Help talk:IPA/Spanish

ɣ (Voiced velar fricative) links to ɰ (Voiced velar approximate)

As says in the title. I am unfamiliar with how to properly edit Wikipedia pages, and the attempts to figure it out were unsuccessful.

Thank you to whoever fixes it! Neverbeentocincinatti (talk) 16:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

There's nothing to fix. [β, ð, ɣ, ʝ] are more commonly approximants so they link to the articles about the approximants. Nardog (talk) 16:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Coda realizations of /p, t, k/as [β, ð, ɣ]

I came across some articles, namely Tucson but also some others, where they indicate the Spanish IPA pronunciation of words bearing coda /k/ as [ɣ] as a general rule for standard Spanish. I disagree with this notion, specially if it is prescribed as a rule for the standard variety. The reference used for this (Hualde 2005) mainly focuses on the Iberian standard variety based on northern Spanish pronunciation, where this lenis pronunciation does take place natively (and with the author being Spaniard himself). However this is not the case for Latin America, where coda /k/ is strictly realised not as an approximant or fricative but always as plosive. There are some sources regarding this from Latin American countries noting this pronunciation, on both formal and informal contexts, from Mexico down to Chile and Argentina. The same applies for /p/ and /t/. Many Spanish-speaking users from the region have also shared this issue regarding IPA pronunciations with this kind of lenis feature present on some articles, that they do not reflect standard practice aside from features that cater to Iberian practice. 38.25.30.164 (talk) 19:06, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Hualde (2005) is in no way confined to Castilian standard (the very page talks about realizations in Caribbean dialects), and the word-internal neutralization between /p, t, k/ and /b, d, ɡ/ seems well documented and uncontested (e.g. Campos-Astorkiza 2018:169–70). What are those "sources" attesting the lack of the neutralization (or consistent realization of the neutralized phonemes as voiceless plosives?) across Latin America? Nardog (talk) 08:02, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

voiced /θ/

¿why is the voiced realization of /θ/ shown as [θ] instead of [ð]? Brawlio (talk) 20:31, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Because ⟨ð⟩ commonly represents the approximant realization of /d/ in transcription of Spanish. Even in narrow transcriptions that mark the voicing of /θ/, the voiced allophone is usually transcribed with ⟨θ̬⟩. But this key no longer marks the voicing of /s, f/ so there's no reason to mark the voicing of /θ/. Nardog (talk) 20:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

⟨r⟩ after /θ/

i believe the help page says ⟨r⟩ after /θ/ in a word like lazrar would be [ɾ], but i was wondering whether it's actually pronounced as [r] and wasn't mentioned because its occurrence is as uncommon as i think it is. it seems like it could go either way since it would be [r] with seseo or [ɾ] with voiced /θ/ like fricative /d/ Brawlio (talk) 21:26, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I think the [r] vs [ɾ] footnote's just slightly off. After a heterosyllabic consonant, only [r] appears. [θ] can't form an onset cluster with [ɾ], so lazrar must have [-θ.r-]. I don't have immediate access to the English version of Hualde's The Sounds of Spanish, but the Spanish version explains this. And /l, n, s/ are just the most common consonants for [r] to appear after.

I'm not sure how I'd rewrite the footnote, but maybe something explaining that only stop phonemes + /f/ can form onset clusters with /l/ or [r] would work; that's how it's explained in the Spanish version of (Hualde 2005) in section 4.3.2. Or you could list out all the consonant phonemes, or even list out the different letters that represent these phonemes as the DPD does.

And yeah, -zr- must be extremely rare word-internally in Spanish, in the DLE lazrar is the only word that has it. Erinius (talk) 00:09, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

i see, the DPD link you shared provides the example of Azrael pronounced with a [r] Brawlio (talk) 03:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

⟨r⟩ after /x/

⟨-jr-⟩, such as in lojro, is another rare word internal sequence that the help page seems to be implying is pronounced /xɾ/ but i'm not sure whether that's accurate Brawlio (talk) 18:01, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Based on spelling I'd assume /x.r/, since typically Spanish is described as having only /b d g p t k f/ before the tap in onset clusters - but, as that dictionary page mentions, lojro is related to locro, a loan from Quechua which would have the tap - and in this cooking video the host pronounces it once, with a tap, at like 7:03. Erinius (talk) 05:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

his pronunciation at 6:55 kind of seems like more of a tap, while i think his pronunciation at 7:03 is a little bit more ambiguous. perhaps it's the proximity to the /x/, which i think may be more of a [χ~ʀ̥] realization, which may be expected given the possible quechua influence. but when listening at 0.25 speed, i'm not so sure it's his /ɾ/, but perhaps not quite his /r/ either. definitely need more data Brawlio (talk) 18:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I think this discussion would be more relevant to Spanish phonology. It won't affect more than a few transcriptions linking to this guide, and there are already thousands of them. Sol505000 (talk) 10:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd be surprised if it affects even a single transcription to be honest. Erinius (talk) 04:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)