Help talk:IPA/Basque

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Maskarada (carnival of Soule) needs to be verified. — kwami (talk) 17:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Done. Akerbeltz (talk) 17:48, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Same mistake in San Adrian (tunnel). I don't want to 'fix' in case the author knew what they were doing. (There was a third w the same error, but I forget where.) — kwami (talk) 21:37, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Done. It's relatively simple - orthographic s is /s̺/ and orthgraphic z is /s̻/. It only gets complicated if someone adds IPA who insists of using their own dialect, in many of which they have merked under /s̻/ or /ʃ/. Interdental /ð/ is also non-standard though colloquially widespread in some areas. Phonemically, just go for bdg. Akerbeltz (talk) 21:45, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay, that was probably it. I thought perhaps some place names were irregular. — kwami (talk) 06:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Where are the examples?

Most of the examples are missing, and /d/ has got two examples :S In standard Basque there isn't /z/, may be in French Basque. But when does it happen and which phoneme does it replace, z /s̻/? Do they distinguish /s̺/ and /s̻/? What about /h/? Is it a real aspiration or is it like in French? Larrazabal is not pronounced [larazabal] but [laras̻abal]. I don't know how common are the digraphs dd and tt. I found some words with dd and tt; edder (nice), kuradde (encouragement), kuraddea kendu (to discourage) and gelatto (small room, from gela), kuttun (favourite, beloved), kotxetto (small car, from kotxe). Also, the word Xiismo is more a loan word for a religious practice, it is akin to Portuguese xiismo, Catalan xiisme, Spanish chiismo, English Shia islam. I reckon native words should be preferred, it is a language isolate and most of its vocabulary/lexicon is from unknown origin.

http://es.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wikcionario:Vasco:Lista_de_palabras You can use any of those words for the examples. JaumeR (talk) 20:49, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

You're right that the choice of examples is a little odd.. I'll see if I can find some better ones that I can ref. h in Northern dialects is just that, /h/. As for s/z/x mergers, we don't have to deal with that here. This page just lists the phonemes as a whole though we could if we wanted to list them as footnotes but I think that kind of info is best put on a phonology page. We also don't have to say how common exactly dd / tt are. On the whole, there are relatively few words that contain organic dd/tt (you missed onddo) but depending on the dialect, the outcome of expressive palatalisation can be tt/dd/tx etc so in that environment the phonemes will be common. Akerbeltz (talk) 23:13, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I've added few things:

• /eu/ and /oi/; euskal, euskadi and doinu (midday).
• semiconsonants [w] and [j]; gauezko (nocturnal), gauean (at night) and ekaiezko (material), teiu (dirty), Leioa, etc.
• There are also other diphthongs mainly from loan words, but i haven't added them
• If we add /y/ for Souletin dialect, shall we add long vowels for other dialects; /a:/, /e:/, /o:/, /i:/, /u:/. And also Souletin contrasts /p t k/ with /pʰ tʰ kʰ/.
• I have a doubt about ‹j› [j, ʝ, ɟ, ʒ, ʃ, x]. [x] is more common in the Spanish Basque Country, however I think some words and names can also be pronounced as [j ~ ʝ], Joseba, Jon, June? Can ‹j› be pronounced both [x] and [j ~ ʝ] in Standard Basque (Batua)?

JaumeR (talk) 20:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok, can we slow down?

• I know of no description that says Basque has dipthongs. Where are you getting them from?
• Basque has no semiconsonants; vowels can either be glided or separated by hiatus depending on the dialects. Again, where are you getting this from?
• This IPA table is supposed to be the key to IPA transcriptions of Basque words on Wikipedia, it does not have to cover every last allophone. Thus I'm not sure we need the long vowels; the most likely thing to be transcribed are place-names and suchlike, for which we need /y/ and possibly the aspirated consonants but not the long vowels. At this stage anyway.
• No offense but I get the feeling you're making these statemens based on your own variety of Basque. Going west to east, (i.e. Bizakaia to Zuberoa) j is realised as follows: /dʒ j χ~x j ɟ ʃ ʒ/; well documented in the literature.

Akerbeltz (talk) 21:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but what about the only standardisation about Basque, Batua Basque. It is based on the Spanish Basque country and there are /ai/, /ei/, /oi/, /au/, /eu/. I don't know what it says about i and u being semiconsonants, but how Basque people pronounce teiu, i think would be similar to Portuguese meio and Catalan iode.

euskal, Euskadi, euskara, Europa are pronounced the same as Spanish /eu/.

euskara in standard basque (batua); euskera, eskuara and üskara in dialectal Basque. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JaumeR (talk • contribs) 22:59, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Listening to yourself is not a scientific approach. Secondly, phonology is one thing Batua deliberately did NOT touch. And there are northern features, remember the controversy of Herria vs Erria? So on that basis, I'm afraid I'll revert most of your additions and add citations for those forms that should be in the table. You might want to check WP:OR, "listening to yourself" falls under that but I'm assuming you meant to help :) Akerbeltz (talk) 23:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but I know about Iberian languages and dialects. It was a mistake to add [j] and [w] for Basque.

JaumeR (talk) 17:00, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

S Z X

Suggestion: Batua, H is initial & intervocal only; B D G are always stops; X is Shed S as Shred, Z as in Said; TX as in chick; TS as in Trick; TZ as in Dotes. Pays basques has Gascony as a neighbour; Pais vasco has Galice & other Romance tongues as neighbours,with their underlay of Gaulish phonemes.AptitudeDesign (talk) 09:35, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

J

Why do some users constantly change the pronunciation of <j>? And also does <j> in Standard Basque include several pronunciations depending on the case? I can discern several pronunciations for this letter within the Basque dialects, but I am not too certain which variant is the most recommended... — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 15:39, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

In formal contexts (for example in an encyclopaedia, as it is the case), the only standard pronunciation for the letter <j> (ruled by Euskaltzaindia) is generally /j/. There are two exceptions in which other pronunciations are also ruled as acceptable:

• some words only used in Hegoalde (such as jertse, jipoi, jira) can also be pronounced /x/, and
• intervocalic <j> (such as garaje, ijito) can also be pronounced as /x/ (Hegoalde) or /ʒ/ (Iparralde).

But those two exceptions are listed as a secondary non-preferable options — in formal contexts and for standard Basque, the preferable pronunciation (and the only accepted by Euskaltzaindia for such context in most cases) is /j/. For more details on the standard pronunciation ruled by Euskaltzaindia, see rule 87, on standard Basque formal pronunciation. --Xabier Armendaritz^(talk)

Thanks for your reply. Do you think we should improve the note about /j/ with this information? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 04:53, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

You're right, thanks for your suggestion. I've added some more info — I don't think any more detail is needed there, but feel free to add data if you think that it would improve the text. --Xabier Armendaritz^(talk) 16:35, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

"Ladder" for /ɾ/?

How did we get here? Is there anything better? -- Categorically Not (🗪) 05:19, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean? Please explain your problem. Nardog (talk) 07:48, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

We should use hottest for the alveolar flap (in all of our guides). The orthographical ⟨r⟩ (well, ⟨er⟩ to be exact) in ladder that stands for a postalveolar [ɹ] (in rhotic dialects such as GA) or silence (in non-rhotic dialects such as Australian English, or some Southern American English) in this kind of examples is the problem, AFAICS. Sol505000 (talk) 20:11, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

I would use atom before hottest but in any case I'm interested in what the OP's problem was. Nardog (talk) 00:37, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Stress mark

@Akerbeltz: Nice job shooting the messenger. Have you gone through all of the relevant articles and added the stress mark there? Doesn't appear as though. So I'm afraid I have to revert you here. We need to achieve a consensus here and then go through the articles. For the millionth time, "Again, if the language you're transcribing has such an IPA key, use the conventions of that key. If you wish to change those conventions, bring it up for discussion on the key's talk page. Creating transcriptions unsupported by the key or changing the key so that it no longer conforms to existing transcriptions will confuse readers.", per MOS:PRON. Sol505000 (talk) 14:01, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Just gonna add, some discussion has been taking place here at the ANI. Erinius (talk) 21:54, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I have a few more things to point out. Firstly, as added to this guide by @Akerbeltz:, Basque stress/pitch-accent patterns differ regionally. Hualde (2007) "The Standardization of the Basque language" says that "For virtually all speakers, euskara batua does not have contrastive word-accent" (and that local stress/accent patterns are being eroded by standard influence) and Standard Basque: A Progressive Grammar says that the Basque Language Academy hasn't issued any recommendations about accentuation. The article Basque language mentions some recommendations by the Euskaltzaindia (which also include word-initial stress in plural forms) but there's no accompanying inline citation.

It seems to me that including stress in this guide would mean choosing Standard Basque patterns over those of the different Basque dialects, and word-accent in Standard Basque seems predictable and non-contrastive. This isn't to say that we shouldn't use Standard Basque patterns in IPA transcriptions, and I'm glad that the guide actually mentions stress now, but it's something that should be discussed at least. The decision to mark stress in Basque transcriptions isn't as obvious as it would be for some other languages. Erinius (talk) 23:22, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Gonna add on some more. I was undecided earlier but now I'm more in favor of including stress, following the Euskaltzaindia's recommendations. MOS:PRON recommends using national/international standards for transcriptions, and euskera batua certainly is influential and seen as "correct". At the very least, this guide should mention stress/accent patterns, which it didn't do before @Akerbeltz's edits. Erinius (talk) 23:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

There's a short write-up on their website, but only in Basque, I can't find a Spanish or English version but the main pattern described is that in section 4, look for the underlines in the second syllable of each example. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:36, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! That's a good source. I don't think it matters that it isn't in English or Spanish, I was able to translate it into Spanish with Google Translate, and there's no rule against non-English sources anyway. Erinius (talk) 21:11, 16 July 2022 (UTC)