Help talk:IPA/Turkish

Discussions before the split can be found at Help talk:IPA/Oghuz languages/Archive 1.

ɑ vs a

There are a lot of articles that transcribe Turkish /a/ as ⟨ɑ⟩. Unless we use a bot to fix all these, it might make sense to mention ⟨ɑ⟩ here until people go through ~700 articles to change ⟨ɑ⟩ to ⟨a⟩. Thoughts? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 05:44, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

There are only ~120 articles currently using ⟨ɑ⟩. I can fix them if you want, provided ⟨a⟩ is the established transcription of this vowel. Nardog (talk) 05:48, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

The vowel chart at Turkish phonology has it as a central. With this source in mind, though, there may be alternation between the two. Hmmm... — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 16:04, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

So I just checked some works about the inventory of Turkish but none of them used ⟨ɑ⟩. I think we can safely assume ⟨a⟩ is established. Nardog (talk) 13:18, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Good thinking. Let's remove uses of ⟨ɑ⟩, then. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 21:03, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

 Done. Nardog (talk) 16:42, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Audio files

Does anyone have objections to audio files being added to this template to make it easier for people who are not fluent in the IPA alphabet? Hyacinth (talk) 02:14, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

@Hyacinth: No, go ahead and add them if you can. It'd be a big improvement. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 19:10, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Though we need example words before we add the audio files. The absence of the former is a major omission in my view, regardless of the recordings. Can someone take care of that? Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 22:05, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

I agree. The chances are the actual sound system of Turkish does not realize the sounds listed exactly like our audio exemplar for each IPA symbol. Using actual pronunciations of Turkish words, in the same vein as our Swedish key, would be far better. Nardog (talk) 13:51, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

@Nardog: Yes, and I thought @Hyacinth: meant adding audio files of actual Turkish words, rather than just linking to the audio samples that can be easily found in voiced bilabial stop etc. That I'd support. The current state of the guide - not so much. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 19:19, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

What are the objections to audio files of letters/phonemes being added to this template? If the Turkish phoneme varies from the IPA symbol used to transcribe it then that is more readily noticeable when the comparison can be made without opening multiple pages. If the difference between the Turkish phoneme and the IPA symbol is consistent/universal among Turkish speakers then the discrepancy may be indicated by adding a more accurate phonetic transcription in addition to the preexisting automatic assignment of IPA to Turkish letters. If the difference is due to different accents within Turkish speakers then a help page like this seems like a great place to make note of regional and other differences that don't always fit the standard automatic assignment of IPA symbols to Turkish letters. Why leave out information that could help people on a help page? Hyacinth (talk) 03:07, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Because phonemes are not sounds, while files like File:Voiced bilabial plosive.ogg are demonstrations of sounds. Even though none of our language-specific IPA transcriptions except the ones for English are completely phonemic, they are nonetheless broad phonetic transcriptions. So to use e.g. File:Voiced bilabial plosive.ogg as a demonstration of German [b] would be inappropriate because [b] is closer to File:Voiceless bilabial plosive.ogg in some contexts, though not in others. One expects a similar degree of variation in any language, and there's no reason to assume Turkish is an exception. Nardog (talk) 12:51, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Voiced Palatal Lateral Approximant

/ʎ/ is an important sound (if it's used in place of /l/ or vice versa, the mistake is obvious especially when it's at the end of a word), yet it's mentioned neither on this page nor the Turkish phonology page. The page about L explains the rule. Another resource on that. If a word contains /ʎ/ instead of /l/, [1]'s definition says "ls are pronounced softly" ("l'ler ince okunur"). /ʎ/ is mostly used in foreign loanwords (e.g. "alkol", "gol". Compare these to "yol", "bol"). Tik41K (talk) 15:00, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

It seems that what you're referring to by ⟨ʎ⟩ is what this guide and most sources transcribe as ⟨l⟩, and your ⟨l⟩ is our ⟨ɫ⟩. As Turkish phonology describes, /l/ is palatalized postalveolar (= alveolo-palatal) and /ɫ/ is velarized dental. Wiktionary's transcriptions of alkol, gol, yol confirm this. While ⟨ʎ⟩ may indeed be preferable to ⟨l⟩ from a cross-linguistic point of view, literature as far as I've looked prefers ⟨l⟩, so I would be circumspect about using ⟨ʎ⟩ unless there are sources that use it. Nardog (talk) 15:19, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for taking your time to explain it to me, that resolves my question; I didn't notice there were two ls in the list. Tik41K (talk) 09:08, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

additions

Firstly I'd like to thank the editors for their work on creating this page. I'm no means an expert on the subject, but according to a source I have found there are couple of things needed to be added on the page. Firstly, vowels in the Turkish alphabet can be lengthened, without any "^" or "ğ". For example, "e" in the "memur" and "tecil" are not an "e" but an "e:". I think this is something important that should be mentioned.

Apart from these there are transcriptions that contain ɛ, ø, ɑ, w, and ʐ, which lack on the page.

in Turkish, published by TÜBİTAK researcher about IPA Turca--Gogolplex (talk) 12:41, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

tj

From https://www.laits.utexas.edu/phonology/turkish/turk_dorsal_pal6.html tj is used instead of t whenever it's used word-finally or in a syllable with a front vowel (the latter is just like kj, gj).

Other than "not a phoneme", is there any reason not to add this?Tik41K (talk) 14:01, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

im gonna add new sound files

for these:

β vücut[1] like vase, but with both lips

f far food

ɡ gam[2] ago

ɲ engin[5] canyon

ŋ yangın[6] wing

ʒ jilet leisure

z----Modern primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 20:12, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

these:

"Gam" sözcüğünün söylenişi.

"Jilet" sözcüğünün söylenişi.

"Vücut" sözcüğünün söylenişi.

"Yangın" sözcüğünün söylenişi.

"Engin" sözcüğünün söylenişi.

"Far" sözcüğünün söylenişi.

yes----Modern primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 20:57, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

finished. also there is "eğri" and "torbalı" words that still need sounds. i didnt see them when i started. but.. now i feel lazy. maybe another time im gonna add sound for them..----Modern primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 21:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

i wont add sound anymore in near time probably, hello there. ----modern_primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 20:49, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Missing Turkish vowel, IPA ø

As mentioned above under #additions, could the vowel ø or the appropriate other vowel be added to this page Help:IPA/Turkish in acknowledgement of its use in the pronunciation of the name Mehmet_Oz? It would be helpful to have a linguist with knowledge of Turkish pronunciation who could verify the appropriate sound. The vowel pronunciation chart is here: IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio. For comparison, that IPA symbol appears in short and long forms in Danish: Help:IPA/Danish. Bruce Esrig (talk) 11:04, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

It appears ⟨ø⟩ was unilaterally changed to ⟨œ⟩ in 2019 by User:Anlztrk (which is a no-no per MOS:PRON, but what happened happened). Turkish phonology says the phonetic quality is midway between the cardinal vowels these symbols represent except word- or phrase-finally, in which case it is closer to the latter. We should probably survey the literature and see which one is more common and stick to it. Nardog (talk) 13:16, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the precise phonetic quality of the Turkish vowel is [œ̝]. I changed the symbol ⟨ø⟩ to ⟨œ⟩ because that's how the phoneme is described by Zimmer & Orgun, and because of the fact that non-lowered [ø] sounds closer to /y/ to Turkish speakers. – anlztrk (talk) 13:50, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

File:Çivi.ogg

I'm no expert on Turkish, but it sounds to me like this file (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%C3%87ivi.ogg) is of "chilly". Not exactly like that, but certainly there seems to be an "l" sound in where there should be "v" sound. Google translate, for example, pronounces it with "v" sound. Polar Apposite (talk) 23:00, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Sounds [v] to me. It's clearly a fricative at the very least. Perhaps you natively speak a language where [l] and [ɮ] belong to the same phoneme? Nardog (talk) 06:41, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I natively speak English. How do you explain that in the audio on Google Translate it sounds like a "v" sound? Polar Apposite (talk) 00:58, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Huh? I'm saying the file also sounds like [v]. You either have a very poor audio output setup or are perceiving the frication to be noise (like breathing into the microphone) when it is essential part of the articulation. Nardog (talk) 03:25, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I have to agree with Nardog here. The pronunciation is perfectly representative of Istanbul Turkish and is the regular [v] sound in Turkish. Dialect variation in ‘çivi’ would only really be caused by substituting the first [i] with some other vowel anyway, which this sound file does not do. Uness232 (talk) 07:05, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't speak Turkish, so I am only guessing at the sound. In case I wasn't clear, what I meant was that on Google Translate it sounds like a "v" sound to me, while on the Wikipedia file it sounds like an "l" sound, and if the fault was with me, wouldn't they still sound the same, i.e. both "l" or both "v". Polar Apposite (talk) 23:07, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Or maybe Google Translate is saying it wrong? I had neglected that possibility? What do you think? Have you listened to it saying that Turkish word (c-cedilla then "ivi") Polar Apposite (talk) 23:15, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Google Translate is not wrong either. Your brain is failing to perceive the fricative in the recording as a fricative, likely because chilly is a word more familiar to you (and thus it thinks it's more likely) and the voice is slightly breathy. Our brains fill in auditory gaps (e.g. McGurk effect), just as they fill in blind spots. Nardog (talk) 01:46, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Adding the IPA for the entire word "kabak" and likewise for the other words.

I found, as a reader, myself wanting to see the IPA for the whole word "kabak" and not just the IPA for the "a" sound that the word is used to illustrate. If the IPA for the whole word cannot fit into the main article (I think it would be worth making space), surely it could fit into the page that contains the sound file for the word as spoken by a native speaker. Likewise I found myself wanting to know the English translation, which I found out later is "courgette". These two bits of info are useful for confirming, when you don't speak Turkish, with a Turkish native speaker that "kabak" is really a Turkish word, and that the right Turkish word is being referred to (with no need to rely on spelling out the word in English. For example, if you are trying to explain to a Turkish person that there is not vowel sound "barred u" in English, but there is in Turkish, for example in, "kis" (i has no dot, s has a cedilla), it helps, to be able to pronounce the word correctly and not just the vowel correctly, and if the Turkish person says, "winter" it helps to know that the "kis" in the Wikipedia article really does mean "winter" in Turkish. Polar Apposite (talk) 01:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

This is a page to explain to readers who clicked on transcriptions in articles what the symbols mean. It's not a page for helping you speak Turkish. Nardog (talk) 01:39, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Sure, and the page would do a better job of explaining the meaning of the symbols if the IPA for the whole word is given, along with the meaning in English of the word. I think it's common to see the whole word in IPA in this sort of table of phonetic symbols.

You could, surely, make the same argument against adding sound files, but they were added. And surely there'd be no harm in adding this information to the sound file pages? Polar Apposite (talk) 15:35, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

"English approximation" is confusing?

For quite a while, I thought 'kabak' was Turkish for 'father', because I thought "English approximation" meant "approximate meaning in English". I don't know how many other people got confused like that. Part of it was due to 'kabak' looking a bit like 'papa', in my case. Anyway, if you agree that it is a bit confusing, and could lead to a reader memorizing a number of wrong translations, as I did, how about changing the column heading to 'English approximate sound' or "nearest sound in English' or something like that? Polar Apposite (talk) 15:30, 8 August 2023 (UTC)