid an edit war. - (a)nnihilation97 (talk) 17:36, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

There should be headers to order the cast and characters section, without those, it would be unorganized. Since the years cannot apply here as I have already explained to you, the "films" and "series" were agreed upon. We were discussing above if the years remained, the "Films" and "series" would be irrelevant, though that is not the case here. El Millo agreed that the "films" and "series" headers should remain. This clarification was given later at the sandbox editing. Trailblazer101 (talk) 21:45, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

The sandbox editing isnt on the talk page. So how would any other editors would know this? This isnt your page so not everything goes your way. - (a)nnihilation97 (talk) 18:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

I pointed you to that sandbox before and it was part of this discussion process. There needs to be headers, and as explained repeatedly, the years simply do not work. Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:24, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

But this is not your page, this is a page for all editors to edit. - (a)nnihilation97 (talk) 19:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

That is true. And it is best practice for cast and characters sections to have a header. The years headers simply do not work as there is no concrete order for them given Penguin has no release date (which you continually added as being 2024 despite no sourcing). Also, many changes you have made since the updates were enacted have been unexplained, which is why I reverted them, and does not aid in the community collaboration when you do not explain your edits. Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Publishing to main space

Why has this page not been published yet? We have already published a article for the new DCU, and there hasn’t even been any releases in that franchise yet, but this franchise has already released a film. Plus The Penguin has already started filming. Jstewart2007 (talk) 23:49, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Because per WP:FILMSERIES, a film series should not receive its own article until it has at least three installments that have been released. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:54, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Forgot to address the DCU, that article exists because there was special consensus for it to be moved out of draftspace early. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:01, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

So once The Penguin TV series releases we can publish to the main space, because The Batman and The Riddler: Year One have already been released. Jstewart2007 (talk) 17:16, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

No, The Riddler: Year One is just a tie-in novel, not an installment. We need at least three installments (films and/or series). Once Part II releases, this draft could in theory be moved, presuming it has enough coverage to warrant a separate article. It will be a while before that happens. Trailblazer101 (talk) 17:28, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

It should not be moved as there has only been one actual "The Batman" film and one TV spin-off series. That's not much of a franchise. The DCU has gotten far more significant coverage as a franchise on its own to warrant an article this early, whereas The Batman franchise has not yet. Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:55, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for answering me. Jstewart2007 (talk) 01:34, 24 May 2023 (UTC)