Help talk:IPA/Vietnamese

Some issues with Vietnamese transcritption

A couple ponderables: do we want to transcribe both ch and tr as stops, or as affricates? Currently they're mixed.

Do we want b and d as implosive, or glottalized? The former is graphically simpler, but implosive d interferes with tone marking in a lot of fonts.

Do we want final i, u as [ij, uw]? Final c, ng after o, u as [kp, ŋm]?

The tone transcription is fairly straightforward. Is it an adequate generalization of the dialects? Is using a tilde for dipping tone acceptable as a graphic approximation, since the correct IPA diacritic is not widely supported?

Do we want to transcribe CuyV as C[ʷj]V or C[wj]V?

kwami (talk) 02:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Since tr can be [c] in some dialects, I'd say we avoid it as a transcription for either. Then, to be fair, we transcribe both as affricates.

I'd argue for the implosives, though I wasn't aware of the way implosive d interferes with tones.

Are the [ij, uw] of final i, u different than the realization of English /i u/?

[kp, ŋm] seems like a valid representation. They are technically coarticulated, though hopefully that won't be an issue.

No comment on tones.

I don't like C[ʷj]V. I'm not even sure if C[wj]V is accurate. [[Vietnamese alphabet transcribes the front element of that as [i].

On a side note, ɉ shows up as a box for me so it def. shouldn't be used as a common transcription variant. If it corresponds to [ɨ] then we maybe should transcribe ư as [ɯ] and ươ as [ɰə]. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 06:40, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

One problem with [tɕ] for c: As a syllable coda, it is an unreleased stop. It's only in the onset that it's ambiguous. [c] allows us to keep the same symbol in onset and coda. I've seen [ʈ] used--for example by the orthography to IPA converter linked at the Viet phon. article--but it's relatively uncommon, perhaps because it doesn't occur in coda position.

[kp] is s.t. just strongly labialized [k].

[ij]: don't know. the diphthongization is supposed to be quite noticeable, but I've never had a good ear for Vietnamese.

For words like Nguyên, both the u and the y are semivowels before the nucleus of ê. I need to check if this only happens after velars, in which case we might be dealing with labiovelars followed by [j].

[ɰə] noted.

If we use [ɯ], then to be consistent we should probly use [ɤ]. However, besides these being less accessible / familiar symbols than [ɨ] and [ə], many phonologists argue that the distinctive feature is centrality rather than roundedness. kwami (talk)

I know you really wanted to create a parallel for the Polish and Hungarian IPA templates where orthography can be plugged in and IPA transcription can result, but if we have contextual allophones like that, we may not be able to do so.

While I'm not necessarily a fan of incorporating allophonic labialization into the key, I suppose we could use ʷ for both the strongly labialized velars and for the wjV sequences.

It seems odd to me when phonetic characters are decided along phonological criteria. I'm not so convinced about accessibility either since we've got the IPA characters underneath the edit box and all four characters are equally untypable. We don't need to make the system look nice and tidy. Heck, we could even use [ɰə] for ươ and [ɨ] for ư. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 17:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

[ʒ] or [z]?

Is it true that g (before e/i) is [ʒ]? I haven't seen that described for Vietnamese except as a possible allophone of /r/ in the South. Isn't it actually [z]? AlexanderKaras (talk) 03:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Different dialects have different conflations. [z] is unambiguously written <d>. <r> is [ʐ]. — kwami (talk) 06:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

What I'm asking though is if <g> is ever [ʒ]. There is no phoneme /ʒ/ to my knowledge. Isn't this rather [z]? AlexanderKaras (talk) 15:14, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

g before i (g before "e" does not exist in vietnamse language) is pronounced as [z] in north vietnamese dialect. In central and south vietnamese dialects it is pronounces as [j]. Please note, that all vietnamese dialects (north, central, south) are equal value and no dialect is better off than the others.Beautiful Bavaria (talk) 13:25, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Vietnamese diphthongs

Aren't all diphthongs falling in Vietnamese? The other material I've read on it (which is admitted not much) seems to suggest that. So Nguyễn would then be pronounced [ŋʷiə̯ˀn˧˥], correct? The method we currently have seems to suggest some are rising and some are falling. I'd just like to confirm that's right - AlexanderKaras (talk) 22:32, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

No. Cua (/kuɜ˧˧/) is one example where it doesn't fall (except in the esoteric Hà Tĩnh dialect). – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 19:20, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Are you two talking about the same thing? Alexander is talking about falling and rising diphthongs, not tones. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 11:10, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

I have just one remark about the pronunciation of Nguyễn. Sorry: Nguyễn is pronounced as [ŋwiẽn].Beautiful Bavaria (talk) 13:34, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

According to the following definitions:

What is a falling diphthong?

a diphthong (such as \ȯi\ in \ˈnȯiz\ noise) composed of a vowel followed by a less sonorous glide.

What is a rising diphthong?

a diphthong in which the second element is more sonorous than the first (such as \wi\ in \ˈkwit\ quit)

I would say all diphtongs in vietnamese language are of the category "falling diphtong".Beautiful Bavaria (talk) 14:52, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Remarks about the English approximations "cue" for example "chè" and "choose" for example "trà" in the section "Initial consonants"

The english approximations in both examples do not apply at all.

"cue" is pronounced as \ˈkyü\ (according to https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cue) respectively as \kjuː\ (according to https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/cue_1).

The pronunciation of example "chè" is definitely different to "cue". The example "CHè" should be pronounced rather as "CHair".

"choose" is pronounced as \ˈchüz\ (according to https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/choose) respectively as \tʃuːz\ (according to https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/choose).

The pronunciation of example "trà" is definitely different to "choose". The example "TRà" should be pronounced rather as "TRain".

I personally cannot find any english words really fitting the pronunciation with the both examples. In my opinion we should not force to find any english approximation for a word of a different language, in this case vietnamese, to english.

It does not make any sense.

If we do not find any approximation, so we should decide to let it be.

My proposal is: Remove the english aprroximations in both examples. Beautiful Bavaria (talk) 16:17, 29 October 2020 (UTC)Beautiful Bavaria (talk) 19:52, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

The IPA for the vowel ư is wrong

As a Vietnamese, the IPA for ư is NOT these:

Close back unrounded vowel (ɯ) Close central unrounded vowel (ɨ).

The CORRECT one is: Close central rounded vowel (ʉ).

I speak with a typical northern dialect, but in the southern dialect that sound is also not pronounced like these on the wiki either. How can I provide a proof? I am happy to provide an audio file of myself pronouncing it. Kevingb1 (talk) 18:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

How can I provide a proof? Through a reliable source. Nardog (talk) 00:55, 4 March 2024 (UTC)